View Full Version : Rich Men Fishing Tournaments.
sevenmmm
02-02-2003, 08:21 AM
This is a point that needs debate. Can people who have alot of time and money to afford fishing Walleye Tournaments be considered Pros?
Before you fashion an answer, there is a difference between becoming a Professional, and simply being a Pro. In fact, if you check the definition in the dictionary you will find this out.
And a word of warning to the real Professional: these guys who can afford it are buying products you represent, so be careful!
Dutchman
02-02-2003, 12:09 PM
Here's my take on what "Rich Men" implies to me. I'm thinking that the Pro's on the high end are "Rich" in their skills to capture not only Walleyes, but also highly skilled in capturing the attention of sponsors. That to me is a "Rich" person. Living their lives as they want, and not going hungry doing it. I also know there are others that "pay to play". Some can afford it and others can only wish to be there, even at an entry level. I think that's what makes the Pro Am circuits rewarding for most. As an Am they can only hope that they are paired with a "Rich" Pro.
The floor is now open for debate.....
" Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope "
luvtotroll
02-02-2003, 12:16 PM
Sounds like a class warfare statement to me. Who cares if someone call themself a pro or not.
Just fish and have fun and do not worry what others are doing or saying.
Scott
Juls_OH
02-02-2003, 12:21 PM
Amen to that Scott! Happy Anniversary by the way...;-)
Juls
A play on words is fun, but not really a valid statement. It is obvious that he is getting at the fact that there are great fishermen no matter how much money is in their wallet, but that perhaps the tournament/pro fishermen are not ALL necessarily the best of ALL the fishermen. Just that some are able to afford to get to the tournament and some not.
But, that is the way it goes. Not everyone can have it all. And yet, after seeing how most the pro's struggle to stay above water (financially), I don't know if I would want that for myself. Appearances are just that in many cases and many are living on borrowed money. Not for me, thanks anyway. I'll just have a blast on Little Bay De Noc and skip winnings and tropheys and the whole circus. Just a good time, no pressure.
esoxlucius
02-02-2003, 01:43 PM
I agree with luvtotroll. Just sounds like some whiner drippin'. So what if a person with money wants to fish in a tourney. Whats the problem with that? The fish have'nt a clue.
steve(IL)
02-02-2003, 01:48 PM
Forget the money for a minute....what about the TIME commitment to be a Pro on the road. Preparing for tournaments, appearances, pre-fishing, actual tournaments, travel time to-and-from, dealing with the hang-over of disappointments, maintaining all the equipment and tackle, weekends away from home.
On top of this, most guys have families and additional work related responsibilities.
Anybody who can manage all of that has my respect. Rich or not, I suspect it's still a hump.
Find something else to worry about.
guest
02-02-2003, 02:19 PM
Rick,
Are you saying we should stop fishing tournaments if we have enough money to do so? Perhaps you're suggesting some other format where people without money can be pros (perhaps bank fishing tournamnets). I'd like to hear what you're suggesting.
Can you become a professional golfer if you can't afford to get started. Are there any pro golfers that grew up on welfare, but managed to put enough money together to join the country club?
Can you start a NASCAR team for less than $10,000,000?
Can you become a professional engineer, doctor or lawyer with out enough money to go to college?
Whoa there...
02-02-2003, 02:56 PM
Hold up. Rick is not making the assumptions you all think he is. This is just a philisophical question. A Pro is a pro if he makes all or most of his living from that endevor. That is the definition of a professional. A person who fishes tournaments and represents sponsors is also called a pro but does not meet the true definition of professional. However, where rick might be going here is regarding the pro's who do all they do as they have plenty o money to do so. They get a lot of the honey from putting in time on a circuit. But they act like a random moron in the general public and live with conduct unbecoming of a pro and the ethics of a meat hog who'd shoot his own brother for 1 fish. They atre better than everyone and definately above their lowly Am partner. These types of guys are out there.
Been there
02-02-2003, 03:06 PM
Yes, and I've had to fish with a few. But nothing will ever change the fact the MAJORITY are decent people.
FROGMAN
02-02-2003, 03:39 PM
OK. You sucked me into this one. I don't want this to sound the wrong way, but I would like to point out that your definition of professional is just ONE of the standard meanings of the word according to the Websters dictionary I use. A "Pro" is also someone that is considered an expert in their area of knowledge. Most of the anglers on the tour have "traditional" jobs as well as the fishing aspect of their business life. Many of them I consider to be at the top of the game. Anglers like Ron Seelhof, Mike Gofron, Mark Brumbaugh, Jimmy Bell, and many more.
As more money develops into the tournament circuits and more sponsors realize the value professional Walleye anglers offer I believe more of them will be able to subsist solely off the proceeds derived from their endeavors. In the meantime however, many of the touring pro's will continue the balancing act of work, family, and tournaments while trying to make their dreams a reality.
Tight lines
Keith Segar
NPAA #260
Democrat
02-02-2003, 04:08 PM
Yes, you can start with nothing and become a doctor, engineer, or lawyer if you know how to work for it. I left home as a teenager, worked my way through college, enlisted in the Army and served with a combat outfit in Vietnam, and went to law school on the G.I. bill. I've worked on pit crews for guys who raced sprint and stock, who didn't have much money. Plenty of great athletes started out with nothing but a dream and sweat equity. You can go places in this world with determination and elbow grease.
Derek Johnston
02-02-2003, 04:11 PM
Every pro angler I have met has a full time job. Wether it's high paying or not, they still have to get out of bed and go to work. Some even work 6-7 days a week. Many pro anglers have alot of expensive equipment and boats, but thats what loans are for or sponsorships if you can earn one. Iam a firm believer that you get what you pay for in fishing equipment. There are some very expensive pieces of equipment out there than can really give you an advantage. When your throwing down thousands of hard earned dollars a year to compete for big payouts, you need everything you can to give you an edge over the next guy if it will help. If you have the funds, you can enter tournaments as a pro. But you should have some confidence before parting with that money.
Whoa there
02-02-2003, 04:27 PM
Hi Keith. I think I was not very clear in my 1st post. I meat that a pro is one that makes all or part of his (or her) living at what he/she does.
"A person who fishes tournaments and represents sponsors is also called a pro but does not meet the true definition of professional. I should have further said that someone who is an expert in their field, like a tournament angler, guide writer etc....is also considered pro. And you are right, most are very dcent people and are greatfor the sport. But I also was comenting on the few I personally know of that are not really very nice people. Oh sure in the fishing arena they are consumate pro's, but out in the real sector, or out of the cameras (sponsors) eye they are jerks.
My take on it
02-02-2003, 04:46 PM
According to websters dictionary (Professional) is following a line of conduct as if it were a profession. So it all comes back to conduct or attitude. Alot of Professional fishermen (fisherpeople)exude an attitude of confidence, that doesn't bother another "PRO" fisher, but may seem to another person suffering from a little lack of self confidence as an bad attitude. As an old saying says "you are what you think you are" or " You can be anything you want"
FROGMAN
02-02-2003, 04:49 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. Unfortunately you are correct, but understand that most any of the pro's out there will usually say something to someone if they are not representing the lot of us in the best of fashions. Call it self policing if you will. In fact that's one of the major tenets of the NPAA is to help address issues with individuals that don't show the proper respect or professionalism that is deserved of our sport.
As the old adage goes you can do a hundred things right and no one notices, but do one thing wrong..........
Tight lines
Keith Segar
NPAA #260
Rich, or not. Let them fish a few years, then see how they represent themselves, how well they compete, and how well their sponsors respect them. Then you'll know....pro or not.
hammertime
02-02-2003, 05:32 PM
A PRO: thats someone who relizes he,s won if he got a top 10 finish, also anyone who relized things didnt go his way during a tourney, because somtimes things just go that way, but "holds his head up" and get to the next tourney as its his next chance to get that "elusive win" or "top 10 finish". being a pro is being able to "look yourself in the face when done and say ok, i did my best" and hope tommorow brings better luck as thats half the battle is being lucky too. if a pro cant take a last place finish and leave with there head up, they probably shouldnt be there to start with as sombody will always be last in every tourney and if last is that bad, then its degrading his fellow anglers he fishes against.
just my apinion of coarse !!
This is a debate that could go on and on. I have often thought about this question. To me, a pro fisherman is not necessarily someone who has more fishing skills and knowledge than everyone else, but is one who has a lot of fishing skills and knowlege AND the time and money and is willing to make the sacrifices necessary to enter the tournament circuits.
Over the years, I have known several people who have fished all of their lives, and have gained an incredible amount of fishing skill and knowledge. However, you will never hear about them, or see them written up in fishing magazines or see them on TV, because they have neither the time, money or interest in fishing the tournaments. They do it for the love of the sport.
Because of that, I personally use the term "pro fisherman" loosely.
Yes, they are talented, skillful and knowledgeable when it comes to fishing, but they also have the time, money and desire to fish tournaments. I am willing to bet that all of you know at least one person, who if they entered a tournament, has the necessary skills and knowledge that could give any "well known" pro a run for their money. But doing so is not important to them personally, thus you will never hear about them.
sevenmmm
02-02-2003, 06:17 PM
I had the good fortune to meet and spend some quality time with Dan Plautz this last fall in Cedar River MI. And he kept refering to himself as just a tournament angler. I didn't comment on this at the time but I thought alot about it. Yes, I agree there are different levels of walleye fisherman fishing the tournaments. But I believe everyone with the courage to enter is a "Pro".
Doesn't Jim O'Rourke call every boat owner a pro when he approaches the stage?
Then this subject has come up on another web site I visit and some tend to think there are some fishing in tournaments who shouldn't be considered as a pro. On this site some have also alluded to this and I very much disagree with this thinking.
The following is my post on this other site, I just couldn't gloss over my thoughts there so I will just retype it. It follows:
Webster's Dictionary description of Professional: "having to do with job or profession, refering to or engaging in an occupation". There are some pros who fish the circuit that are professional.
However, the word most fishing circuits use to describe the boat owner who enters a contest as a "Pro". And again, Webster's Dictionary description is, "an argument in favor of OR supporting something".
We can easily deduce from these definitions the only qualificattion to be a Pro, is to enter a contest as one.
I believe the pride of entering as a Pro should not be diminished just because you may not be the best fisherman, or in making a living from the fishing industry. The level of courage to put yourself and your money on the line transcends the amount of weight you have at the end of the day.
Ultimately, it is the guy who finishes last who most deserves the title. For it is he who has helped pay for the winners purse and has the hardest time waking the next morning.
Rich S
02-02-2003, 08:48 PM
I think the answer to this question is simple. If you fish the pro side of the PWT or RCL you are considered a pro. Full time guides would also be considered pro's. I was at a major tournament weigh-in this summer. It was a pro-am event. All the guys weighed in and they announced the winner. The guy goes nuts. The announcer asks him about the day and he starts running down his am partner. It was only a couple of statements but that was enough for me. Now I can understand it would be hard to keep a straight head after finding out you just won a major event and a large amount of money but that is not acceptable. I have alot of respect for him as far as fishing goes. I do consider him a pro but I don't think that he acts like one. If you fish the PWT or RCL as a pro, then you are one, now act like it!
Gary Gray
02-02-2003, 10:04 PM
After reading all of this thread, I was not going to comment, but then I just had to.
Each and every statement here is true, and everyone is right in what they are saying, and further more, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
The word "Pro" is only a prefix, and can be put in front of any occupation or sport, and then it makes it sound good. Everyone wants to be good at what they do, and we all like to think we are, don't we? I enjoy what I do, whether it be fishing, being a Father, a Husband,or just being a Friend. But, you have to enjoy something, in order to progress at it, and when we progress at something, people assume we become "Pro's" at what we do. Just remember what the word "assume" means, and you will get my meaning of some people.
Like I said, I agree with every statement above, and I know that there have been some unkind situations with certain "Pro's", and those people need to be identified to the circut directors. There are some who think they walk on water, sooner or later the water gets deeper. There are some who think, their sh-t don't stink, sooner or later they fall into their own sh-t and have to smell it. The old saying, " what goes around, comes around" is as good as gold. In some cases, it just takes a little longer.
Now, for the most part, "all" anglers are just really "Great People", and have a deep love and respect for what they love to do, and each year at this time, when Cabin Fever takes over, bordem sets in, and threads like this get started!!!!!!!!
I will leave you with this thought, If each of us, could take every negative, and turn it into a positive, just imagine how nice we would all get along.
Just My thoughts!!
Not to call the dictionary wrong, but I think the "expert in the area of knowledge" qualifies a person more as a scholar than a pro. An engineer may be an expert in the field of knowledge of space flight, yet could pilot in space due to inability or lack of skill.
Same goes for fishing. Alot of guys hold the knowledge, but lack the skill on the stick. As such, they can be fishing scholars, yet NOT pro fishermen, because they lack enough skill on the stick when compared (or fishing against) others. I think alot of fishermen fall into this catagory really. On the other hand, there are those with alot of skill and natural ability, yet little overall knowledge of fishing when compared to others. I really think a pro is a combination of both knowledge and skill to a level that they excell above the average AND earns a living from it. When they retire, they are simply "experts" or "scholars" in the field of fishing and no longer are pros as they are no longer competing with fellow fishermen nor earning a living from it. Eventually their stick skills will wither away and their knowledge will wane and at some point, they will no longer even be experts as knowledge and skill have passed them up.
Just my .02
what?
02-03-2003, 04:42 AM
guest,
your points are ignorant, college takes brains, pro golf takes skill, Nascar takes skill and balls of steel, fishing as a pro takes alot of money, bottomline, whether your good or not if you have the money you can be a pro.
Backwater Eddy
02-03-2003, 06:03 AM
Don't confuse a competitor with a "Pro".
A fat wallet may allow someone to compete & compete & compete. Cash is certainly an advantage to encourage persistence.
Yet the "Pro" with refined skills and an accumulated working knowledge of strategies and patterns will float to the top every time.
Folks get way to hung up on titles. Each individual will need to understand their level of professional commitment as well as the goals they want to achieve. What others think is not the point at all.
Ed "Backwater Eddy" Carlson...><sUMo>
"Backwater Guiding"
seven, are you talking about the guy who has all the spendy toys and the first day of the tourney gets one fish, then day 2 after the leader board gives up the lead team of day 1, finds him following the leader of day 1 and comes in on day 2 with a limit? I know one of these guys, he looks good, talks the talk, just cant doit alone.
Philosopher
02-03-2003, 06:42 AM
Juls, the more posts I read from you, the more I like you.
what?
02-03-2003, 08:05 AM
If that is the case, they should be called Pro/competitor-Ams. Believe me I am not the one doing the labeling, that has been left up to the circuits. I do agree w/ the fact that there is a # of people that do deserve the rank of pro but not all that are labled as such.
CJHughes
02-03-2003, 08:27 AM
I'll bet the guys that keep on winning don't care how the rest of the bunch obtained the money for their entry fees as as they just keep paying it . Plus who wouldn't if they could , play the game that is ? I know I would . What a neat way to spend your money .
gettingalong
02-03-2003, 09:15 AM
i love the fact that these topics are continually posted on this board. it is so obvious that the most competitive bunch of guys i know are the walleye fishermen that have never won anything! jealousy and class envy make it even more fun when a guy does win! good day whiners...
Erie Fisherman
02-03-2003, 09:16 AM
Luvtotroll, I for one care.If I sign up to fish a RCL as a co angler,is it fair to me to get put in a boat with some guy that has money to waste and no idea what he is doing when it comes to fishing.I am thinking about getting in as a co angler in a couple of RCL`s but from what I am hearing from some of the guys that have fished them ,I am having some doubts.I have fish the PWT tournaments as a co angler and had fun with my pros.There were days when we didn`t do well but the guys I fished with were very knowlodgable fishermen.
I don`t think just because you have money should make you a pro fisherman.There should be some kind of critera to call yourself a pro on the tournament curcuit.This is not a bashing of any sort on the RCL .The RCL may just be the best thing to happend to walleye tourney fishing, but is also open the door to alot more people calling themselves PRO because they on an RCL boat.I do own an RCL boat but do not think I am good enough to fish as a pro yet.If I did I think I would be very unfair to my co angler to call my self a pro.
Erie Fisherman
sevenmmm
02-03-2003, 09:27 AM
Very good answer CJ!
I get the same sense from A FEW of the "old time" Professionals that the whole set-up is just a platform to hawk their wares. Then there are those who would like to play, but don't have either the time or the resources to make the grade. And A FEW of these can't get past the jealous emotions they feel.
So, with this mix of emotions, I can understand why there would be debate on this subject. I personally think anyone entering a contest as a boat owner is a "PRO", but not necessarily a "Professional".
One thing that is a given, it is a contest. And no one can claim that their money, or for that matter, their knowledge will guarantee them a win!
sevenmmm
02-03-2003, 09:52 AM
I hear you Erie. Last year as an amateur I fished with a "Pro" who used bottom bouncers fishing half-way down the water column, and I would never had done that. But I didn't bring my boat, nor did the pre-fishing, or plop down the 1200 bucks.
As an amateur you have no control. None. You may draw the most consistent fisherman on the circuit and get him on his bad day. Or you may draw the worse fisherman and get him on his best day. It is all luck!
Consider this: you are in 5th place going into the last day of the tournament, and your luck is holding up as you have drawn a "name" and he is in first place. You hastily look up those in front of you and they have all drawn pros who are having a bad tournament. Would you be happy then?
I think it would be a big mistake to enter as an amateur with the idea you will win. Last year I fished 5 of them as such and my best finish was 71st. But I had some of the best moments of my life and these experiences are alot more important to me than my finishes.
Erie Fisherman
02-03-2003, 09:59 AM
Rick, I am not think about getting in these tourneys to win.I want to get in to LEARN some new stuff with the hope of a year or two I can fish the pro side.But as I said if I get in with some rich guy that is just playing because he has money ,how much will I learn?
Erie Fisherman
whitetips
02-03-2003, 12:27 PM
Actually "professional" is described as engaged in activity for financial gain. It does not have to be your greatest source of income.
High school and college athletes that think about fishing Pro/Coanglers could loose there amateur statis if entered/or cash is received. STTA. It does not matter even if the sport or activity is not related.
guest
02-03-2003, 01:02 PM
To everyone that thinks that a zero fish day was a bust! I think I learn more on days when I only catch a few fish than on the days they just jump in the boat!
My point is that if you don't think you learned anything from your pro on the day you got zero'ed, then you were probably not paying attention to what he was doing or what was in his boat!
I fished with four Pro's in Saginaw Bay last summer. Each one trolled spinners different than the other. Some produced better than others. The best part of this whole deal is that I probably learned more about trolling spinners on saginaw bay in four days than any one of the individual pro's will in years. I have formed my own opinion from what I learned and have incorporated some techniques from each that I liked.
sevenmmm
02-03-2003, 01:33 PM
Whitetips, thats an interesting thought I hadn't considered.
Could you subtract your costs and finish by proving you didn't have any profit? Or is the mere fact you took a check, no matter how small?
whitetips
02-03-2003, 01:47 PM
Most events require a W9 filed with an application Pro/or Am , so Yes, it does not matter, Your earnings no matter how small will be given to IRS. The Hummer and Clothing deal of that High School BB Player is an Example, He could lose his HS BB /Sports egibility.
I don't think this kid cares , he will be a superstar some day.
But most of us are in the real world.
curious
02-03-2003, 02:44 PM
I think the college level goes on a sport by sport basis. That Weinke guy and some other football players played professional baseball before playing college football? I think that some states run the H.S. rules the same way, but that is definitely a state by state basis. In other words, junior wouldn't necessarily lose his eligibility to play college football, and probably not H.S., because he competed in a fishing tournament.
Democrat
02-03-2003, 02:44 PM
One of Guest's questions was, "Can you become a professional engineer, doctor or lawyer with out enough money to go to college?"
How does my answer miss the point of this question?
statman
02-03-2003, 02:51 PM
Interesting question. In some sports, you must pass some level of accomplishment before being considered an active "pro". For instance, one must carry a bowling average over 200 for 2 years before they can join the professional trail. Many people compete in golf tournaments, but would not be called "pros" or "professionals". On one hand, it may take away from the image and validity of the "professional" fishing sport, hurting the growth of the sport. On the other hand, it allows anybody willing to "pay the price" to become a "pro", which can only help the growth of the sport and adds a new dimension.....
The word professional has many meanings.
If you fish in a tournament which has a cash payout you would be considered a pro by some since you are competing for financial gain.
LeBron James is no longer an am since he took two jerseys in return for posing for a photo.
I fished the seasons biggest championship last fall as a co-angler. Many of the day one leaders fished in a little group with no more than 10 boats at any one time. Day two came and so did another 100 boats. Most of these guy's were sponsored in some way or another. Would you consider them "pro's"? I know I don't! It takes a lot more than time and money. That's why we always see the same names at the top of the winners list. M2
Jim Ordway
02-05-2003, 03:12 PM
If you look at the BASS world, they have qualifiers to get to the "Show". If the walleye tourney popularity continues to grow and solidify, I would guess that it will be patterned after the extremely successful BASS model. No doubt, that the "pro" designation used in most of the walleye tourneys is used to designate the boat owner and the angler who paid the highest fees to fish. Personally, I am thankful that the opportunities exist for many of us to participate at the levels that currently exist. I have enjoyed three PWTs as an co-angler and have taken some lessons from those events: 1. To be successful, you have to fish smart and hard. 2. You have to network, because you cannot be everywhere at once. 3.Everyone has bad days/weeks/seasons. Its what you do about it that matters. As Gary said, take that negative and turn it to a positive.. everyone will benefit from your attitude. 4.If its not fun,find another hobby.
Take care,
ebijack
02-05-2003, 04:38 PM
lots of great posts....one thing i see missing is...going on the "pro" side is NOT a cake walk. VERY long hours driving,pre-fishing,tourney days, break downs in the worse weather conditions (every tourney seems to bring bad/rough weather!) etc. having to stay in hotel rooms and NO home cooked meals. anyone who wishes to go this (and more) MUST love(or addicted to it) fishing and the heartships it creates. yes there are "pro's" who are not good fishing partners, but like other posts, you should (hope to)learn something from every outing good/bad. everyone hopes for "good" draws, that's the gamble you take when you lay your money down. if you don't want to gamble, don't enter any tourney. i have fished the "co-angler" side a few times and had good/bad experiences. you sure can learn what NOT to do in a tourney situation. you also get to ride/fish in many different boats with many different setups....it's more than just fishing!
just my take on it....
They call them pro/ams to irritate guys like you who are hung up on labels!
To get back on track, as I really do not think it was meant as a jealous issue of pro vs am, or haves vs have nots, but an objective question as to whether or not you could be professional without issue of big money and big gear or big sponsors.
In other words, Could you be a fisherman in the RCL League, and still out gun a RCL pro? I think the answer is yes, on any given day.
Because the issue is ability and knowledge, not money. But, to make it in todays Big tournaments, you need the big money and sponsors to get there.
So, aside from ability and knowledge, money is the key to getting to the big dance! Now that does not implicate anyone as a bad or good person, just that this is the way it works. And that is just the way it will keep working, because it will not change.
For those that have exceptional ability, and work at gaining sponsorships, it is possible to get to the big dance, but I imagine it will take a ton of your own bucks.
Then there is the wildcard!
LUCK!
Been There
01-17-2004, 12:47 PM
I have fished the PWT as an amateur and the RCL as a 'pro.' Most of the 'pros' in both tournaments have a pretty good idea on what needs to be done to catch fish. Sometimes the fish don't cooperate. Go ahead and review past tournament results and you will see that ALL pros zero sometimes, even 'Mr. Walleye'. If you want a truly level playing field, eliminate 'team fishing'. Disqualify ANY angler who shares information with any other angler.
As far as PWT vs. RCL, some of the 'pros' I was paired with in the PWT tournaments were not as dialed in to the bite on some of the waters we fished. Part of that was unfamiliarity, part was because they were 'working' alone or with a one other 'pro'. I'm sure that is true in the RCL as well.
My approach to being a 'pro' is to conduct myself in a professional manner, work hard researching a body of water before I fish it, and spend as much time as possible pre-fishing to give myself and my co-anglers the best possible chance to catch some fish and cash a check. I expect that of myself and, if I was a co-angler, I would expect it from the 'pro'. I will never ignore or belittle my co-angler, nothing is ever 'their fault', we fish as a team, and I want the day to be as much fun for both of us as possible. Bringing in a nice basket of fish is just the icing on the cake.
Don't take 'professional' fishing too seriously, or you won't enjoy it.
stevefellegy
01-17-2004, 03:16 PM
lol I'm not posting to the title or subject of this thread....I don't have the patience to read through it all...but...Rick, you say
"bottom bouncers fishing half-way down the water column" is wrong? lol Dang....I wish I'd have known that all the times I've trolled at Saginaw and Erie! lol (couldn't resist!)
Not true
01-17-2004, 04:01 PM
Your wrong here, Chris Winke Flor. ST. QB was a PRO baseball player and quit went back to school and played football. Others have done the same Matt Muack LSU QB played in the CUBS farm system just 2 years ago now he has the share of the National Champ!
T. Hammer
01-17-2004, 04:15 PM
Rick makes an excellent point.
As an example:
The United States Olympic Ski Team was chastised some years back as having sub-par performance consistantly and after studies, it was found that the main stumbling block, was in the way the teams skiers come to be on the team.
It was found that as the skiers had to pay for everything themselves each time they skied and for their equipment and travel and meals and the list goes on (sounds familiar huh tourney fishermen), that the US Team was only finding the best of the affluent US skiers and not the best of all US skiiers. As such, they fielded a sub-par team in comparison to other countries teams. This played out in competition after competition. Now, the Team also trains, and after years of training, some of those affluent skiers do become good, but most just finish low in the standings.
Now, in comparison to Walleye Tournament fishing, you have to understand that these fishermen also tend to be affluent or throwing their lifes savings at their sport (which will make them broke eventually unless they get lucky). Guessing by the number of expensive boats and the fact that no boat manufacturer gives away boats, it figures that they are affluent (by fishermans standards). As they also require a huge outlay for equipment, travel, meals, and entry fees, it figures as well that only an affluent fisherman can compete.
Given these facts, one must conclude that they are pros only with-in their ranks and not necessarily representative of the "best of the best" fishermen.
You can cry class warfare until you are blue in the face, but the facts are the facts.
Until tournaments can be fished by "the best" fishermen bar none, it will always be the best of the affluent or more affluent than average.
The US Olympic Team has since gone to commercial sponsors to assist the teams skiiers, however they still suffer the same problem as the up and coming skiers still have to get up to that level on their own funding.
The reason football and basketball in this country seems to have such talant is due to youth programs that develope youths skills regardless of affluence. Pop Warner, and the numerous youth basketball programs are an example. From these humble beginnings come the future stars of the NFL and NBA.
I am refering of course that a pro is one on top of his/her game, and not whether or not they get paid.
You can pay any fool to do a job, but will it be the best?
T. Hammer
01-17-2004, 04:33 PM
Just getting paid or maiking their living from the sport is not the definition of a pro. Nor is behaving "like a pro" making you a pro.
A pro is a person that is near the top of all people who's physical and mental skills combined are so refined, that they represent the best of all people at those skills.
Money can't buy that and neither can attitude. Skill is skill.
Now, you throw the affluent into a barrel and you will definitely have the best of that field come to the top. Same with the poor in their own barrel. But when you throw the best of the affluent and the poor into the barrel, what will float to the top? The best of all combined, representative of not money, or attitude, but pure skill.
And of course as fishing is still 50% luck, the luckiest of the most skilled.
Charles in Charge
01-17-2004, 04:46 PM
Yes, but only if the playing field is leveled. If you don't have the big bucks or affluent family, you will never see the inside of Harvard University or Oxford University.
That is the point here. As long as the cost is outrageous and you need sponsorships, an excellent fisherman with average money will not likely ever see an RCL day on the water. Whereas he could play around in the poor mans RCL League. Two standards... Rich "Pros" and Average Joes.
Blow the fees and special boat requirements away and watch to see who wins those tournaments. You will see allot of low finishes by many of todays "Pros".
But alas, the tournaments are not at all about "pros", it is about the image of them being "pros" and marketing products for us all to blow money on.
Just ask NASCAR how it works. It all about the marketing, not the substance! These "pros" would race refrigerators on caster wheels if they thought someone would pay to see it. And you still would only have the most affluent refrigerator racers around! Not the best!
T. Hammer
01-17-2004, 04:58 PM
That is way off. According to that definition, any guy who sucks ata skill would be a pro just because he consucts himself in such a manner of attitude that a pro should! Not!
Loser
01-17-2004, 05:08 PM
Really when it comes down to Tournament fishing, it is simply a competition that pays money plain and simple. Winning or losing these tournaments is not representative of the best of all Walleye fishermen because it is not open to all competitors, just those with the where-with-all and the money to enter a tournament. The winner is simply the winner of that competition. Winning does not make them a pro because they absolutly cannot claim they competed against the best, only those that could afford to enter the tournament. And because of that, winning the competition was comparing them against other money, not the best skills.
Really nobody cares if tournament fishermen call themselves "pros" or not. They are the ones that get upset when their claimed title is challenged. Everybody else sees right through the fecade.
Craving attention, the spotlight and holding titles is a rich mans game. Let them have it. They are legends in their own minds!
Now you guys with the numbers by your names, hurry and reply!
Just call me a loser because I am sure by labeling/demeaning me, you can elevate yourself to even higher fame!
Walleye Express
01-17-2004, 06:37 PM
>This is a point that needs debate. Can people who have alot
>of time and money to afford fishing Walleye Tournaments be
>considered Pros?
>
>Before you fashion an answer, there is a difference between
>becoming a Professional, and simply being a Pro. In fact, if
>you check the definition in the dictionary you will find this
>out.
>
>And a word of warning to the real Professional: these guys who
>can afford it are buying products you represent, so be
>careful!
[b] Hey Rick.
Thought I'd chime in, even though I'm still burnt at both ends from (THE BIG QUESTION) thread I had going for a while. And even though I learned a few things I didn't know about tournament fishing that both surprised and dissapointed me, you did get me to actually admit (under the Prefix) of the word Professional, that the word Pro should be acceptable for tournament fishermen. You did what few people can seldom do with me. That is, change my mind.
As far as this thread goes, I did one thing that others may not have thought of before answering. I immagined myself winning the power ball lottery. Let's say 10 million. Enough that allowed me to do whatever I wanted to do, with only the best equipment. I think I would fish every tourney they could invent. I'd have boats at every tourney site, to he!! with hauling them. If I needed a Lund or Ranger to fish those speciality touneys, NO PROBLEMO. Poof....Rap her up and ship her to Lake X.
Now, could I be considered a Pro? With nothing else to gain except the praise and personal recongnition from my peers, I really guess not. Kind of ironic isn't it.
D. Trump
01-17-2004, 06:45 PM
I don't get it...this thread is from February '03 and it reappears? I think that somebody recently posted another thread and this got beat to death. Of course, I've noticed that some folks tend to mine the archives for subjects with high views and repost same/similar questions and they are all of a sudden "new" again.
You are somewhat confused. Who, exactly, is a better tournament fisherman than todays tournament fisherman. You seem to be implying that there are a bunch of really good fisherman out there that cant afford to fish tournaments. If they've never fished tournaments, how do you know they are good tournament fisherman.
How have all of these good fisherman, that don't have any money, proven how good they are on new lakes all over the US, if they don't have enough money to travel to a new lake every week?
I have a little info for you...you can't be a good tournament fisherman unless you fish tournaments.
Being good at your local lake when the weather is nice and catching fish when ever you go out does not mean you'd be a good tournament competitor. And, all the money in the world wouldn't help.
Fuzzy
01-17-2004, 07:53 PM
"If you are ever at a poker table trying to figure out who the sucker is....you are the sucker." Just call them donaters that can afford to learn the expensive way or they are kinda guy that likes to tell people back home that he is a 'pro' to impress people.
SUPERTROLLER
01-17-2004, 08:17 PM
Steve, I call that a snap weight with a wire walker. It does the same thing, just maybe not a traditional style snapweight. The fish are where you catch them,,,,,, sometimes suspended is a very good place to be, as you said.
show me
01-17-2004, 08:52 PM
You forget something that is very critical on this topic. Rich people usually don't become rich by luck. They are smart, work hard, and some may land some lucky breaks along the way. So I don't believe a rich person will keep entering pro tournaments and finishing last. He's to smart to keep giving his/her money away! Now I do believe that well to do anlgers will enter these tournaments and give it their best shot. I do believe that if they are not successful they will stop entering these tournaments.
If a pro is defined by success then how do you define the success. If a guy finishes in the top ten is he a good pro? What is he when at the next tournament on a different lake he comes in at 144?? Is his pro title then stripped away? You probably do not have to do much research to find a bad finish for everyone of the best known Pro's today.
Put it to rest
01-17-2004, 09:47 PM
>>A Pro is a pro if he makes all or most of his living from that endeavor.
If this is true, then there aren't many, if any, 'pros'. No one survives on net tournament income. What you may mean is that 'pros' work in the fishing industry. That's where they make their income. Anyone can work in the industry without fishing tournaments, so that doesn't make someone a 'pro'. In my book, that makes them a salesman who fishes tournaments. No different than the 'pro' who sells insurance, or the 'pro' that is a doctor, or...so on and so forth.
Professionalism is ALL about how you conduct yourself in your field, not how much $$$ you make.
Helper
01-17-2004, 09:56 PM
Again....please post this stuff in the tournament forum.
sevenmmm
01-18-2004, 07:29 AM
Hey there Fuzzy thinker, you better clear your thoughts as there are enough good fisherman with small tin boats that could compete in these expensive tournaments - but can't afford it.
So how would you suggest getting these great (poor) fisherman entered into these tournaments?
And to the guy whining about dredging up old topics: Do you have a favorite fishing spot that you revisit?
And to Dan - I consider that a great compliment my friend. :-)
Pond scum
01-18-2004, 10:40 AM
Do you guys realize that you are getting sucked into a thread from February 2003 that was apparently ressurected from the archives? I was glad to see this die a year ago.
Pond scum
01-18-2004, 10:40 AM
Do you guys realize that you are getting sucked into a thread from February 2003 that was apparently ressurected from the archives? I was glad to see this die a year ago.
D. TRrump
01-18-2004, 10:59 AM
There are few folks here who just like to talk to hear themselvves talk. Posts like this should die and not be resurrected. What's the point Sevenmm? You posted it a year ago and you didn't hear the answer that you wanted so you bring it back. Even though Dan's "big question" thread discussed the same thing. Somebody has to much time on his hands.
D. TRrump
01-18-2004, 10:59 AM
There are few folks here who just like to talk to hear themselvves talk. Posts like this should die and not be resurrected. What's the point Sevenmm? You posted it a year ago and you didn't hear the answer that you wanted so you bring it back. Even though Dan's "big question" thread discussed the same thing. Somebody has to much time on his hands.
sevenmmm
01-18-2004, 11:33 AM
Sorry Scum, I didn't resurrect this thread. D Trump, why don't you pick on all the users who have many more posts than I? Besides, we don't talk here, WE TYPE!
No doubt some of you people just don't like me. So do yourselves a favor - and not click on anymore of my posts!
sevenmmm
01-18-2004, 11:33 AM
Sorry Scum, I didn't resurrect this thread. D Trump, why don't you pick on all the users who have many more posts than I? Besides, we don't talk here, WE TYPE!
No doubt some of you people just don't like me. So do yourselves a favor - and not click on anymore of my posts!
D. Trump
01-18-2004, 11:37 AM
My point wasn't about folks who have lots of posts, just those who bring back their own. Oh, and thanks for pointing out that we just type here. I forgot about that.
D. Trump
01-18-2004, 11:37 AM
My point wasn't about folks who have lots of posts, just those who bring back their own. Oh, and thanks for pointing out that we just type here. I forgot about that.
Pond scum
01-18-2004, 12:06 PM
Sorry Rick, I never said you did. If you would have read my post carefully, you would have noted that I never mentioned your name once. Anyone could have ressurected that post, and actually you as the original author are the last person that I would think that would have brought it back. I didn't realize that as you say, some people may not like you. I do not even know you. However, if it is common practice for you to lash out and point fingers while responding to a post in which you have not even armed yourself with accurate information, then I can see why people may not like you. Perhaps you need need to spend a little more time reading posts before responding. I realize that some people have reading problems, but fortunately I think you can get help for that. Again, I stress that I never mentioned your name once in my post. Don't give yourself so much credit.
Pond scum
01-18-2004, 12:06 PM
Sorry Rick, I never said you did. If you would have read my post carefully, you would have noted that I never mentioned your name once. Anyone could have ressurected that post, and actually you as the original author are the last person that I would think that would have brought it back. I didn't realize that as you say, some people may not like you. I do not even know you. However, if it is common practice for you to lash out and point fingers while responding to a post in which you have not even armed yourself with accurate information, then I can see why people may not like you. Perhaps you need need to spend a little more time reading posts before responding. I realize that some people have reading problems, but fortunately I think you can get help for that. Again, I stress that I never mentioned your name once in my post. Don't give yourself so much credit.