: Is it unethical or just competition to fish by the leader after day 2?
04-07-2004, 12:21 PM
I don't wan't to start a war, so please don't flame each other.
Say Joe Shmoe DID NOT pre-fish an area, is it unethical to follow the leader or tail pipe on day two, or is it part of the competition and all is fair?
I have heard different views from different people, and am just curious of a quick poll.
I am asking the people that actually fish tournements for opinions. It could be a good debate if it does not get out of hand.
04-07-2004, 12:29 PM
I personally don't agree with it. I personally think it really stinks and I feel pretty strong about that. Unfortunately, I don't see it changing as money is involved and usually when that is the case ethics get thrown out the window. The problem is if there was rules enforced against it how would they be enforced? Just because you don't fish a spot one day doesn't mean you won't the next. I have prefished community holes and not fished them on day one of the tourney only to go back to them on day 2 when my other spot doesn't turn out. I feel I have just as much right to go back into the spot that I scouted before the tourney even if there are 40 guys on it. I'm not going on there knowledge either if I learned the spot prefishing but it won't look that way to them.
04-07-2004, 02:26 PM
Definately depends on conditions.
For instance, there may be an instance when you needn't had pre-fished an area as you knew this particular spot didn't hold fish on hot calm conditions. If the second day of the tournament points you to this area, and you've fished it in the distant past, then there is no problem whatsoever.
Also agree that just because one is not fishing a spot the first day, doesn't exclude one from not fishing this spot the next day.
Beyond this, unless you have fished the area before and know of the small details required to be successful here, I think it is a waste of time to be following along with the leaders.
04-07-2004, 02:45 PM
Oh man - I am staying away of this one. If you guys all hate me this much then I'll just quit the tour and go home.
I can't see how it can depend on conditions. It's either tailpiping or it's not. If you happen to be fishing that spot by chance, it's not tailpiping. Under no conditions I can think of is it ethical to intentionally follow someone from take off to their spot just to fish where they are because they're on fish and you're not.
04-07-2004, 04:12 PM
Unless your in line within 4-5 boats of the leader, how can anyone follow this person anyway? It is total coincidence for most to follow the leader out to this spot without being able to see where the leader is going.
Most of the people accusing others of tailpiping really have no idea if it is true of how anyone happens upon the leader's spot...
As for the Illinois River, because of its closeness, there may be some cause to accuse some, but since most already know all the spots, it's really quite pointless.
Just go fish your best and let the fish decide.
04-07-2004, 04:38 PM
When I was in the RCL Championship on Green Bay, my Pro for day 2 fished off a well known island with 5-6 other boats on day 1. This location was about 27 miles out if I remember correctly. On day two I counted over 60 boats at this same location. This was total coincidence? Ya' Right! Especially since I heard people the night before say that they knew where he was and they were going there to get in on the action.
Another interesting note with this scenario is that I prefished for 4 days prior to this event. I and another Pro found this spot in practice. I hit it on and off during that 4 day period. I never saw more than a couple of boats there at any one time in practice.
I witnessed one of the ugliest sites in Professional fishing that day. I saw very well known Pro's make fools out of themselves. They cheapened the entire experience. It's amazing how $50,000 or $400,000 will change how some people act.
I was embarrassed to be a part of it. I even had one person call me a fool because I didn't convince or tell my Pro for Day one to go there.
You say most of the people accusing others of tailpiping really have
no idea if it is true of how anyone happens upon the leader's
04-07-2004, 11:16 PM
You witnessed first hand how a person can hold a nickle close enough to hide the sun!
The pro I respect the most is the one who will stick to his game plan from the beginning, and accept lossing rather than move in on some other mans success! The true measure of a pro is the man who is willing to live with his decisions from the start, no matter the outcome. PERIOD!
04-08-2004, 06:44 AM
I'm just curious how this is different from pros partnering up for pre and tourney fishing. Fishing with and sharing info with an extended group of pros. If Pro A, is on the fish day one or prefishing and tells all his or her partner pros where, when, how and why and they follow Is it still tailpiping???? As far as that goes is it unethical to fish a spot you didn't find ???? Or is that all part of information and intelligence gathering, that doesn't stop even after the tourney starts?? Kind of like the last time you were pleasure fishing, saw a crowd and cruised over to see what is going on.
While guiding it is very common for strangers or people you know to copy and follow what you are doing and even more common for your next trolling run to be blocked by boats at all the spots you just caught fish. How's that different???
Don't remember ever tailpiping, do remember being told by, and telling partner pros exactly where, when, what, how and why. Not to sure I won't "tailpipe" in the future. The one thing I do think is needed in walleye tourneys is a minimum distance rule..... as in stay out of a 50ft circle rule. Marker bouy or anchored. This or something similar is already the case in some of the Bass tourneys .
04-08-2004, 07:14 AM
Just another observation. Business B sees Business A move into a new sector or market successfully and follows. In business that's just business, in the tournament fishing business thats unethical???
I was disgusted to have day one leader at Spring Valley tell me that he wasn't even able to get to his first day best spot, but I was also disgusted to here a Pro say I know how and where, but even though I have pre-fished in this area "I won't go in there because people will think I'm tailpiping." The fact whether we like it or not is that this is a business, but we treat it like it is a hobby/as in knitting.
Yeah pushing someone off a spot is wrong, but is getting there first the next day?? Yes driving between a boat and the shoreline they are casting from 30 feet away is wrong, but how about making a trolling pass 30 feet behind them. Unfortunately what this all comes down to is not who is the most "PURE", but as a past tourney director one thing it does come down to is that if there is no tourney rule, law, Coast Guard or fishing regulation against it, then it isn't cheating. If it isn't cheating then it is legal and most would say only a fool would not do it, if they are there to win a competition.
Some would call this all about Sportsmanship, but where does the line get crossed without a rule or regulation to cover it.
If you think something should be illegal or against the rules then you should discuss it with those in control and ask if they intend to include it in the rules in the future. If not you probably shouldn't fish that series.
04-08-2004, 08:03 AM
I agree with Jack Dunn just to bad there are not more "pro's" like that.
04-08-2004, 08:03 AM
It is common for pro's to work together and share info. At the PWT events, they are even told that they may not share or use any info they get after the tourney starts, from fellow pro's, or even local people. Even though that is said, it has not stopped any of it from continuing to happen.
What is bad, and happens alot more often than you might know, is that some of these "teams" that share info, and work together, also take a spot over during a tournament and intentionally force others off the spots and hold them off while they as a group fish it. They predominatly do it trolling, and call it rounding the wagons. They slowly edge you off a spot, and then they methodically prevent you from getting back in for a trolling pass over that spot. It's all done by plan, and with design, and these guys are notorious for doing it day two if they did not have fish of their own on day one!
04-08-2004, 08:16 AM
You mean there are rules saying that pro's are NOT supposed to share information after the tournament has started? Ha ha ha ha yeah right!!
My day 2 pro @ an RCL tourney said he had to give his "teammate" some gps spots so he could get in on the fish, since he hadn't on day 2. Rules right!! ha ha ha ha
04-08-2004, 08:22 AM
the rules you mention are in place in the RCL.
04-08-2004, 08:46 AM
Thanks for the voice of reason. I totally agree with you. I have mentors and great friends that I respect dearly in the high ranking tournament series'. Their perspectives on this situation are identical to yours and mine.
IMHO, every time this type of discussion comes up, I hear the same people coming up with (IMHO) shallow reasoning.
I have suggested a small solution in the past that doesn't get much agreement. My idea would start a different type of mindset and isn't 100% foolproof (or unethical proof ;-) ). I would suggest that people entering a tournament be required to submit a list of GPS coordinates that they plan on fishing. They can only fish those locations unless given valid reasoning to alter those plans. With the new technology being implemented this year in the RCL with the "electronic monitors" in the boat, I would think that it would be easy to track the location of a boat and check to see if they are on a submitted spot.
I know that the argument with this solution deals with changing conditions and the ability of the fisherman to alter plans to react to those changing conditions. That's where the it would be necessary for an alteration of coordinates to the director if its deemed a valid request. If a person shows up at a location with 10 other boats and its not in the submitted GPS plan and they have not asked for a change in that plan they are disqualified.
Technology may offer a solution to this known problem. It just needs to be tweaked.
I will never accept the argument that the smart Pro reacts to visual clues while on the water and one of those visual clues is a cluster of boats. I have only shared one story with you of the ugliness of the tournament game. In my mind this is a legit concern. Just the fact that it keeps coming up indicates that there is a problem.
Flame away folks but please keep my ethnic heritage out of the conversation ;-)
Sharing information while on the water during tounament hours is not permitted in any tournament that I've fished or know of, but I don't know of any rule preventing teams to get together in the evening after day 1 or 2 to talk over plans for the next day.
No Good Answer
04-08-2004, 12:19 PM
But a sucessful 'pro' adapts to changing conditions which may necessitate a change from the plan in place the morning of day one.
I don't believe in following, but I reserve the right to make decisions on the water and not be locked into something that may not be working come tournament time.
04-08-2004, 12:22 PM
The "team" approach in an "individual" sport is the most troubling aspect of the professional circuits.
Why? There is no declaration in the rules that it must be an individual effort and that information sharing is not allowed out of fishing hours.
04-08-2004, 07:02 PM
" At the PWT events, they are even told that they may not share or use any info they get after the tourney starts, from fellow pro's, or even local people."
I never mentioned the RCL, there IS a big difference between the two!
The "wagon train" runs on the RCL curcuit!
04-08-2004, 07:14 PM
I agree with the fifty foot circle rule.Follow who you want, fish where you like,move when you want, just keep your distance and all is fair.If you keep your distance from a bouy or an anchored fisherman I don't think there can be any complaints.I believe most walleye fishermen know the difference fifty feet can make as far as being successful or not.
I believe the biggest conflict is between a troller and a fisherman who is fishing a small area.I can understand a troller being upset when a jig fisherman or live bait guy pulls in behind his boat and parks where he just caught a fish.I can also understand a jig fisherman getting upset when a troller tries to horn in on his area.
Maybe they need trolling only tournaments???
04-08-2004, 08:19 PM
Very good Lawrence, couldn't have said it better.
04-08-2004, 11:19 PM
I fully understand your point, and can accept that if you as a pro have done your homework.
What I'm trying to say is this. In my experience tournament fishing, I have learned, as have many of the true pro's, to watch the weather for a week or two before any tournament, and plan your pre-fishing around those possibilities for weather during the tournament. If I know there is a cold front coming (N-NW winds) and it may hit during the tourney, I will scout, and pre-fish those areas that I would be fishing during a cold front, so if in deed it arives, I'm prepared and ready to fish where I have already pre-fished. Same thing for a warm front approaching (W-SW winds), I will scout and pre-fish those waters I would anticipate the fish to be at during the tourney. That way I am prepared to the best of my ability. Once the tournament starts, those are the waters I will hang my hat on, and if I'm right, and have scouted and prepared myself correctly, GREAT!, but if I errored in my planning, and don't do well, I have to accept that also, and learn from it and try not to do that again.
I am not going to improve myself as a pro if all I do is fish where other people are showing me the fish. That is what the co-angler is supposed to experience, not the pro!
04-09-2004, 08:16 AM
That was a good one, made me laugh:)
04-09-2004, 03:02 PM
I like to show up the day before the tournament! This way I have no idea of where I'm going to fish,I just pick out the guys that always do well. I know they are on fish or atleast have a good spot. I just go until I find them. On day two I find the pack,Knowning that the leader is close by. I figure that I'm a better fishermen than he is,so I get in there and show him. I can get a check most times and save tons on gas and lodging.I don't care what others think of me,I payed my money and they don't own the water. I can get away with this just by saying that I have fished there in in the past or that I knew this was a good spot.I know that some have a problem with this, they are the sameones that have a problem with me playing golf and hitting up on the group in front of me. I know that they payed their money also and could see my actions as unethical but screw them I'm the only one that matters.
I have saved thousands in expenses over the rest of the field!I find that when I don't go to the pack on day two that I don't usually do very well.I sometimes pre fish a lake,but when I can't get anything going I go for a ride to find the guys that are doing well. Overall I find I am a much better fishermen on the second day of a tournament! The heck with everyone else,I am the only anger that matters. You maybe leading or there maybe a small group of you on the fish but you can bet I'll be there on the second day!
See ya on the water (your spots of course)
Well said!! I just thank God that I don't think like that and that I'd rather lose than do crap like that all for a buck.
04-09-2004, 04:02 PM
Same old mafia don attitude dividing up the turf!
Big difference in your sarcastic analogy is the golf course owns the land your swinging that club on. Unless there is a rule in the tournament itself, it is not illegal to follow the leader on public domain.
And if someone feels that confident with this tactic, think he/she should knock him/herself out. But it will be a bitter pill to swallow should you fail to find the leader and/or fail to know the intimacy of the bite.
Oh brother is all I can say about not being able to fish areas you know about from fishing it in the past. Just shaking my head imagining everyone cashing a check taking a lie detector test about whether they have prefished the area within the week. Pathetic.
Please try again...
04-10-2004, 06:44 AM
I find it very easy to follow the leaders. I watch to see which way they go and find them.I could also careless if the lake or any other thing is public property or not.The tournament is all about how I end up not what others think.I need to make a name for myself!I will,as long as I do what ever it takes!This will include finding the leader when ever possible!We fish lakes where the presentations are easy,finding the fish and the right ones is the hard part.I used to find my own fish but others followed me so I figure its happened to me so I have the right to do the same.
I will be a big time household name in the not to distance future.Sponsors will be lining up to sign me to the big contracts.Now I know what you think,but this is public waters and I feel that I can do what I want. Sportsmanship and ethics DO NOT play a part in tournaments,I do what is good for me!I payed to enter, this gives me the right to do as I feel,the water is public property!I will always argue with anyone that feels different than I do,your just jealous and should do as I do if you really want to be someone.I know some of you are great fishermen and find fish,but you are going to have to deal with guys like me so just get used to it.
Please don't be a whinner or complain about my practice,this is the only way I know how to become successfull.I feel I have the tools to compete with anyone out there,I can catch fish as long as you show me where they are.I'm looking forward to fishing along side alot of this year!
See you at the next event (Hope your spot will hold through the event) Please feel free to just look me at the the meeting and tell me your on good fish,it will save me time finding you!
How about banning pre-fishing for 30 days before the tournament? You can still learn the water well beforehand, but won't be able to 'stake claim' to any spots. Pre-tournament research would play the most important roll - maps and historical data. Weather and water conditions leading up to day one will drive your first decision when integrated with your previous research.
Wouldn't this eliminate some of these complaints?
04-10-2004, 10:02 AM
That would be a solution, as well as only have one day events.
But with some of the anglers I have met this past year, they are just the kind of people who would find some other excuse to cover for a bad performance, and use any means necessary to impede other, more legitimate fisherman, from doing their best.
This thread is becoming boring and redundant...
04-10-2004, 12:38 PM
I love the posts,I hear the same old stuff everytime this comes up.The same guys saying the same lame excuses for what they do and why.I always love the one that "I prefished there" if you indeed did prefish an area and caught fish why were'nt you there on day one?I can drive through areas as I prefish,see who is there and mark where they are on my GPS.I have now prefished that area!The joke is that some will never see anything wrong with their actions in tournaments.I dont care if you "prefished" an area,if you did prefish why were'nt you there from the start?
I once had a guy tell me (on day two) that he caught fish in an area prefishing.Only problem was he blanked on day one,why did'nt you fish this spot on day one if you knew it had fish when you blanked?The answer I got was I had another spot that was also holding fish and better ones!I don't know about anyone else but that seemed odd to me,would'nt you leave and get your fish then return to the area to see about those better ones?
I would love to sit in a group of anglers before an event and talk about this very thing.People are getting used to the fact that ethics and sportsmenship don't play a role in their decisions.I in fact believe that anglers who practice poor ehtics do so to make up for there lack of knowledge.I know that there are few secrect spots anymore,but you need to find the fish to win!This is done by doing your homework and fishing the areas.I hate hearing that "This area always holds fish" this only seems to happen on the second day of the tournament.You can get up in front of everyone and tell them how you did well,fact is you just went in on the guy that figured things out for you.
As for the IL. river event,it was sad at best to see the leaders that found a bite in very poor condictions,get invaded the way they did.You can say anything you want about that spot,but you followed if you were not there on day one!The bite was tough for all,so what gives anyone the right to get right in on the leaders? NOTHING!! The actions there were the worst I have ever seen,I was embarassed to call myself a tournament angler.This is not what I invisioned when I started out in this.I will not name names here,but I will say I am very disappointed with some people that I held in a higher standard.I do however give props to guys like Tom G and Mark C. and Pete H. you guys figured things out for the tournament.I am sorry that this is the new way of fishing.I hope that the PWT does in fact clean up this S$#@ and makes a point of making examples of the guys doing this.Its sad to see what started as great anglers seeing who really is the best,to who has the balls to do what ever it takes to win.Who is the best these days?I could'nt tell you,but I know who will do anything to place or win.
The anglers in tournaments are suppose to be held to higher standards,your in the public eye.Look at the pictures from days one and two and the difference in the number of boats.Waterways are public Mr.Larson but that has nothing to do with ethics or doing the right thing.I can cheat on my taxes and say everyone else is doing it.I have NO respect for opinion on this matter,you are one of the guys that will do anything to get your name out there.Your actions show everyone of your ethics,and then you have the balls to print it also.As for the guy that posted about Pete being pushed out of his spot,No he did'nt have a sign up!He should'nt have to,it was his from the start (all of day one).Only to go back on day two to 20 boats bumping each other to get in on the "Pot of Gold".I would love to here why you would not have a problem doing this.
Buck up guys and take it like a man when your not good enough to find your own fish and win or place,DON"T FOLLOW or go in on the guys that did something you could'nt (FIND FISH).
SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS THESE DAYS.
Embarrassed Fishermen - Tour angler.
04-10-2004, 02:36 PM
Dragging me through the mud will do nothing to stop this trend. I am not, and have never, condoned tailpiping. NEVER!
But with the ever higher cost to compete and the HUGE amount paid to the winners of these events, ITS GOING TO HAPPEN!
So grow up and get over it.
04-11-2004, 06:36 AM
I'm sorry Rick,but you are in this class.You post everytime this comes up,always having a problem with posters that don't agree with you.You also had that poll last fall about it.You can post your thoughts and everyone is suppose to agree with them,well I don't an never will!
This sport has its problems,many these days.I would like to see it cleaned up.Every single rules book has the part about"Sportsmenship" and ethical behavor on and off the water.I wonder what you think they are talking about? Is it ethical to go in on a pack,or follow the leader? Is it sportsmenship when you zero on day one and happen upon the guys that limited? The story remains the same the problems only seem to happen on day two.They have a prefishing time,thats the time before the event not the second day.I have never fished an area that I did not prefish,even if I thought fish were always there!During a tournament you only have so much time each day to get it done.I would not consider wasting time on something that I did'nt prefish.LEAVE earlier and get another day or two to prefish all your spots.Game plans are what wins tournaments not fishing on a whim.I would never assume a spot that I did'nt prefish as a go to spot if I have nothing going.This public water thing really PIS@#$@# me off.Your fishing for money here not for fun,in no way does this give anyone the right to do these things.Anyone can make up excuses for why they did something,blame your partner or the weather or your trolling motor went out.Facts are still the same,same people showing up on the leading pack on day two.I guess you think that they just seem to always happen upon this?I'm not trying to single you out here but your always defending poor ethical behavior,which to me is a sign that you would do such things.
This time I got the last word,which rarley happens with you.
04-11-2004, 09:17 AM
This post above is exactly the attitude I am speaking of. Anyone still interested, just reread this post, highlighting a few points.
1. Tournament fishing is not for fun.
2. Poster is angry that the water is publically owned.
3. Other than the first 2 boaters on a spot, every other boater
joining is now considered unethical.
4. Poster is confusing rights with privileges.
5. As an anonymous post, this opinion is subject to scrutiny as such.
6. Says he doesn't mean to single me out? Good Lord!
This is the sad state of affairs found in the tournament arena. It is the old guard that has continually intimidated newcomers into submission by these threats of singling out individuals with false accusations to stifle competition.
Since you so bravely asked these questions and I have answered, please could you so kindly answer mine. How can a newcomer know who the leaders are if they don't know who anybody is? And just who do you speak of that doesn't pre-fish and just follows the leaders to their spots on day 2? And how can this ever be considered a winning strategy anyway?
I do not think following leaders will ever be a successful strategy, but realize that this action can never be fairly regulated. Under pressure of high boat payments and the chance to win the big prize and gain relief, people will make these mis-guided decisions. Instead of acting like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum, maybe it would be better if you had more than one spot to fish.
As long as 'indusrty men' continue to encourage individuals to spend every cent they have and go in debt 15 years because they can win the big prize, or be the one-in-a-thousand that makes a living in the industry, there will be followers.
And I contend these followers are really only following the followers who know not that the fish will bite on "THEIR" spot the 2nd day...
please tell us
04-11-2004, 09:53 AM
Answer the #1 question ask "What do you think they are talking about in the rules book when they speak of sportsmenship & ethics".
Singling you out was based on what your comments are when this topic comes up.I'm quite sure your not the only one here that applies to this subject.
Reading these posts,I see that you either think that these things are not happening or that since you can't stop it then its OK.I somethimes also wonder where you are going with this?People want things fixed and you degrade them with all your mumbo jumbo about "its not in the rules" or "the waters are public". Please tell us all what public waters and sportsmenship& ethics have incommon?
This poll tells me what people think on this subject,your in the minority on this one as I read it.I also don't see where people are whinning when they bring up things that could be fixed.Common sense goes along way in life and we would all be better off if in fact we would just us it more often.
04-11-2004, 10:37 AM
Well, that is a bit more reasonable and allow me to concede a point. If there is a solution, then let it be implemented. I can go along with the crowd if it works.
But there are questions that must be answered in the solution:
1. Do the leaders get a flag or some other distinquishing feature to show everyone who they are?
2. Up to what place do you consider one to be a 'leader'?
3. Just how far must someone stay from the leaders should you have pre-fished the area within a pre-determined timeframe.
4. If one can not go into the leaders spot, is it also fair that they can not allow team mates to go in as well?
5. And how in the sam firey hot place are you going to enforce any of these rules in a place like Spring Valley with 2 big time tournaments going on in the same week?
I suspect that if these rules were implemented, you whiners will only shift your focus to another rule to furthur stifle those who you view as a threat to beat you in competition.
See where I am going now?
04-11-2004, 12:55 PM
rick there are many who feel as you. thereis reasons why a few always seem to be on the top. cause the rules get scewed in favor of them. let there be fair competition each day of the tournament and not allow the leaders to hoard first dya spots. its getting so tournaments ought to just drop the second and third day cause the leaders won';t let anyone in anyway.
Ican see by the poll who the real leaders are and who the followers are.
thinking out loud
04-11-2004, 03:51 PM
I think if you were'nt there the first day you don't belong on the second.Simple to inforce that!Your milk run on day one should include your best spots on day one so day two should be no different.
04-11-2004, 05:56 PM
I'd have to say it's unethical, and I've seen and talked to guys who said they found where the leaders were fishing, and went there, and the Day 1 leaders started to catch fish, so the people I knew who were fishing by the leaders decided to pack up and move down out of their way. Now thats sportsmanship. I know it's tempting to follow and or fish by the leaders, but give them their space, they're working just as hard as you, and everyone else.
04-12-2004, 03:44 PM
Thinking out loud,that sounds good until you try to plan a stratagy based on your starting possition. Think of it this way. Say you draw boat number 200. There are 199 boats leaving in front of you. You might have the fastest rig on the water but there is no way you are going to be able to pass enough boats to get in on this small spot you and about half the feild knows about. There are some other spots you know you can catch fish, but they have not been the quality that they are at the small spot. Your next best spot would be taking you in the other direction. You may be able to squeeze in at the end of the day at the small spot, but will have to make a long run to get there and it might not be worth the lost fishing time.
Now after the weighins you learn that 8 of the top 10 were fishing the small spot and they all have boat numbers of 30 or less. You also hear boat number 50 saying that they were blocked off the spot because they could not get in on the small spot they could only manage 2 bites and only one fish measured. Now you are in the middle of the field after day one because you chose to get fish that you knew you could get in on to catch and passed on the spot holding the best fish you found in practice.
On day 2, the field reverses order and for the sake of argument you are the first boat out. You have to make the decision where to go. You can be the first boat in on the small spot, but you didnot fish it on day 1. If you had drawn a low boat number you would have, but that was not the case. You decide to race to "your" best spot. Shortly after getting there the spot fills in and all other boats are blocked out. A little later you hear the guys in boat 50 grumbling about being blocked out again. You then see half of the leaders come to the spot to find out they cannot get in and eventually leave.
Now you go to the weigh-in. you have a good bag of the quality fish you knew were there and you move into the top 5. You set up a good stratagy based on the condition of your boat number and used what you learned at practice to find good day one and day 2 spots.
Now the kicker, you are now a tailpiper. I don't think so.
thinking out loud
04-12-2004, 04:50 PM
RARLEY if ever does this happen! One spot in a whole system holds all the good fish and its so small that over the course of a day you can not get in! I do on river systems play the boat number game and have never had a problem! Case in point 2002 IL. river the big bags came from one area,day one I'm number 150.I get there and there are 20 boats,no problem I work on the inside and get 2 nice males.I know that the females are just out from them in the pack of boats,I wait find my opening and get in. Day 2 I'm one of the first boats there, the boats keep coming and coming now there is 60 boats bouncing off of each other. In the end 6 of the top ten were there both days,2 others had fairly good weights on day one and got in on day 2. The winners were there from start to finish.
Now the way things are is to get in on the leaders, day one Il. River 6 boats on the area all day, day 2 half the field.200 yard stretch of good fish,yet guys did'nt fish the area on day 1.
Sorry but your thoughts don't hold water on most if not all tournaments.I have fished all over the country in large fields and have never been to a bite like your talking about.All I ever see is the same thing, guys finding the leaders and going right in on them.
This is why I say it would very easy to police the "If your not there on day 1 you better not be there on day 2" I know this will work, but I know that in some cases like a huge change in weather things might be different. In that case the leaders won't be in the same area as day one anyway.
04-12-2004, 07:03 PM
Ha! Gr8 is absolutely correct in his thinking! Your starting position is very revelant in how one should approach a day of fishing. And then add the weather. Many times while fishing on 'Bago have I switched tactics in the middle of the day because of a changed weather pattern.
And I'll tell you spot huggers something, even if I hadn't pre-fished an area the week before, and knew the fish would stack up on the spot because of the weather, I don't care who is there (well, maybe if Powers is there I'll not) - cause I am going to fish it.
How you going to stop me? :::::::::::::::-)
04-13-2004, 08:45 AM
Maybe we should just do the NASCAR thing and duke it out in the parking lot. The pipers know who they are and will continue to to pipe no matter what anyone says. Maybe a punch in the mouth is what's required because for more than 11 years it goes on day after day. No matter what the organizers say or preach it goes on. I've heard of competitors publically identifying leaders spots to cause the crowds to appear.
04-13-2004, 01:29 PM
Yes Sunshine, right in the rule book, don't believe I said the RCL didn't have it .... just passing on a HINT about Using it and enforcing it............
04-13-2004, 01:48 PM
Actually the most troubling part about Pro tourneys is that somehow, somewhere, spectators and some Pros??? Changed these events from competitions to display of hospitality cloaked in the theme of sportsmanship. I learned that lesson long ago... In the midwest when you race sports cars if you smudge the other guys wax job you are in big trouble. In the south in the same sanctioning body... three of you go into the corner togehter and whoever comes out does and whoever doesn't doesn't wine . Maybe that's where some of us midwesterner walleye fishermen and spectators put together this white gloved approach.
Again if it isn't breaking a tourney rule, against a fishing or Coast Guard regulation or Law then it is fair game. And no I don't think some of the things here are covered by sportsmanship. Do I think anyone can be successful in this Business always following the crowd, no way... do I think any one in this Business can be successful without using every bit of legally aquired intelligence that they can collect ... probably not on their own...
Just the Opinions of one Wannabee
count me in
04-13-2004, 02:04 PM
Sounds good,I'm in no guns just fistacuffs! I making a list as we speak of the first guys that are in need of pop in the chops!LOL!!!! Do we do this after the 2nd day or just get it over with at the start? LOL!
04-13-2004, 02:45 PM
At what point did Dale Earnhart Sr(Goodwrench # 3), go from being one of the most hated, roughest driving, fender banging, bumper ramming,worst driving bad guy ..... to one of the most beloved race car drivers of all time??????? You don't need to "Cheat" or break the rules, but it is either a competition or it is a church social(of which I attend plenty).
Lot's of local folks here don't understand what I mean when I say tourney fishing is a whole different critter than pleasure fishing or even my guiding business. I honestly believe many tournament anglers and certainly many spectators don't either. Certainly fishing skill plays into it, but intelligence gathering and strategy plays a huge part. And frankly understanding the limits of the rules does also.
Will somebody please explain what is unethical about doing your job to the best of your ability in all aspects????
My comments probably offend some and surprise many because I am usually the voice of reason and calm, but Pro Fishing on any level other than no money clubs in my Opinion is not a tiddly winks contest it is the Friday night fights.. If it isn't against the rules I don't have a problem if you do it to me,(Some of you have), so don't have a problem with me doing it to you..
I'm not stupid, I know some of you probably posted here just to bring a black eye to the sport in general and my continuing to post,(as is often the case here with anonymous posters),played into your hands by continuing it. But there are two things in life I just can't stand... folks who accuse folks by name without ever witnessing the offense,(another post), mostly because if you follow the common threads through many of those posts they couldn't stand the "Heat" and secondly trying to paint picture of something as something it is not...ie.. it is either a social event or it is a competition.. Let's be honest much of the tourneys are a social event, but when the Competition starts is it business not a SE.
I'll trust the tournaments and the directors and a majority of fellow competitors to tell me and others when we have crossed the line. Again if I don't match your opinion I'm not sorry , but this is America, and you have the right to your opinion also. Just like I don't have to compete where I don't like the deal, neither do you. But please don't try to take ownership of something you aren't even competing in. I'm not kiding anybody here, I am a Tripple AAA tourney, big time tourney wannabee, poorboy who has always had good fishing partners to carry him??? I put my money where my mouth is, and frankly I would feel cheated if others didn't compete as fiercely as they can, without breaking the rules.
04-13-2004, 04:17 PM
First off, I want to make it perfectly clear that I would never follow another boat to their spot when fishing a tournament. I only fish a few (Otter street, Fleet Farm, and maybe a couple smaller ones this year), but, like you, I find it a little troubling that so many people think so little of sportsmanship and so much of the almighty dollar.
That said, I understand what your trying to do with the GPS idea, but I don't consider it a workable solution. Fish on Winnebago move too much and conditions change too quickly for 300+ boats to all call in and check for permission to try a spot not previously on their list. Plus, if you used the marine band to ask for permission on a new spot, you just alerted every knothead on the lake as to where you want to fish. And to me, cell phones are the root of much of this evil.
I do wish something would be done about this, but I'm not sure what it should be. Banning cell phones from the boat? Getting a few tournament directors to address anglers that seem to be skirting the spirit of the rule? Truth be told, I don't think anything will change until more anglers want this to change.
04-14-2004, 09:54 AM
OK, I just changed my mind on this subject!