What Is Up With America?

[Jim McCullough]

So I'm in line tonight at Home Depot. I had to pick up some supplies to lay linoleum with. The kid in line ahead of me looks to be about 18. The cashier looked like she was around 28. The kid was writing a check and asked her what date it was. I chimed in that it was June 6th, the anniversary of D-day. They both looked at me like I was from another friekin' planet. Then he says, "What's D-day?" She looks at me with a quizzical look on her face like she wants to know what it is too. I told them that they better go back and look in their history books as it is one of the most important days in history. He shrugs his shoulders and she says, "I hate history." I hate history. I just don't get it. It's not like I am in line for my AARP card. I am 35 years old. Is this really what we are producing these days?

[btpf]

I work for a historical society doing computers and today
I mentioned to an archivist that it was D-day today and she
said "Is it?" I couldnt believe it. LOL

If you have ever online gamed you will see thousands and
thousands of complete idiots age 12-25 with no respect for
anything or anybody.

I can only imagine what things will be now in 20 years.
It kind of scares me.

[Sponge]

I won't get rolling on this one other than to say....the whole system is heading the wrong direction to a degree...having listened to teachers from across the country I get the idea that it starts at home...so many 2 income families...so little time.

As for my son who just turned 6 2 weeks ago, he WILL be taught the following.....
-To say yes/no sir/mam to ALL people regardless
-To extend a firm handshake
-To respect the rights + property of others
-To defend/protect those who are bullied
-To be a friend to those that are "different"
-To give him a good spiritual foundation
-To do his best in school/choices he makes afterwards
-To teach him a good work ethic; no constant handouts
-----all I can do as a Dad is try...+ try I will...I have/will make mistakes but my son will be schooled the old fashioned way. I wasn't the brightest crayon in the box + learned the hard way. The time we give to our kids will reap rewards later! Some of Hulberts hopefully will share their views on the school system up there....

[Marc Thorpe]

Jim and others,its not America.
Its society and our social living thats twirling down the bowl.
The word NO has not been taught enough.
I am young but me father was part of the ww2 and some lessons were passed on.I sometimes think I am alone to understand our elder generation thinking.But its thinking has more consideration for others than todays thinking.
its all ...what about me
How about...what about all of us.
We is not used much in conversations,but more I's
marc

[BigUgly]

Jim,

You should have asked them if they knew what "goosestepping" was. When they said "no" you say "D-Day is the reason you don't."

Going to LOTW in a week. I'm so fired-up I can't even see straight.

Brad

[Jim McCullough]

Brad,

That is an awesome statement and it made me laugh. I bet if I asked them what the Tom Cruise movie that was just released was or who is in the NBA finals they would have known that.

Marc,
My wife's cousin is a child Psychiatrist. Believe it or not, she is raising her child without ever using the word "no". She feels that it limits children. She actually has never said no to her child. She also doesn't want anyone else to say it to her. They were all at the family Christmas get together, and little gobby starts pulling ornaments off of the tree. My Mother-in-law yells "NO!" at her. You would have thought that that she took a swing at her with the way Mommy reacted. I told the family if they ever come to my house and the kid does something I don't allow my own kids to do, that kid is going to hear the word no as loud as I can say it and in as many languages as my small brain can figure out to say it in. Her Mom and Dad think it is weird too. Talk about disrespecting your parents. She is a great girl, all she needs to do is take a look at how she was raised. She turned out to be self-confident, respectful, (except when you tell her kid no)and obviously very intelligent. Where's the disconnect? Why wouldn't she say to herself, "I turned out great and my parents said no to me, it should be fine to say it to my kid." If a family has a long lineage of turning out good kids, why would you change it and say, "They did it wrong. I can do it better by reading a book." Stuff like that drives me nuts.

Rik,

You and I are cut from the same mold. My wife and I decided before we had kids, that we didn't want daycare. She made more money than I did, so I won and I get to stay at home with them. I don't like to use the word poor when describing us because I have seen people who are truly poor. We have a house on a lake and a number of older vehicles. That isn't poor. We are cash poor though. That is why if you see me on the water, you will notice that my Lund Mr. Pike is from 1979. All of my vehicles have over 100,000 miles on them. Sometimes when I see someone at the landing with a $35,000 Ranger, whose trailer is worth more than my boat, I do get a twinge of jealousy. But when I get back home and see how great my kids are, it disappears fast.

[tomcat]

Hi Sponge, thanks for the opportunity. I'm a single father (and my son lives w/ me), so i can relate to this message. I think it is very important for the parents to be very involved in their child's education or school system. ALot of info comes to them, but they need to be able to reason what they should listen to what not to. I believe teachers are teaching about our country's history for the fight of freedom, but kids are not taking an interest to it. Most children have parents and then the electronic parents....TV, VCR, video games, you guys know what i'm talking about. THen as they get older, they really lose interest in learning about why they have all these freedoms. Why do they lose even more interest?? Well, now it's a minority for a child to have a parent that doesn't work. THe breakdown of the basic nucleus of a family is detrimental to the kids. and why is the this breaking down$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ WE have so much to buy here in america, so both parents "have" to work.
I'm planning on expanding my musky fishing team..you know my family...sometime in the future w/ my new gal, and we've decided on what Jim has said, someone will be there for our new child. IF that means we can't upgrade the to 2003 new truck, so be it. as long as we can try our best to help our children unfold into respectable young adults, you don't really care you still have that 15 year old rig.

As parents we are responsible for surround our children w/ the right people, so if you don't like your school, work a little harder, make some sacrifices and send your children to a school you'd be more happy w/.

and one other thing..for anyone who studied psychology...It's in males's mental nature to think that people younger than us are inferior or that we (older males)have gone thru too much for youngsters to to be equal to us...not stiring the pot, just reporting facts.

Being a teacher isn't a glamourous job, so the postion doesn't always attract the best candidates (like being a cop). So we can just hope that we send our children to adults who will try to help us to meet the curiculum we set AT HOME. I agree, there is something wrong when someone doesn't even know what D-Day is...i'm afraid w/ the way money controls our country, it's not going to get any better...by the way, i love my job that pays me well.

I hate typing, and i think i can never really convey what message i am ever trying to say on email or one these boards.

Good luck to all this weekend, nail a hog and let her go for other to enjoy.
Keep it reel
tomcat

[tomcat]

Brad, you'll have a blast. have you been there(LOTW) before? if i was you, i couldn't sit still. no way.
tomcat

[BigUgly]

tomcat,

A friend of mine and I were just talking about how long we've been going up there. We figured out 12 years. I still get this excited after better than a decade. What an excellent hobby this is!

Brad

[Dirt Esox]

Watch yourself, you might get hit with one of the generalizations flying around in here. I'm 25 and know a ##### sight more about WWII than most people twice my age. Maybe it's just me but I don't think self-righteousness was a prized character trait in the old days, either. My buck O' two.

Roger Broadbent

[RoyC]

I agree with all of you that see two-income families as contributing to many problems. I hate it when people say that things are tougher now then they used to be and therefore both parents have to work. My mother stayed at home and raised her kids while my dad worked, and my dad never even graduated high school. I don't remember lacking anything significant when I was a kid. My dad did work his butt off running his own construction business, 60 hour work weeks were the shortest ones that I can remember. It seemed like longer work weeks for one spouse with the other staying at home was the norm then. I just don't buy the idea that both spouses have to work these days. My wife is a stay-at-home mom, and because of that, we don't drive new cars and go on expensive vacations like we could if she worked. But we have no regrets at all, nor do our kids.

As for raising kids, I don't rely on the schools for much any more. They seem to still adequately teach the basics, and I try to ignore or undo the other stuff that they teach my kids. As for my kids not knowing what D-day is about, I alway try to explain stuff like that, but it probably doesn't sink in. My kids didn't live through WWII, nor did their parents (my wife and I), and unfortunately, they don't get to spend enough time around their grandparents like I did to hear about what happened from someone who experienced it first hand. Heck, my kids don't know what an 8-track tape is and can't believe that I we didn't have cable TV or a home computer when I was a kid. I told them once that their grandparents didn't have indoor plumbing when they were kids, and they were flat out dumbfounded!

So I guess that I am not quite as concerned about them not understanding D-day. Unfortunately, they will remember 9/11 for a long time.

Roy

[Da Bears]

Here is an interesting link from cnn.com today!

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/06/07/france.molluscs/index.html

It is on the beach from d-day, and how a company wants to use it to produse clams!

[Phishin]

I really think that teacher's salaries are a huge contributor to the downfall of our school systems. I would love to be a school teacher....I really would. But it's not even a reality because I don't want to make school teacher salaries. Not that there's anything wrong with making 23-32K a year, but the brighter you are in college, most likely, you're gonna end up with better paying jobs. I really think that if teacher's made 50-60K a year, bright, intelligent, and motivated college students would choose grade/high school teaching as a career.

But instead, those extra bright, intelligent college kids go on to medical school, law school, or get high paying jobs right out of college. They turn their noses up to teacher's salaries. I know I did. It's nobel to be a teacher, and it's very hard to take that career path knowing that in 5-10 years, you could be making twice or even triple what a teacher makes. We all look out for number 1 first, we have to and if we want our education system to get any better, we need better people in the classrooms leading our kids.

But I think that parent's also don't spend near enough time with their kids...showing them the world and teaching them things that you have learned through experience.

This might sound a little corny, but I have to tell this story: My parents were divorced when I was 6, so when my dad came and picked us up for the weekend, we always had a hour car ride to his house. Those hour car rides were filled with every day knowledge...they were mini-lectures by my dad. For instance, we would stop at a stop light and he would point to a tree in someone's yard and tell us, "Boys, that's a sycamore tree". and he would tell us how you indentify a sycamore tree from a birch tree. Or we would be on the highway and at every by-pass, my dad would say, "See that big pond over there, why do you think there is a big pond near every by-pass on this highway??" ...after we passed 5 or 6 exits, he told us that those ponds are there because they needed the dirt to build up the road so that the underpass would exist. And it all made sense.

My dad filled our heads with knowledge about all kinds of stuff like that and you'd be amazed at how many people never realized that there is almost always a pond near every under-pass on the highway, let alone why the pond is even there. That was quality time that really has a big influence on your life down the road. I think not only do parents need to spend more time with their kids, but they need to teach and instill rules and codes of behavior/respect, and remember that their children are just that...children, and they have a whole world out there that they don't understand. Don't just babysit your kids, teach them, give them a headstart on a world that is very complex and filled with all kinds of evils.

Peace Out.
Steve Hulbert

[Ketamine]

I work in the Emergency Department and see all walks of life and often their kids. Quite frankly I am disgusted at how many of these kids are allowed to say and do things I would never have gotten away with. IMO it does all boil down to spending time with your kids and teaching them by example how to act. My grandparents were also very involved in my life and this really helps one to appreciate older generations.

Probably my biggest problem with people is the lack of accountability. People just don't take responsibility for their actions and the 'system' isn't helping them one bit. I'll bet most of us would be stunned to see the number of people who have made a living out of public aid. This is your money they're taking and many (not all) have never had or tried to get a job. When they live their lives like this their kids learn by example and continue the tradition. No respect for anyone, no job, no responsibility. It's really pathetic and I, for one, vote for those who at least claim to want reform in these areas.

Sorry to get off topic a bit but I was glad to see the opportunity to vent a little. I'm happy to hear from people who feel something is wrong with the way society is progressing. We will teach our kids right from wrong and those are the kids who will be our future leaders.

Doug

[Ramses scribe]

There is a line from a Neil Simon play, I think the title is Brighton Beach Memoirs, where an older lead character in a moment of anguish recites the line "Wisdom doesn't come with age, wisdom comes with wisdom. I'm 65 years old and I don't know s**t!" Now that I'm in that age category, I often think of that line and how true it is, at least for me. I mention this simply to qualify what I am about to say as being my own opinion and perceptions, formed over time from the perspective of my little corner of the world.

When I was a young child, I had a sense that I was a PART of a family, not that I WAS the family. I see so many young kids being treated as if they are the center of the universe. What's wrong with telling a kid that mom or dad or someone else is talking now and it's not polite to interrupt? Or that a restaurant of department store is not the appropriate place to play? Will they be so disadvantaged if they don't have the latest toy to hit the market, some of them under the guise of "teaching tools"? Allowing kids to do whatever they want whenever they want is doing them a disservice when they have to start interacting with others in school, work, etc.

When I was a child I had a feeling of strong ties to friends, family, community and country. I had a sense of roots - a base of foundational values and security that would always be there for me no matter what. In those days, in my world, it was just assumed that you would live out your life in that same neighborhood, and that when you entered the work force you would retire from that employer. Again, a strong feeling of belonging. Today it's unusual to spend more than three years with an employer, or live more than five years in the same house. I'm not saying that's bad in itself, but it has contributed to a growing condition of anomie in my opinion.

Another disturbing trend I see growing is the concept of "world citizenship" versus nationalism, especially among people in their late teens and twenties. This concept holds that there exists a world community, and concepts such as allegiance to country and national sovereignty are selfish, old fashioned and counter productive. Those espousing this viewpoint tend to favor socialism as the preferred form of government. Alarmingly, the movement seems to have a strong following in the academic world.

So what has all this got to do with D-Day? Simply this. If you don't place value on discipline and sacrifice, if you don't feel an allegiance to anything, if you have no roots, how can you possibly be expected to understand the implications of D-Day?

A final thought. Those professing world citizenship tend to be the ultra-liberal idealists, and feel that any type of armed conflict is immoral, thus it follows that the honoring of an event such as D-Day is also immoral. My response to that position is this - on the intellectual evolutionary scale, we're not very far from the caves. Even with the preponderance of laws and religious precepts existent to govern our behavior, we still haven't figured out how to get along with each other. Until we evolve beyond our aggressive primitive nature, there will be armed conflict, and those "world citizens" better hope the superior firepower is in the hands of the good guys.

Tom Filipowicz

[Sponge]

Perfectly said...perfectly done Tom....

[Eck]

Well you I have to put in my three cents. because I have three kids. For those of you who dont know me yet, My name is Jared my wife and I have two year old triplets. My wife was a school teacher before we had the kids. She was a teacher because she loved to teach not because she wanted the summers off. Someone already said it, teachers dont make squat. Most of the good teachers have gone to other good paying jobs this leaves the morons to teach are children. My wife left teaching to stay home and raise are kids. that took away half our income at the same time we brought home three newborn babies. It has not been easy at all. But it is our life I will not have anyone else raise my kids. I sold a 16 1/2 foot walleye boat and a 96 F150 to pay off some bill because I new my family came first. Now I drive a beat up 85 chevy and musky fish out of a 14 foot camo Jon boat. I am a VERY rich man. I have a loving wife three great kids. I plan to teach them everything I can and I also plan to learn a lot of thing myself along with them. People today expect the schools to teach all the things one should learn at home. The thing kids need most today is not school. Its parents to care enough to teach.

sorry this got long, But I feel better now.

see ya all on the water, Eck.

[ManitouDan]

Great post to read before going to church this morning. MAKES ME PROUD TO BE A MUSKY FISHERMAN ! As a general rule my bro and I think you dont meet or talk to many musky fisherman who are disrespectful of anything, whether it be history, or respect of nature , or respect for your elders. Lets face it, if you are willing to spend your recreational hours working like a dog chasing these fish, you are not a lazy person. You gotta be a go getter to stick in this sport. Thanks to all the previous guys who posted , and thanks for raising your kids in the proper way , with respect and a sense or right wrong. I hope my kids age 6 and 9 can grow up in a well adjusted society , although after reading about parents who don't use the word "NO" I am worried. It's a real jungle out there in the big world. Now a bad comment about a musky guy -- This weekend I went to fish Piedmont lake in ohio , 4 hrs from where I live , at the ramp we saw a guy with musky stickers on his boat coming in, I told him we fished musky also , had never been on the lake before and could he tell us what areas in general are better than others ( like which end of the lake is better ) His reply -- Why would I tell you anything, your a musky fisherman. Then proceeds to brag about catching a 53 last year , Well there always a bad apple in the bushel. Take Care All Good luck this upcoming season --- ManitouDan

[Dan Dean]

Jim good post, with two kids 10 and 11 in school we see this every year. We have to go to the school and demand they give veterans day the same weight as earth day if you can beleive that, with that it barely gets a mention. Public schools from what I can see are starting to rewrite American history and what you witnessed in line at the store is the finished product.
Try asking a 15 year old who thier two state senators are, who is the secretary of defense?
Heck even at the track meets the starting pistol has been replaced with a whistle! and no winners every one will be geting translucent ribbons.
No more valedictorian at many schools now, as this is unfair to kids with out the same opportunities plus it could harm self esteem. Great prep for the real world .
Time to fish.

[Marc Thorpe]

Tom F,well said.

Jim,its not jealousy,its envy.But in your case,I bet many kids have a reason to envy a father as dedicated as you.Takes muscle to do what you and your wife have done.Bringing up kids in a proper enviroment.

good topic,some definat ethics to be learned.
marc

[Mike Michalak]

Great reading guys!

I've got one in college and another as a junior in HS. They were (are) raised the way I was, with a thirst for knowledge. "The more you know, the further you'll go" were the words my dad lived by. And he did live it, as a retired businessman he wound up chaiman of the board of a large hospital complex. He wasn't a doctor or even had ties to the medical profession. He listened and learned. That's what I did and what my kids are doing.

I do believe all this begins at home. Having spent time on our local school board, I've seen the ups and downs of education from the inside. The system is only as good as the teachers, and the earlier posting to pay them more is a matter of what the market can bear. I know we can't afford to have 45-60K/year teachers in this district. But the main point to my .02 here is, the willingness to learn begins at home. These kids have to go to school wanting to learn, history and all.

The sacrifices made on D-Day and all the battles of war helped guarantee our freedoms today. It took the 9/11 tragedy to remind people of that, and that's too bad.

My wife is a school bus driver and you wouldn't believe the garbage she has to endure on a daily basis. The parents consistently say..."oh, my angel would never do that!" She loves to watch the expression on their faces when they're confronted with videotaped evidence! Their little "angel," when let out into the world does a Jeckle and Hyde. The language, actions and disrespect is ridiculous.

I'll never forget being chastised during a board meeting for suggesting that values be pushed at the grade school level. I was accused of being "religious" and "that sort of thing" has no business in school. These narrow-minded individuals are the ones then who believe teaching manners, obeying rules, making friends and respecting one's elders is nonsense. This is why our kids are like they are. They lack values. They are followers and not leaders. The peer pressure today is 100-times what it was when I was in school. Like others posting here, I agree that keeping a dialogue going with your kids is absolutely the key.

We have television...we have computers...but they're used as tools, not as toys. There are far too many things to divert a young mind's attention. As parents, it's up to us to steer them right, not daycare, not teachers.

[Phish Killer]

Those who forget the past are often forced to repeat it


P.K.

Let'em go & let'em grow

[pjonas]

Hi everyone

Read these boards every day, rarely post. This topic just got my attention I guess.

I feel that kids today will be just fine. I would guess that there has never been an older generation that didn't look at younger folks and decide that the world as we know it would come crashing down the minute the disrespectful and irresponsible members of this younger crowd started running the show. In fact, I'll bet that many of you that post on this board are members of a generation that was criticized in much the same way some of you are criticizing kids today. Are things different now than they were 5, 10, 0r 20 years ago? Of course. Is this a bad thing? In some cases, sure, in others, absolutely not. As far as individual kids go, there are good and bad ones just like in any other segment of society. As a person who deals with kids, teenagers specifically, on a frequent basis, I can say that more often than not, I am pleasantly surprised at the depth and breadth of knowledge and respect possessed by many kids today. These are people who, until September 11, had never lived through anything remotely comparable to WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, or whatever conflict or event you most relate to. To expect them to have the same perspective on world events, past or present, that most of you have is, in my opinion, asking a bit much. Add to this the fact that the group in question (young people)is biologically programmed to be a bit self-absorbed, and it would seem shocking to see anything other than indifference. These same kids, however, go off to school, the military, work, or whatever, and emerge not only with the nuts and bolts knowledge of people, places , and events that shaped the world they live in but a new perspective on these topics based on interacting with the world in a way most of us struggle to understand. I'd urge you not to let that lack of understanding be misconstrued as ignorance or a lack of respect on the part of today's young adults (tomorrow's leaders).

I believe that the vast majority of Americans, young and old, care on some level about a range of issues and ideas. If your experience indicates otherwise, I would submit that you may be looking in the wrong places for the great social thinkers of today (i.e the checkout line at Home Depot).

Just one guy's perspective. Good topic at any rate. Catch a pig.

Paul Jonas

[sponge]

Good post Paul...very good post; + you are right on in the fact that there are a large group of good kids out there + there are many that will gain wisdom w/ age...BUT...having talked w/ + to many teachers recently, they state the fact that more + more children are lacking in respect + desire in the classroom these days, + that when the parents are contacted, they seem to be too absorbed in their own thing. In fact some have told the schools that it is their job to control the students. I grew up in the Woodstock generation + we were definitely labeled...in fact it took me YEARS before I could count to 10! But I do sense a level of frustration + stress in kids today that wasn't there previously...maybe because life is much more fast paced now, seems they get bored easier + have too much thrown at them each day...not really sure! But I'm w/ you in the fact that they are our future + we need to do what we can to make sure they are given a basic sense of discipline, respect + self confidence. After yrs of surfing, skateboarding + living in a veggie state, I survived(to a degree), so there is always hope!!! ;)

[Jed]

I hate to be negative but I've seen MANY younger people who don't know anything about history or hardly anything else... All they seem to care about is sex, money, music and violence. I really believe our society is starting to crumble and if things contiue as they are this country is going to fall within the next 20 or so years, just like the Roman Empire did. These people grow up into selfish ***holes, then they have kids and those kids end up even more messed up than the parents, it really pathetic.

Anyway, that's my two cents, sorry if I offended anyone.

Jed

[RoyC]

Hey, Jed, don't you think that the "many" bad kids that you see might actually be the "few", but they are just more noticeable? I know lots of great kids, but they generally just don't stand out as much, especially in public.

Roy

[Da Bears]

Jed-

My opinion on WHY kids are like that today is due to the parents! There are too many parents that don't discipline their kids. Nowadays, if a kid gets 'spanked,' it is abuse. When I did something bad as a kid, I got a couple cracks of the leather belt on my butt! A few times of getting that, and you can bet that I wasn't gonna make the same mistake! Firt time I swore, my mom washed my mouth out with soap! Do you see parents do that today? No way! That would probably be considered abuse as well! I am amazed at how some kids act, and it all stems back to the parents!

[Jed]

NO, all the values are lost by these kids. Part of it is the parent's fault (obviously) but most of it is from the culture... I mean just listen to all the rap, hiphop, etc. Almost all of it deals with violence, sex, drugs, money... There was actually a rapper who was going to come out with a new CD, and on the cover was a picture of this crazy looking rapper with the twin towers blowing up behind him!!!! And this was before Sept. 11!!!! He had to change the cover on his CD. But it just goes to show that these kids are listening and idolizing pure criminals, that's all they are but these kids listen to the them over and over and pretty soon nothing shocks them and they become selfish, etc. All these rappers and stuff don't give a ##### about this country, all they want to do is exploit the country for their own selfish needs. Now, I'm not saying all the music is responsible either, it's part of the problem, just like all the sh*t on T.V. I hate to say this, but all this corruption started in the 60's with all the loose values, drugs, sex, etc. Every decade after that just got worse and worse... It will contiue to get worse if we don't stop it. Look what happened to the Roman Empire, they destroyed themselves with all the loose values.

Anyhow, again I'm sorry if I offended anybody, but that's how I feel, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything.

Jed

[Jim McCullough]

Jed,

I don't want to turn this Biblical, but I agree with a lot of what you said. I have debated this very topic with a lot of my friends. If you look at almost every great society, whether from the Bible or from history books, they follow a similar pattern. Not every one, but enough to raise eyebrows. They start out with simple people who are willing to put their life on the line to further their society. Most accomplish this by violence. Some justified, some not. They then enjoy a long period of rule. The people who fought for things die off. The young who inherited the prosperity, who don't remember what it was to fight and work for it, get fat and comfortable. They then get bored and start to indulge in more and more immoral acts. Pretty soon, they lose any sense of the drive that their forefathers had, and are ripe to be conquered, or destroyed, depending on your beliefs. Are we heading that way? As PJonas pointed out, every generation has been frightened of the following one. Sure that they will ruin everything. Perhaps this is all that is happening to me as I get older. I can't help to think though that we are heading for tough times in the future. It may take 100 years, it may take 1000 years, but our time will come when we have no one who is willing to fight for freedom. Generations who used to wonder about immorality, or what was going on in the big city, have been replaced by a generation that is only a click on the remote or mouse away from it. To think that this isn't having an effect on children at a younger age, and having bad consequences, is rather naive in my opinion.

[Da Bears]

i kinda agree, Jim, that there is a definite snowballing effect from generation to generation. As far as Jed's comment that it is all on the kids, I don't buy into that. If an 8 year old wants to buy a rap album with explicit lyrics, and the parent lets them, then it is the parent's fault-not the child's! And if kids are watching violent stuff on TV, it is the parent's responsibility to supervise what they watch!

[Sponge]

Some very good points Jim...the Bible IS a history book in a sense, + if carefully read + taken in context shares the points made in some of these posts. Jed is right; if some changes aren't made in all areas, then the path leads downhill. The technology, wealth + materials available of all types are greater now than ever before + my personal belief is that when then the 10 Commandments were removed from schools + public areas, prayer was taken from schools, kids were allowed to wear whatever they want to school EXCEPT clothing that portrayed christian themes + excuses for any + everything became the norm, then the slide began. In all periods of history this has occured but w/ the world population expanding it seems all the more apparent. Peeps of all types are seeking solutions but as of yet have been able to come up w/ a cure-all, + my personal view is that though we all want things to get better, like Jim + Jed mentioned, deterioration is in the future. I won't turn this into a theological debate, but I personally think the Bible has the answers...the future is exposed, the message of hope is revealed + from cover to cover it describes the problems + struggles we still face today. I didn't create myself, I don't understand myself; yet I know it won't end when I slip away from this we call home now! All I can do is try to make the little space I take up in the world better....as bad as it seems sometimes we really do have live in one great country! :)

[Tim]

Gimme a break. Some of you guys are whacked. There are plenty of good kids out there today and there will be in the generations to come. I have 4 kids that range from the age of 16-22. Two are in college and two in high school and they have a great bunch of friends. I am also involved in youth sports in our community and I would say that 90-95% of the kids that I come in contact with are well on the way to being productive citizens. The other few have issues with their family life that hinders them. Instead of basing your opinion on 2 people at Home Depot why don't you get out in your community and get in touch with the people that are the backbone of this county. Spend a little less time on the message boards too.
Tim
PS- if all else fails,blame it on rap.

[Da Bears]

Well said Tim!

[Jim McCullough]

Tim,

First off, I do get involved with the community, so save that for someone else. Second, it wasn't my point that EVERY kid out there is bad. I know tons of kids who are great. As most people do, I choose to hang out with people who are like myself. My family and friends are for the most part, excellent examples for their kids, and their kids reflect that. A lot of the people I meet in the Community have great kids. My point was not to bash all kids or parents, not to make it sound like I look for societal examples at Home Depot, but to get other people's opinions about trends I feel are showing up more and more. If your point is valid, you shouldn't have to call the people you are in a discussion with, "whacked" to get it across.

Mike,
I agree wholeheartedly with you. It is the parents and not the kids.

Rik,
The more I get to know about you, the more alike we seem.

This is a great discussion guys. The board gets slow this time of the year, so I don't mind a few off topic things showing up. I know that this is a topic that brings out a lot of emotion, but let's try and keep things civil.

[johnb]

A very interesting conversation indeed. At age 45 I can say that I have seen/been exposed to a variety of instances where the "Younger Generation" seemingly just doesn't get it. At least from where I'm looking back from. No manners, no sense of history, all the ME, none of the WE, and on and on. Heck, some of them can't even give change without a computer or tell time without a digital watch.

At the same time I know personally that there are quite a few really good kids out there who DO have great ethics, care about others, value their families and friends, and always try to do "the right thing". So what can be done???

All that any of us can do is try to set an example. Be kind, be courteous, be friendly, be willing to explain and encourage when you can without sounding holier than thou.

If we want things to change, all we can do is look to ourselves.

IMHO,
johnb

[Eric]

When I'm driving on the road I am the typical american.... gotta get there in a hurry mode.... two people I slow down for AND RESPECT... Veterans and Handicapped....


>So I'm in line tonight at Home Depot. I had to pick up some
>supplies to lay linoleum with. The kid in line ahead of me
>looks to be about 18. The cashier looked like she was
>around 28. The kid was writing a check and asked her what
>date it was. I chimed in that it was June 6th, the
>anniversary of D-day. They both looked at me like I was
>from another friekin' planet. Then he says, "What's D-day?"
> She looks at me with a quizzical look on her face like she
>wants to know what it is too. I told them that they better
>go back and look in their history books as it is one of the
>most important days in history. He shrugs his shoulders and
>she says, "I hate history." I hate history. I just don't
>get it. It's not like I am in line for my AARP card. I am
>35 years old. Is this really what we are producing these
>days?

[Eric from Harrisburg, PA]

> I have no children [I'm 38] but have deep respect for your teachings!


I won't get rolling on this one other than to say....the
>whole system is heading the wrong direction to a
>degree...having listened to teachers from across the country
>I get the idea that it starts at home...so many 2 income
>families...so little time.
>
> As for my son who just turned 6 2 weeks ago, he WILL be
>taught the following.....
>-To say yes/no sir/mam to ALL people regardless
>-To extend a firm handshake
>-To respect the rights + property of others
>-To defend/protect those who are bullied
>-To be a friend to those that are "different"
>-To give him a good spiritual foundation
>-To do his best in school/choices he makes afterwards
>-To teach him a good work ethic; no constant handouts
>-----all I can do as a Dad is try...+ try I will...I
>have/will make mistakes but my son will be schooled the old
>fashioned way. I wasn't the brightest crayon in the box +
>learned the hard way. The time we give to our kids will reap
>rewards later! Some of Hulberts hopefully will share their
>views on the school system up there....

[Sponge]

Tim, I also am active w/in my community + congratulate you on raising 4 that are in good shape...you truly are fortunate! It's the ones that have non caring parents + think they aren't cared for that really need our help. I made MANY mistakes growing up + was fortunate enough to have some peeps show an interest in me...I now work w/ a youth group + listen to what they have to say, + there are a lot of kids that wonder what is up + are worried about the future. There are also a lot of kids out there that think that all there is to life is finding the next thrill; these kids have nice homes, cars, plenty of $$$ from Mom/Dad + they have little respect for anyone not of their "rank + file". All of them need to be listened to + to be shown a genuine interest in. I'm also grateful that I can do a variety of things + still have time for these boards; thanks for finding the time to post your view.
*Jim, thanks to you for taking the time to moderate these boards + for keeping things civil...we are3 much alike! Rik

[Sponge]

I'd also like to add the fact that as a vet myself, I think D-DAY + it's importance is high priority...and that was the main point of the original post>>>>>>

[Da Bears]

Eric-I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for vets, and also people that are currently in the military.

As far as slowing down on the road, I also slow down when a hot blonde is in view!

[Jed]

I wasn't trying to say ALL kids are bad, or every kid that listens to rap is selfish and corrupted... I know we all have personal experiences with good kids we know and bad ones... But if you did reasearch in this area (like I did) you'll see that the majority of kids in this country are corrupted (big time) and are only concerned with their own selfish needs... Like I already mentioned, the parents have no idea how to raise kids and are also messed up and corrupted, the family unit has really gone sour... Parents from the 60's, 70's and 80's grew up with loose values and had bad childhood's themselves, then they try to raise a kid and usually just give up or don't care. Can you imagine the type of children that these kids of today are going to raise??? It's already happening... Most of the fathers don't even stick around and the mother is usually too messed up to raise a child properly.
What really upset me recently was the fact that MOST of the kids today don't want to fight for the country, they feel the country owes them something because they are so selfish... What if the kids from WW2 felt that way???? It makes me sick!!! Another thing that makes me sick is the fact that these kids and adults too were taking advantage of the whole 9-11 tragedy. They were exploiting it for their own needs, they don't care about this country or the poor people that died... They have NO conscious or morals. Do you think they would have done those things after Pearl Harbor???? No way, if someone did those things back then they would probably be run out of the country or shot.
So, I think this country is going to crumble within the next 20 years or maybe even sooner, watch and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's not just the kids but the way are whole society keeps getting worse and worse, even most of our leaders have been corrupted.
Again, not trying to pick a fight or anything, that's just what I've studied over the years... I'm no saint either, I've also been part of the problem, but now I'm able to see the big picture. I know all about being corrupted, I grew up in the late 60's when people started loosing their values.

Jed

[RoyC]

Jed,

When you say "most" kids and parents since the 60's are "bad", do you really mean more than half? If so, how do you define "bad" and where do you get your numbers?

As for the public's response to 9/11, there were so many volunteers coming to New York immediately afterwards that they had to turn people away. There was so much money donated to the disaster relief efforts that they are still trying to figure out what to do with it all. I don't think all of these "good" people came from the WWII era.

Yea, there were a lot of people who took advantage of 9/11 for their own gain, but I still think that the percentages were quite small. Remember, there are 260 million people in the U.S. If most of them truly were bad, we would be in much worse shape than we are now.

Roy

[Jim McCullough]

Jed,

I have to say that I don't agree with the picture you are describing. I think that is the way we are heading, but I still think there is plenty of time to change. It will take some time before our political structure is weakened enough to make us fall. We have more safeguards built into our system than any other great society in history. While some of them are being slowly eroded, I am hopeful that people will wake up long before the structure falls. The Twin Towers tragedy, stepped up that process. People are pointing fingers and asking why no one knew what was going to happen. Where was the CIA? Where was the FBI? Well, after some digging, it has been found that the last administration cut considerable funds to the CIA and completely tied their hands as far as covert ops go. To get the advance info that is needed to prevent these types of tragedies, you need people in the field, doing the dirty work that would never pass public scrutiny. They need to have contacts in these countries. The only way to get contacts is to spend the time and money that is needed to construct that type of web. There has recently been appropriated a huge chunk of money to do this. There is also a lot more sharing of info going on. I have a lot of hope for the future.

[RoyC]

We all have hope for the future, that's we keep releasing muskies to grow bigger!

Roy

[BJ]

I've read most of the posts on this thread and have to agree with most of them. However I think that PART of the problem can be laid with our current society and big brother(government). Quite a few spoke of discipline for the younger generation. You have to be very careful how you try to discipline your kids from a legal aspect. I had a friend that went to a beer bust to get his sixteen year old daughter from after he found out that she was there. The daughter refused to go with him (its close to midnight)so he grabbed her by the arm in an attempt to take her home. She called the cops and filed a complaint against her father and he was the one that spent the night in jail, not the daughter for underage drinking...##### she didn't get anything. In some cases I think that we have gone overboard with equal rights and a couple of other areas. I'm sixty plus and some of the stuff that happens today would have never been thought of by kids of my genteration. I guess that's the price we pay for technology, good or bad we will have to adapt or it will be a very frustrating life that we will live as I don't think we have much of a chance of living in a disciplined world when the Government takes the responsibility away from parents and teachers.
Just my views perhaps I am incorrect in my thinking also I did not intend to offend anyone.

Thanks BJ

[MuskieJ]

I think part of the problem is that our schools are more interested in teaching the history of western civilization, "which there is nothing wrong with". And spend very little time teaching our own contries history. Ask a kid about the romans and they will more than likely have the answer. but you ask them simple questions about the history of our country, and they are lost, there are certian dates that should never be forgotten. Back to the D-Day thing on the radio that morning they asked the same question and could you belive that it took almost 20 callers before someone got it right. Granted im only 25 but there are a lot of people older than me who are just as stupid as the so called "kids" I think that learning history is so very important in our society, and the answer you get is who cares about history, Well sorry but that wont cut it. Dont every forget all the men and women who died to keep this country free and all the people who lived to make this country free, and the reason you get taught history is so that you dont let it happen again. I thinks somwhere there is a quote that says."People learn from there mistakes, Smart people learn from others" Well if we dont care about history or what other people are teaching us well the let the country go to ##### and let history repeat its self.

Sorry Just venting on how stupid some people in the world are.

Jim

Good topic Jim

[Jed]

Hi again... I really don't know if change is possible. People have been too spoiled and conditioned to the way our society has become that they don't know any other way of life. And like was mentioned the lack of intelligence in our history, morals and just plain sense has a lot to do with it... Most (not all) kids today have no idea what sacrifice is. That is one of the reason's that there is such low enlistment in the military now days, the lowest it's ever been... Even lower than when the Vietnam war was going on... It ticks me off that these kids take advantage of everthing this country has to offer, but are not willing to fight for it or even stick up for it, they just don't care or understand...
I really hope change is possible, but it's going to have to be a radical change and I don't think most people know how to change, they are just too far gone. We might have to have something very, very bad to happen before they see the big picture and nobody wants that, including me. Who knows, maybe armageddon is going to happen in the years to come. I don't mean to be a Bible thumper, but if you look at some of the things Jesus tells us about the last days, they pretty much descibe how things are now... makes ya think.

Anyway, Can't worry about something that you can't change.

Jed

[RoyC]

Jed,

With a volunteer army, I don't think that we should expect enlistees to "sacrifice" in order to serve their country. In my opinion, we need to pay what the market will bear in order to get and keep the qualified people that we need in the military. We taxpayers need to sacrifice (pay more taxes) to make this happen.

Roy

[Da Bears]

There always have, and always will be bad kids in our society. There will ALWAYS be tons of good people in our society as well. If nobody cares about our country and wants to defend it, WHY are the enrollments for all of the military schools way up? CNN just had an article talking about how a lot of high schoolers are going to Military academies instead of College due to the Sept. 11 attacks!

Hmmm..seems like there ARE lots of younger kids/adults that DO care about our country!

Mike

[Sponge]

Mike, the enrollment is up in military schools as they say to a degree...we have at least 4 of them here in Va. BUT... after the Sept. 11th attack the enlistment rate in our armed forces is basically the same as it was before the attack, although that is really no reflection on the mindset of young people today. I do think w/ a voluntary system of enlistment there is more sacrifice involved; were there a draft, then the forces would contain a much larger number of youth that chose NOT to join previously for whatever reason. I know personally that to volunteer, one gives up much to serve in all manners of life + may experience the ultimate sacrifice in doing so. I was in 2 different times as a "trigger puller" + even those that didn't want to be there most often pulled their weight. I think as long as we are fighting for the right reasons, young peeps will come through...lets hope it doesn't come to that scenario again. a soldier from the 101st ABN said it best awhile back to the peeps back home..."We're here because we want to be...just support us + let us do what needs to be done".

[get smart!]

for a #1 selling scholar's take on this topic read:

"Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline"

-Robert Bork

I'm certain that Jeb and Sponge will be able to appreciate this one.

[pjonas]

Jed,

While I can appreciate your frustration at certain aspects of our society that don't measure up to the standards set forth by previous generations, I'm amazed by the hostility you seem to have towards today's kids on an extremely generalized level.

"Kids today have NO morals....the mothers are USUALLY too messed up to raise a child properly".

Do you really believe that the majority of American kids have NO morals or the majority of American mothers are unfit to raise their children? You sound like a guy who loves America, but to steal a line from the movie "The American President", you don't seem to like a large group of Americans. At some point, does your dislike of most young people, single moms, rappers and others translate into a dislike of America in general? I don't mean to be accusatory in tone, so please don't interpret my question that way. It just seems to me that you can't have it both ways. Either you love America, warts and all, and do your best within the constraints of an admittedly flawed system to make things better, or you dislike the institution at its core and reject its merits on the same general basis. I'm not saying that you have to like everything about our country, but to quote President Bush, "If you're not for us, you're against us." Based on what I've seen of your thoughts, I'm not sure which side of the fence I'd put you on.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but it really bothers me that a group of individuals as traditionally patriotic and pro-kid as the posters on this board have, in some cases, such a deep seated dislike for many of the people who will lead us in the coming years. I hope that this sentiment represents as small of a percentage of the population as I believe it does. If I'm wrong, then we may be in serious trouble. Not because of bad kids, but because of the indifference or malice of a group of people like Jed, solid and mature citizens, that have in the past led by example and cared the most.

[get smart!]

pjonas, you should read it too!

[Sponge]

GS...I got the book but haven't read much of it though I have heard good things about it! Thanks for reminding me...I'll get it off the bookshelf!

[Musk Rat]

People never change only the times change look at history when exactly was everything perfect. What do you think the ww2 generation thought about you hippies As long as there are people there will be people saying kids these days do you think your fathers or grandfathers where historians familiar with all this countries historical battles or were they just hard working americans whith a desire to survive in a country they love and at leaste got the jist of. Granted some people are just plain sad in what they know. That dosen`t change. As for what jed said from what I saw on discovery on easter the problems of christs time where not that different than what they are today. People are people and will never change until the end you speak of which dosen`t look that far off admittedly.

[elroy]

The earth used to be flat...Heck I won't start on that one. Anyhow, in any society from the start of time with few exceptions, there have been social class levels. The highest class levels seem to get the best education, with each class below recieving less. This tends to insure the current balance. On teaching salaries, they increase with the local of where you teach, supporting the thoughts prior to. An ignorant population allows for the the FL vote fraud, Clinton disrespecting the legal system, and the current war on drugs just to name a few atrosities of the current era. The electoral college was set up as an insurance policy to maintain control of the common man....elroy

[Ryan B.]

Democrats open the borders for more votes, Republicans get in bed with terrorists for oil wealth. The country is trending towards the third world. Once people came here and suffered the transition from immigrant to American citizen now, they demand the right to be taught in a foreign language, to make that language one of our languages. Many languages, in one land, like the building of the tower of Babel. Language binds a people under one flag.

We suffer the carnage of 9/11 and the Bush administration fire bombs the poorest of all Muslim nations. 15 OF THE 19 HIJACKERS WERE SAUDI! We receive NO COOPERATION from the Saudi's (remember the Gulf war). The Saudi media promotes the violent death of America amongst its people and they boycott our products. They refuse us valuable information and assistance in the 'War on Terrorism (Yeah right)'

The citizen does not know his left from right hand with all the bull being pushed out of DC and the leftist inclined media. We push the issue of negotiations between Israel and the Arabs - we sell out the Israelis and pave the highway with well lit signs that say:
'You're Barbarianism works. Please bring it here.' It'll come, unless we free the Israelis to do what they need to do and in doing so liberate ourselves to do what we need, must do, which is to say BLOT THEM OUT WHEREVER THEY HIDE.

We cannot suffer the patience of virtue and want it all right now. Time does not cast a moral judgement and all action is relative. A generation is what the generation does. Sad that many of us, who desire a more just and free society are becoming the disappointed minority.

[Sponge]

Well said Ryan B! Unfortunately we had to start in Afgahnistan though because that is where the majority of the problem was headquartered...ties do need to be cut w/ the Saudis + hopefully a way can be found. Also you are dead right about Israel- allow them to defend themselves for those who turn their faces against Israel will be in for a rude awakening at some point + time! Looking forward to more writing from you on fishing too!

[Jed]

I love America! But I'm also realistic and have done my research in this area. Yes, there are good and bad kids in our society and there always has been... and yes, each generation sees the other one as more corrupt, etc. and this has been going on for years. I know all about that stuff... But the facts are that the majority of kids today are very bad, corrupted people, unlike any that has come before in many disturbing ways as I have mentioned in my other posts... Most of them (NOT ALL) just don't care or understand what this country is about and are more concerned about their own needs (money, sex, music, violence, etc). And the kids are not the only ones who are corrupted, many adults are also very corrupted and selfish and that is also one of the problems as I have mentioned. Don't you guys read and watch the news??? They have taken several polls and found that the majority of kids could care less about what happends to this country and enlistment in the military has been the lowest ever because they just don't care. And the military needs a LOT of work, I mean it's crazy that the few last wars we had that more people were killed by friendly fire other than the enemy.... And today in the news they showed that teachers today are scared to teach because of the violent behavior. It said 56% of teachers have been violently attacted in class by students. Now, that is really bad and has never ever been that high. Kids don't even want to learn and think teachers are fools, how is that going to help society???

I know everybody has personal stories about good kids and people, but you're not looking at the big picture. I have lived in five different cities and could tell you all about personal stories I've had with bad kids.
Anyway, this is my last post, I don't want to get in arguments with people who don't understand.... Sorry if my opinions offended.
Watch the news.
Jed

[Da Bears]

Jed,

Your opinion is valued, and thanks for sharing it! I agree with some, and some I do not agree with! Yes, the school shootings are scary, and the safety in schools is a definite concern. My parents were both teachers for 35 years, and they haven't had any issues like you see on the news. A few tragic stories, and all of a sudden all kids are bad? I don't buy that! Sure, If I was a teacher, and I just heard about Columbine, I would say I am scared in a poll! Heck, I work in downtown Chicago, and walk by the post office and Sears Tower daily. Does the thought of Anthrax cross my mind??? Yep! Do I think about a plane hitting my building??? Yep! So I don't put my faith in every poll that is taken!

Jed, It seems like you think almost ALL kids are bad, and that just isn't true!

Here is a little something to chew on. If you don't like something, then try and CHANGE it. If you have a problem with kids, make it a point to help them! Ignoring a problem will not make it go away. Maybe you could be the positive influence that the bad kids you meet, NEED!

A quote from my favorite movie-The Natural. Roy Hobbs says "Sure, a FATHER makes all the difference!" That is SOOOO true!

Thanks for your post and opinions!

Jim M-has this thread set the record for posts????

Mike

[Jim McCullough]

Mike,

Not even close yet. You should see some of the threads The Big Swede started on the old board. Whew!

Ryan,

You hit the nail on the head with your Saudi Arabia thoughts. We are sleeping with the enemy. I was listening to Laura Igraham on the radio last night and she was talking about how an unknown terrorist "somehow" got through Saudi security at one of our air bases in SA and fired a surface to air missile at one of our planes. He missed, got scared, and buried his second missile right there. The Saudis investigated and found it. Our forces wanted the evidence so we could try and track down where it came from. Guess what? The Saudis just happened to destroy all of the evidence. We need to get out of there. Period.

[RoyC]

Jed,

I have no doubt that you deeply believe what you say, but I still think that you are mixing up facts with media hype. Where did you find the "fact" that the majority of kids are corrupt? You quoted a survey that says 53% of teachers have been attacked by students in school. I do not believe that 53% of all teachers in this country have been attacked. This number was probably from one of the worst schools in one of the worst neighborhoods. I doubt if the actual number overall for this country is greater than 1%.

You seem to get your "facts" from the news. I hate to say this, but I believe that you are a victim of the sensationalistic press in this country and need to be more careful in how you interpret these so called facts in the news.

As for your comments about the military, the fact that more soldiers are killed by friendly fire and accidents than by the enemy is a good thing! It means that we are extremely effective in fighting the enemy, not that we are incompetent. Being a soldier is a dangerous occupation during training as well as during combat. I am as proud of the performance of our military now as I have ever been.

Roy

[Jed]

It's 56% of all teachers say they have been attacked or threatened by the students and don't want to teach... Watch the news. Listen, I took seveal college classes last year where we studied all about our society, the people in it, how it's changed and where it's going... I watch and read the news everyday, I have looked up statistics and have read many books and magazines on the subject. You guys don't understand because you only look at what's around you and you're not seeing how our society has become so spoiled, selfish, violent, corrupted and ignorant over the decades... Yes, it's true every generation looks down at the one after it, but it's NEVER in the whole history of our country been as horrible as this one. Also, I'm not trying to blame the kids for our downward fall, it's the whole society that's falling apart. People don't even know how bad it is because they think it's normal and are so used to living the way they do, they have been conditioned. Also, our society is already overpopulated (big time) and it's getting worse. Think about it, kids shooting teachers, no respect for anyone, little education, horrible family values, etc, etc... How are these things going to help our society in the future???
Like I said, all this sh*t started in the 1960's and kept snowballing... I'm going to stop there because I feel like everyone is missing the point and just don't get it... I don't want to start a fight since these things have gone over everyone's heads... I know a lot of people from Europe and they look at our country as a big F*cking mess, they feel our country has gone totally crazy and can't understand all the corruption and violence. They have no respect for us anymore and pray their country never gets as bad as ours.
I love this country (always have) but I feel we have lost our way and will fall in about 20 years or so... I'm not returning to this thread.

There is no hope for a country gone corrupted.
Jed

[Tim,]

People from Europe say we are crazy? That's a good one.
Do they have Home Depot's over there?
Keep the Faith, boys, and God Bless America,no matter how messed up you think it might be. Surely it could use the help after reading some of these posts.:P

[Jim McCullough]

Calm down Jed. Trust me, there are a lot of intelligent people on this board. This stuff isn't "over their head". I told you that I agree with a lot of what you have said, so don't say that no one agrees with you and that you're taking your toys and leaving. I just don't agree with the timetable you have given. 20 years is a little too soon unless something Biblical happens. If that's the case, there is nothing we can do about it. There are a lot of good people left who are raising good kids. To say you are preaching to the choir with the people at this website would be an understatement. Is there a trend towards letting kids get away with more? Towards parents trying to be friends with their kids rather than parents? Towards kids being corrupted by the internet and explicit TV at an ever younger age? No doubt about it, but it will take longer than 20 years for that to be our demise. For your future reference, if your point holds water, you shouldn't have to use a bunch of expletives and call people names. That seems to be the way a lot of the younger generation you are deriding gets their points across. I'm certainly not perfect, and I have been known to throw the F'nheimer around, so take my advice for what it's worth.

Now, on to the Europe reference. If you are arguing for more conservative values, you better stop mentioning Europe as an example. The majority of countries over there are way more liberal in their values than us. That is a well known fact. Go to Amsterdam some time if you want to see liberal/libertarian values. It is also a well known fact that they are more than a little jealous of our wealth, technology, open spaces, and military might, so take their put downs with a grain of salt. They all too fast seem to forget that it was us who pulled their bacon out of the fire. If we had taken the isolationist view as far as they seem to these days, they would be saluting a swastika right now.

[BJ]

Jim,
An excellent response, I believe your views are quite valid and the people that post at this board are far from ignorant and many of us have been around for some time to witness what is happening in the US today. Much of it is not good, but not everything is messed up. I do agree with some of what Jed has said, especially that it has been going "south" since the 1960's. A lot happened in the country from 1960 to 1975 and we have not recovered from it yet. The legislation that was passed during this time frame is what I believe that we are dealing with today. The US Government gave eveyone the right to behave this way with little to worry about. Human nature will just about always push every situation to the limit, unfortunately there is not a limit set by the Gov., because of the need for equal rights.
I am not against equal rights, however their needs to be boundary's for co-existence. The greater the population increase the more the issue will increase, the two are proportional to one another.
Just a couple of my thoughts, do not mean to offend anyone.
Thank,

BJ

[Sponge]

Jim/BJ, well spoken! Not to mention the fact that much of Europe was rebuilt w/ American dollars. Australia is a country you don't hear much about yet they are an extremely good friend of the US. I guess as time goes on we'll find out who our friends really are if stuff keeps flaming up. Great Britain, Canada, Israel + a very few others can be counted on now to stand w/ us, especially since terrorism is the latest problem facing everyone. Will be interesting to see what happens as time goes on.

[get smart!]

Jim- just cause that kid at Home Depot was just an ignorant kid doesn't make you (with all of your expert friends and family) a little less ignorant (and self-righteous).

DO WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY OF SELF-SERVING EXPERTS?:
ex) Does anyone remember the day when there WASN'T a musky expert around every corner?
In the case of our great State- unless you're an expert (or working toward it) in the social-political realm (or at least be humble- ex. Sponge), think about keeping your fantasies to yourself until you learn otherwise. Either way, tell us what you DO know and not what you wish you had your grasp on.

I'd bet most of us'd agree that there are troubling problems- not certain this vehicle has the metal to put a finger on it although no one is stoppping anyone from learning the answers and sharing the facts.

As Sponge suggests, let's each mind our own business, take care of our own and be alert to separating fact from fiction. I'll add- if you want to talk or preach about it- BE FIT! "... ACCEPT the things I cannot change, COURAGE to change the things I can, and the WISDOM to know the difference..."