Where will people go?

[Phil T.]

Just returned from the Leech Lake in-law vacation. Heard a rumor that 1/2 the resorts on Leech were closing or being sold this fall to make lots for "executive homes." My MN native brother-in-law says it's happening at all the "name lakes" in the state.
Are middle class Minnesotans expected to stay home and mow the lawn on all their weekends?

[Phil T.]

Just returned from the Leech Lake in-law vacation. Heard a rumor that 1/2 the resorts on Leech were closing or being sold this fall to make lots for "executive homes." My MN native brother-in-law says it's happening at all the "name lakes" in the state.
Are middle class Minnesotans expected to stay home and mow the lawn on all their weekends?

[dutchboy]

Naw........just educate our kids at water parks.

Can't blame the resort owners, they are getting alot of cash thrown at them. It's truely sad to see the way things are going.

[dutchboy]

Naw........just educate our kids at water parks.

Can't blame the resort owners, they are getting alot of cash thrown at them. It's truely sad to see the way things are going.

[worker]

Ummm....I don't think there will be a middle class left in this country to worry about. So might as well sell now while you can get a good price for the property. I think the recreation business(resorts) will slow down alot over the next ten years.

Which boat manufacture will survive?? Tracker? LOL

[worker]

Ummm....I don't think there will be a middle class left in this country to worry about. So might as well sell now while you can get a good price for the property. I think the recreation business(resorts) will slow down alot over the next ten years.

Which boat manufacture will survive?? Tracker? LOL

[hermit]

I thought I was the only one seeing this, the good old days are long gone! I dont think there will be much of a middle class in U.S. I will except being poor and without gas but I will do it in Canada by myself in solitude. Perhaps one day there will be a civil war, lol its gonna get worse!!

[hermit]

I thought I was the only one seeing this, the good old days are long gone! I dont think there will be much of a middle class in U.S. I will except being poor and without gas but I will do it in Canada by myself in solitude. Perhaps one day there will be a civil war, lol its gonna get worse!!

[Phil T.]

Many of the towns I drove through along Highway 200 had signs proclaiming a tax-free lot if new building was done.
If MN doesn't do the same for "resort" property, I'm thinking they're killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Of course, I may be wrong and all MN tourism is tied to the Mall of America.

[Phil T.]

Many of the towns I drove through along Highway 200 had signs proclaiming a tax-free lot if new building was done.
If MN doesn't do the same for "resort" property, I'm thinking they're killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Of course, I may be wrong and all MN tourism is tied to the Mall of America.

[Phil T.]

Without a middle class, who pays the taxes? The lower class has no money, the upper class contributes to legislators' campaigns to gain tax breaks.
A couple years ago, my CPA showed me how much I could save if I were worth ten times as much as I am (the breaks aren't worth it or don't apply at my asset level).

[Phil T.]

Without a middle class, who pays the taxes? The lower class has no money, the upper class contributes to legislators' campaigns to gain tax breaks.
A couple years ago, my CPA showed me how much I could save if I were worth ten times as much as I am (the breaks aren't worth it or don't apply at my asset level).

[Sportdog unlogged]

This has happened around here in southwestern Michigan and it has been a mixed blessing. The good thing is that the tax base has greatly improved and the rich folks from Illinois and Indiana are paying a stiff price to build these beautiful homes on the lake. Also the lakes are getting a tremendous amount of speedboats and jet skis but the fishing pressure has somewhat slowed. (unless there is a bass tournament) The downside is that the lakes with no public access are lost forever because none of the locals can afford the lake front property. Another option is renting these nice homes and cottages because the owners try to recover some of the cost of ownership. It is sad to see these resorts go by the wayside and I feel your pain.

[Sportdog unlogged]

This has happened around here in southwestern Michigan and it has been a mixed blessing. The good thing is that the tax base has greatly improved and the rich folks from Illinois and Indiana are paying a stiff price to build these beautiful homes on the lake. Also the lakes are getting a tremendous amount of speedboats and jet skis but the fishing pressure has somewhat slowed. (unless there is a bass tournament) The downside is that the lakes with no public access are lost forever because none of the locals can afford the lake front property. Another option is renting these nice homes and cottages because the owners try to recover some of the cost of ownership. It is sad to see these resorts go by the wayside and I feel your pain.

[Dacotah Eye]

For years I have said that our jobs will be outsourced and unions will be gone. I've had lots of poeple laugh at me and seen a lot of it happen in my lifetime. Like was said , two classes, the very rich and the very poor. Makes me glad that I'm older and retired. It's gonna get to the point that there will be no one left to pay the taxes for the rich and they may have to pay their fair share. End of sermon.:banging: :cheers:

[Dacotah Eye]

For years I have said that our jobs will be outsourced and unions will be gone. I've had lots of poeple laugh at me and seen a lot of it happen in my lifetime. Like was said , two classes, the very rich and the very poor. Makes me glad that I'm older and retired. It's gonna get to the point that there will be no one left to pay the taxes for the rich and they may have to pay their fair share. End of sermon.:banging: :cheers:

[batman1]

There is a resort on leech that is doing that. They could not get a guarantee that the resort would stay open when they put it up for sale so they are selling off the individual cabins. The buyer can stay for up to 8 weeks a year and the resort will rent out the cabin for the remainder and the individual owners will get the rental money.

[batman1]

There is a resort on leech that is doing that. They could not get a guarantee that the resort would stay open when they put it up for sale so they are selling off the individual cabins. The buyer can stay for up to 8 weeks a year and the resort will rent out the cabin for the remainder and the individual owners will get the rental money.

[Clydesdale]

Hermit, would you like to live in Red China? Your statement regarding seizing land borders on gross stupidity. Here in the U.S. we can hold land and property and do what what we want with it within reason.

[Clydesdale]

Hermit, would you like to live in Red China? Your statement regarding seizing land borders on gross stupidity. Here in the U.S. we can hold land and property and do what what we want with it within reason.

[Fish_on]

It is not just Leech or the "Name lakes" it is all the resorts. I heard a statistic that something like 60% of the resorts in Cass county have closed in the last 10 years. THat's the biggest resort county in the state of MN. Look at it this way:

You own a resort with 12 cabins. You work hard and enjoy running a resort and you make about 50k a year. You can keep doing that, or you can sell the cabins off individually for $100,000 each. What are you going to do?

Yup, that's just what they are doing. I know one resort on a small lake near here that had an open house and sold 7 of his 11 cabins for $99,000 each the first weekend. And these cabins were nothing to get excited about, they were old run-down cabins and not even on the lake, but he offered lake "access" with the purchase of a cabin.

The days of family resorts up north in Minnesota are just about over.

[Fish_on]

It is not just Leech or the "Name lakes" it is all the resorts. I heard a statistic that something like 60% of the resorts in Cass county have closed in the last 10 years. THat's the biggest resort county in the state of MN. Look at it this way:

You own a resort with 12 cabins. You work hard and enjoy running a resort and you make about 50k a year. You can keep doing that, or you can sell the cabins off individually for $100,000 each. What are you going to do?

Yup, that's just what they are doing. I know one resort on a small lake near here that had an open house and sold 7 of his 11 cabins for $99,000 each the first weekend. And these cabins were nothing to get excited about, they were old run-down cabins and not even on the lake, but he offered lake "access" with the purchase of a cabin.

The days of family resorts up north in Minnesota are just about over.

[DaveB]

My father had a place on Vermilion. One of the major factors of him selling was the sky rocketing property taxes.

He was and is still middle class. Maybe if they werent taxed so much, people would keep their places. It isnt always a factor of income.

BTW-as much as you talk about it, you can still not provide any actual evidence of a shrinking middle class. It only exists in John Kerry's head.

[DaveB]

My father had a place on Vermilion. One of the major factors of him selling was the sky rocketing property taxes.

He was and is still middle class. Maybe if they werent taxed so much, people would keep their places. It isnt always a factor of income.

BTW-as much as you talk about it, you can still not provide any actual evidence of a shrinking middle class. It only exists in John Kerry's head.

[Marble Eyes]

Now wait a minute. Back in the Spot Clinton Era he told us he was only gonna raise the taxes on the rich. He then got the tax laws passed that raised the taxes on anyone making 35k or more.

He then signed NAFTA.


Looks like it was the Bend one that eliminated the middle class. }(

Jorge Delano Bush just wants the Illegals to do your jobs and use up all that social spending you pay those taxes for.

Welcome to Amerika, home of the two party Cartel.

[Dacotah Eye]

NAFTA and GATT are wonderful ways to eliminate jobs in the USA. Just our politicians bending us over for their gain. Get rid of the incumbants and keep changing politicians so they don't get the chance to become really corrupt. Better yet, get rid of PAC money and make lobbying illegal. It would be done under the table anyway. Why would you spend 20 to 30 million dollars to land a job that pays 400 thousand a year for 4 years if you wouldn't gain in other ways? As far as no shrinking middle class goes, the only way many of us are still living at the middle class level at this time when compared to the 70s, is the fact that it now takes two people working to remain middle class. I went through it and watched it happen. My wife stayed home and raised our kids and we learned to get along without some things that we wanted. I figured it would be best. Have you ever wondered where "latch key kids" came from? There are kids out there that are more "world wise" at 12 years old than their parents were at 30. Just my .02 after 63 years of experience.:cheers:

[Not_only_resorts]

Not only the resorts are disappearing.

In the early 1940's my grandfather worked an extra job to purchase a cabin and land. Back in those days a cabin was for all aspects...low, middle and upper class. Anyone could afford it if they wanted to.

The family still has this wonderful gem and hope to keep it for many years, but it's the taxes that are driving all the blue collar class out the window. Middle class cannot even afford a "cabin" anymore, unless the middle class are now in the $200K salary range. The term cabin is almost gone....it's lakehome now.

I am fixing my grandfather's original cabin that was built in 1948. It is going to remain a cabin. A simple place to relax, swim, fish and not worry about every day life.

The enormous taxes are driving many old cabin owners out and new mansions built left and right.

It's sad.

[Fish_on]

You are so right about the cabins. Lakeshore land only is $200k to $500k per LOT around these lakes. There are people who have had a cabin in the family for generations that they paid next to nothing for, and now all of the sudden it is worth $600,000 and they can't afford to pay the taxes. Terrible.

What also amazes me is that people pulling down six figures think they are middle class.

[Unlogged Blackmacs]

One of the worst things with the change over to McMansions is that these people want a city lot right on the lake. They turn an undeveloped shoreline into a beach and then proceed to kill all the vegetation along and in the lake. Foot by foot, mile by mile on our lakes spawning habitat is being destroyed by develpoment. I wish the state of Minnesota would make it a priority to buy up lakeshore and forest lands that come up for sale.

[REW]

I suspect that a good part of the sell decison on the part of the resort business has been their level of business and its decline in the last few years due to the state of the fishery.

Leech is too large a lake for a family to just come for a kiddy care and ski vacation. Leech is a lake that had had a wonderful fishery and a large % of the repeat business was from the faithful fishermen who came for years and years.

However, due to the sadly steady decline of the fishery, more and more of the faithful folks decided to make plans elsewhere.

So, in recent years, many of the resorts have lost a substantial portion of their former repeat business.

When faced with potential ruin, or the opportunity to bank a million dollars and walk away with no further day to responsibilities, what would you do.

It is a simple matter of economics.

Take care
REW

[Koldfront Kraig]

I bet the Russians were having these same conversations in the early 1900's about the poor working man and the shrinking middle class before their great revolution took place. Where did it get them?

A lot of middle class families have two incomes.

How else are they going to pay for the 2 brand new SUV'S, a Harley, new boat, 2 snowmobiles and a 4 bedroom, 4 bathroom house with big screen plasma TV's with surround sound a 3 car garage?

Growing up in a middle class family has changed. Growing up in the seventies, we didn't have all the luxuries that people think are necessities today.

We average people have it WAY better in America than any other country in the world.

------------------------------------------------------

I work hard at underachieving….. but not too hard


Koldfront Kraig

[Koldfront Kraig]

I bet the Russians were having these same conversations in the early 1900's about the poor working man and the shrinking middle class before their great revolution took place. Where did it get them?

A lot of middle class families have two incomes.

How else are they going to pay for the 2 brand new SUV'S, a Harley, new boat, 2 snowmobiles and a 4 bedroom, 4 bathroom house with big screen plasma TV's with surround sound a 3 car garage?

Growing up in a middle class family has changed. Growing up in the seventies, we didn't have all the luxuries that people think are necessities today.

We average people have it WAY better in America than any other country in the world.

------------------------------------------------------

I work hard at underachieving….. but not too hard


Koldfront Kraig

[thunderstix]

Same thing here in WI....Most of our major resorts have sold off as smaller lake lots with the cabins or they are ripping down the cabins and building large condos. We stayed at a larger resort in Nisswa about a month ago and the long time owner said this is the future and soon enough you won't have too many resort owners. He also mentioned that the local economy will take a hit on all this, too. He said the avg person who visits the resort, will make the trip(s) to town and restaurants and blow their $500-1000 trip money VS the person who will buy the condo and not spend as much in the local economy. Now, that's how he explained it and I am sure it works both ways.

[rock2me]

The state does not have to go that far - buying lakeshore. They need to enforce the current laws and maybe extend them so that no more than 1/2 of your lakeshore be developed within x feet of the shore. To enforce it, they take a picture before and after of the lot from the lake and record the details.

The place next to ours just sold last fall - 125ft of lakeshore. You could always count on a turtle on the log in front of their place and frogs in the weeds. Now, it has been cleared of everything, shore and water. It is now a nice place for a swim or to ride the lawnmower over. Not too good for the lake, though. I guarantee there will be manicured lawn up to the beach by next year and not a speck of weeds in the water.

Those manicured lawns to the water's edge make me so mad. I don't get why they want their retreat to be just like their home???

[worker]

<any actual evidence of a shrinking middle class>

And you probly never will either.LOL

But i can show you evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction!!

[Koldfront Kraig]

> He said the avg
>person who visits the resort, will make the trip(s) to town
>and restaurants and blow their $500-1000 trip money VS the
>person who will buy the condo and not spend as much in the
>local economy. Now, that's how he explained it and I am sure
>it works both ways.

Most people I know who own lakeshore or hunting property go into town and spend money.

------------------------------------------------------

I work hard at underachieving….. but not too hard


Koldfront Kraig

[rock2me]

>As far as no
>shrinking middle class goes, the only way many of us are still
>living at the middle class level at this time when compared to
>the 70s, is the fact that it now takes two people working to
>remain middle class. I went through it and watched it happen.
>My wife stayed home and raised our kids and we learned to get
>along without some things that we wanted. I figured it would
>be best. Have you ever wondered where "latch key kids" came
>from? There are kids out there that are more "world wise" at
>12 years old than their parents were at 30. Just my .02 after
>63 years of experience.:cheers:

People throw around the term "middle-class", which has no meaning anymore. What is middle-class? How much do you need to make/own to be in this broad category?

Truth is, the middle class has far more than the generation of the 70's. The technology, cars, cable, clothes, foods, dining, entertaiment. Go back and ask yourself what you had/did in the 70's. You probably rarely went out to eat, or a show. Vacations were shorter. You may have owned one car and one TV.

Today's middle class eats out regularly, has at least two cars and two TV's. Many have a toy or two: a boat, motorcycle, rv, trailers. Most have computers and internet. Many are also living in houses twice the size as the previous generation. The definition of middle class has really shot up over the last couple decades.

It is more than the money, it is socially acceptable for the spouse to work - blame ERA if you want. That's what progress has gotten us - good/bad/otherwise.

[Democrat UL]

I can't afford to fish in the midwest. It isn't just the gas to get there; you're lucky to find a campsite for $25 a night. Here out west, there's lots of public land and plenty of cheap places to camp. At many places I fish, the camping is free. I've gotten spoiled on it. This spring, I spent 2 1/2 weeks camping and fishing in eastern Washington for $300, all spent on gas and food. Camping = zilch. I can't do that in Wisconsin.

[JJ Mac]

Where will the middle class go?

I agree as far as lakefront property goes. Seeing the old cabins on the lake is probably going to become a thing of the past, whether they are private or resorts.

In the area where I live in Northern Michigan (Walloon Lake, Lake Charlevoix, Torch Lake, etc.) I've seen $700,000 , 5 year old homes,
get bought up and torn down just for the property and a new building site for a mansion. In many areas they just make it as hard as possible for the public to even launch a boat and park.

There will still exist a market for mom and pop motels and cabins, and in my estimation, good opportunities for the future. Why? One big craze I see falling by the wayside is the big truck/fifth wheel campers. These are owned primarily by upper middle class. With gas prices, this bubble has burst. It's much cheaper to stay in a motel or resort in most situations. Unfortunately, they'll just keep getting pushed further from the lake, and have little history or rustic appeal. Sad.

But to everyone I say this! If you have your own perfect little corner in the world--whether it's a resort or your own cabin, hunting land, etc. think about it before you sell out. You only have one life to live, and the last time I checked they weren't making land anymore.

Not just the rich buying up property are to blame for this situation. Demand, even from the middle class is changing. Heck, I go up to the U.P. of Michigan and especially in the early summer, the cabin and resort places are hurting for business. Then you go by the casino and the hotel is full??????????

[Dacotah Eye]

You can bet that the persons with all the money that are buying up all the lake property do not and will not give any thought as to where you, I or anyone else goes fishing as long as it isn't on their lake. There is a guy selling two lots on a dumpy little lake here in SD with nothing on it to attract anyone. one has 103 feet af lake frontage and the other has 115 feet of frontage. One thousand bucks per foot of frontage. Everyone thinks he is out of his mind. I think someone will buy it to keep others from getting it.:(

[Phil T.]

If we didn't just stay at that one, we stayed at one like it.

[Phil T.]

If we didn't just stay at that one, we stayed at one like it.

[Phil T.]

But they don't spend as much. I saw only two guys helping customers in Reeds' fishing department.
A few years ago, there were at least a half dozen.

[Smitty]

From what I hear, $1,000/ft for lake frontage is a bargain these days.. Our local lake (already pretty heavily developed and one of few lakes in the area)is going for $3,000+ per running foot and where we go in Mn the resort owner said their property tax valuation (which is generally less that market value) is at $1,300 per running foot.

I only get to these places a couple weeks a year, so the expense of a trailer or owning property even if I could afford it at these prices isn't logical, but it's getting tougher every year to find resorts available. The lake we stay at has gone from 12-13 resorts 5 or 6 years ago to around 4 or 5 now. The rest are now either condos or the cabins were sold off individually. I can see where with the taxes and value of the property, it makes a tough choice when you can either "cash out" or rely on a business where the busy season runs maybe 5 months out of the year and do it so that those who can't afford lake homes can still pay the bill for the resort. Sad situation... ;(

[Muskiefool]

Very ugly up there, sad deal, and as for the middle class maybe they want them gone, it has happened before, and taxes will be shifted into Fee's and increased fines kinda like what they are doing now, LOL, the resorts are fading fast and if you don't have 3-400,000 to drop on your own you'll be reading about it or camping at the KOA and launching in the public landing for 25 bucks to help pay them taxes.

[DaveB]

I am really amused at the responses here. I think we need to teach economics in school.


We have a growing population that enjoys leisure. We have a source of leisure (lakeshore cabins) that is limited-we arent making more. What happens to the price of something where the supply is limited (see NYC). The other factor is that cars go faster and further and roads are now everywhere, so more people have access to areas that were once not feasible for a weekend away.


This isnt a result of a shrinking middle class, it is a result of more people demanding a limited resource. People are doing better than ever.


What I keep hearing is almost an entitlement mentality that middle class people should be able to afford not only a 1st home, but a 2nd vacation home too.

[I Agree]

On average, we have it better than anybody.
You can really get yourself depressed into believing we have it bad by watching the daily political spin which disguises itself as "network news".

[I Agree]

On average, we have it better than anybody.
You can really get yourself depressed into believing we have it bad by watching the daily political spin which disguises itself as "network news".

[Farm and Ranch]

This is also what has forced so many third and fourth generation ranches and farms to sell.
The family owned the farm or ranch outright at one time. Dad dies, the kids cannot pay the inheritance tax on the inflated value so they must sell the ranch. Or, one offspring attempts uphold the family heritage and takes it over. This kid may be the best farmer in the world, but he can't make it pay the tax load and pay off his siblings so and he slowly approaches bankruptcy year after year because it cannot be done. Now comes some rich cat who offers to buy it for his recreation area or a hunting club. The farmer has no choice.
Thus, comes the misunderstood and much maligned, but genuine need of tax relief in the areas of capital gains and inheritance taxes. These aren't wealthy people involved. They have to sell.

[TL]

You are correct on that. Everyone wants to go to Walmart and buy a tv for $100 but then they complain that we have to outsource the work overseas to find cheap enough labor to do the job. Not just the labor but the cost to meet all the regulations associated with US workers(workmens comp, family leave act, etc.) You can't have it both ways. If the resort owners charged based on the property values, no one would go there so they might as well sell.

I'm middle class, my neighbor makes more than me (even though he works alot harder) is rich. Tax the he** out of him.