2,700 jobs gone

[Marble Eyes]

This morning the Executives of AB Electrolux owners of a Refrigerator factory formerly known as Gibson and later White Consolidated informed the Employees of their Greenville, MI plant that in 2005 they would be shutting the plant down. Employees leaving the plant after the meeting were reported to be both in tears and livid.

Some jobs would move to Anderson SC, but the majority would move to a plant in Mexico.

And just to turn the knife a bit, Federal Mogal a Bearing producer is in discussions with the state about the possible relocation of their factory in St. Johns to South of the Border, St. Representative Alan Crosby was quoted as saying he wouldn't be a bit suprised if the discussion didn't include its Plant in Greenville, MI. That plant is Greenville's second largest employer with 310 full time employees.

[nafta]

At what point do people understand NAFTA is sending thousands of jobs south of the border and overseas but not creating any new jobs

[Marble Eyes]

There was an article in the local paper the other day that said that this move would effect the Greenville Area, would be equivilant to 250,000-300,000 jobs being lost in Detroit.

Greenville is a community of about 10 -12 Thousand.

[ChadM]

What is starting to happen now is that jobs are leaving Mexico for China. We are truely in a world economy.

$15/hr jobs let the US for $15/day Mexico jobs and now go to China for $7/day.

Now, just wait and see if they open up the sugar market. I live in Fargo and sugar beets are a huge industry. If CAFTA(Central America Free Trade Agreement) lets in more sugar the price will drop below the cost of production. This will shut down all the US sugar factories. The beet farmers will begin to raise other crops which will in turn lower those prices and it is just a vicious downward spiral.

[sevenmmm]

It is hard to imagine how this country will continue to grow without these higher paying jobs.

But there are some articles in the business papers that read of potential for labor shortages. They explain that as the baby boom generation retires and drops out of the work force, their jobs will be opened for the displaced workers. I don't see this absorbing all the lost jobs, but hope its true.

The one part of this changing economy that is real is; these people cashing Social Security and Pension checks do spend this money. Finding what they want might be a way to a good job or business.

[Marble Eyes]

Chad,
Live Savers in Muskegon MI moved to Canada last year becuase of the high price of American Sugar.

Can't win fer losing.

[t_man]

If there is one positive out of this issue, it is that management were upfront with their people and told them a year in advance. That is unusual and allows people to make life decisions

[MK]

Indiana is in the same boat. Lost somewhere near 100,000 manufacturing jobs in the past few years and these are jobs that will not return when the economy rebounds. We're also around the top of the list nationally for personal bankruptcies and home foreclosures. Anybody working in a manufacturing job should seriously look down the road for another occupation. Even a lot of people in the computer and information technology are out of work because the work is being outsourced to India and Pakistan. Its not coming back either.

I don't see any reason to be optimistic about the manufacturing sector in the states. Lots of reasons and everybody is to blame: Politicians of both parties selling out, unions demanding too much from companies, companies being strangled by lawyers and regulations, consumers demanding the absolute lowest prices even if it means selling out your neighbors job to save a couple of bucks, stockholders demanding unreasonable profits and dividends, etc.

Instead of Iraq, maybe we should just take over Mexico, make it a state and force the manufacturers down there to abide by the same labor and environmental rules that US companies have to follow. I bet these companies wouldn't be in such a hurry to head south.

I'm just concerned about what our kids will do for jobs 10 or 20 years from now. The next recession could easily turn into a major depression of 1929 proportions. We had trouble pulling out of this recent, relatively minor recession and the main stimulus that pulled us out was low interest rates. Everybody re-fi'd their home and a lot of people went right out and spent the money. Japan has been in a recession for the past 10+ years and interest rates are around 0%.

I don't really have any answers but I think that all of this "free trade" and "open borders" is making a trainwreck out of the US industrial and manufacturing sectors. Anymore, the WTO, World Trade Organization has more power over our economy than our own Congress.

Sorry for the long reply. I'll get off of the soapbox now.

[tjm]

Just remember this you Yamaha lolyalists and Mercury will be the nexed to go.

tjm

[Business Owner]

Perhaps the discussion should center on why it is so difficult to do business in this country.

[Marble Eyes]

In this instance it is because they can pay Mexican workers 4 dollars an hour! Their competitor has done it, so they feel the have to keep a market share.

But I do agree, workers comp./unemployment/local/state/Fed tax/ liability costs are rediculous.

The company said it needed to save 81 Million dollars per year.
That equates to 30 thousand dollars per employee in cuts, PER year.
Considering most of them made about that amount a year It was hardly a resonable expectation.

[llg]

Could the problem with big business, be greedy executives, 10 to 50 million dollar incomes?

[OUCH]

Ouch. Not to mention the lost tax base.

[sevenmmm]

Good soap box speech MK. Also think at some point in the future there will be "an adjustment". But not sure about 1929 type depression that conjures up images of soup lines and starving people willing to work for food.

This country still has a whole lot of wealth (more than any other country) and great potential for technological developement. Sure there will be some who lose out, but for many it may mean a more rewarding job in a different field. So it may be bad news now, but look to the bright side as many will wipe out their debts in bankruptcy, get an education, and start with a fresh outlook on life.

And one other thing, NAFTA is not a free-trade agreement. It limits the export of many products from the US.

[Drift Sock]

Losing high paying factory jobs is a tragedy for the people who lose jobs and the community in which it occurs.

But the fact is there are people who are willing to do the work for less, who live in other countries. This is because they are poorer than people who live in this country, on the whole.

And while the people who lose jobs are harmed, the rest of us who buy those products are benefited - because the price of them is reduced.

The overall effect of free trade is to increase the standard of living of not only Americans but the people with whom we trade. A more prosperous world is to everyone's benefit, not in the least because it makes for a more peaceful world.

If you don't like free trade, consider the alternative: high domestic prices, retaliatory tariffs by all the countries we do business with (resulting in less exports by us and a loss of jobs in our export industries), a stagnating economy, and ultimately we are all poorer, Americans and foreigners.

Remember the Depression was caused in part by passing of the Smott-Hawley tariff act, which discouraged trade and investment. Then it was prolonged by increased government regulation and increased marginal income tax rates.

It's a tough world - we have to compete in the world - and the way to do it is to keep our economy flexible, and to encourage investment and the creation of new jobs by keeping our labor laws and trade laws as free as possible.

DS

[YamahaOwner]

tjm,

Regarding your Yamaha comment.

Japan is far from a third world country that we are exploiting for jobs that pay 7 bucks/day or less.

Personally, I see Japan as a good world neighbor. So much so, that they've even moved some manufacturing here (Honda).

In fact, have you ever looked at the list of those countries supporting us in Iraq. I don't see Mexico or China on the list.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-10-23-country-support_x.htm

Very poor analogy in my opinion.

[rangerstorm]

Just my 2 cents,the people running this country will be able to live a stable life if there not reelected or reappointed high ranking positions and the people making decisions of moving jobs to other countries will be well taken care of before they retire or move on to let the next fill there pocket with money saved by reducing the payroll here in favor of a lower payroll somewhere else.The fact of the matter is every job that has been lost is because of money and the ones who decide still get paid.When I here a company say that to survive they have to be more profitable,when a company moves a company to Mexico,Canada,China or where ever,why doesn't management go live in the same conditions as the new workers they just gave jobs to.Paying heat,water,insurance,upkeep on a corporate headquarters can't be very profitable here in AMERICA.

[Another Yamaha Owner]

TJN, folks who decide to buy say, Yamaha or Suzuki outboards, do so because they perceive they are of a higher quality than say, Mercury. I take it it's your position that a "good" American would intentionally buy what they perceive is an inferior product so that jobs stay in America?

Let's take your illogical analogy a step further. Let's say in your area there are two hospitals - one is rural, operates within your community and employs hundreds within the same. The other is 30 miles away, though is a tertiary center with top notch technology. You need brain surgery to save your life, the neurosurgeon at hospital #1 was foreign trained and has only performed the procedure a few times. The neurosurgeon at hospital #2 is world class and recognized as an expert in this procedure. In all aspects, the services at hospital #2 are PERCEIVED to be superior.

Using your analogy, you're going to have your surgery at hospital #1 to save jobs - right?

[Huskie]

Business Owner,

You are correct in stating we need to understand why business' are inclined to seek our across the boarder labor. We also have witnessed numerous accounts of businesses paying their CEO's and other top officers totally ridiculous amounts, all on the backs of cutting labor costs. Kmart was one huge example of this.(they had other problems too, I am not being that naieve)

What most of us would like is BALANCE between higher CEO compensation/perks and the realities the rest of the world faces.

AS I see it, the trend toward gettin ght elowest labor possible will continue, until those countries receiving the work for their labors increase their standard of living to the point where they are earning more, and they in turn outsource. The entire world (except us) will increase their standards of living until finally, way down the road, our decreased standard of living will intersect with their increased standard of living, providing a level playing field. In the mean time, it is a very uncomfortable to be on the downward slope. I hope the big CEOS who are outsourcing for bigger profits rather than survival, relize that employees having their jobs and rates of pay cut will have less purchasing power,buy fewer products, resulting in the demise of their companies. They might just be cutting of their noses to spite their faces.

[ChadM]

Doesn't suprise me. Canada keeps smuggling sugar into the US in the form of molasas. They then extract the sugar and sell it. I am assuming (always dangerous) that Canada like Central America heavily subsidizes their sugar industry. There isn't a fair playing field.

[ChadM]

Some of the problem is that these are publically traded companines. That means the company is responsible to its shareholders which include your 401K. The company then has the duty wether right or wrong to maximize profits for its owners(shareholders). Now, if I own the stock I am all for the jobs going to the lowest bidder. But if I am one of the workers just the opposite.

The bigger issue here is that we are truely becomming a global economy. We no longer have a national border for doing business. Just think when you call your 1-800 tech support # for your ISP you are likly talking to someone in India.

[MK]

I believe that you and I have some of the same core beliefs but I see the outcome differently. Free and FAIR trade is good for the world and the US. Unfortunately, the labor force in the US will never be able to compete with child labor/prison labor/slave labor and peasant labor at $2.00 per day in many of these other countries. The regulatory and environmental restrictions on US factories are unheard of in most of these other countries. To me, this is where most of the inequity of the situation enters into the equation. Even if you ignore the difference in cost of labor, the indirect costs that come from the massive amount of regulations and legal challenges makes doing business profitably in the US difficult. We just cannot compete on such an unlevel playing field.

I think it will ultimately result in a lower standard of living in the US due to the loss of jobs and the shrinking of the middle class. I suspect that the middle class shrinking is already happening but people are using credit cards to live beyond their means. The piper just hasn't been paid yet, at least not with cash.

The shrinking middle class will put more demands on the ever increasing social safety nets resulting in tax increases to those still working, taking even more spending power out of consumers hands.

[Your all just cattle]

OK I have heard enough! You people just don't get it do you? You are cattle this country will milk you til its gone then put you out for slauter.
As long as everyone in this country has a different cause or a new band wagon to jump on the worse it will get! Lets face it 8 of 10 people are idoits. You have no idea what it takes or what it cost to maintain a company of these sizes. I'm a union I make over $38 an hour and get $26 of it on my check. Health care eats up alot these days. AS long as we have idiots giving people 10s of millions of dollars for there own stupidity this will never end here. 2 adults and 2 kids and I paid 65 thousand dollars in TAXES last year. When is it enough? We have open doors in this country but we don't care about the people. AS long as I can work hard and pay my taxes I'm good for this country then when I can't anymore they wont give a sh** because the next guy will pay. Everyday I see some much wasted goverment dollars and NO one wondering why. This country was not founded on the idea that Lawyers and our own goverment was out to get us all. YOU can take both the parties and stick them, we need a new voice. I'm sick of the Dem's and the Rep's they have trained us all this way and need to keep us at this status.

Flat rate taxes for a start, NO more handouts! A major probe into the insurance and health care, EVER dallor accounted for before its spent.
States want to build ballparks and new football stadiums but they cant afford to teach the kids in school, there is something wrong here.Everyone has all the answers but no one has the way to fix it. Your never going to get someone into office, they pick the biggest moron for each party and get them elected so that party has control.

This is where we are and what we are just a bunch of YES people.

[HEY]

MIFISH, yer baaack!

[Reels]

lol


<{{}}><

[Thomas Jefferson]

Oh I have a way to fix it, however I could go to jail without representation or due process for just thinking it. :)

And there is no way Jorge Delano Bush would grant me amnesty.

[jerry]

You can say thank you to Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and the rest of the Dems. for this one.....NAFTA RULES.

[Uncle Sam]

You might want to re-check your math. There is no way you paid $65,000 in taxes when you made $79,000. Nice try though....but your point is lost with that one.

On a side note, what type of union job do you have? Probably $38 hour to paint or bag groceries. Maybe that's the problem?

[Kevin B]

I know what those people at electralux are going through, I experienced it in 1973 as an assembly line autoworker (machinist). I was in my early 20s and single, but I sure saw the pain of the guys in their 40s & 50s - - knowing they would have no income in six months. I remember it like it was yesterday. The look on their faces told the whole story without saying any words. I remember the guy who trained me saying to his wife when she came to pick him up from work: "Now what are we going to do?" I'll bet not another word was spoken during that ride home.

In 1985, the meat industry had massive layoffs. Hit hardest were the meatworkers in Iowa. Anyone working in the steel mills felt the pain of lay-offs in the mid70s-early80s. In 1992 GM laid off 16,000 workers. 9/11 did not just decimate the airline workers, but it severly impacted the computer industry as well. My next-door-neighbor lost his job when the airline industry cratered two years ago. It was disheartening seeing a guy 47 years old with all that computer knowledge begging for a job as a grocery clerk. And despite the propaganda in the newspapers saying "The economy is turning around," I know better. I hope those folks at electralux will get some kind of severance pay.

[205]

Id say if they cant do their business here, dont just send the jobs overseas. I heard a Democrat a week or so ago make (cant remember which) a comment that I liked. Im an Independent and dont side with either. They both have their flaws. But this one I heard said that tax cuts are good if they are shared equally. Big business right down to us pee ons. BUT, the big American companies that want to ship 2700 jobs to Taiwan for example, should be taxed triple hard opposed to the companies that keep the jobs here. 18 dollars an hour here versus 2 dollars an hour there. And the product price stays the same here. These companies are making huge profits at the expense of our citizens livelihoods. Tax the XXXX out of these companies and give the breaks to the companies who keep the jobs here. And if you dont like that move your whole XXXX company over there. Just my 2 cents!

[Garvin]

Perhaps I don't see the full picture,..I'm wondering how this works. Everytime election comes around some people demand that no one should tax THEM ,...go after "the corporations." How does that help anything ? I thought the reason for a corp was to limit liability, and to protect from very high taxes in order for them to show profit to reinvest in their bussiness. It becomes an entity and then it is taxed at a lower rate, but the people who profit from the corp have to pay taxes on the profits if taken out. Now I know this creates problems of board of directors that give much too much money (IMO) to officers. But how does it help to tax corporations that makes widgets at a high rate. The corp has to make a profit and keep its stock value so,.. do they not just raise the price of widgets to you? Don't YOU ultimately pay for a higher corporate tax? The money given to admittedly overpaid officers and to stockholders are taxed as reg income or with stockholders as unearned income. I just don't see how fed tax of corps help. (?)

[DUH]

Wife works too DUMB***

[Your all just cattle]

Someone who gets it Thanks Gavin! We as americans NEVER want to except the responsibliy for the fact that WE are ruining our own country. WAY to much GREED and HANDOUTS for the average guy.We have the what can you do for me mentallity now, maybe we need to get back to the old days?

[luvtotroll]

A lot of very good points have been made here. The one thing that was touched on that I think is the most important is getting a handle on the governmant spending. There is so much waste and over spending that we could pay for most everything we needed with the money saved.
Most departments in my state do not have to account for every dollar spent each year, just the new money allocated that year.
Government unions are a one of the major problems for many cities and states. Why does working for the government qualify you for a higher pay rate than the private industry would pay for most of the jobs, complete job security, no or very little health care co-pay and a full pension on retirement. I know guys who mow the lawn at city parks that will retire at 55 on me.
Unfortunately this is a very large number of people and the politicians know that they will not be reelected if they try to end or change the unions. Hopefully we will get some people in office that will start to change this. Right now in my city the last mayor and the current county supervisor were arbitration lawyers on the side of the unions. It is no wonder that they keep getting more every year.
I know most union employees in the private sector do work hard and do their job well. On the other hand who enjoys going to places like the DMV or post office? How about the DOT truck driving 15 mph down the side of the highway with two guys sitting in the truck? Our DNR office and couty clerk office are only open from 9 to 4. How does that serve the people who pay the bills?
Until we get a handle on our elected officials we are going to continue to pay more and more.
This ties directly into the loss of jobs because the more money they need the more taxes and regulations they put on both the individual and the business. As stated very well above, corporations do not and will never pay taxes. We pay the taxes in the way of higher prices.
Wether you are conservative, liberal or in between, we all need to get more involved and hold people accountable for our money. 50% or less turn out to most elections is not helping us.
Sorry for the rant but this is a very big topic with me, especially since I just got my property tax bill. It is so frustrating to see all of the waste out there.

Best of luck to those employees who will be losing theirs jobs.

Scott

[Poke-Eye]

Drift Sock,
Most of your comments are very true except for the part where you state only the families involved in the layoffs suffer, the rest of us see the benefit of less expensive product. Your thinking here is severely flawed, IMO. The cost of these refridgerators and bearings for your new boat trailer will not go down and more than likely will go up as though these layoffs never happened. You as the end user will never see the savings in reduced manufacturing cost. Only the shareholders and the Board of Directors of these companies see the savings. This in turn means substantial increases in their own saleries for sitting on the Board, and the top 10 or 12 senior executive officers of the respective companies.

[bucko]

bucko Why do they only move the jobs and not company to mexico ?. some of the biggest,best corporations have there headquarters state side. a sad thing is united states make up 75% of the market and sale.

[kliph]

It`s never good when jobs are lost.But you could see it coming.
Since NAFTA and than China was let in the World Trade Organization and
gave most-favored-nation (MFN) trading status. India doing softwere
and tech work and more.
What do we get? Cheap VCR `s and other electronic appliances along with other cheap goods from
China and elsewhere. A friend of mine bought a VCR for $39.95, made in China.
I asked him If he would have bought one made in America if he could. He said yes.
I asked him even if it cost $150.00? He said no!
So, cheap goods gives us low inflation and less jobs,not a good trade.
It`s a world economy now. I don`t like it, but I have to except it.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/06/23/china/

http://www.indianembassy.org/US_Media/2000/march/clinton_lauds_mar_25_2000.htm

[hoping]

Why don't government employees have to put monies into social security? They have their own retirement fund as do class 1 railroads, and I don't know who else. I think it is mind boggleing that our own USA paid for employees side step social security for their own pension accounts.

I'm hoping that as a country we don't go broke.

God Speed!

[NAFTA]

NAFTA was supported by Clinton but it had to pass through a Republican senate and house which it did overwhelmingly, it did not get through a democratic house and senate when it was first proposed under Busch sr.,so both parties have this one in their lap and now theywant to expand it world wide which will futhur the job loss in America

[The Democrat]

I read an item on the AOL message board today about a company that's closing its plant and moving the jobs to Mexico because the state didn't give them enough subsidy money. The state offered $49 million but the company turned it down saying they needed $81 million, which amounts to $30,000 for each job. I'm pretty sure it's the same company, because $81 million divided by 2,700 is $30,000.

Washington State just gave Boeing $3.5 billion of incentives to keep 800 jobs here. That's over $4 million for each job.

I hope this doesn't sound partisan and get the thread dusted, but I'm getting tired of hearing the rich defended on the grounds they create jobs. This assertion is wearing thin, given the new trend in business of demanding that taxpayers pay the employees' wages.

I don't want to hear about rich people creating jobs anymore. If taxpayers pay the workers' wages, the taxpayers not the business owners should get the credit for the jobs.

Thank God for the small business people who create most of the jobs and still pay their own bills, as opposed to the big businesses that create few jobs and extort huge government handouts from the public.

[T. Hammer]

Wow, I agree with you!

[Your all just cattle]

Dem

I see your point, But the main thing the states see is money! I live in MN. we have 3M here they have alot of people working there. Our state would do anything to keep them! Say they have 5000 people working at an average of $40000. the state not only gets the 5000 property tax @ say $2000 but the state tax at 5%

5000 times 2000 = $10,000,000. in prop. tax
$40000 a year times 5% tax times 5000 people guess what = $10,000,000. more!!

I dare anyone out there to add all your block together on the amount of prop. tax you pay! Mine is $2900.00 times 51 houses in (sub div.) THATS 147,900. a year for one little sub div.! This doesnt include the taxes payed for everyones jobs.WHERE is all this money going? Our city has a pop. of 3500 people, the taxes dont cover the water,ele., gas, trash. I cant see how it takes even 50 thou. to run our little sud. div a year! That would leave The $100,000. to the state and county!

[Original Buckeye]

Another way tha Canadians are "smuggling" sugar is to add some sort of flavor (i.e. fruit extracts)and import as drink concentrate. It is then further refined into two separate products....sugar and flavorings.

A big share of the sugar used in food processing is actually corn syrup.

[Tim S]

You can add that our way of life in my opinion is far more pleasant with small business and small farms, etc. My perception is that big business and large corperations create a bottom line, dog eat dog mentality.

God Speed!

[Fin]

I've read all these posts and it amazes me no one has mentioned the entertainment industry. Television,movies,music,SPORTS this combined has to be the highest paid industry there is and we all support it. When Nike gives a 18 year old high school basketball star an 80 million dollar contract and stars are paid 20 million plus to make a movie theres something wrong here. We are all complaining about taxes and high cost of living, jobs leaving the country etc. But we still support these industries. I have nike shoes watch movies and television buy CD's go to football and baseball games. And just like most of you B@#@$ about the high cost 5.00 beers 40.00 admission heck paid 60.00 for my tennis shoes but yet we still do it. I don't have any answers but it seems to me like it was said in an earlier post we ARE all idiots! I tell you this I am Going to start thinking more about my purchases.

[Terroreyes]

Just read the article. http://www.freep.com/news/mich/fridge17_20040117.htm

Sounds like pure greed in the order of cheap labor. The company even admits it. Sad. I think it's time the federal government starts penalizing companies for shipping jobs over to other countries. Slap some big tarrifs on their products coming back in to the country. Big enough to more than offset the money they are saving in wages.

One other question. What's going to happen in the future with all the Mexicans flocking to the U.S. for good paying jobs while those companies are shipping jobs over to Mexico for cheap labor? Seems like our manufacturing sector is going to regress while Mexico's progresses until they hit some kind of equilibrium. U.S. wages drop, while Mexico's rise. Bottom line...... we lose.

[br][div align="center"][br][center][br][font color="#3300CC";font face="Roman"; size="+1"][br][br]Terror-[font color="red"; size="+3"; font face="webdings"] NN

[perplexed]

Being from the Grand Rapids, Michigan area myself I thought that I would add this little bit myself. It's all about the mighty dollar! Yes, the people made around 15 bones an hour there in Greenville. Send it to Mexico and they make 40 bones a week! They claim thaty they will be spending X amount to build a plant down there but then in the same breath they have to spend 26 million a year to import these refrigerators back accross the border.Gotta run so will finish this later....The Dog

[Long Run]

Thinking ahead they are,not having to pay the Health care,Property tax,pensions are a very large chunck! Over the next ten years this will save them Millions! I have a very hard time blaming any company for not wanting to pay Billions in health care and insurance in this country. SAD but TRUE, these are the times we live in!

[The Democrat]

How many kids live in that subdiv.? Public schools cost $5000 to $6000 a year per student. That's where most of your property tax goes. Also pays for street maintenance, parks and athletic fields, libraries, and other things. I pay about 3K a year prop. taxes and I'm not getting ripped off. Universal public education is the best idea America ever had and is what made this country a superpower.

Love your handle, you're right we're all cattle just being herded around inside the Big Machine.

[The Democrat]

Small business people are over burdened and under appreciated. We ask them to do a lot of things without pay for the good of society, collecting sales taxes being an obvious example.

As another example, over 90% of child support is paid by employer withholding, and most of that by small businesses. They have to spend time doing extra accounting and paperwork, and get paid nothing for doing it. It is something we expect businesses to do without compensation as a civic duty, like jury duty or shoveling snow off the city-owned sidewalks in front of their business.

I'm glad to see efforts being made to help small businesses by streamlining permit processes, reducing and simplifying government paperwork, and eliminating obsolete or unnecessary regulations. These reforms don't make headlines but do make a real difference. I can't speak for the Brand X political party, but I would like to see the party I support take a "business friendly, user friendly" approach to government, especially at state and local levels.

[Matches]

Ralph Nader said it best in November 2000 after Bush was elected, I mean named into office. When someone asked Ralph if he thought the Democrats lost was because the people are getting tired of too much government, Ralph's answer was, " people have got to wake up in this country and stop worrying about the government trying to run their life and start worrying about how Corporate America is".
NAFTA would have never come up if Corporate America didn't ask for it. Here is a link to Ralph's Opinion on much of what is being discussed here, or as he calls it "Corporate Socialism"
http://www.essential.org/features/corporatesocialism.html

Take special note to the last paragraph, the government back in 1938 acknowledged the problems that can be created when companies get too big & too much power,etc. but then WWII came and the government never really got back to addressing these issues, and here we are...............

[Ralph]

[b] At stake is whether civic values of our democratic society will prevail over invasive commercial values...

[Not logged in]

It seems that Nader is upset that corporate socialism is beating out his government socialism. Who do you trust more; Politicians or Corporations to run the country? At least you can boycott a corporation and get their attention. Boycott the gov't and you can end up in jail.

Nader is a socialist that has always been anti-capitalism. He and his green party want to rule with their particular version of socialism and people like him are are a good part of the reason corporations are leaving the US: to avoid some of the outrageous environmental regulations.

MK

[Texeye]

The first thread states that the second largest employer in his area may be shutting down.If big business doesn't create jobs why are we so up in the air when they shut down or relocate?

It doesn't just hurt all who are employed there it also hurts every business and person in the area.

When a big business leaves an area who picks up the slack in property taxes? We do. Who loses school money when a big business leaves? We do.What little business suffers when a big business leaves? They all do, from the cafe to the truckers.It wrecks the local economy.

Our local towns are drying up.Property taxes are going up,schools are losing kids,small busineesses who served the bigger businesses are gone, all because about five of the biggest oil and gas companies in the area have left.

I don't think monopolies are good , but as far as big business,I am grateful for them.If it wasn't for them I would be unemployed and I don't even draw a pay check from them.

Got to go...I have to do go some work for one of those guys who works for Phillips.When I get home I'm going to make a small order to the worlds largest outdoor suppliers...you know...Cabelas.

Have a good weekend.

Texeye