MudflatsJack
03-18-2004, 01:07 PM
I don’t care if it’s Brunswick, Tracker etc. Asian Manufacturing has well permutated the US markets and boat building. China is booming in manufacturing. China is currently having their industrial revolution and technological revolution at the same time. If you’re about making money, any huge company like Genmar is selling off divisions in investing the Asian market. Manufacturing is set up the way American used to be. Manufactures have created towns with plants being the sole provider of employment. Profits are Huge, along with steel, Aluminum, electronic components are being dumped on the US market and the investors from the US are getting a nice return. Hard to think the bow of your Lund comes from China? I don’t think Lena went down to the local scrap yard and got a roll of tin. Take a look at your LCD on your Lowrance; it wasn’t made in Racine, Wisconsin. Mercury’s parts and alloy produced in Japan etc. The point here is the world economy doesn’t need to do business with US manufacturing anymore, and they won’t. Just keep electing people like Bush and watch manufacturing continue to dwindle.
I’m sure someone is going to say, “prove it, you don’t love your country,” & “ I know A guy how works for XXXX and he said this guys is full of crap!” “ I talked to a guy from the boat show and he said”. How are your stocks doing, wages been freezed? Laid off?
MudflatsJack
03-18-2004, 01:11 PM
davis Tue Mar-16-04 10:56 AM
#143093, "mercury bought lund"
i heard last week at bass pro that mercury bought lund and a few other aluminum boat co.
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Replies to this topic
RE: mercury bought lund, Stormsearch, Mar 16th 2004, #1
RE: mercury bought lund, unclebuck, Mar 17th 2004, #2
RE: mercury bought lund, poor boy, Mar 17th 2004, #10
RE: mercury bought lund, T-Mac, Mar 17th 2004, #3
RE: mercury bought lund, czy42strokes, Mar 17th 2004, #4
RE: mercury bought lund, Shep, Mar 17th 2004, #5
RE: mercury bought lund, czy42strokes, Mar 17th 2004, #9
RE: mercury bought lund, T-Mac, Mar 17th 2004, #6
RE: mercury bought lund, Flip Silver Lake, Mar 17th 2004, #7
RE: mercury bought lund, Yeah Agree, Mar 17th 2004, #8
Irwin, Yummy, Mar 17th 2004, #11
RE: Irwin, A Hunch, Mar 17th 2004, #13
RE: mercury bought lund, well, Mar 17th 2004, #12
RE: mercury bought lund, Phil D, Mar 18th 2004, #14
RE: mercury bought lund, hgmeyer, Mar 18th 2004, #15
RE: mercury bought lund, Tyee Guy, Mar 18th 2004, #16
RE: mercury bought lund, Glad2, Mar 18th 2004, #17
RE: mercury bought lund, Tyee Guy, Mar 18th 2004, #18
RE: mercury bought lund, Inthe know, Mar 18th 2004, #19
RE: mercury bought lund, Tyee Guy, Mar 18th 2004, #20
RE: mercury bought lund, MudflatsJack, Mar 18th 2004, #21
Stormsearch Tue Mar-16-04 11:03 AM
Charter member
555 posts
#143094, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 0
For alot of the details go to the previous thread:
http://www.walleyecentral.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=846&mode=full
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unclebuck Wed Mar-17-04 01:39 PM
Member since Mar 09th 2004
3 posts
#143239, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 0
Ok, I am finally going to put in my two cents worth. I am an x-dealer, have owned STAR-CRAFT, CRESTLINER, LUND, YAR-CRAFT,LOWE, EVENRUDE, YAMAHA, SUZUKI, and MERC products, all of which were generally positive experiences. I will not mention the name of the product I have negative feelings about.
Irwin Jacobs is classic love/hate scenario. He is a good businessman who let the individual companies run their own show as long as they were profitable. He bought good companies and they were good when he sold them.I am not sure why he bought LOWE, but they kind of came with the OMC pkg. and he may have got them for nothing. Having said that, Mr. Jacobs has no loyalties to anyone and I do not believe he is a fisherman. A dealer rep. told me the RCL would not last, tho it took about three years longer than he thought. I do not think RANGER buyers who do not compete and win can continue to support those who do. CRESTLINER and LUND are a little different because they sell a much larger number of units. Bottum line-- I do not believe the RCL. By the way, I do not think you can argue about the quality of a RANGER.
While choice is good, realities aka $/bottomline exist.I can not go to the FORD dealership and buy a F-150 with a GM V-8. The independent boatbuilders can still give us a choice, but at what cost to the customer and their business? Just about all, if not all brands were independent at one time. CHAMPION went broke less than two years ago.
BRUNSWICK is trying to vertically integrate as OMC did. BRUNSWICK is doing this with parts, fixtures, electronics, accessories etc. and will be very forceful with its brands and dealers. It will be package boat city like TRACKER. If you can sell the low end electronics and trolling motor you may come out all right. We did come out of the OMC fiasco in about two model years. Hopefully BRUNSWICK will put as much into it as BOMBARDIER did and not cheapen the brands. BOMB cashed out also to save the French planes and trains. Jacobs cashed out for what he sees as more potential for future profits. I would not bet against him. VEC will also be licensed out to non-GENMAR companies at some point, I would guess.
We are all in for a wild ride. There are now two aluminum giants, TRACKER and BRUNSWICK and most if not all of these boats will have MERCS, like it or not. ALUMACRAFT should take advantage, at least for the short term.
Uncle Buck
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poor boy Wed Mar-17-04 06:27 PM
#143284, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 2
Could someone explain in laymans language, exactly what is this new VEC system, and what effect will it have on the fiberglass boat building business?
Thank you,
Poor boy
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T-Mac Wed Mar-17-04 01:58 PM
#143242, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 0
Rick,
Brunswick bought Lund, C-Liner and Lowe from Genmar.
Brunswick owns many companies, one of which is Mercury Marine.
The possibilities are unlimited for fishermen who are bowlers and pool shooters now!!!
(Just kidding on that part, Rick).
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czy42strokes Wed Mar-17-04 02:08 PM
Charter member
143 posts
#143244, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 3
Interesting topic to say the least. I wonder if Yamaha saw this coming. With the recent lawsuit file against yamaha by Merc for illegal dumping of motors in the usa I have to wonder if that is why Yamaha bought out the G3 line of boats. I recently compared feature for feature a 1700 Lund Fisherman to a yamaha G3 V175WT and was surprised at how close they mirrored each other with the G3 coming out ahead in my opinion. Considering the G3 is total package selling. boat,yamaha motor, trailer. Competition is what breeds inspiration..
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Shep Wed Mar-17-04 03:04 PM
Member since Sep 26th 2001
609 posts
#143255, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 4
Yamaha owned G3 well before Merc brought the dumping charges up, so the fact they were dumping had no influence on their purchase of G3. They bought it because it is a cheap line, and they needed a boat line to put their motors on.
Tight Lines All,
Shep
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czy42strokes Wed Mar-17-04 05:59 PM
Charter member
143 posts
#143276, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 5
Yea, I knew that. Yamaha has long range vision. I think they were looking down the road in case a day like this happened. Plus it did give them another option on getting their motors to the market.
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T-Mac Wed Mar-17-04 03:55 PM
#143265, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 4
Shep is correct. Yamaha has owned G-3 for quite a few years. They bought G-3 and Skeeter in order to own some transoms, on which to hang their engines. I sold G-3 for a few years, back in the 90's.
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Flip Silver Lake Wed Mar-17-04 04:13 PM
#143267, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 6
Needless to say I will not buy another Lund if all I can get on it is a Merc. I talked to a Lund dealer at the Milwaukee sport show this last weekend, and he is worried that ir Merc locks up the motor options on Lunds you won't see nearly as many of them around in the future. He said he sells the majority of his Lunds with out Merc's on them and he also said that most people are very specific about that.
The bowling ball folks better not stick ther heads in the sand on this one!
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Yeah Agree Wed Mar-17-04 05:45 PM
#143273, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 7
That is the biggest fear.
If all Lund (and the other 2) dealers are only Mercury, total sales will drop. Hopefully Brunswick is smart enough to realize this and not force the issue. Irwin made good money without owning a motor company and enabling use of all motors on these boats.
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Yummy Wed Mar-17-04 06:35 PM
#143286, "Irwin"
In response to Reply # 8
How do you know Irwin made money on his aluminum boats? I think he made most of his money on the engines packaged with boats not to mention they engines sold without boats.
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A Hunch Wed Mar-17-04 10:51 PM
#143328, "RE: Irwin"
In response to Reply # 11
When you sell 3 boat companies for 200 million, the books would indicate good earnings.
You aint wrong on the engine income, either!
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well Wed Mar-17-04 07:44 PM
#143297, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 4
Merc started the "dumping" lawsuit to get Yammi to back way off so Merc could move into the Asian market place and outsource their labor there....you Merc employees watch your back...and dont flame me this is just some "backroom" chatter from those in the business the other day...
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Phil D Thu Mar-18-04 05:09 AM
#143335, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 12
Merc started the "dumping" lawsuit to get Yammi to back way off so Merc could move into the Asian market place and outsource their labor there....you Merc employees watch your back...and dont flame me this is just some "backroom" chatter from those in the business the other day...
First of all Mercury didn't file a law suit against Yamaha. Merc petitioned the federal government to look into the possibility that all the Japanese outboard manufacturers are selling engines in the USA for less than they cost to build or for substantially less than they sell them for in Japan; either of which is a dumpjng violation. So far the US Government has found enough evidence to proceed with the investigation.
Are you making the point that Merc is trying to get prices raised in Japan? Seems unlikely that this is Mercs intention given the relative size of each market. Why do you feel that is necessary for Merc to increase their market share in Asia before they can outsource labor there? I don't beilieve that increased market share in Asia is necessary to have things built there.
As far as Merc employees watching thier back; I think that Merc has made thier intentions perfectly clear. I have read in the press that Merc intends to produce 4-strokes 30 HP and less with Tohatsu in the plant they jointly own in Japan. Mercury intends to built 40 - 60 HP in plants they own and staff in China and that they will produce 75 HP on up in Fond du Lac.
I guess there will be fewer plant workers in Fond du Lac in the future but how come? It looks to me that Merc has to move low profit engines to a place with cheap labor to compete with the Japanese brands on price. Don't tell me that Merc isn't being beat up on price until you have done some real comparisons on HPDI vs. Optimax or consider that a 9.9 4S is priced the same as a 2 stroke; do you really think that it is possible given the mecahnical complexity of a 4S vs. a 2S or considering that the tooling for the 2S has been paid for for many years?
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hgmeyer Thu Mar-18-04 08:28 AM
Member since Feb 02nd 2002
674 posts
#143352, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 14
I am not an economist or an expert on this finer points of foreign trade/outsorcing of labor, etc.... But, in all of the press releases about this sale I read an interesting fact. Genmar said that in the future VEC technology would reduce the labor cost of molding the hull. The press release said that the labor cost would reduce from 20 hours to 45 minutes... 19 hours of labor less... Okay, that is obviously only a very small part of the total labor to make a boat... But, that will be a factor in maintaing boat production here for a while longer...
The Asian market for small and mid sized outboards is "huge", absolutely huge... But, it is a totally different market... Boats are not primarily recreational "toys"... So, there isn't a market, yet, for our boats... And, the cost of building and then shipping a boat from here to Asia would be prohibitive... but, not the other way... I think as technology (VEC, and others) progresses you will see boat production off shore as well...
Just as in the machine tool industry of the 60s and 70s... while it was only possible to find the skilled machinists necessary to make the machines they were built in the US and Europe... When computerized machinery took over and there was a far shorter learning curve for operators you saw our industry vapoize!
However, as time passes and the foreign economy catches up and the atandard of living rises... Look at the last fifty years in Japan... Now, Japanese workers worry about "outsourcing" to other parts of Asia. What is happening is a part of a natural cycle of business adjusting to teh realities of the market place... A lot of this is just an inevitable progression. Our "benefit" is derived from the fact that we are usually the leader in engineering and development...
HG Meyer
"Fear Me All Ye Who Dwell Beneath The Waves"
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Tyee Guy Thu Mar-18-04 11:15 AM
Member since Mar 03rd 2004
50 posts
#143372, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 15
Glad I bought my Tyee last year while I had a chance to choose which motors I wanted.......Those big, heavy Hondas........
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Glad2 Thu Mar-18-04 11:59 AM
#143378, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 16
I bet your happy with those Hondas.
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Tyee Guy Thu Mar-18-04 12:04 PM
Member since Mar 03rd 2004
50 posts
#143379, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 17
Love them......If they could cook and************, you get the drift.......Hope my wife dosen't read this!!!!!!!!!!
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Inthe know Thu Mar-18-04 12:04 PM
#143380, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 16
You can this year, too...and next year, as well.
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Tyee Guy Thu Mar-18-04 12:12 PM
Member since Mar 03rd 2004
50 posts
#143381, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 19
..and the year after??????????
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MudflatsJack Thu Mar-18-04 01:10 PM
Member since Jan 07th 2003
80 posts
#143386, "RE: mercury bought lund"
In response to Reply # 0
don’t care if it’s Brunswick, Tracker etc. Asian Manufacturing has well permutated the US markets and boat building. China is booming in manufacturing. China is currently having their industrial revolution and technological revolution at the same time. If you’re about making money, any huge company like Genmar is selling off divisions in investing the Asian market. Manufacturing is set up the way American used to be. Manufactures have created towns with plants being the sole provider of employment. Profits are Huge, along with steel, Aluminum, electronic components are being dumped on the US market and the investors from the US are getting a nice return. Hard to think the bow of your Lund comes from China? I don’t think Lena went down to the local scrap yard and got a roll of tin. Take a look at your LCD on your Lowrance; it wasn’t made in Racine, Wisconsin. Mercury’s parts and alloy produced in Japan etc. The point here is the world economy doesn’t need to do business with US manufacturing anymore, and they won’t. Just keep electing people like Bush and watch manufacturing continue to dwindle.
I’m sure someone is going to say, “prove it, you don’t love your country,” & “ I know A guy how works for XXXX and he said this guys is full of crap!” “ I talked to a guy from the boat show and he said”. How are your stocks doing, wages been freezed? Laid off?
" count to 5, set the hook "
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Bill from Minnesota
03-18-2004, 01:56 PM
To "blame" this on Bush is a major over simplification to say the least. The recession and loss of manufacturing jobs was well on its way with a good head of steam while Bill Clinton was President. And trust me from my pespective it was not Bill Clintons fault. The dotcom revelolution, mostly fueled in this country, has helped open up the world to communication and ease of doing business and economic forces come from all points of the globe. There are not easy answers to any of this, and if anyone thinks that electing a different President will change the dynamics of world wide economic forces, is from my perspective "dreaming".
China is raising prices dramatically as we speak because of a shortage of steel worlswide. Scrap has gone from $70 per ton to $200 per ton in months. I expect to see this have a positive impact on our own taconite business in Minnesota.
That said, there is still room for us in the world of manufacturing. Remember when Japan was the cheapest on the block. They now have such a developed economy they are a much higher cost producing location.
This was too long winded already but my 2 cents worth about a very complicated issue.
czy42strokes
03-18-2004, 02:21 PM
>I don’t care if it’s Brunswick, Tracker etc. Asian
>Manufacturing has well permutated the US markets and boat
>building. China is booming in manufacturing. China is
>currently having their industrial revolution and technological
>revolution at the same time. If you’re about making money, any
>huge company like Genmar is selling off divisions in investing
>the Asian market. Manufacturing is set up the way American
>used to be. Manufactures have created towns with plants being
>the sole provider of employment. Profits are Huge, along with
>steel, Aluminum, electronic components are being dumped on the
>US market and the investors from the US are getting a nice
>return. Hard to think the bow of your Lund comes from China?
>I don’t think Lena went down to the local scrap yard and got a
>roll of tin. Take a look at your LCD on your Lowrance; it
>wasn’t made in Racine, Wisconsin. Mercury’s parts and alloy
>produced in Japan etc. The point here is the world economy
>doesn’t need to do business with US manufacturing anymore, and
>they won’t. Just keep electing people like Bush and watch
>manufacturing continue to dwindle.
>I’m sure someone is going to say, “prove it, you don’t love
>your country,” & “ I know A guy how works for XXXX and he said
>this guys is full of crap!” “ I talked to a guy from the boat
>show and he said”. How are your stocks doing, wages been
>freezed? Laid off?
The problem lies with the american worker and the shareholders/ceo's etc of companies. We negotiate for better pay/ health ins/ benefits every year. The cost of doing business for corporate america rises. to maintain their comfort level of living corporate america raises the price of their goods To maintain their profit margin. We negotiated for better wages the next year to keep up with the cost of consumer goods. It's a catch 22. What is the answer?
DuckCrusher
03-18-2004, 03:07 PM
You sound like some thugs I listened to yesterday in a state of the art manfacturing plant. "We're next." "It's Bush's fault." "#### Halliburton." Blah blah blah. They must all read the same union rag. The fact is, folks *****in about jobs going out of the country don't realize that places like china don't have to worry if they spill "ozone depleting chemicals" or have an "emissions release". But, when Bush continues a program already in place, to allow the purchase of pollution credits by US manf, the same group that #### about losing jobs, complains about the environment and how the sky is falling, with a big hole in it. The cirle the wagon routine sucks. I've about had it with dolts who blame Bush, or Clinton for that matter for everything we've created with our votes, complaints and demands. ####, Bush is the first pres to have the balls to go after BinLaden, and Hussein and do the job, and then folks #### about that. Bleep it. You are ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't.
I suppose it was Bush's fault you were constipated this morning too?
Mudflat,
I don't think President Bush gave "Most Favored Nation Status" to China. Seems to me that was your buddy, Bill! Part of the reason China is growing, and our trade deficit is growing with them, is that China controls the value of their currency with respect to the Dollar. It is NOT fair trade, and in fact is done to hurt the US. There is no such thing as free trade where we are concerned. We're the only country that is practicing it, and it's costing us big time.
Tight Lines All,
Shep
MudflatsJack
03-18-2004, 06:48 PM
Interesting points of view, The only issue I can argue is Bin Laden isnt the problem, Bin Laden is every where, The Jihad is. America is giving uo it's culture, Like fishing/lund/alumacraft etc to coroprate profits. I just want my 20 year old Son to have opportunity in his chosen field of manufacturing to live aswell as we all had. Not only him, but your children and grandchildren should have the experience of waking up one day and buying lets say a new Lund that stood for something.Rember paper routes, pumping pumping gas, working in the filelds as a boy for some bucks. Not in American now.I want his children to enjoy open water with a product invented and inspired by American strengh.