is this too political?

[sublux]

I'll leave it up to the board master,...I was reading an article a few months ago talking about the economics of fishing.It said that the combined US inland fisheries departments spend nearly 6 billion dollars for improvements to the environment for fishing, land acquisition, stocking,studies etc. Sounds like a good chunk of money but I wonder how many people know in this nation that my state (Ma) has spend nearly 15 billion dollars (maybe as much as 21 before its over) for the "Big Dig" in Boston,....it was supposed to cost 2.3 billion which was considered much more than it should have,..and most of this big money pit is paid by federal (your) dollars,..so thanks, rest of the county, for helping our economy ,(although I'm a bit ashamed at all this),..its not a one party thing either,..plenty of Demo and Repubs involved ...some of our 1 and 2 employee contractors now drive big expensive cars and live in very big houses,..(remember a few years ago the nation found out we had spent 35 billion in the gulf war?),...lot of talk then that this was driving the nation to ruin,..yet quietly this gets spent on one relatively small project filled with all the boondoggleness and coruption that goes with these big programs,..OK so I'm in western Ma and not benefiting much from this money,..but I don't think its a case of sour grapes,..I do volunteer work for our state stocking program (I do atlantic salmon) and I see the real paid state guys really scrimp for every penny,..I have to say that I have developed some real respect for SOME Ma state workers,..I've seen these guys come in on Sun w/o pay to take down a building,..to save the lumber to build another,..Anyway,.I do fish Walleyes in the Ct river,..not the great fishery that you guys have,..maybe the Big Dig will collapse and we can improve some habitat with its spare change,....Again this is not a slam at any political party,..just wanted to put things in perspective,..I think your Midwestern Senator (Dirkston?) said something to the effect that a billion here and a billion there and it begins to add up to a lot of money..

[Juls_WI]

I'm not sure what your talking about at all. What is the Big Dig?

Thanks

Juls

[lk]

go to Boston and you will understand very quickly!! Alot of people were fired not long ago because of the corruption within it.

[sublux]

Well,.mainly its a project to improve traffic to Logan airport from Boston,..tunnels etc.

[I-Man]

sublux .. Thanks for the post & your views on the Dig. I've watched several hr long Docs on TV on it. Just think how much good that amount of Dig $$'s would do even if divided among 50 states! The Taxpayers are sure not gettin' much Bang for their Buck in Boston .. If I said anymore it would be too Political.

[sublux]

Hi I-man,
Glad it got some national TV coverage. I did some traveling across country this Spring and found out that few people I talked to had heard of it (Its the biggist Fed funded program ever)I think people may see these things on "20-20" or whatever, but think they can't do much about it, rsp if its not in their area.I guess I am guilty of this myself. Actually it didn't bother me until I tried to put in to perspective how much this really costs and what we could do with that money,..fish realted or otherwise,.. I remember an article that said a billion dollars laid end to end would go 3 1/2 time around the world,..

[cisco]

Hey, sublux, when ol' Sen. Everett Dirkson of Illinois made that statement you almost quoted, he was talking about millions of $$, not billions -- To wit:

Spend a million here, a million there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

My how times change. Old Ev would turn in his grave if he knew the billions spent today on questionable pork. A few million in cost overrun raise no eyebrows -- a few billion might provoke a comment or two.

And they just paid Randy Moss 19 mil$$ just to sign a contract. Then his "real" pay kicks in. Retirees had better hope sanity returns, or don't plan to live too long on fixed income.

[sublux]

Hi Cisco,
I just saw another analogy,..If you had 5 billion dollars in one thousand dollar bills,..tightly bound and stacked up in a column, it would be be 315 miles high,...since the space suttle stays in orbit at 240 miles it would have to steer around it..SO FAR "our" stack of $1000 bills for this project is over 900 miles,..I'm not sure money would solve all our fisheries problems but I'm pretty sure it could help some of them that are underfunded. I hpoe YOUR state has less slick politicians! (but where were the feds looking when they were asked again and again to give us more money?)BTW does your state at least return the money from fishing licenses to the sport/enviroment? Ours gives it to the general fund and only returns a % back,..

[s-bone]

Sorry but I'm with Juls, What is the "big Dig"?

[Tideye]

Sublux,
I have been out there and seen it. It must be the biggest road construction mess I've ever seen. I've seem several stories about this fiasco both national and local(boston). You are right I don't think they have exposed this near enough on the national news as you can tell from the fact that several responses dont know what your talking about. What a waste of money. We as Federal tax payers should all be outraged. I wonder how many other things like this are going on throughout the country?
I didn't think there were any walleyes in CT. At least thats what all the poeple I've talked to there have told me. I'm glad to hear you guys have eye's out there.
Oh, by the way CT has exellent beautiful countyside to fish within. Enjoy it and the eye's.

Jim

[I-Man]

>I'm not sure what your talking
>about at all. What
>is the Big Dig?
>
>Thanks
>
>Juls

Here some info Jules

http://www.bigdig.com/

[I-Man]

To put these highway improvements in the ground in a city like Boston
amounts to one of the largest, most technically difficult and
environmentally challenging infrastructure projects ever undertaken in
the United States. The project spans 7.8 miles of highway, 161 lanes
miles in all, about half in tunnels. All told, the CA/T will place 3.8 million
cubic yards of concrete – the equivalent of 2,350 acres, one foot thick
– and excavate more than 16 million cubic yards of soil. The larger of
the two Charles River bridges, a ten-lane cable-stayed hybrid bridge,
will be the widest ever built and the first to use an asymmetrical
design. It has been named the Leonard P. Zakim Bunker Hill Bridge.

The project also includes four major highway interchanges to connect
the new roadways with the existing regional highway system. At
Logan Airport, a new interchange will carry traffic between I-90 and
Route 1A as well as onto the airport road system. In South Boston, a
mostly underground interchange will carry traffic between I-90 and the
fast-developing waterfront and convention center area. At the
northern limit of the project, a new interchange will connect I-93 north
of the Charles River to the Tobin Bridge, Storrow Drive, and the new
underground highway.

At the southern end of the underground highway, the interchange
between I-90 and I-93 will be completely rebuilt on six levels, two
subterranean to connect with the underground Central Artery and the
Turnpike extension through South Boston. The interchange will carry a
total of 28 routes, including High Occupancy Vehicle lanes, and channel
traffic to and from Logan Airport to the east. A fifth interchange, at
Massachusetts Avenue on I-93, has already been substantially rebuilt
by the project. It will function as a part of the larger I-90/I-93
Interchange when the project is finished but today is already helping
improve Southeast Expressway traffic flow following early phases of
reconstruction.

The Central Artery project is public works on a scale comparable to
some of the great projects of the last century -- the Panama Canal, the
English Channel Tunnel (the "Chunnel"), the Trans-Alaska Pipeline.
Each of these projects presented unique challenges: The Panama
Canal confronted earthslides, malaria, yellow fever, and Central
American jungles. The Chunnel was dug from either end, 31 miles
apart, meeting at a precise point under the channel floor. The Alaska
Pipeline contended with vast distances, freezing temperatures, and
major environmental concerns.

The Central Artery project's unique challenge is the fact that it is being
built in the middle of a city. Work of the CA/T project's magnitude and
duration has never been attempted in the heart of an urban area, but
unlike any other major highway project, the CA/T is designed to
maintain traffic capacity and access to residents and businesses – to
keep the city open for business – throughout construction. Highway
projects of the 1950s and 1960s, when the interstates were first built,
gave very little consideration to the communities in the path of the
new roads, with disruption and dislocation the rule of the day.

Recognizing that failing to maintain Boston's economic viability during
construction would damage the city's competitive position for years to
come, project planners worked with environmental and other oversight
and permitting agencies, community groups, businesses, and political
leaders to create consensus on how the project would be built. The
process of keeping the city open and making certain that all affected
groups are treated fairly is called mitigation, and it takes up a fourth of
the project's budget.

Along with improving mobility in notoriously congested downtown
Boston, the Central Artery project was conceived to reconnect
neighborhoods severed by the old elevated highway, and improve the
quality of life in the city beyond the limited confines of the new
expressway. Apart from a 12 percent reduction in citywide carbon
monoxide levels, major project benefits include creation of more than
260 acres of open land, including 30 acres where the existing Central
Artery now stands, more than 100 acres at Spectacle Island in Boston
Harbor (where project dirt is capping an abandoned dump), and 40
more acres of new parks in and around downtown Boston. Clay and
dirt from the project are being used to fill and cap landfills throughout
the Boston area.

The project has been under construction since late 1991. As of April 1,
2001, final design is about 99 percent complete, construction about
70.7 percent complete. A bridge across the Charles River connecting
I-93 in Charlestown with Leverett Circle and Storrow Drive was
opened in the Fall of 1999. The I-90 extension through South Boston
to the Ted Williams Tunnel and Logan Airport will open in September
2002. The northbound lanes of the underground highway replacing the
elevated Central Artery open in November 2002, the southbound lanes
in November 2003. The entire project will be finished in 2004, including
demolition of the elevated highway and restoration of the surface. For
more information click to see our project schedule section.

[sublux]

actually the walleyes are mainly in Vt/Nh in the Ct River there,.there are some in the upper streaches of Ma,..I'm not sure if they are in the state of Ct...They tried to establish them in our big water here,..the Quabbin Res. which has good bass populations and noted for its Lakers and salmon with a fair amt of rainbows,...but for some reason they have not taken,..(we have some pretty good feeder streams and lots of gravel bottoms,..a fair amt of yellow and white perch,.. so I don't know what is the limiting factor for them,...

[Honest Ed]

Darn a I thought we have it bad with the "Mcnanightmare Terminal at Detroit Metro Airport". By the way how did the union officials come out on their "half" of pie? Corruption is not corruption until your caught. They know us wimps can't stick togetther enough to protect our monies and selves alone. Ironic but thats what we vote and work union, ya know? I feel for ya guy with every weeks union bill out of those checks, and our pocket.

[Are our priorities straight?]

Just think how many affordable housing units 21 billion could buy. Or how prescriptions it could purchse for elderly people. Or meals, etc. etc. Instead, they've tied up traffic in Boston for, what, 10-15 years already? By the time they finish, the increase in traffic will negate any improvements the project made. Let's call the Big Dig what it is...milking the system for excess profit.

[Al]

Another perspective....How about how much of that we could put towards the debt? Or maybe retroactively give us that middle class tax cut "The Slick One" promised in 92 instead of the retroactive increase? That same increase that hit seniors? And sorry, I can't let this slip, but housing is as affordable as it's ever been. Interst rates have been low since 90=91. We have a country full of people who have priority problems, not so much money problems. I know this is off the beaten path, but there was a time I worked with some folks who lived in these "affordable housing" areas. They never had money for food, clothes (they said) and always looked for assistance, but somehow they managed to keep having kids and a case of PBR, Colt 45, or Black Label in the frige. Many don't buy insurance for health, but buy cars, new cars with huge payments.

I've seen enough scams in the government projects as you say about the dig. It makes me sick. But we have a public that is conditioned to seek assistance at every turn. Big house, two car payments, a cottage somewhere, but then they want to get a grant for the kids to go to college because they (surprise) don't have the cash or credit left to wing it like some of the others have to. Am I Rambling, probably, but it's my belief that the only reason we have a wasteful government is because we have a citizenry that is , in a lot of the cases, just as bad .....both have their priorities out of kilter.

[I-Man]

Al .. I'll buy every word you said .. my feelings also!