: PWT entry Fees 2006
11-01-2005, 04:37 AM
PWT announced it's entry fees fpr 2006 SuperPro's $ 3000./per/event
MilleLac's (pending) (min championship)
Only 50 pre-selected Pro's to fish elite 50
30 will Qualify for Championship (main Championship)
There will also be 4 other PWT event's, anyone can enter location's not announced.
Purse on SuperPro, still fishing for their OWN MONEY, What a JOKE!!!!
Looks lke FLW is Place to be. Or Maybe, back to where this all evolved from, the MWC.
Walleye Tournament's, Still in their Infant stage, will never Grow fishing for their own money/
Crappiethon's to the Rescue,
11-01-2005, 07:31 AM
Sounds like a great step in the right direction.
Bigger entry fees, but what are the payouts? If they are no different than the regional payouts its no good, but if its a big wad of cash like what the FLW does then its a good thing.
11-01-2005, 07:59 AM
Well I am not sure what you are talking about but I did a quick rough calculation for the 2005 season;
Total Entries 6 x 120 x $1650.00 = $1,188,000.00
Total Purse and Special Awards = $1,850,000.00 (Includes championship)
I think it was actually closer to 2 Million. That is far from fishing for your own money. We are along way from ever fishing for someone else money but we are getting there.
Now I have not yet seen this year’s purse so I will hold judgement on that for now.
I think the whole idea is to give the guys a better platform to generate more non-endemic sponsor money. Fewer guys’ means more exposure and more selling power of ones self, branding much like the BASS guys are doing. Much like Parsons/Kavajecz, Roach (Mr. Walleye), Skarlis, Harsh, Olson, Glorvigen x 2, Gofron. I could go on but I think I made my point?
I am looking at it as an investment. Pay more on one side to hopefully be rewarded on the other side. This is a business and you need to look at it this way if you ever want to make a living at it. There are guys making a living at this and this will just give more the opportunity to do the same.
Branding is the key……
11-01-2005, 08:41 AM
Not sure how you got the info, but the payouts I received are good. 139% on the first three and 171% payback on the last one. That seems like a lot more than our own money. I look forward to it. This what we have all been asking for for years. The PWT is stepping it up with format and money.
11-01-2005, 08:47 AM
I just received the information and it looks good to me. This is a positive step and I am looking forward to the possibilities this should hold for the guys who get it.
11-01-2005, 08:54 AM
If Branding is the key, then cattle bussiness is where you should be, Not fishing.
1st pl 65,000. 40,000 cash, and boat
10th pl 7,500
20th pl 4,000
All this is based on Full Field
What a Joke!
This means, 12,000. in entry fee's, another 8,000. in expenses, then all other out of pocket expenses,equals roughly 25,000.
Now add your cost of living wages into that, say at 40,000. that means, you need to cash a 3rd place check in all events or Better.
Now, if sponsors where picking up all expenses for these pro's, as they do for the Bass Guys, it would be different.
STILL FISHING FOR THEIR OWN MONEY. THESE FACT'S ARE TAKEN OF SHEET SENT OUT BY IN-FISH-PWT.
Invitations are out to the Pro's now, and even Chase Parson's got invited to the SuperPro field, instead of someone who has paid their dues. Nothing against Chase, but think of the guy who, MADE THE INVESTMENT, for the past 10 yrs, and has not been invited as a SuperPro.
It's Time for Brunswick, to start their own circuit, or the NPAA.
If you want to invest, do it in Oil, you'll make more money!!!!!!!!!!!
If those numbers are true too bad.
BTW - The bass guys are not fully compensated like you indicate. Sure, some make more, but the reality is they, the BASS guys, are fishing for primarily their own money this year in the Elite Series.
11-01-2005, 09:12 AM
you forgot the ams entry fees 6 x $600 x 120 = $432,000
11-01-2005, 09:29 AM
After looking at the numbers it actually looks ok.
Entries 50 x 3000 x 4 = $600,00.00
Payout approx = $1,100,00.00 (in cludes championship)
It is a good start to something big.
Since this has all started I have really been looking at they BASS guys and how things work over there and I have found that many of them pay most of there expenses as we do. That’s why they made the changes and I think the reason the PWT made the changes. This is giving us or we hope some added value to help sell our selves to the non-endemic sponsors.
Time will tell....
The opportunity is before us its up to us to make it happen!! We all have choices we can either choose to be a part of it or not. That’s what is so great about this Country.
11-01-2005, 09:36 AM
I think one thing we are all missing here is that the PWT Super Pro Elite Series is in addition to the PWT Tour not replacing it.
They are still going to have the PWT Tour. The only difference will be they are only going to have 4 tournaments instead of 6.
If some do not agree with the Super Pro format you can always fish the Regionals for the same money as always and have a chance to make the year end Championship.
11-01-2005, 09:56 AM
Does anybody know what the qualifing process is for the elite and is it even possible to qualify with a great year on reg. tour. How many anglers from regionals make the championship? What are requirements to retaining a position in the elite? Without the clear cut guidlines it is impossible to make an educated decision.
11-01-2005, 10:14 AM
>"I think the whole idea is to give the guys a better platform
>to generate more non-endemic sponsor money. Fewer guys’ means
>more exposure and more selling power of ones self, branding
>much like the BASS guys are doing."
More exposure where?
The BASS guys have ESPN, and a four hour block on BASS Saturdays. The PWT has 1/2 hours shows on "The Outdoor Channel". There's nothing comparable about that.
Besides, you can't promise a potential non-endemic sponsor that you will make the top 5 in each tourney to give them a few minutes of exposure on the Outdoor Channel...you just don't know if that will happen.
You will need to have something else to offer those potential sponsors.
Just my opinion...Please understand that I am not bashing the PWT in any way here. Just pointing out the fact that they cannot be compared to BASS in my mind.
11-01-2005, 10:39 AM
That is the million dollar question.
The "in crowed" of PWT anglers have been pushing for years to get a format that protects them from up-and-comers & reduces field size, and they finally have it. They want to call it "elite" and the “best of the best”, but they don't want to loose their spot if they are not competitive. I doubt that the PWT has set up cut and dried criteria for qualifying, and I doubt they will be kick guys off the “elite 50” if they have bad seasons.
My guess is that the answer to your question is…The PWT will have a set of criteria that will be considered by the “closed door” committee to select new guys for the this tour…My guess is that there will only be 2-3 spots available each year, and these spots will be created by attrition, not lack of competitiveness.
Good point Juls. The exposure that the PWT provides is trivial, and can't be counted upon.
10 make the championship from the reginals
the Elite 50 is a very compressed field, other than Chase parsons getting in on his first yr. Others al meet long list of cridentials.
They also have what they call the Hot 3 yr list, and the all time list, as well as a nother list, and another list, and another list.
50 X 3000. X 4 = 600,000.
each event pays out 294,000 X 4 = 1,176,000.
about 170% payout
You have to take at least 13th place to break even at each event, that means 37 guys loose at each event, let me think about that, NOT
Would you pay your employer $ 480.00 per week to work, and then if you did good enough, he repaid you, either your $ 480.00 or more, depending on the job you did. GET REAL, or Get a Real Job. Got to Grow up sometime, and give up these ego's.
Definiyon of the Elite 50 Guys who put their shorts on Different then Me. I still put them on one leg at a time.
Oh by the way, the letter says: quote: More media coverage
Higher purse payments
Fish against a limited field
* Bragging rights as a SuperPro
Chance to be Angler of the Yr
* Automatically Qualify for
Better than 50/50 chance to
make the Mercury Championship
Gota Love it,
11-01-2005, 10:56 AM
When I refer to the Bass guys I refer to both BASS & FLW. By no means are we both at the same level as far as TV exposure but that is not the point I was trying to make.
My point was the branding of ones self like the Bass guys and there a plenty of Walleye guys and gal who have don this very well.
It still all comes down to ones ability to market them self’s weather it is BASS, FLW, or PWT. The more tools you have the better off you become. Having to compete for TV time and magazine coverage with 50 guys makes it much more attractive than having to do it with 160 (divisional and tour anglers) and this is of course in addition to whatever else you can do for your potential sponsor.
Like anything else this is just a tool. How one uses it is up to them. It may work it may not but there is only one way to find out, time.
This is all good and I can not wait to hear what the FLW Walleye Tour has in mind for next season. Sound exciting!!
11-01-2005, 11:16 AM
Thanks for clarifying your point "Not Bad", "Math 101", "Agree", and "Missing". ;)
Wouldn't it be easier to stick to one handle? lol
11-01-2005, 11:27 AM
Will all PWT pros receive this mailing, or just the elite 50 invitees?
11-01-2005, 11:51 AM
It's just a guess, but I would assume that an invitation only series would mean that only the ones invited would get sent an invitation.
I'm sure ALL will get the info on the regionals though.
Just a guess.
11-01-2005, 12:07 PM
This is going to be an interesting offseason!:popcorn:
11-01-2005, 12:34 PM
The answer to the question is eventually nearly every Pro will receive the information because for the field to be filled on such a silly format with anglers fishing for their own money, they will need to invite everyone before the filed fills with 50!
Wait A Minute
11-01-2005, 06:31 PM
Only the Super Pro/Elite guys qualify for the Angler of the Year race?
So in theory a guy could finish 21st at all 4 Super Pro events and win Angler of the Year without cashing a single check during the "season"
Is that right?
11-01-2005, 08:08 PM
Does the mailing actually have the names of the guys on the elite 50 list?
11-02-2005, 06:42 AM
UGGHHH! We now have all the makings of a Senior Tour! You'll have a better chance of getting into Nascar as a rookie, especially if your Dad is Richard Petty.
Looks like a Good ol Boys Circuit to me. Not very exciting.
11-02-2005, 06:44 AM
Thank you for pointing that out. It would appear that someone not logged in is working hard to lobby or put a positive spin on the new PWT Super Pro Series.
I received an invite in the mail last Friday and am still trying to accurately formulate my opinion as to this new PWT program.
This time of the year with deer hunting to get ready for, the waterfowl and pheasant seasons open and a more than above average attempt on my part to complete all the tasks around my home before winter, this subject has not been the primary issue in my life. Maybe it should be.
Frankly, the information I received from the PWT invite seems to have raised more questions than answers.
At this point, I have not decided what my decision will be regarding participation in the 2006 PWT Super Pro series. I am glad I do not have to make that decision today.
I can tell you this however, I do not want, nor need the (quote) "bragging rights" of being a PWT Super Pro member. The shameful elevation of ourselves as tournament anglers above ANY type of fellow angler is sheer stupidity. Listing that statement as one of the benefits of participation was not a step in the right direction. "Bragging rights" will not fill our gas tanks either.
I will continue to watch this thread and hope the replies are presented in a manner that does not get it nuked.
Pete Harsh / MR.TILLER
11-02-2005, 07:28 AM
Well said,Mr.Harsh.It's nice to hear a pro's view,especially one who will post their name with their thoughts.It will be interesting to see how this plays out.Does the "elite tourney" fish with co-anglers or observers?I would like to fish one series(as an am),but as of now I think I am leaning towards the FLW.It would be nice if they could all get their schedules set ASAP,so people could start making plans/decisions for the year.I really think the "elite" tour is going to be a bomb,unless they set it up with strict & consistent qualifications & stick to them without making acceptions.My 2 cents.Thanks,eyecrazy-Steve Hammons
11-02-2005, 07:41 AM
The FLW Walleye Tour schedule has been out for quite awhile now...
The Tour events are as follows:
Detroit River April 5-8
Red Wing May 3-6
Devils Lake June 7-10
Green Bay July 12-15
If you decide you want to fish the FLW and need a Pro to sign up with for priority entry, I can use you...you can email me at email@example.com if you're interested. Prefishing would be available to you.
Do you need a co-angler to sign up with too? Or, do you still have a regular 4 timer that signs up with you?
Also, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us on this subject. Like the post above me, I too admire the fact that you used your real name instead of a ghost name. I wish more would have the guts to stand behind their words like you do.
p.s. Good luck hunting (if you can get away from the house work), and if you get some ducks, let me know...I have a great recipe for you. It's a recipe that Rick learned while duck hunting down in Mexico one year. It's awesome!
11-02-2005, 08:33 AM
Hi Uncle Pete
Nice to hear your going hunting, I will see you tommorrow morning. This is going to be my first road trip since April. Got to try it, just to see if I can.
As far as this PWT thing, WOW, I got my letter also, and it sure is not what you want to make a decission on today, without seeing all the facts. I also, DO NOT like the fact of Bragging rights!! Bragging Rights, are for the Guy or Gal who win's the Big Buck contest, and they too, will tell you, they got lucky.
Entry fee jumping that high, well, a Sponsor of mine, once told me, Gary, if you want to make a Million dollars fishing tournaments, then start with 2 million. Being off this past year, sure gave me a different view of tournament fishing, watching all the events evolve, and who did what. I spent the entire summer with Family around me, and was home for all Holidays. It's been 21 yrs since that happened. I do plan on getting back to fishing, God willing, and just what I am going to fish, will be decided by my health, come Dec and Jan. But, no matter what I fish, I am going to have fun.
This past summer taught me one thing for sure, Life is Great, just waking up each morning, and being above the Green side of the grass, instead of below the roots. Friends are Important, and Family is the Most import Friends you have. The rest of my life, is going to be, trying to make tommorrow, more fun than yesterday, and living today to it's fullest. If I can do that, then, I am having Fun.
Heck, maybe I should apply for PWT Director position, it sounds like Fun.
Have a Great Day,
11-02-2005, 08:58 AM
AWESOME MR HARSH!!!! Stated perfectly and to the point.
Juls not to bash you because I do enjoy reading your posts. You talk about level/fair playing fields. what difference does it make if I fish my home water only and do well or have you or some other top pro hire/ask me to prefish with them and tell them my spots and how to fish them spots ect... if you don't think that happens your crazy.
Or better yet look at the networking heck if I was able to fish all 6 or 3 tournaments I would be like a fish out of the water because everyone is working with someone.
So, my point is by letting someone into one tournament and that individual does well may encourage him to fish another. Not everyone has the financial capability to spend $3000 a tournament HOPING to do well.
11-02-2005, 11:24 AM
Honestly, for the entry fee, the Am side of the PWT is lacking by giving out premiums...and not cash for prizes. For my money, I'd rather fish the FLW for a chance at cash. Don't get me wrong, the free boat for the winner is nice, but all-in-all, I'd rather have more/better chances at the cash with the FLW. I think the PWT needs to change that part of their format to attract am's.
11-02-2005, 01:22 PM
No offense taken J.C., you bring up some good points...thanks for chiming in.
"What difference does it make if I fish my home water only and do well or have you or some other top pro hire/ask me to prefish with them and tell them my spots and how to fish them spots ect... if you
don't think that happens your crazy."
Yep, I'm aware that that does happen, so I guess I can't be called crazy...whew! lol
I hadn't thought of it that way, the way you're looking at it, and I would have to agree that it really makes no difference, when you put it like that.
I can say however, that I personally don't agree with the practice of hiring local guides to show touring pros their honey holes. That steps over the line in my mind...way over the line.
Getting information from baitshops, and locals at boat landings is one thing, but to actually go out with a guide for a day or two, to see the areas, and to be shown how to fish the areas, is another.
I know that it is legal to do so, up until the cut off date of NOT being able to do so, but I still don't agree with it...that's my personal opinion on that subject, and doesn't reflect anyone else's.
"So, my point is by letting someone into one tournament and
that individual does well may encourage him to fish another.
Not everyone has the financial capability to spend $3000 a
tournament HOPING to do well."
I don't know of anyone that will be happy paying 3K per tournament whether they do well or not! That's pretty steep for anyone's checkbook.
Back to your statement...
I can see your point, but realistically it still comes down to what I said before. The angler fishing his/her home waters will have a great chance to make some big money, but can they compete against these guys on other waters? It's one thing to compete with an advantage, but quite another when the playing field is level...ie: local angler no longer has the advantage.
So, do you think that the local who got in one tournament on his home lake, and made some big money, is really going to go and try to go up against these guys on an unfamiliar body of water? I doubt it.
Now, I'm not talking about guys/guides like Johnny Candle who have competitive flames flying out their butts, but rather the local guide who works his tail off to make money everyday of every year who doesn't have that competitive passion. These guys seldom, if ever, want to jump into the Professional Tournament arena...where they leave home/family/job for weeks on end to try and make a living fishing. And, why should they? They are already making a living doing what they love...fishing! But, I can understand them wanting to try to make a big load of cash fishing a tournament on their home body of water. Who wouldn't?
Tournament anglers make huge sacrifices that a lot of people are not aware of, or don't think of. Most anglers spend a better part of the year away from their wives and children, not only fishing tournaments, but also by being on the road doing promotions during the off season. It's not a glamorous life at all, unless you think sleeping in different hotel beds (not all of them are nice ones), eating at restaurants (gag me), sitting in a truck for a gazillion hours on end, or fishing in less than ideal conditions (whether you want to or not) is glamorous! Some folks can do it, and other find they can't. It's not for everyone. But, for those that do choose to live this lifestyle, should also be allowed to make a decent living at it, and enjoy the rewards of all their hard work.
Competition is what drives these guys/gals to fish competitively and to make these sacrifices, and I think it's only fair that they be allowed to keep the playing field level in order to still make a living doing so.
So, in short I guess I'm sticking to my guns on this issue, even though I understand where you're coming from.
thanks for the reply Juls. I will beg to differ with you on the fishing one tournament and doing well and not fishing another. I personally would give my left tooth to be able to fish either 3 or 6 events but theres no way I can with 3K entry fees and not having anyone to work with. I hope you see my point and don't feel I am trying to argue with you, thats not my intention.
I for one don't disagree with you that they shouldn't be paid BIG bucks for what they do. I myself fish alot of tournaments and would love to step up to the big leagues if I had the oppertunity. I know what they go through believe me.
I again I don't disagree with you on keeping the playing field level but they don't. Level playing field to me isn't getting 5 or 6 guys together and sharing information. Maybe to keep it on a level playing field one should allow NO prefishing prior to the event. You're not all on a level playing field when say Dan Stier who fishes for a living goes from tournament to tournament and may have an extra week or so over someone like Mike Gofron who has his own business to run. When he has a few days off the last thing he is going to do is spend an extra week fishing when he could be home with his family and making sure his business is still afloat.
Just some food for thought because I am one of the guys that need that win to make it affordable to fish 3 or 6 events BUT I do understand where your coming from also. Like I said I am not the type of guy who likes to argue. I hope you see my point!!!!
11-02-2005, 04:56 PM
Yes Sir, I do. ;)
Ok, now that the two of you have that all worked out. I might as well put my 2 cents in the ring. In my OPINION, it's a bad plan to even begin to think about paying your tournament expenses with tournament winnings. A pro angler makes it by putting together a complete program that stands by itself without tourney winnings. Seminars, sponsorship programs, endorsements, appearances, more sponsorship programs. Unfortunately I also believe it will take just about any pro angler about 10-15 years before a program can be put together that allows fishing to be the full time job.
I'm actually quite surprised with you Jul's. I know how hard you have had to work for your sponsors in the past.
Too much focus on the potential winnings in tournament action is a sign of hard times. If your winnings in tournaments did produce a living, I think the angler knows how fortunate they are, for the moment.
Maybe it's a little pompous to suggest, but an angler can pay a $250.00 entry fee and fish $2000-$4000 first place payment tournaments all year long. Or, you can pay $3000 entry fee, and fish for a bigger prize. So in a way I'm saying, it really doesn't matter what the entry fee is. If it's too high for you, there is probably another circuit with a little lower entry fee's. Everyone has to do what THEY are comfortable with. To win any of them, it takes skill, work, persistence, information, and maybe luck. If you don't have the luck factor working for ya, you likely won't see first place. No matter how good of an angler you are. I know some good ones that have gone a long time between tournament checks. I know some that are now full time pro's, and none of them do it on tournament money. But again, that's just my opinion, all I do is like to fish.
11-02-2005, 08:17 PM
Do you know when the field will be finalized for this? Did they have a deadline on the invite for acceptance?
Just curious, because I wonder how they will handle it if a significant number decline the invite. Seems like a last minute invite will be hard for people not originally on the list.
Many sponsors wanted a commitment on locations and dates quite a while ago...I'd think quite a few guys that are on the "bubble" for the elite 50 have to decide very soon to fish other tours. It might be tough for them to switch if they don't get invited until December or January.
11-02-2005, 08:45 PM
Very well stated Pete.
From the outside looking in, I would think it would be hard to ask your sponsors at this time to increase moneys paid for entry fees. If you asked me for more money, my first question as a sponsor would be how is this going to benefit me?
There are a lot of unanswered questions. What it boils down to is the return on the investment. It looks like the margins are getting tighter while expenses are going up.
I too do not like the idea of super elite pros. It is demeaning to the other fishermen that are now pro's that we look up to. As a fan, as we suppose to think less of them now that they didn't make the elite team? I thought that was the whole idea of having a qualifying championship?
Gary, I think you would make a great tourney director!
Juls, if you can, please e-mail me the duck recipe. I have a few in the freezer from this weekend, but the only way I know how to cook it is to roast it with some apples. :-)
11-03-2005, 03:16 AM
The info I received requested confirmation by Dec. 2, 2005 and a downpayment due in Jan of 2006. It would seem that to make this big of a commitment toward the Superpros, one would also need the format for the other 4 PWT qualifiers. I know that info. will weigh heavily in my decision as to what tournaments and circuits I fish this year. Hopefully that info. will be soon be forthcoming by the PWT.
Regarding a Co-angler for the FLW, I have not progressed that far. I will be fishing the FLW in 2006 however.
11-03-2005, 03:47 AM
You misunderstood (sorry if I wasn't clear about my generalities)...I wasn't talking about myself in these posts. I'm not even fishing the PWT! But, if it was my comment about 3K being tough on anyone's wallet, then I stand by that comment. I still think that is too high for the return that's listed (my opinion).
Your preaching to the choir Burr...lol Have a great day!
p.s. Got a 13 hour road trip today, to do promotions this weekend, so don't pick on me while I'm away from the computer! That wouldn't be fair! lol :popcorn:
11-03-2005, 05:58 AM
Welcome back to Houghton, see you in June!
11-03-2005, 08:09 PM
There were actually more than 50 invited to fish the Super Pro for the 1st year. I believe that the ultimate group size would be 50, therefore additional invites would not go out unless the group size drops below 50. Then they would go to their "second-round draft choices" on a 1-1 basis. That is if they will have 1 opening they will invite the next person in line. How would it feel to be added on as a second rounder.
To clarify an earlier question. The top 10 do not automatically qualify for the Championship. It is on a 1-8 ratio. If 80 or more people fish all 4 opens then the top 10 go to the championship. If only 64 fish all 4, then only 8 go and so on. The angler of the year can only come from the Super Pro Group. They will fill the opens first with the Super Pro's who want to fish all 4, then other people who wish to fish all four, then those who want to fish only 3, then those who wish to fill only 2, etc. This is being done to try to insure a full field.
Entry fees for the Super Pro tournaments for co-anglers will go up also.
Pay downs will only be 30 places on the opens.
The top 30 super pro's qualify for the championship. This means that the championship field has been cut from 50 to 40, not including amatuer of the year and the previous year's champion if he/she doesn't qualify by other formats.
Several sponsor's feel that the tournament sites are being confined to 5 states, those states already having substantial numbers of fisherpersons. All the sponsors are doing is fighting over the same dollar established fisherpersons are going to spend-they are not expanding the sport and opening new markets. When the PWT ventured out to Arkansas and Kentucky, new markets were opened. New fisherpersons in these markets bought "walleye" stuff. Stores in these area started caring "walleye stuff". I even had a call from a store in South Carolina located on a Army Corps reservoir with over 1,000 miles of shoreline that is full of good "eyes" and saugers. He wants me to come down there and show them how to catch them.
What an opportunity to be missed. How many more of these types of places are there? Sponsors are NOT going to contribute additional funding or maybe even current funding if the PWT is going to be restricted by Prime Media to the same old sites and the same old markets.
Doc Johnson NPAA #15
Moore on the Radio
11-03-2005, 10:26 PM
I heard Charlie Moore on the radio tonight. He explained the process for picking the Super Elite Pros.
He also talked about a sponsor package they created for the pros.
He also said the Super tournaments will have anywhere from 50 to 55 anglers and that the co-anglers entry fees for the Super tournaments will be $750 per event and the first place co-angler wins a Lund boat and Mercury motor valued at something like $22,000.
11-04-2005, 09:25 AM
"Mr. Tiller", you are cool in my book.
Ya gotta love a guy with your attitude.
Good luck in 2006...in whatever you decide.
11-04-2005, 04:24 PM
Pete, Gary. First of all, thanks for using your names. I think everyone posting messages should use names. I liked your comments concerning "super pros" or "elite pros". We are all just a bunch of guys fishing tournaments which are supposed to be "professioanlly" run. Now all of a sudden comes a series of tournaments which are supposed to be for the "super pros". Actually the super comes in if one can afford the super high entry fees. The fees are certainly higher than a lot of people can afford unless they are sponsored big time, which of course most of the fishermen are not. I did not get the invite as my schedule was such last year that I could not fish the PWT. But it's a good thing as there is no way I could afford to fish the with the super pros.
11-06-2005, 08:28 AM
You have certainly proven yourself to be at the top of any group of walleye tournament competitors. I am suprised you did not get an invite with, (just from memory) a PWT win, two seconds, a recent Eastern Division Title and numerous top ten finishes and PWT Championships qualified for. Not to mention all the countless volunteer hours you have donated to the PWT organizing, setting up and promoting the PWT Championships at Bismark, ND. It makes you wonder how a one year angler can be invited over anglers with your proven experience and record. Your not being included maybe an oversight on the PWT's part. If not, I would have to conclude the criteria for the Super Pro selection process is badly flawed. Have you contacted the PWT as to why you did not receive an invite? Was this an oversite?
Pete Harsh / MR.TILLER
11-06-2005, 05:49 PM
Who Cares, I have to edit out your swear words...board policy and all.
i am not sure who cares; but it would really be nice if a seasoned pro like yourself could get in touch with JK and Charlie and let them know just how rude it has been to not let the remainder of the field know what the criteria was for the SUPERSTUD level. how rude can they be to not even make one small attempt to notify the masses that built this circuit. maybe they should remember that when the SUPERSTUDS are done fishing, they might need some replacements one day...
11-06-2005, 08:34 PM
Where can you go to find out all of the date and locations? It would be nice if everyone was informed at the same time! This is very confusing.
11-07-2005, 09:49 AM
I'm telling you....if they are not going to pay cash to co-anglers, they are going to be hard pressed to find people that want to put up $750 for tackle and a shot at new boat.
11-07-2005, 11:33 AM
Don't forget the cooler!
11-07-2005, 12:14 PM
Hey Pete, I really really want to fish the Super Stud circuit.
How much will it take for you to adopt me. I think that is my quickest way in! :)
If you want to look at it in terms of a lottery plus fee - then it would be $440.00 for a 1 in 50 chance at a boat - if you value the boat at $22000 (22000 / 50 = 440).
Then it is an additional $310 for 3 days fishing with one of PWT's best, or just over $100 / day.
Not sure what the regional co-angler fee is. But to be of equal value we could back into what it would have to be to be equivilant.
$22,000 boat divided by 120 contestants = is @$185.00 for your "Lottery" ticket on a new boat. If we value time with all PWT contestants the same (Regional or Elite)add $310 = total $495.00
So if the regional co-anger fee is more than @$500, you'd have better value paying the $750 to fish the Elite series. If the co-angler fee is less than $500.00 - your better off in the regionals.
Of course all this completely ignores what water your fishing, and if your spouse knows how to operate a gun.
11-07-2005, 03:10 PM
There is NO information posted on their site yet. The only information that is out there is the letter/CD that they sent to all the people they wanted to fish their events.
11-07-2005, 08:49 PM
This is better then Comedy Central! :popcorn:
11-08-2005, 04:14 AM
I have fished several PWT's and the co-angler fee of $750 would not have me signing up again...whether I can afford it or not. It is about time the PWT paid cash to co-anglers like the FLW does. I know all the arguments that the PWT is about learning new technqiues etc, but the give-aways I have received after "winning" I either already owned or had a duplicate product. I think product give-aways are politely put frugal, or bluntly put cheap.
I am merely an amateur angler, but I think the "Super Elite" tag sends a bad message as many pros have written here. The "pay to play" philosophy with a $3,000 fee seems a radical departure from what the original PWT tournaments were about.
I plan on sticking to regional tournaments like the Western Basin Sportfishing Association holds on Erie. The PWT has seen the last of me...not that they care (or need to care) I am sure.
Perhaps this move was necessary as the days of the PWT filling out the co-angler field well before their fishing circuit even began are long over. Also, I believe much of the excitement of the orignal PWT tournaments is over as compared to when Al Lindner was actually the person on stage interviewing anglers. Maybe too much living in the past for me too.
11-08-2005, 07:22 AM
Well said. I'm an aspiring co-angler trying to figure out what the heck I'm supposed to do. Fish regional PWT?--seems obvious to me they are putting these fisherman in second class status. Fish with the SuperPros?--probably the best experience but definitely skimpy on the rewards for a $750 fee. FLW?--not supposedly the SuperPros but cash rewards. And is it just me or does it seem like the PWT is unorganized and trying to figure out what they are going to do still?
I mean it is getting close to the holidays after all. What's going on? How am I supposed to get excited about the PWT regionals where I might win some jigs and Gulp! and fish with a guy I've never heard of? I'll save my final judgement until the details are released but FLW is looking better all the time.
11-08-2005, 07:54 AM
don't forget the cooler. it works will to haul around the nice product you might win!
11-08-2005, 08:30 AM
I agree, paying 300-750 is alot of money. The co-angler should get money for their results. I have fished my last PWT event. I will however consider FLW events based upon how close to home they are. Thanks Pete, Dave, Juls for thoughts on this topic.
11-08-2005, 08:33 AM
The "lottery" as you call it has to consider most who fish as co-anglers have boats. If you sell the boat you will not get 22,000 for the boat, 14-18 thousand is the best you can hope for. If you keep the 22,000 boat you then have to equip it with electronics and trolling motor and chargers so the value of the "lottery" then goes down considerably. I personally was all set to fish the PWT as a co-angler but with the travel cost and entry fees, id have to learn an awful lot from the pros to make it worth it, AND i HAVE DRAWN Some very good pros on the FLW, so that lottery may be worth more me to me personally.
If you figure the cost in the PWT of 3,000 in co-angler entry; motel of $50x5x4=1,000(min), factor in food and gas. At least 5+ thousand dollars for a co-angler I dont think any pro can teach me that much, AND I dont do well in the lottery.
11-08-2005, 08:42 AM
Here are my questions:
If the PWT selection process is an unbiased selection, why is the actual criteria, scoring, and invite list such a secret? Typically, things like this are kept secret when they are trying to hide something.
It sounds like they have a few "token" young guys in this field, but for the most part, it sounds like the selection process favored the guys that have been doing this the longest (even if they are no longer competitive). Will this turn into the seniors tour?
11-08-2005, 09:39 AM
It's not a secret. All PWT anglers who fished in 2005 were ranked by their past fishing results in the following categories...
1) Money Won
2) Average Place of Finish
3) Top 10 Finishes
4) Championships Made
By example, lets use Money Won. They ranked approximately 180 anglers. If you finished in the top 10% of total money won (anglers 1-18, out of 180) you received 1 point. The next 18 anglers on the list received 2 points and so on. Those 18 anglers at the bottom of the money list received 10 points.
They used a similar percentage ranking system for the rest of the categories.
It's a formula based on FISHING RESULTS and is not subjective. They did not choose to invite just their "favorites". You earned your invite.
It's my understanding that all the information about rankings and the PWT Open Series will be will be released in the next week or so. Jim Carroll NPAA #333
You wanted the formulas, there they are. Who better to give an answer than a pro who should know?!?
Jim would give the answer regardless of where he's at on the PWT criteria.
11-08-2005, 10:43 AM
>It's not a secret. All PWT anglers who fished in 2005 were
>ranked by their past fishing results in the following
>1) Money Won
>2) Average Place of Finish
>3) Top 10 Finishes
>4) Championships Made
>By example, lets use Money Won. They ranked approximately 180
>anglers. If you finished in the top 10% of total money won
>(anglers 1-18, out of 180) you received 1 point. The next 18
>anglers on the list received 2 points and so on. Those 18
>anglers at the bottom of the money list received 10 points.
>They used a similar percentage ranking system for the rest of
>It's a formula based on FISHING RESULTS and is not subjective.
> They did not choose to invite just their "favorites". You
>earned your invite.
>It's my understanding that all the information about rankings
>and the PWT Open Series will be will be released in the next
>week or so. Jim Carroll NPAA #333
Thanks, BUT say a guy fished in the early 90's and was GOOD he NEVER made the money that they are paying now! Just a thought.
I find it weird that this is even an issue, but it is what it is. If infact someone had 10 top 10 finishes now compared to in the early 90's you would NOW be way ahead of the guy that did it then. The money is higher now and the feilds are smaller. RIGHT???
Just thoughts I could really careless because it's not my tour.
Nice, your criticism is without basis.
There is a 3 page letter describing the objective ranking process - I've seen it. It was sent with the invitation. The people invited to fish it, have the detail. I'm sure the remainder of the PWT field from the Open will have all the ranking detail as soon as that program is announced.
11-08-2005, 10:49 AM
I am a tournament fisherman who likes to fish tournaments (local or otherwise) for the competition and a chance to cash a check. Not for a guided day on the water, I am a guide. I cannot afford the high price of the pro-side (FLW/PWT), but would love the opportunity to cash a check on the more affordable co-angler side. If you want a guide trip, hire a guide. If you want a lotto ticket...fish the PWT. If you want a chance to earn money and cash a check...fish the FLW. That's my 2 cents.
11-08-2005, 11:16 AM
I too have fished my last PWT, not that anyone from PWT cares. If they really cared they would be doing something about it. As long as the "amateurs" continue to pay the way that allows the PWT to advertise their more than 100% payoffs they will continue to up the fees. My opinion you have to absolutely crazy to pay those continuing high entry fees for "trinkets", and then consider the poor co-anglers that get to only fish one or two days.
It is too bad that the PWT hides behind this shield of supposedly promoting these "Elite" fisherman, at the expense of all the other past and present touring pros. If they need promoting I say let them promote themselves. The PWT should do something to promote all of its members, pros and cos, not a "elite" few. The entire fishing community is no longer considered an equal. Sad day.
11-08-2005, 12:19 PM
I have to wonder how this is going to effect the pro's with their sponsorships?
I've heard grumblings from several touring pro's for several years now about those opportunities to make extra money on their contracts not being evenly spread around to all the guys. Say boat maker X has 10 pro's under the same contract and In-Fish needs to do a photo shoot and needs a pro from that makers stable of pro's for the shoot. The same 2-3 people are always getting the call to do them, and the others never get the same chance. Thus, they don't make the same incentive money for magazine appearances.
Wouldn't this new format even widen the gap even more?
Will the pro's fishing the "Open" series have the same opportunities to fulfill their contract incentives as those pro's fishing the "Elite" series?
11-08-2005, 12:22 PM
I have fished as an amature 3 times and I know that there won't be a fourth. The last time I fished the Co-angler side I got stuck with 2 guys that had no clue as to what to do. I was told by a pro that had actually won on the pwt that these guys were there because they had deep pockets and could afford it. The pwt let them fish because they agreed to fish all 6 events. My third day partner was a good fisherman and had done good on other events but this wasn't a trolling bite and was so far out fo it on day 3 that he gave very little effort.
The "prizes" that I won were mostly junk and I could have taken the money that I paid for the entry fee and gone and bought a lot better tackle than there sponsers gave away.
11-08-2005, 12:37 PM
Here we go. I really didn't want to post this, but I can't take it anymore.
Since when is the USA based on everyone being equal? The last time I checked, socialism is the government that makes everyone equal. I have read all these posts about how bad it is to seperate the Elites from the other guys and the Pros from the Ams, and I just don't get it.
Do you mean to tell me that you guys disagree with the All-Star game in Baseball and Basketball, and never watch the Pro Bowl or the IROC race? That is all the PWT is doing, creating the next level. They used hard core fishing numbers. The facts are the facts. The 50 best PWT anglers will be fishing against each other next season.
Folks, our country is founded on the difference between the ones that do it better and the ones that don't. It doesn't matter what industry you are in. They give awards for the best newspaper reporter, the best construction worker, the best engineer, the safest truck driver. Trust me, if you get one of these awards, you are more than likely getting paid more than the ones that didn't get the award.
I think this is a step in the right direction for the PWT angler that wants to fish for a living. All other professional sports work this way. In order to earn enough money to stay alive, there must be separation. There is in NASCAR with Nextel and Busch series, there is in Golf with the PGA and Nike tours. Michael Jordan didn't get rich by not making the All Star Game every year of his career. Biil Gates isn't rich because he was an OK computer guy, and Scott Golden didn't create this great web site becuase he had a mediocre idea. If you are better at somehting than the other guy/gal you should make more doing it. It is the American way.
I feel it is about time we have an All Star Game of our own. If you choose not to play in it or watch it, that is your deciscion. I know I will have my favorites and will enjoy watching things unfold. Yes, there are many arguments as to why this one made it in and that one didn't. A criteria had to be set and it was. Some got in, others didn't. No matter how they were picked, someone would have been upset.
The die has been cast, now it is up to us, as anglers, to choose our new direction. Some will go Super Pro, others will fish PWT Opens, and others the FLW. Each game or league will have its successes and failures, but they will go on. There are now three places for the professional walleye angler to survive. In my mind, that made things better for all of us.
And oh, by the way, before I get judged by everyone...I did not make the Super Pro field.
11-08-2005, 12:42 PM
It seems like you see the same handful of faces and names in their magazine anyways so this new formant will ensure that the (previously un-communicated) class structure remains in place such that the gap between the PWT proclaimed "super studs" and other pro's remains wide and continues to grow.
It would have been nice if someone at PWT sat back and thought through the impact of mailing out only the “super stud” invites without communicating to the rest of the pros who have fished with them. By not communicating to the rest of the pros, they have sent a loud and clear message – when we have everything in-place for the ‘chosen few’ then we will worry about taking your money. However in reality, this just steps it up a notch from last year where they asked you to sign up, increased the entry fee, took your money and then told you what you are fishing for during the rules meeting of the first event.
I feel sympathy for those pro’s that have chosen only to fish and/or support the PWT over the years – nice to have the tour that you helped build now communicate where you stand in their eyes.
Does anyone remember what happened to NAWA when they wanted only the top 50 anglers to fish?
Who’s NAWA you ask???
Exactly my point… !
11-08-2005, 12:48 PM
It is interesting that you mention photo shoots. The PWT sent out an invitation to every PWT pro to come to Brainerd for a photo shoot. Only ten or so pros showed up.
I do not drive boat X, but they had no problem taking pictures of me in any clothing I wanted to wear or in my boat. I doubt that they went through all the effort to not use the pictures.
Yes, the Super Pros will get more opportunity for this type of exposure in Walleye In-Sider magazine. However, there are several other places to get media exposure.
The guys that didn't make the Super Pros will have to do a few things to keep going. Create excitement about themselves, create new media outlets, and if the are not happy with that then they will have to fish better to make the Super Pro level. Personally, I think there is enough media out there for all of us to meet or exceede our media incentives. We just might have to go look for it instead of it coming to us.
11-08-2005, 01:39 PM
I think there is more than one issue being discussed here. One being whether it being a wise decision to create another level of tournament fisherman and how you describe them by name. Many of the posts do not neccessarily disagree with the concept, but the manner in which it was done. I guess I can only imagine what it would be like to one day show up for work and be told you are being sent to the minor leagues. I hope that someone don't take the stand that this is not the case, because Mr. Average fisherman will look at it this way, just as they have looked at the touring pros in the past. I believe the public has always held them above most other fisherman in ability to catch fish, and maybe rightfully so.
As a previous poster compared the fishing game to the NBA, Pro Bowl, IORC etc. this is real funny. This issue has nothing to do with those events. Lets ask Micheal Jordan what he paid for a entry into the All Star game for a chance to win the MVP trophy. The alstars are voted on, not chosen by some bios orgination. Lets ask the Pro Bowlers where their pay come from that they received for their trip to Hawaii. This being the second issue, WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM? From each other and the guy in the back of the boat.
The nice thing about this board is that at least at this level of fishing, the guy in the back of the boat has as much to say as the guy in the front of the boat. The co-anglers voicing their opinions on this site have a whole lot more experience in the back of these pro boats than any pro, so who should we listen to when it comes to judging fishing abilities?
I personally have fished thru the years with 30 of the top 120 PWT touring pros that were on the tour this year. Their abilities are as far apart as the homes that they live in. I never would mention names, but the pros can't even imagine what a co-angler sees and feels during the season. Some of us just think that the money you have to pay, for the experience you get for it, it not what we want to experience again, and I hope you will respect our opinions as you would like yours respected.
To compare the PWT picture to a jackpot roping, or a poker game with house taking a huge rake is more of a comparison that what was used by the previous poster.
11-08-2005, 04:21 PM
I think with any sport there has to be some kind of ranking system to set apart those who have worked their way to the top, and those who haven't. Those who just have the money and can play, and those who have done well and finished well. No matter who PAY's. Everyone has fund them selves somehow either through sposorship or personal funds, but those with talent will rise. And they should be rank/recognized.
11-08-2005, 04:27 PM
If that's the case, then only looking at who fished in 2005 isn't right at all.
Just my opinion...
11-08-2005, 04:36 PM
Your right Juls...maybe the criteria isn't there yet, but I still think that recognizing those who have talent and longevity is important to move it to the next level. Otherwise, my perception is it's just a rich man's sport.
11-08-2005, 04:46 PM
Is not a good comparison to Walleye tourneys and BASS tourneys professional golf? Not in every way but in some. Your have Tiger on the top...multi millionaire all the media and endorsments he'd ever want. And, you have the "no name" guy on the bottom of the money list with possibly no media and endorsements. Do they all have their entry's paid?? I'm asking, I don't know. Do some of them have to fund them selves? Obviously the fishing arena is more skewed where most have to fund themselves, where as most golfers don't. But, to make it on the money list you have to do well. Maybe I'm just thinking out loud here....interesting though...
11-08-2005, 04:50 PM
If you won prizes in a tourney as you stated, that means you placed in the top 40 places in the entire field. I find it hard to believe that you could place in the top 40 of a PWT with 3 pro's that didn't "have a clue" or didn't "put forth very much effort". If the pro's perfromed as you described you should have been somewhere near the bottom of the finish roster? Your story doesn't add up and I would guess that's because it is false and simply a bash...
11-08-2005, 06:46 PM
Bashing is ussally done by the people that are afraid to identify themselves.
11-08-2005, 11:22 PM
What most people miss when compairing racing, golfing, bowling ect. to fishing is that unlike fishing the other competive sports charge a ticket price to view the event live. The gate revenue is used along with sponsor dollars and entries to create the purse.
In racing and bowling you or your sponsor pay the entry show up and if your good enough that day you make the show. Some racing tracks even pay a trailer fee (cash back for showing up - no cars, no show).
In golf you earn a card to turn pro by beating many other golfers trying to do the same thing - note you do not compete against current pros to earn your tour card. Once you have your tour card it is simple win enough money and you keep your tour card. Nice sport where teams mean nothing once the competion begins.
Most sports decide who their elite competors are at the end of the season, not at the beginning. Last years results are old news.
11-09-2005, 01:06 PM
you are a class act. way to have a great attitude with all of the
potential negativity surrounding the terrible choices that "JK and the BOYS" have made again. When will they fire JK?
Whats the difference
11-09-2005, 01:09 PM
P.W.T = Payments We Take
Heres the difference
11-09-2005, 01:16 PM
We choose to make the payments!!
I agree what is the issue here, if invited and want to spend money go for it. On any given day anyone can be a top dog. Just some are more consistant than others.
11-09-2005, 01:32 PM
Pete: My understanding is that one of the critria was that one had to fish the PWT last season, 2005. Due to scheduling conflicts, I could not enter either all of the east or west tournaments. As you know, one can no longer just enter a tournament or two, but must sign up for a minimum of at least a division. No, I haven't talked to PWT and don't plan to as there is no way I can afford to pay the "elite" entry fees. I'm just going to wait and see how this whole thing plays out over time.
11-10-2005, 07:40 AM
Dave, according to a PWT supporter-see rule 258 para.f, Subsection IV, part bii
Sponsor exemption are available if you know the right people.
Shssssssssh it is a loophole to invite our buds. Don't tell nobody.
12-02-2005, 08:09 AM
No wonder the "Walleye Tournaments" will never be at the level of the "Bass Tournaments."
Some of these postings have been shameful. You said -- They Said...Blah, Blah, Blah...
Though I'm not a walleye tournament angler, for all of you that are posting about doing it better...start your own walleye tournament circuit!!
I would say "Thank You" to the PWT, FLW, MWC, etc, for all they do to grow the sport of fishing and tournaments. It's all about choices. Just maybe next time, if you have questions about paybacks, rules, who fishing, call the organization and don't put your "misinformation" on the web. Any if by some chance you do want to continue, put your "real" name on your posting.
For those who want to continue to whine, come on by, I'll give you some cheese!