SLAP! - Take that America!

[Terroreyes]

Did anyone else get hit with a big increase in the price of gas? So much for trying to fight back with a boycott. Got a 13 cent increase overnight here. Filled up Tuesday for $2.06, same price yesterday. $2.19 everywhere today. Talk about squashing the little guy and flexing your corporate muscle. Looks like big oil wants a war vs. the American people and I think it's about time we really gave it to them. Let's get these fools we elected to stand up for the people who put them in office not for the people buying their ads!

One good thing was that I saw 1 single car getting gas yesterday on the way to work out of 5 stations I pass, and there's usually at least 4 or 5 cars at each.

[br][div align="center"][br][center][br][font color="#3300CC";font face="Roman"; size="+2"][b][br][br]Terror - [font color="red";font face="Webdings"; size="+3"]NN

[bigfish1965]

It just hit 3 bucks here....have fun!

[MarkG]

Where is "here" ???

[Limiterr]

We're at .97 Can per litre. About $4 Can per US gallon. Thats about $3 per US gallon. This is in Thunder Bay ON One 5 Gallon Can is about $25 with the oil. OUCH

[RANGER]

Ya' know, if we boycotted for a WEEK THAT would have an impact! One day? You're spitting in the wind 'cause: folks' will fill up the day before or the day after ;-) !!

[Trophy]

Makes you want to revisit those simpler times in our lives don't it? Remember those nights of sitting on river bank tightlinning for Catfish? Catching farm pond Bass. Those are the precious times in most of our lives, and we all have a tendancy to forget how much fun we really had back then. Most of us have the equipment we could only dream about back then,but has it made it any more fun than it use to be? I have made the decision to spend less time on my boat this year due to gas prices, and get back to the basics, and enjoy the simpler side of fishing.

[marcbodi]

Hi,
When I was young I fished for Cats and Bullheads on the bank of the Maumee river .To got back to just that kind of fishing I would rather stick needles in my eyes.
May I be fishing somewhere Tomorrow

[The Democrat]

Why don't you write a letter to President Bush asking him to have Ashcroft's anti-trust boys investigate the oil companies. haw! haw! haw!

As for me, I think I'll call my broker and buy some Exxon stock.

[flyfishnv]

Not buying gas for a day only delays purchases. If we really want to get the oil companies'attention, we all need to not drive for a day or two. Walk, bike or take public transportation. That'll hit em in the pocketbook and maybe they'll stop gouging us.
Ron

[bladerunner]

Still not as bad as the late 70's & early 80's when the price of gas, adjusted for 2004 $$, was around $3.26 a gal. Ever since oil was discovered in the middle east, we have been getting screwed around. Despite all else, we have an oil barron family in office (in bed w/ special interests) that isn't willing to touch the reserves (it is an election year & undoubtedly he will do something about this around Nov.). On the local front, our wonderful Gov. Granholm will not lower the state sales tax to help alleviate the burden. Corporations are not the only ones to blame. For gripes sake, she wanted to increase the "sin tax" on cigs to help w/ the budget defecit. If wasteful govt. spending was curtailed we wouldn't need to alienate certain voters to allegedly help others.

[The Democrat]

That "wasteful government spending" pays for schools and highways, among other things.

[Crappie Kid]

Milk is over $3 a gallon.

[DaneVike]

Maybe I didn't understand you correctly or maybe you are being sarcastic but I had to look twice at your post. How does "wastefull spending" pay for anything?

[Bryan Urblacher]

On a business show on cable this am, there was a report about the number "2". It seems that in the advertising world, and most specifically to those gas price signs along the road at gas stations, there is a growing demand to make more of the plastic number 2 and increasingly the number 3.........sounds like 3 will be in wide-spread use before too long. 54

[bladerunner]

The "waste" I'm reffering to is the $27 million that has been given to Iraq over the last 4 yrs in order to subvert the Saddam regime. Besides, the "highway repairs budget" here in MI is $247 million leaner due to the Gov of this state killing the funding, keeping thousands of MI workers from working. How about the $62.6 Billion that has been given to Columbia & Mexico over the yrs to fight a so-called drug war that has had NO effect on stemming the flow of drugs in this country. OR... how bout the billions (lost count @ around a kazillion dollars) that was given to Afghanistan to fight the Russian invasion in the 80's that inevitably the Bush admin has tried to do the same (control the insurgency) more recently. OR... how bout the billions funneled to Iran (the Iran/contra scandel) back in the day to help fight the war between them & Iraq (the irony of things, ah?)... THAT wasteful spending is what I'm referring to. Domestic issues (like the issue in question) should take precedent!! My .02

(All else aside Dem. I agree & respect some of your views most of the time)

[jajay]

Are you better off today than you were 4 years ago? The old man did it, and now the son. Can't wait for one of the other relatives!!!

[sib]

Ask and ye shall receive.

I filled up on the 19th, I figured they wouldn't raise their price until the 20th. That whole boycott thing on the 19th was based on such faulty logic, that I had to fill up on the 19th. The folks buying into the 19th boycott were begging to be have the price raised on the 20th. It was rather predictable.

I'm all for getting the price of gas back down to a more acceptable rate, but any organized effort has to be built on solid logic. As it was I saved money on gas, by filling up on the 19th.

[Teddy]

I don't drink 10 to 20 gallons of milk a day!!! Apples and oranges.

[Sig]

Maybe it's time to take energy away from the private sector. Create a dept. of energy and let them run it. Face it, they can run it up to $3, $4, or $10 dollars a gallon and what are you going to do about it?! Greed it raising it's ugly head!

[tbomn]

No, as a matter of fact I have not had a raise in my salary for over 4 years, and yet the cost of living and existing in this country has skyrocketted. I think anyone that has worked for the public would agree with me. The public employee, as well as many other professions have not kept up with the cost of living. Fact is that business can pass the costs on to the public, yet those of us that rely on tax dollars for our living have lost because of the "No new taxes" stand of the policy makers. Has the increase of 30% in gas prices hurt, you bet it has, as well as the 47% increase to me for my health insurance over the last 3 years. All of this, and I can still laugh about it because I feel that I live in the best country in the world, and I love it. Yet, it is getting harder to make things work on the money side of things.

[Cooker]

The administration is not to blame for the higher prices. A few weeks ago it was secret deals to keep the prices low, now it is secret deals to increase prices. The bashing just seem to blow with the wind.

Wasteful spending refers to the stupid pet projects (including some social programs) that are being paid for - not legitimate school and highway spending. An example is a $25 million Rain Forest that is going to be built in Iowa. How many pay raises could be given with this money alone. Why is the answer always to increase taxes rather than insisting on cutting spending. If you over extend yourself, the way out is to quit spending as much money. The answer is not to walk across the street and demand that your neighbor pays for your stuff.

Tapping the Strategic Reserve is not the answer. We are at war and should not be messing with it. The "proposed" solution by some Dems is to release 60million barrels. This would last a few days at best and would have no impact on the price of gas.

[sib]

I don't see greed, not when you look into the issue. The fact is:

We have less refineries than we did only a few years ago.

and

There is more demand for oil than at anytime in this planets history. China's demand for oil in the past few years has increased at an incredible rate. This demand (oil is a commodity) raises the price of oil.

Certainly, OPEC manipulates production, but what drives the price of oil is the demand.

[sevenmmm]

>Why don't you write a letter to President Bush asking him to
>have Ashcroft's anti-trust boys investigate the oil companies.
> haw! haw! haw!
>
>As for me, I think I'll call my broker and buy some Exxon
>stock.


Gee Whiz Dem, think it would be very hard for big old bloated Exxon to double your money.

Better to buy a lean mean small company that manufactures photoelectric panels, or wind turbines. Maybe even take a flyer on a company on the cutting edge of that hydrogen technology.

EXXON? These guys will only pay Bush more campaign money...:-)

You never did say you wore entrepeneur jenes!

[Boatnut]

I got diesel at Flying J in Kentucky last week... $1.52 /gallon! was $1.72 back in Ohio.

[JohnG]

As much as I can't stand the current presidential administration, a large part of the blame and responsibility for the solution has to be placed on us, look at what we drive, women driving Ford Excursions to the grocery store and back? Yes, this is America, yes, it is your right, but if you are so quick to say it's your right to do and drive what you want, you better stand up and take responsibility when it starts to affect everyone else, and it has. I just bought my Wife a new Dodge neon yesterday, and next year I'll be selling or trading my 20 foot bass boat with a 200 merc for something smaller with a four stroke. That is my solution, along with making fewer unnecessary trips in the car or truck. Along with encouraging alternative sources of energy, those are the kinds of things we need to do, not boycott gas for one day, only to buy twice as much the day before or the day after.

[The Democrat]

It's certainly possible for "wasteful spending" to buy something. For example, the prop I bent on rocks twice in three days at $50 a pop is an example of wasteful spending that bought something, namely, a repaired prop.

Government budgets are statements of priorities. Obviously, people disagree about what is a priority. In this context, "wasteful spending" expresses a political opinion, not an objective fact. One person's waste is another's necessity, and vice versa. That's why we have elections.

[Brilliant]

You guys crack me up. It is just a simple case of supply and demand. Get the Arabs to start producing more oil or we start using less and the prices go down. Simple economics...

[Terroreyes]

It's not supply and demand! That's what they pump in your head and you've obviously taken the bait. I've worked in the paint and chemical industry my whole life. Some of the solvents are not much different than gasoline and fluctuate daily too. When we order 5000 gallons of a petroleum solvent, the market price the day we order it is the price we pay. There's no fluctuation in price if we still have some in the tank and the market price has doubled since it was filled. The gas prices are and their excuses are nothing more than a scam. When those tanks are filled, that's a set price. They're only loss is if the market goes down and a competitor has filled after the market fell. Right now, they're all getting rich on you're wallet! I'd sure like to see some of the minutes from the petroleum indrustries meetings! Oh, yeah, that's right, the Cheney syndrome is running rampant these days! You'll never hear a word until it's long over and done with.
[br][div align="center"][br][center][br][font color="#3300CC";font face="Roman"; size="+2"][b][br][br]Terror - [font color="red";font face="Webdings"; size="+3"]NN

[walleye-o-nator]

It's all too obvious what the problem is. America is too dependant on foriegn oil, and that keeps the money pouring out of our pockets. Years ago we quit harvesting our own oil because the prices from elswhere were too cheap to compete. We shut down our drilling rigs, fired everyone operating them and played right into the hands of the forigners. I can't see blaming republicans for the gas prices, if anything its the tree hugging democrats fault. We should have been drilling our trillions of barrels of oil we own in Alaska 10 years ago. Its funny how a handfull of environmentalist whackos can keep you paying a hefty price at the pump, isn't it?

[bladerunner]

Those "tree hugging whackos" are the reason that over 70% of the rainforest (majority of the reason you are able to breath) is still intact. if more people were more concerned w/ enviromental issues (clearly your not) we would have a more enviromentally stable planet to live on (i.e cleaner water sources, less land erosion, more diversified animal life, air-quality)... Long live the tree huggers!!

[JohnG]

Amen to that Bladerunner

[The Democrat]

Quit harvesting our own oil? Trillions of oil in Alaska? What have you been smoking?

FACT: We haven't "quit harvesting" our own oil. America is the world's second largest oil producer (only Saudi Arabia produces more than we do). Not in 1940, but TODAY.

FACT: Estimates of ANWR oil reserves range from 5 to 15 billion barrels. ANWR does indeed hold a lot of oil -- it's one of North America's five largest oil fields. BUT (get out your calculator) even assuming the most optimistic scenario, 15 billion would supply U.S. needs for only 23 1/2 months (15 bil. / 21 million bpd / 30.33 days per month). The actual recoverable reserves in ANWR probably are far less than 15 bil. bbl -- more likely ANWR holds a 1 year U.S. supply.

FACT: Petroleum geologists estimate the world's original oil supply -- what nature created -- at 1.9 to 2.1 trillion barrels. Man has used 900 bil. bbl in 150 years, so slightly over half of the planet's oil is still in the ground. At current consumption of 82 mil. bpd we will use up the remaining reserves in 38 to 40 years. What is important to remember, however, is that what is critical to the world economy is not oil but CHEAP oil; and as the readily accessible oil is used up and nations compete for increasingly scarce oil, the era of cheap oil will end long before the last barrel is pumped out. Some experts believe world production will peak, then begin to decline, setting off the inevitable price spike, sometime between 2003 and 2008.

FACT: The planet has been completely mapped with sophisticated satellite and sonar technology, and petroleum geologists believe all of the world's major oil fields have already been found. The last major discovery was in 1970. In other words, there is no prospect of supplementing existing known reserves with new discoveries. Three-fourths of the known reserves are in the Persian Gulf. This means there is only ONE way to eliminate the world economy's dependence on Middle East Oil: By replacing oil with some other energy source.

FACT: The U.S. produces 40 percent of its oil domestically, and imports 60 percent. Three-fourths of U.S. oil imports come from three countries in our own hemisphere: Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Only 15 percent of U.S. oil consumption is imported from the Middle East, all of it from Saudi Arabia. However, the economies of Europe, Japan, and China are dependent on Middle East oil.

FACT: World oil prices are rising because of increased consumption by China, reduced production caused by political turmoil in Venezuela, and a weaker U.S. dollar. Because oil prices are denominated in U.S. dollars, inflation in the U.S. makes a dollar worth less, and forces oil producers to demand more dollars per barrel in order to maintain the same purchasing power of the dollars they receive for their oil. This inflation is caused by deficit spending by the U.S. administration: More dollars chasing the same goods and services = inflation.

FACT: High gasoline prices in the U.S. have several causes. The increase in world oil prices from $32 per bbl to $40 per bbl adds only 19 cents per gallon to the cost of a barrel of crude oil. The actual effect on pump prices is less because these are spot prices but most oil is purchased under long term contracts for less than the world spot price. The main causes of higher U.S. gas prices are increased demand (more vehicles, and more people buying gas guzzlers) and a shortage of domestic refinery capacity. The argument that environmentalists are responsible for not enough refineries doesn't hold water. When did environmentalists ever stop construction of a refinery in Texas? When did Texas run out of land to build refineries on? More telling is Shell's actions in California. When Shell announced plans to close a large refinery in northern California, another company that supplies independent gas stations offered to buy it, but Shell told them no -- the refinery is "not for sale." Shell wants to close it to tighten supply and drive up prices, not because it isn't making money. That purpose would be defeated if someone else operated the refinery. Another problem is the fragmentation of the U.S. market. A lot of U.S. gasoline is now specially formulated for specific markets to meet air pollution requirements, which makes it harder to ship excess supplies from one market to other markets with shortages. You could arguably blame this on environmental laws but which is more important, the price of gasoline, or public health? Air pollution can be deadly. But even if you repealed all the clean air laws, there still would be a shortage of pipeline capacity to move gasoline and other petroleum products between markets.

The oil industry is exceedingly complex. However, one simple and clear fact stands out: The world will run out of oil, not 10 thousand years from now, but in this century. Oil is vital not only a fuel but also for production of chemicals and fertilizers. Will that be the end of mankind? No, because oil substitutes exist, but it could have drastic impacts on the U.S. and world economies if the transition from oil to whatever comes next is managed haphazardly or poorly or not at all. The U.S. has a 500-year supply of coal, and Canada and Venezuela each have tar sands deposits containing more than 3 times as much petroleum as the world's original oil supply. The U.S. has more "shale oil" in Wyoming and Colorado than the Middle East has oil. However, there are severe practical, economic, and environmental issues to overcome before we can tap these fossil fuels. And burning fossil fuels will continue to pose serious environmental issues including global warming. We really should be looking beyond fossil fuels at more advanced energy technologies such as helium fusion.

Don't sell your Ford or Chevy to the scrapyard just yet, the oil industry will be around for a while, and you may even see gas prices come down again in the near term. But the era of cheap oil is nearing its close, and the reality is that if you think $2 gas is bad, wait a decade or two, because "you ain't seen nuthin yet."

[Terroreyes]

Excellent post!
[br][div align="center"][br][center][br][font color="#3300CC";font face="Roman"; size="+2"][b][br][br]Terror - [font color="red";font face="Webdings"; size="+3"]NN

[sevenmmm]

As always Dem, you make your point well.

[bigfish1965]

I'm looking for a new Hydrogen Evinrude!

[firebller]

Dem,

Last summer pundits were worried about the possibility of deflation and how that would have negative effects on our economy. Now we have inflation caused by the current administration's deficit spending. Wasn't there deficit spending last year? What's changed over the last year to this year to cause the flip flop? Oil prices? I'm curious to your thoughts.

fireballer-not logged in

[heathclith]

thats what happens when a texan oil man gets elected to presidency
they feel compeled to help out their fellow texans in the oil buisness

why don't they use some of the vast rteserve they have ?
why don't they get cheaper oil prices from the countries that get so very much support from us ?

[sevenmmm]

To be honest, Bush hasn't much say in the price of oil, other than promoting higher or lower taxes on it.

The real reason for higher prices can be found in rising consumption, shutting down of inefficient oil refineries, and the high cost of building new refineries vs what everyone knows is a point in time where oil will be ever harder to come by.

Sorry to type, but when oil is burned, there is pollution. Think it is great sense to limit it's use through higher prices thus encouraging alternate (wind and solar are free once the initial cost is accounted) fuels that do not pollute.

[Ric]

I think the gov't should subsidize the refineries just like ethanol enough to drive the gas down to maybe five cents a gallon. That way we will all drive huge cars and trucks with little thought to how much fuel we are using. This way we will cause enough pollution to accelerate the greenhouse effect which will make all of the northern states warmer. In turn, our heating bills will be less, and our also our dependance on foreign oil. :)

[The Democrat]

Bush and Cheney both come from the oil industry, and you can be sure their policies are industry-friendly, and that Ashcroft's Justice Department will look the other way at market manipulation. I'd sure like to know what deals were cut in the secret meetings between Cheney and energy industry lobbyists.

But having said this, the fact is, China's economic development is pushing up the demand for oil. The only country pumping at less than full capacity is Saudi Arabia, so they're the guys we have to talk to about making about shortfalls caused by higher demand or production losses in Iraq and Venezuela.

The general public knows little about oil dynamics or what determines pump prices, so it's easy for politicians to blow smoke. Diverting oil from the strategic reserve will do nothing about the forces pushing up prices, and at best is a temporary and short term bandaid. I agree with Bush on this one, we're better off to leave the oil in the reserve, in case OPEC decides to stick it to us. The people blaming Democrats for blocking ANWR development also are blowing smoke. If ANWR drilling had been approved last year, the first ANWR oil would have hit the market sometime around 2010 to 2012, and by then all it will do is replace declining production from the North Slope. I personally support developing ANWR, but whether you support or oppose ANWR, it has no bearing on the immediate situation.

The government really can't have much impact on what you pay for gasoline, at least not short term. I believe we could rewrite the clean air rules to standardize gasoline formulas across the country to a greater degree without sacrificing the basic clean air goals. I can't believe the oil industry doesn't have money to build refineries, that's absurd! I don't want one in my residential neighborhood, but there's plenty of wide open spaces in this country where refineries can be built. Our population is growing, and demand for the product is increasing, so it makes sense that our petroleum infrastructure needs to grow. Yet the number of U.S. refineries is declining, why? Ask the oil companies, not the environmentalists. It's the oil companies who decide whether to build or close refineries.

Even at today's prices, gasoline is cheaper than it was in the 1970s, when adjusted for inflation. I don't like paying the higher prices, but let's face it, we've been riding a gravy train for a number of years now. And what did we do with the cheap gas? Millions of Americans poured it into gas guzzling SUVs and pickups. So guess what, demand went up, and prices went up. Duh. The bright side of this is that if you want a gas guzzler, you should be able to get a late model used one in good condition real cheap by the time gas hits 3 bucks, which it will by July.

[Jet Deck]

It is ironic that you always fail to mention Al Gore's investment interests in Occidental Petroleum and the cause-effect relationship that it has had on our policy towards oil suppliers. Also, I don't read from you about the link between rising oil prices towards the end of the Clinton/Gore administration that were the direct result of Energy Secretary Richardson's meeting with OPEC to urge them to cut supply to prop up the price of oil. Bill Clinton suggested this so Russion oil suppliers could cover their higher cost of production. The economy was slipping towards a recession shortly following. It is a fairly easy timeline to follow. Our current administration has helped to bring the country out of an economic slow-down despite all the efforts of the liberal types to convince the American public on a daily basis that the sky is falling.

FACT: 5 billion to 15 billion additional barrels of oil will have an impact on the price of oil no matter where it comes from. If ANWAR is opened, the oil will flow very quickly.

[Tennessee Jed]

Let's see...when Don the Democrat says:
"The main causes of higher U.S. gas prices are increased demand (more vehicles, and more people buying gas guzzlers) and a shortage of domestic refinery capacity."

You say: "Excellent post."

When a poster named "Brilliant" says:
"You guys crack me up. It is just a simple case of supply and demand. Get the Arabs to start producing more oil or we start using less and the prices go down. Simple economics..."

You say: (And I'm paraphrasing) "You're brainwashed."

I'm a little more confused than usual by this little turn. ;)

Food for thought, here is an old report from California in 1999: http://www.energy.ca.gov/contingency/1999_situation/1999-06-15_sit_report.html In it you will find that for each dollar increase in the price of a barrel of crude, a 2.5 cent increase occurs per gallon of gasoline, which is roughly in line with Don's claim about crude vs. retail costs. However, you will also notice that in spite of the lowest crude price occurring in February, and the highest price for crude occurring in May, the highest retail gasoline prices were in March.

You'll also notice that at one time Alaskan crude was under $10 a barrel! When it hit ~$16/barrel, the retail gas price was 90 cents/gallon in June 1999. It seems reasonable that if it is around $40 a barrel now, the price/gallon would be $2.50-$3.00/gallon, which is where we are.

I remember being in downtown San Francisco just a few months after this report was published, and gas prices were over $2.00/gallon, over twice what it was a mere nine months earlier. Nobody squawked about the president or vice-president being in bed with the oil companies at that time, yet we hear much squawking to that effect today...

It is supply, it is demand. And no, Dick Cheney didn't teach me that; my seventh grade social studies teacher did during the economics portion of the course. ;)

One thing I don't see people complaining about is the local, state, and federal excise taxes on gasoline, which is roughly 35 cents/gallon at $1.20 a gallon, the last time I read the fine print on a pump sticker. Do you think they are seriously interested in developing alternative energy sources when they have a 25% tax basis on something everyone uses? Call me a skeptic, but I don't think so.

[sevenmmm]

>Bush and Cheney both come from the oil industry, and you can
>be sure their policies are industry-friendly, and that
>Ashcroft's Justice Department will look the other way at
>market manipulation. I'd sure like to know what deals were
>cut in the secret meetings between Cheney and energy industry
>lobbyists.

Do you know the meaning of conjecture?


>But having said this, the fact is, China's economic
>development is pushing up the demand for oil. The only
>country pumping at less than full capacity is Saudi Arabia, so
>they're the guys we have to talk to about making about
>shortfalls caused by higher demand or production losses in
>Iraq and Venezuela.

All I ask is if oil producers doubled the production of oil in the next six months, how are they going to refine it for those living in the USA to use in our engines?

Something that I do know for certain. China's demand for steel has pushed the price of it very high. Tripling the price from a few short years ago. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the figures support the same in the oil field.

[The Democrat]

I prefer to think of it as extrapolation. ;-)

[Tracy]

No need for an investigation.... it is all election year politics and a feable attempt by the "democrats to win the Whitehouse! Just wish they would make an effort to get there on there own merit instead of bashing their way along and making us all pay as they go.

Stir... stir... stir!

Tracy

[The Democrat]

It never ceases to amaze me how some people uncritically swallow the myths and half-truths circulated by the right wing propaganda machine.

Yes, there is a Gore family connection with Occidental Petroleum. Big Al's father was a friend of Armand Hammer, Oxy's late chairman, and had a seat on the board of directors. The right wing spins this business relationship into a fable that the Clinton administration made oil prices go up. This is quite a leap of faith across a yawning chasm of illogic. There are several huge problems with it. First of all, Oxy is a minor player on the petroleum stage, and hardly had the power to influence world oil prices. Second, Al Gore's only relationship with the company was a shareholder, and he was not a large one--he owned less than a million dollars of Oxy stock. The right wing myth also assumes (1) Gore dictated Clinton's energy policy and (2) the Clinton administration controlled world oil prices. Ridiculous! A sixth-grader can see through this one.

The Clinton administration did work to prop up oil prices in 1998 -- when oil fell to $10 a barrel because of plummeting demand in the wake of the East Asian economic crisis -- the same has every other U.S. president has done when oil prices collapsed. That's because $10 a barrel oil (in 1998 prices) would devastate U.S. producers, shut down wells all over the world, and increase dependence on Middle East oil, the only place that can produce oil for $1.50 a barrel. By 1999, oil prices had tripled to $30, and Clinton's energy secretary, Bill Richardson, was lobbying the Arabs to raise, not cut, production in order to lower, not raise, prices. The right wing liars want you to believe Clinton's policy was the same when oil was $30 as it was when oil was $10. Even my cats aren't that simple-minded.

Where do you get this nonsense that ANWR oil would flow "quickly?" Good grief, man, that's the ARCTIC. You have to drill exploratory wells, locate the oil, and build a 1,500-mile long pipeline across inhospitable terrain to get it out, in a climate where you can work only a few months of the year. Even the conservative web site linked below says it would take until 2025 to get ANWR production up to 900,000 barrels per day. By the way, it's ANWR -- the acronym for Arctic National Wildlife Refuge -- not "ANWAR."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1101894/posts?page=7

Not surprised you posted anonymously. I wouldn't want my name on your assertions, either.

[Depth Finder]

Think about what you said "Blade"...if we DID have an oil Baron (proper spelling is one "R") and if that oil Baron had the control over those "wascawy" oil folks...wouldn't he be real stupid to let his oil buddies drive the gas and oil prices up when he's trying to get elected again?
You can't have it both ways...either he and Cheney are slick enough to profit from all of this or the oil producers are doing him dirt in an election year.
It's easy to blame Bush and those "wascawy" Republicans for the fact that you can't burn 30 gallons of gas on a weekend terrorizing those fishermen with 10 horse motors who want to fish quietly but you (conveniently) forget the fact that the Dems. and John F Kerry shot down the energy package the pres. proposed including drilling in ANWAR. All he (Bush) would have to do is announce that we're gonna drill in ANWAR and the oil shieks would trip over themselves to drop the price of oil...tomorrow!

[Jeffrey Nihart]

Demand for fuel is rising, but more than half of U.S. refineries have been shut down since 1981. Most refiners that are left are running at 95% capacity
You can thank Nixon for creating the ever expanding EPA bureaucratic mess we are in.
Refiners are spending all of their money just meeting all the new regulations.
They don't have the money for strategic projects to add to their capacity, so it is not surprising that we have to increase the importation of gas.
The United States now imports upwards of 1 million barrels a day of gasoline during peak demands. That is more than twice as much from 20 years ago.
Even the European refiners are having difficulty meeting EPA guidelines for low-sulfur gasoline formulations.
More refineries in America would mean lower costs at the pump and more American workers. IE More American jobs Terror Eyes.

Best Regards,
Jeffrey

[sevenmmm]

Democrat's getting testy!

A sure sign the Presidential Election is drawing closer!!!

[Jet Deck]

It's kind of cute the way you get angry when someone tells the real story about you lefties. Hiding your name calling behind some no-so-cleverly disguised comments about sixth graders and cats. This is the typical democrat (and The Democrat) way to make people believe left-wing information is thruthful compared to the information coming people on the right. I knew you would come across with your standard lefty "right wing propoganda machine" comment. Well, my right wing propoganda machine doesn't disguise itself in the form of nightly news and public TV and radio.

Rick Larson talks about conjecture. No kidding. Bush and Cheney have oil and energy in general in their background's, therefore John Ashcroft is allowing anti-trust laws to be broken????? A leap of faith is right! Democrats ask the American public to make leaps of faith every day. You downplay the Gore role in influencing policy, but almost assert that the Dick Cheney can override a presdential veto. You can't have it both ways. Wait, you can; you're a democrat.

Bill Richardson didn't just "lobby". He had private meetings with the heads of OPEC to drive the cost of oil up. No one in the Clinton administration thought forward to the effects increasing oil prices would have on our country, our economy and the world economy or how foolish is was to ask the Arabs to raise the price of oil when they wanted to anyway.

You might be right about the ANWR thing. I might have been talking out of my butt on that, but I would still maintain that at $40 a barrel, pipelines can get built quickly and lots of drills will be working to find good oil.

Now you can reply with some more name calling.

[The Democrat]

The right wing does indeed have far-flung, well-coordinated, well-financed propaganda machine. Pittsburgh billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife has spent hundreds of millions on gifts to right wing think tanks and media. He was also the money man behind the "Arkansas trooper" fable about Clinton. "Moonie" cult leader Rev. Sun Myung Moon has spent over $1 billion subsidizing his money-losing right wing newspaper, The Washington Times. Talk radio is dominated by right wing mouthpieces who use lies, half-truths, and intellectual dishonesty to propagate myths and misconceptions. Recently, several entire books have been written on this subject.

When I was driving back to Seattle with my new Tuffy musky boat last year, somewhere out in the sagebrush of Wyoming, I was listening to Rush. (It was the only program on the only radio station out there.) His topic of the day was the prescription drug benefit for senior citizens, and he was ranting about how Bill Gates would qualify by paying $35 a month. Well, so what? Why shouldn't he? Does Rush think Bill doesn't pay enough taxes? I listened to Rush's stupid ranting for over two hours and not once did Rush mention the tens of millions of elderly Americans whose net worth is less than ... er ... forty billion dollars. Not once did he mention the senior citizens who have to choose between food and life-saving drugs. In over two hours, the only citizen ever mentioned by Rush was Bill Gates, and Bill isn't even a senior. That's what I mean by lies, half-truths, and intellectual dishonesty. This whole apparatus operates on the premise that if you repeat a lie 10,000 times people will believe it. Goebbels, among others, proved it works.

I have no doubt that forty-buck oil will ooze out of the woodwork. The market has a way of correcting things, doesn't it? If the price gets high enough you can make gasoline from cow farts. Maybe at this price we can harness some of the hot air in Bush campaign ads and pipe it into our cars.

The real problem, of course, is that forty-buck oil is really twenty-buck oil, because $40 is only worth $20 anymore. If I were selling twenty-buck oil I'd want $40 for it, too. Four more years of these deficits and it will take $60 to buy a barrel of twenty-buck oil. You didn't really think they would let you keep that bitty little tax rebate, did you?

You're right, it's campaign season, and I'm just kicking back and watching Bush self-destruct. He's making Kerry looking like God's gift to America, which is quite an accomplishment, when you think about it. This is fun! Don't despair, guys, after the dust settles you may be able to still hang onto the Mississippi legislature. :7 :7 :7

[Jeffrey Nihart]

As the election nears, should we have a daily bag limit for Bush bashing? How about a license requirement for this web site with some slot limits?
Seriously, some of the posters are making this a grand sport.
TEE HEE!
Just trying to have some fun with the situation.
Best Regards,
Jeffrey the Hoosier Hillbilly

[The Democrat]

What's wrong with Bush bashing? Other than the fact he's so easy to bash it's hardly a sport. Like catching walleyes with a gillnet.

[Toolman]

I'll limit myself to 2 comments on this subject, so I don't show my ignorance of the situation.

1) Wasn't Armand Hammer the guy that invented baking soda?
2) I hope oil prices go high enough to make gas out of cow farts 'cause we got plenty of cows-I'll be rich! :)

You guys really crack me up! :)

Tim

[IaDave]

If everything you say is indeed fact we should give a rat's a** about the Middle East.

[sevenmmm]

Oh Dem... Your not going to win any coverts with such high-falut'n words. Of course every one of them 33% Democrats can fully appreciate you and them words, but for the few in the middle who really don't care - and vote - you and the Dems need to prove you will help us raise our familys (you know, the ones that didn't get aborted), by lowering our taxes, providing safe (no early released serious criminals) places to live, and care not for the United Nations plans (disarm and high taxes) for the Citizens living here in the USA.

Really, you Dems are right about alot of issues, but they pale in coparison to the issues aforementioned in this post!

And to this thread - Sianara!

[Jeffrey Nihart]

Where's Vet and his take on this? I bet he is perch fishing with Lomborg and blishfully unaware that rules change. Somehow I remember a rule against political discussion on this web site because it always turn into a bash fest.
I still think a license for Bush bashing is in order. At the very least, daily bag-limits should be in effect.

Jeffrey the Hoosier Hillbilly

[walleye-o-nator]

The Democrats are trying to take away the guns, next it'll be our fishing poles..haha. Something for you to wrap your head around Dem. I've never voted for a Republican in my life, but this year will be the first. I can't see having someone like John kerry in the white house. I would have voted for Edwards, he leans a little more to the center. John Kerry is so far to the left he'll be on the right if he takes one more step.

[The Democrat]

Yep, there's a rule against political posting, and I'm usually the second person to break it. Then ... SMACK!!! ... the thread gets dusted! I wonder why the moderators jump on it so quickly?

[The Democrat]

Rick, please explain how to build more prisons by cutting taxes. I've never been able to figure out how the Brand X guys do that.

I have to admit the U.N. isn't the biggest issue in my life. Some pretty smart folks -- smarter than me -- think our country is more secure and there'll be fewer wars if we cooperate with other countries. Their idea is if we all gang up on the world's bullies they'll cool it. From some strange reason, this sets off the right wingers. The blue U.N. car is right there with black helicopters and commies under the bed in their portfolio of irrational fears.

I'm against letting the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nations, anti-government militias, and bank robbers have machine guns, LAW rockets, hand grenades, etc. On the other hand we all know outlawing flash suppressors and banana clips is just window dressing to keep the anti-gunners happy. Hey, if it makes 'em happy and keeps their claws off my piece, I can get by without the flash suppressor and banana clip. Sometimes you gotta compromise to make things work.

[The Democrat]

I gotta call you on this one, bud! Your claim that Democrats are trying to take away our guns is horse pucky!!! This was put to the test a few years back in the Soviet of Washington when the citizenry voted 4-to-1 against an initiative requiring handgun registration. The only way that could happen is if a ton of Democrats voted against it, which they did, because there's nowhere near that many Republicans in this state. #### we use Republicans for fish bait around here, if we can find one. You think Democrats don't hunt and fish? You think Blue Collar Joe and all the guys down at the AFL-CIO are for gun registration? What you been smoking boy? You been listening to Rush too much. That guy will twist your head all inside and out with nonsense.

[Bill Sloneker]

Dem, I always find it humurous when you feel like the Right has a monoploly on the media propoganda machine. The majority of the newspapers in this country are without a doubt left leaning and I spend plenty of time listening to the likes of the O Franken factor, which the last time I checked was a liberal propaganda machine. Mr Franken is just like Rush, part entertainer and part political commenatary. If you listen to them both they kind of balance each other out and I for one get some good information from both of them.

We also give President's way to much credit and way to much blame. Last time I checked, THEY WERE NOT KING!!. The world wide economy has more influence on our economy then we might want to believe. It is always hunorous to me how a new President is elected and before he has had time to find the bathroom (or in Clintons case a new intern) he is given credit or blame for having turned the economy either south or north.


Bill

[sevenmmm]

>Rick, please explain how to build more prisons by cutting
>taxes. I've never been able to figure out how the Brand X
>guys do that.

You won't read me complaining about tax money going in this direction.

>I have to admit the U.N. isn't the biggest issue in my life.
>Some pretty smart folks -- smarter than me -- think our
>country is more secure and there'll be fewer wars if we
>cooperate with other countries. Their idea is if we all gang
>up on the world's bullies they'll cool it. From some strange
>reason, this sets off the right wingers. The blue U.N. car is
>right there with black helicopters and commies under the bed
>in their portfolio of irrational fears.

Name one "right winger" that has been set off by the UN. I would be happy to keep our membership in good standing - as long as my tax money doesn't go off to some distant country to be absorbed by a gang of hooligan currupted officials, and they change the mandate requiring all member nations to disarm their citzenry...


>I'm against letting the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nations,
>anti-government militias, and bank robbers have machine guns,
>LAW rockets, hand grenades, etc. On the other hand we all
>know outlawing flash suppressors and banana clips is just
>window dressing to keep the anti-gunners happy. Hey, if it
>makes 'em happy and keeps their claws off my piece, I can get
>by without the flash suppressor and banana clip. Sometimes
>you gotta compromise to make things work.

I'm against this too, and the Black Panthers, Al Qeada, and all other race hating garbage. Somehow I wonder if you think all "right wingers" are members of these militant groups you mention...

[sevenmmm]

That is a very good post!!!:-) LOL!

[Terroreyes]

My post(s) refer to the gas station owners, the American refineries, and DAILY fluctuations. Dem is refering to the world market prices.

SORRY Jed!! Should have been more specific. Don't you fish anymore? :)
[br][div align="center"][br][center][br][font color="#3300CC";font face="Roman"; size="+2"][b][br][br]Terror - [font color="red";font face="Webdings"; size="+3"]NN

[marcnsaugeyes]

everyone thinks America the great. But as American people I am afraid we are getting to the place of some third world countries. We are given two poor choices of whom we can vote for. Shouldn't there be a spot on the ballot that says "START OVER". Bring on the next two. What did we think by bringing two oil connected republicans (or demecrats) into the white house to run the country. FREE GAS!!!. Hardly the case. Mr. Bush and Co. has to think of their retirement in Saudi. They've most likely got him a presidential suite at the palace. Why do we continually go over and save the arabs butts continually just to have them jack up the prices. We should of let Saddam take them over and then took both and sucked their wells dry. Bush is just cleaning up his dad's mess and setting up an oil deal at the same time.
And while I'm at it, I've heard rumors for years that car manufacturers have bought patents on any product that increases gas milage. Is it possible that those gas guzzling SUV's could get the milege of a 4 banger without sacrificing the power? Then 2 bucks a gallon wouldn't be so bad.
I agree with earlier posts that things aren't as great as they were 4 years ago. I think we are handing our country away to save the world at the cost of our own demise. Japan saved themselves after WWII by not dealing with the outside world no more than it had to. It's time we shut down our borders to those who want to come in and rape our country of technology. You want it pay for it. If we send our troops to war it should be at someone elses expense not the American people. Can't afford it? What minerals and such do you have to bargin with?
President Bush or who ever is elected next year if there is one thing I could request is that if your going to give billions away, give it to us. Repay us for all you have taken from us over the years.

And if any hackers are reading. If it is possible to send a mass e-mail striking against purchasing gas, set a date 1 month down the road in order for the word to get spread. We need to stand up as a people for once and not let those in office do it for us. Power to the people need to be felt on capitol hill

[The Democrat]

Hey Jed long time no see. Are you in hiding? Eyez, watch out for this guy Jed, he hides behind bushes with a radar gun.

The retail price of gasoline is (or was) about 25% taxes, so what? How else you gonna pay for highways, streets, and bridges? Without those gas taxes you'd be driving on cow paths. Do you have any idea what a bridge costs these days?

[The Democrat]

Hey Rick I hope you don't think I'm putting you in that "right winger" barrel. You're an upstanding taxpaying businessman! The guys I'm referring to aren't hard to find. Just go to the AOL political boards and you'll find 'em. And you'll find me, too, giving 'em a hard time.

[The Democrat]

All politicians have feet of clay and we shouldn't trust any of 'em. The best we can hope for is things stay more or less the same. That's why I liked the old arrangement under which the Democrats ran the House, a cabal of Dixiecrat Democrats allied with Republicans ran the Senate, the parties traded the White House, and not much happened. Remember Murphy's Law Section 28(c):

"Nobody's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session."

The liberals do have a pretty good propaganda machine in the persons of university professors but we're distressingly weak in the media sector. if you think the media are "liberal" how come Bush's teflon last so long, and how come all the radio mouths are wingers? Franken is an experiment ... not available in my market yet ... he's amusing but I go to other sources for intellectual content.

[The Democrat]

When I was in 8th grade a neighbor kid told me his uncle knew a guy who invented a 300-mpg carburetor but the drawings disappeared and his body turned up in a ditch. Back then I was gullible enough to believe stuff like that. There's only so many BTUs in a carbon atom and with cars around for 100 years now I'm inclined to think most of the mechanical inefficiencies have been wrung out of the design by now, the attainable ones anyway.

On the other hand, why screw around with trying to coax another .5 mpg from the infernal combustion engine when you can play with Helium 3 fusion? Now here's something sexy. The skunk works guys claim a gallon of He3 has 1,000,000 times as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. Think of it, an SUV that gets 12,000,000 mpg! Visualize a fuel pellet the size of an aspirin. When your car wears out, you yank it out and insert it in your next car, and so on. When you die your grandkids inherit your fuel pellet, and when they die their grandkids inherit it, and when they die their grandkids inherit it ...

[Terroreyes]

The two stations just north of Outer Drive on Dix are having a price war. $1.98 this morning. Close to some of the local ramps! Filling the boat to the brim if it's still the same tomorow.

Funny thing is that it was $2.15 on Monday. 17 cents per gallon leeway when they all scream that they all only make 2-3 cents per gallon. Hmmmmmmmm?????

AND..... Just heard on the news today that it will take up to 2 MONTHS for the Saudi oil output increase to hit the market, BUT!!!!!, so help something negative may happen and it affects the price in almost real time. It's win-win for the oil industry no matter what!

As for the middle east...... do you really a society that wants me, you, and our children all in caskets to actually give us a break on oil prices out of the goodness of their hearts??????? I think not!

[br][div align="center"][br][center][br][font color="#3300CC";font face="Roman"; size="+2"][b][br][br]Terror - [font color="red";font face="Webdings"; size="+3"]NN

[The Democrat]

Oh c'mon Eyes, do you really think everyone in S.A. thinks and acts the same, anymore than everyone in U.S.A. thinks and acts the same? They're individuals just like us. The Arabs don't want the world economy to collapse because that would deflate the price of oil. Another reason they don't want oil to get too pricey is because oil substitutes become more competitive. The Saudis have consistently said their target is a price around $28. Futures fell today, tho they're still above $41, and one day is not a trend but maybe we're seeing the worst and some easing lies ahead. We'll have to wait and see.

[esoxlucius]

Demand, demand, demand. World demand is what's driving up oil prices. 30% over last year in China alone. Good grief, W. does't want prices to go up as it hurts his re-election chances. Btw, depending on how the terr situation pans out between now and then, I would't be surprised to see the elections suspended. Hee hee hee, that sure would get the Hildebeest's drawers bunched up.

[Terroreyes]

They don't ALL think and act that way, but the vast majority or the middle east sure mean us nothing good. You've got the Saudi gov and family funding terrorists and 9/11. That's sure no jesture of kindness!
[br][div align="center"][br][center][br][font color="#3300CC";font face="Roman"; size="+2"][b][br][br]Terror - [font color="red";font face="Webdings"; size="+3"]NN