Tournament Eyes Killed & Erie Concerns

[GBUSA]

In the April PWT tournament of 2003 the W. Basin of Erie had a weight average of 60#/day/team-a couple tons of eyes that were killed and fed to the hungry over three days. The ODNR said that the damage is minimal due to the fish being out of the brime breeding age (which is around 22-26") and will have no affect. Ok I accepteed their argument based upon biological knowledge just as in a woman over 40yo-Common sense agreement of less breeding eggs.

This year they killed all the fish in April and the July PWT within the ODNR stated prime breeding range. Well, what can be said about this double standard.

The concern over the walleye population is such that limits have been reduced in Oh and Pa. Charters obviously take their share per year that is quite more than the tournaments. But, it seem that something should be done across the board to improve the image by a "release of fish requirement". That means fizzing or whatever a biologist can recommend to help out the issue/stigma.

I am not against any of the competators, just the image given and what is quoted one year then reversed the next. I have friends that will read this that do fish the tournaments. I am sure that they will also want to have the immage boosted to increase payouts.

This is just an image that all tournament fisherman need to address to get where the BASS circuit is-and it will in time. I spent 30 years on Erie from E-W and have seen as many, the population go down dramatically. I have seen the perch return unlike when I was a little fisherman. Party boat is back next year for Erie, Pa out of Poor Richards for perch. And the research is still going on with the "Dead Zone", which I have not heard a word since last year. And giving the fish to the hungry is not and optional excuse. With all the deer and donations they eyes can survive.

And, I hear that Ohio stocks eyes and Pa doens not. "NOT" I have a friend at the PA Fish Commission In Erie, Pa and they put eyes in the Bay-which eventually go to the lake. I do not know the comparable numbers.

Here is what I see. I see that the eyes are getting out of competition with a cycle of steelies, perch and junk fish. A trout is a known eating machine and there is no shortage of them in Erie. Plus, the trout bring in more money by far per-year acording to Poor Richards of Erie, PA-no boat necessary.

This is some of my concerns for all our future. I want some input from you all and the appropriate agencies and please do not start this as a bashing post. KIS and to the point.

GB&GBUSA,

[Lumberjack]

i'd have to agree with you. i personally think its rediculous that they killed all the fish and gave them to the hungry. i can understand that they want to help feed them and taking some eyes would be ok but not all of them. from what i understand eries fishing is nothing like it used to be years back. when i fished an rcl tour event there were no eyes, to my knowledge, that were kept and killed. i only saw fish being transported back into the water where they belong. also, about hte comment on BASS, i was watching the bassmasters on tv yesterday and was actually quite disgusted with how the fisherman treated the fish, especially iaconelli. he just swings the fish around and that is not a good image for a tour who is supposedy know for keeping their fish alive. im sure many fish are hurt by that. thats just my opinion.

[MSUICEMAN]

observers with calibrated scales would take care of the problem. Truly, I think any tournaments that are not non-profit should be strictly catch and release (don't think someone should be able to make money while even somewhat destroying a resource the general fishing public pays for).

steve

[Erie Fisherman]

I agree "Erie is not what it used to be".But that is numbers only.I grew up on Erie and am now 58 years old.The numbers will most likley never be what they were in the 80`s.However the size was no where near then as to what they are now.Back in the 80`s a 10lber was few and far between.Now 10lbers are expected on Erie with a 12lb plus fish opens eyes these days.
The reason the tourneys are a "kill tourney" is because Ohio DNR wants it that way.The tourney catch goes to our Sportsmen Quota here in Ohio.Our quota is never reached even while counting these Tournament fish.This in return lowers the Canada GILL NETTERS quota on there side of the lake.
The RCL tournaments are also kill tournaments so lets not make this into a PWT bashing.IMO ,I would think this fish on Erie would not have a good chance of living after spending 2-7 hours in a livewell while getting bounced around in 2-5ft waves.
I believe the Ohio DNR nows what is best on our lake for our fish.Until someone else tells me other wise(someone other then small lake fishermen)I trust ODNR fully.
Erie Fisherman

[GBUSA]

Yes, iconelli is very bad for BASS. He sets the stigma of a northern big mouth. Living in the south for ten years changed my ways. Calm is good for the viewer and he is bad bad bad with his mouth. Braur and Van Dam are good.

I am 52 and have also seen the glory days of the 70's on Erie in the west. I still do not understand why the ODNR has to meet quotas to keep up with Canada or any other state. The entire lake is affected or is this a kill them all to drive the nets oiu of Canada situation.

We need the ODNR guy that posts about the spawn here on this one.

GB&GBUSA,

[KansasState]

I fished the RCL tournament and saw for the first time -in a bad bite I might add, the amount of fish killed and was stunneD. I agree most of these fish would not of made it with the waves but when the waves arent that bad I dont understand why they arent returned, BUT IF THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE RETURNED IT IS AWSUME WHAT THEY DO WITH THEM. If there is A shortage of fish I would hope the various fish and game depts. would not issue permits or fewer of them because there seems to be a tournament on Erie every weekend if not two. I also disagree about Iconelli, I cant wait until 400 to see the weigh in to see what he does today, he has brought a ton of exposure to there trail, I havent seen Denny Brauer in the national sports magazines like ESPN and such. I never fish for Bass but have grown to love to watch it, and wish some Walleye Pro would go wild and end up on ESPN and Fox sports and George Michaels like he did(I realize why he was on ESPN). It is like saying Tigers antics are bad for Golf. The established pros may not like it, but in the end, it will drive up purses and bring more people to the sport. Swinging a fish around is not going to hurt it as long as it dosent hit anything; he ought to get it into the livewell a little quicker, but it seems all bass fisherman love to admire there catch longer then the walleye guys.
not bashing just disagree with you

[Lumberjack]

i agree that iaconelli is good for fishing to get it out there and promote it. he is definitely good for that. the only thing about him that made me mad was how carelessly he handles some of the fish i have seen him handle. granted its not the same with all of them but i just think he should be more careful, especially with teh big ones. also, i wasnt bashing the PWT i was just saying what i had seen at devils lake where they had a great release point in a secluded bay. i love both of the tours and hope someday to be able to participate in them more.

[GBUSA]

Icconelli got a DQ today and Braur is in the top 10. But, even with his DQ, he made the cut. In his interview, his statement on ESPN was it does not matter as he has to attend his booth and sell his products. Now I ask you, is this the image you want to have your son admire or do you want a person like Tommy Skarlis or Denny Braur-plus many many more good competators. In other words, we no longer need any Tysons in the camera for the sake of all who watch. Personally, for the sake of all viewers, I see nothing gained when the sport becomes an XBassin/Walleye show.

Look Good, Act Good, and by God you will Feel Good!

GB&GBUSA,

[larrym]

Actually what he said was "if I don't make the cut I will be at my booth selling products".He did make the cut and he'll be fishing tomorrow.

[Trophy]

Just remember this about Mike Tyson. Every time you hear his name whether it's a sports fan or not, you know what he does for a living. Mention Denny Brauer once to someone outside of the fishing world,and they will have no idea who he is, or what he does. The sportfishing world does not need a felon as their poster child don't get me wrong, but someone who has a mouth,exposure, and success is what will get the non-fishing world's attention, and stir more interest in the sport with the kid's which is what we need.

[Flash gordon]

observers with calibrated scales would take care of the problem. Truly, I think any tournaments that are not non-profit should be strictly catch and release (don't think someone should be able to make money while even somewhat destroying a resource the general fishing public pays for).

steve

Why do you think like that Steve? Since when has the general public been though of by ANYBODY. Super heavy Semi trucks and trailers wreck the roads and the road taxes they pay doesn't come anywhere near to cover the cost of the excessive weight damage, hence the average car and light truck owner subsidize the trucking industry. Nobody cares about that do they? If 135 boats that bought fishing licenses showed up and caught the same amount of fish nothing would be said if there wasn't a tournament????? Anybody that buys a fishing licenses has just as much right to those fish as a non tournament angler. How much money did the Ohio taxpayer pay for the the new Cleveland Browns Stadium to so the owner of the Browns could charge for tickets that don't go back to the taxpayer????? Your argument has so many glaring holes that it looks like swiss cheese. It is also next to mpossible to live release walleye in the hot summer months. You view reeks of banning tournaments and socialist fishing philsophy.

[Orlando]

I to think that it should be catch and realese only in these tournys for eyes. I never could understand why they haven't treated their catch with more respect at the scales and now I know why.I'm a long time bass fisherman at heart and used to think that the bass fisherman at the scales conducted themselves in a very professional manner. It's all starting to change, Mike Iaconelli is just the beginning.The man is a great fish catcher but it goes farther than that. You should conduct yourself in a professional manner as you are in the public eye. I can't hardly stand to watch him, he is a true disgrace to the bass fishing comunity. Just my 2 cents

[eyegetit]

C&R is NOT what makes BASS tourneys bigger and more popular than Walleye tourneys. LM/SM Bass just happen to be the most widely distributed sport fish in North America. Did you ever wonder if the folks who fish in those big salt water tourneys (Kings, RedFish, Snook, etc.) sit around with BASS envy? I think not. I think they enjoy their tourneys for what they are....THEIR TOURNEYS!!

[GBUSA]

I wanted to wait for responses before I stated some observations. I want to set some credability by stating that I have a MS degree, foreign war vet, work in the construction world now and studied the NAFTA agreement impact to the USA extensively.

There has been an amazing change in the past thirty years due to technology. I have seen my generation of baby boomers have children then divorce of 60%. The TV taught our children due to parents surviving. Lack of family values went away and capitolism changed to everyone getting greedy to a much higher degree (most rich earn it, by far). The boarders are and continue to be open due to our generation aborting an entire generation of workers-they/we needed to fill the gap with laborers and that comes from the horses mouth at the big house. This leads this generation to be more inclined to mary for money as money is everything they see. Loyalty has gone in sports, work and ethics are a-miss. Enron takes a working mans pension after a life of work. The last president was essentially a fellon and the present one is back to the basics of the written constitution founded upon the basis of christianity- Look at your coins, dollars, and read what this country was founded upon. We need those rules and lines to have a base line to right vs wrong. A soldier protects our freedom that many take for granted and they are looked upon as a less honorable professional where they ahould be honored in the highest.

What we have all led up to is the issue of money vs ethics/morals. Now each of us has the right to live within the law as we want. But, when will the right/wrong of our lives start to get back to some basic morality of common sense. Is it not a time to be gratefull for what freedom we have and clean up the corperate act a lot. It starts with the small thing and the eyes should go back to the water in tournaments alive-PERIOD.

As for the opportunists like Icconelli-well he made the cut but he got DQ,ed yesterday and attacked by hornets today-the big man works in his own way. Yes he is just playing his show, but not many like it-he will go fast just as Ozzie.

We as fisherman can do our part. By taking our freedom for granted is an abuse of this great country. It is up to us all to think wisely and get involved with what is common sensed wrightly-ethical and morally akin to my country. I have always said that schools should make it manditory for all students to go to a third world country and learn the stock market. We will all then understand finances of a business and appreciate our given positions with a company and love our country more.

Again, Erie and all the great lakes need some serious TLC and it can start with our voice. It's your land as it is my land. But it will some day be our childrens land. Read, Read and Read more to keep up on what is the best for all. Changes and Decisions are based upon facts!

GB&GBUSA,

[The Politico]

Again, Erie and all the great lakes need some serious TLC and it can start with our voice. It's your land as it is my land. But it will some day be our childrens land. Read, Read and Read more to keep up on what is the best for all. Changes and Decisions are based upon facts!

GB&GBUSA,



jerry


Good post Jerry and I agree with 98% of it right up until the decisions and changes are based on facts part. Decisions are based on $$$$$$ and who gets those dollars, politicians base their facts on what "if the decision they make could have them voted OUT of office". The facts can be construed to mean anything you want them too and are generally ignored when it come to money and votes.

Scenario time...If a polluting steel factory that employs many blue collar voters that puts politicians in office, what political benefit would an elected official have on closing it down because it didn't meet clean air standards thus unemploying all the folks that voted for the elected official. My Good decisions are only Good when they occur in your backyard. If it happens in MY backyard I will do what I need to do to survive and I could care less what anybody that doesn't live by me thinks!!!!!!

[GBUSA]

The Politico:
I agree that it is money and that is what the capitalist is all about. It works. But I have seen as I am sure that you have that the voice of the people can change the direction of the world. For instance, Vietnam ( i participated and volenteered due to what I was then taught in school)-communism is a commin they said. We do what we can, but the voice can do amazing things in a mass. Another example is MADD. ####, you can't even mess with these people. Lately it is VA residents cafying side-arms in the open, on their side. It was legalized as it is in Texas. Their crime (VA)is the lowest in ages. Facts, the facts of the matter about being armed is that the cities that "Require" all people to be armed within their town if they live there have the lowest crime. The stats are in fact there to arm a citizen prevents more crime than what is created. Printed by a Dr. and in a book.

Now to put this in another senario. You have one Columbine where children are killed by a gun, you pissed off MOM. And if mom anin't happy nobody is happy. So you see that the voice of a mom can be big time if you mess with their baby. Woman think with emotions and vote likewise with the concern of security. Emotions can not run a country or you get rosie o'donald as president. How can emotions compromise the facts? Details are gathered then a statement is given by a wise man. Decisions of prosperity may have to be swift for a wise business man. Look at the congressional vote for hillary, her part in Whitewater and see if the fact sheet ads up to a good leader. She is a true opportunist. Yet, she has many convinced she is the one for 2008.

We all think different and have agendas and I try to be open minded with facts, intuition, cognatively ballanced and fairness. I hate to say that it just seem that my country is just at the point of too much freedom at the borders and too many self interest groups backed by money like Zoros. You have so many people that are less concerned about a human life and more concerned about a mammals rights. I am concerned with what I know about my country and my passion, fishing on Erie. I want to see my passion be held in the highest of honors or you will get some "Fish Kill" group started on another crusade-rember the lobster move with boiling.
GB&GBUSA,

[Rob Stratton]

Come on guys, this again? Let's get it straight, the "right" thing to do is release any fish that can make it...but, the fact of the matter is that in the big scheme the few fish taken and eaten via these tournaments is NOTHING compared to the commercial harvest.

I'm tired of hearing the debate about releasing the fish to breed, fact is that the release of a million fingerlings (paid for by everyone) has a much better survival ratio than eggs fertilized naturally. If you don't beleive it look at Saginaw Bay.

I personally think the most important reason to release these large fish is so that someone else may have the pleasure and experience of catching it again.

[GBUSA]

Rod:
The orginal post is clearly stated biologically speaking. The situation is, why kill them and make the tournament fisherman looked upon as a killer by the public eye. There are a lot of tournaments and growing. So what you are saying is that since 1970 Erie gets less fingerlings than it used to and Saganaw Bay is being loaded.

Back to what I want to see/read, give me some factual biological proof to support your statement. I will again tell you what I think and posted in the start,~ there are too many trout for the eyes to compete with. Trout are known as an eating machine. Look at L. Michigan, Supperior and Ontario fisheries and see the walleye population vs. trout.

Frankely, I just want a factual answer because after thirty years on the lake fishing exclusively for eyes I find a steelie is much more fun these days(only in deep water as i do not fish crowds on shore). Maybe with age I got more in the fun game and had a ball this past week doing the above.

For the table, you can't beat the perch. In fact, I noticed today that I am currently guilty of having too many filets in the freezer to last until next season. So, it is just fun now. The perching this year is just insane,ly incredabley great with 10-14+" fish. Limits come within two hours and youngins are haveing a ball. I never saw so many kids on the lake before.

Get some facts from the 70's to now and post it or get a reputable, fact finding bioligist from Oh and/or PA to post.

I will tell you what one told me when doing a count three years ago. "The eyes are going to continue to go down until 2010 due to the complexity of the ever changing eco system in Erie". He never said why nor would he answer that question precisely.

GB&GBUSA,

[Hangman]

Good post Rob. This gets beat up at least 4 or 5 times every year. Whether a tourney is a live release or a harvest tournament is mandated by the DNR which takes a lot of factors in determining which it is to be. When temperatures are high it just makes good sense to harvest rather than release. If you have a problem with the way the DNR mandates how the tourneys are run talk to them. B!#%?ing about it here is just a waste of time.

[Hangman]

There is nowhere to get on this, as I was trying to tell you. The DNR mandates Live release or harvest. The tournament directors have no say in it. I can't make it any plainer than that. Take it up with the DNR.

[Gilligan]

Jerry...
Very rarely will I release a walleye on Erie since so many of our fish come deep, are fought for a long distance on long lines in the heat of summer. For at least the PWT event in July with fish coming from the deeper central basin vs the west end, summer heat and long runs with temptous Erie waves beating fish in the well harvesting these fish makes sense to me. A live fish for weigh in does not mean that it is healthy enough to survive once released.

[Trophy]

Very well put. I have been idle on this post but will now pitch in. The condition of Erie is one that anyone in the world would love to have. I am fortunate to get to fish this water every week of open water,and fit conditions. As one can easily tell by the reports of yearlings showing up in mass quantities from Luna Pier, to Cleveland, the population of legal fish is gowing to explode in 2 years. The likeliness of the stealhead eating all the forage is minimal to the point I will say it will never happen. With the Gobies, Smelt, Alewives, Shad, and all the Perch available, starvation is not gonna happen. The only thing to screw up the boom times ahead is the netter's, and several hatch failures. Keeping fish in livewell's and traveling any distance on Erie in 3 footers will result in practically no survivors. The D.N.R. and the Biologists for the State of Ohio have done an excellent job on this side of the big pond. The last thing I would like to hit on is the comparison in the Great Lakes. You can't expect Lake Michigan to support the same populations as Erie. They are totally different bodies of water with their compositions not equally suited to each other. Erie has it all, shallow water reefs for spawning, deeper water, it's very fertile water that supports huge amounts of baitfish and the others just don't have the habitat to make things happen like Erie. I'm no biologist, and I have no degrees, the only title's I have is captain, and Dad, but I know what I see, and Erie is alive and well. Please keep the good work Ohio D.N.R.

[MINK TRAPPER]

I think catch and release will be the demise of fishing . Giving the ANTI'S all the ammunition that they need . The local Bass Tourney's held on the surrounding lakes close to home have turn the bass population in these lakes to nothing but a bunch of SORE MOUTH WHORES who are used over and over again .If the Anti's knew how many times these fish are caught in a season they would be shocked . If the PWT or the RCl would have turned the fish caught back into Erie only to wash up on shore a week later how many voices do you think we would of heard from the ANTI"S ! I think we are sending the wrong message when we have catch and release tourneys on any lake .The DNR of OHIO is doing a great job with Lake Erie plus Erie has someone watching out for her greater than all of us the WEATHER . Just my two cents .

[trophy fishing]

I personally think the most important reason to release these large fish is so that someone else may have the pleasure and experience of catching it again. Also to help maintain a trophy fishing experience because it took 15-20 years for these fish to grow to this size in waters richer in food than zebra clear water Erie now has.

[GBUSA]

I respect all your input, but I see no facts or research documentation proving your point. It is just your BELIEF that killing the fish because of the conditions of them being caught that they will die. Again, I am not against any tournament, Just want the facts/research for my and your personal knowledge.

Point of case:
BASS had the clasic yesteday on ESPN live and the fish that were brought to the scale by the local guy running to a spot every 5 minutes were jumping and very lively. In fact every fish was very lively. Yes, they were not from a huge temp. change or from deep water. But a pressure can come from as much as 10 ft ( this I know from diving)- it is just a density matter.

So, I am going to write the Ohio DNR and Pa biologists and the Sea Grant for the facts. Then, if I get an answer whatever it is I will post it.
GB&GBUSA,
Jerry

[Erie bud]

Jerry,
Jump on over to http://www.sg.ohio-state.edu/discus/messages/13/13.html
and ask those boys (who study the lake for a living) what they think and I think you'll find out that the number of fish killed by sportsfishermen in Lake Erie (including those tiny tournaments) is a drop in the bucket. There are somewhere around 25 million adult eyes in Erie (no one can agree on the exact number) and you're worried about the few hundred taken in tournaments??? How about the millions killed by the Ontario gill netters? How about the millions that die of natural causes each year? As for the 80s -- there were an estimated 80-100 million eyes in Erie which biologists say is way more than the lake can sustain. Remember that it took no skill the catch them cause they were starved? Remember that you couldn't get minnow to perch fish cause the eyes had eaten most of them. A healthy, well-maintained Erie is much better than the fish-starving Erie of the early 80s.....

[GBUSA]

eRIE bUE:
YOU ALSO CAN NOT READ, AS I NEVER SAID ANY OF WHAT YOU STATED. I AM NOT AGAINST, BUT I WANT TO SEE SOME FACTUAL RESEARCH ABOUT MY ORIGINAL POST. LOOK AT THIS AS MY ATTEMPT TO BECOME AN INTELLEGENT CONSUMER.
GB&GBUSA,

[Hangman]

You cannot compare the ride those bass got on glass smooth water to a ride on Erie.

[GBUSA]

GIVE ME A BREAK ON THE RIDE GAME. JUST THINK THEN THINK AGAIN. ALL THE BASS GET A ROUGH RIDE IN WATER. GET ON MY BOAT IN 3-5 FT WABVES AND SEE IF YOU DON'T COME OUT WITH SOME BRUSES. WELL, YOU WALK AWAY AND SO CAN A FISH-THEY LIVE IN WATER-EVEN LIVEWELLS. THIS ISSUE IS NOT COMMON SENSE. I SEEK FACTS NOT EMOTIONS BASED UPON ROSIE O'DONALD EMOTIONAL STATEMENTS. I WANT fffffffffffffffffACTS NOT FEELINGS FOR THIS SITUATION TO BE DOCUMENTED, POSTED AND RESOLVED ONCE AND FOR ALL

THE ABOVE LINK IS THE BEST DIRECTION I HAVE BEEN POINTED IN AND I AM VERY GRATFULL FOR IT. THREE AGENCIES HAVE BEEN CONTACTED AND IT WILL COME TO A FACT BASED SOLUTION IF I SPEND ALL DAY ON THE PHONE.
GB7GBUSA,
jERRY

[try]

yes, but a livewell full of big erie eyes takes up a heck of a lot more room and a lot more oxygen.

[KansasState]

3-5 foot waves in the RCL erie tournament would of been a nice they were close to double that and our fish were practically dead and were bleeding when we weighed them in

[GBUSA]

READ THIS:
I JUST SPENT TWO HOURS WITH THE TWO MOST INFORMED BIOLOGISTS FOR ERIE, MR. FRED SNYDER OF THE SEA GRANT AND MR JEFF TYSON OF THE ODNR AT THE W. BASIN. THEY ARE COMPILING STUDIES, FACTS, FIGURES FOR ME TO PRESENT, AND FOR MY RESEARCH ARCHIVES. WHEN I GET THEM, I WILL POST THEM. INCLUDING THEN/NOW STATS, CONDITIONS, WHAT IS AND WHAT WAS, TROUT, GOBIES ETC.

THERE ARE SURPRISES, CHANGES AND NEW RESEARCH PLUS SOME LAND ACT MOVES TO OPEN UP RIVERS/SANDUSKY TO LET EYES SPAWN. CURRENT RESEARCH OF THE IMPACT OF TROUT, TOURNAMENT RELEASE OF EYES AND BASS ETC. ETC.

BUT, IN NO WAY DO THEY PUBLICALLY ADVOCATE THE KILLING OF THE FISH IN ALL TOURNAMENTS, INCLUDING ERIE. IT IS AN ACT OF COMMON SENSE BASED UPON TRIAL AND ERROR AS RELATED IN GILLIGAN'S POST, IN ERIE ONLY. BUT, IT IS A LAKE-BASED SITUATIONAL DECISION THAT THEY CAN ONLY GIVE POSSABLE/PROBABLE SURVIVAL RATES. WALLEYE, TROUT AND BASS ARE CONSIDERED AND LOOKED AT IN A DIFFERENT SPECTRUM DUE TO MANY FACTORS. STUDIES ARE GOING ON AND ONE I SHOULD GET HAS BEEN COMPLETED.


GB&GBUSA,

[eyechart]

Maybe if you increase your font size to 5 million and use different colors...we might begin to understand your point of view.

[try]

LMAO!!!

[Hangman]

Maybe you need to get in a box with a few of your buddies and try riding in that boat 20 or 30 miles in 3 to 4 foot waves and see what you look like. A man as over educated as you should be able to figure out that there is a lot of difference between riding on an air ride seat and riding in a livewell. I watched the B.A.S.S. weighin yesterday. The water on that impoundment was calm. Use a little common sense. You don't need a lot of studies to figure this out. Just common sense. In Mn., where I live, tournaments are live release from opener till mid-June. From then till Sept. harvest, then go back to live release. This is a DNR decision-NOT a tournament directors decision. Would you like to see them all released only to wash up on shore later? I think not. These fish are donated to a good cause and none go to waste. I don't know what you are really trying to get to here, but I think you could waste your time better by pursuing something more important, and something you might be able to do something about.

[GU]

& stay on the subject:)