Looking for imput on big 4 strokes

[captjoe]

anyone had the opportunity to play with the new Honda or Yamaha 4 strokes yet? What's your imput

[Bobby]

One year old Lund Pro Sport (19') with a Honda 4 stroke 130hp. We use it for our work - it sees the lake a few times every day. We used it up to mid-November (we live in North Eastern Manitoba) and it started perfectly every day, first turn of the key. Quiet motor and NEVER had a problem yet. Great on gas. Moves the boat along nicely, 45-50mph, gets up to plane quick. Love it. No experience/knowledge about the Yamaha 4 strokes though.

[Bobby]

Sorry, meant to say early November, not mid-November!

[captjoe]

Thanks for the reply. I've been running a Honda 130 for 4 years now. I love it too. Am seriously thinking about a new boat - 21-21 Warrior. They tell me the 130 is big enough and of course the only other 4 strokes larger are the new Honda and Yamaha 200 & 225's.
Recent comments from a friend is that they are as noisy as the 200 - 225 2 strokes when running hard. Also commented on a high pitched whine. Just looking to see if anyone has had first hand personal experience

[Colin D Crawford]

When I was down at Ranger the first part of this month, I was in a 2300 Bay boat with a 225 Honda it was nice and quite in idle but put the hammer down it got pretty loud. The speed isn't impressive but it was pushing a 23' boat.
Colin

[River_eye]

This summer, my boss replaced his Merc 125 with a Merc 115 4-stroke. I was extremely impressed. Not quite as much get up and go, but it is just as fast. It actually revs higher than the 125. It sounds and runs like a compact car engine, very quiet and smooth.

[Al]

For some pretty interesting insight, take a look at the newest Bass and Walleye boats magazine. While Tom Mann Jr. wants you to think the 225 four strokes are the second coming, as told to him by his sponsor, I'd pay a lot more attention to others who mention how loud the 225 four strokes are at WOT. Fuel economy is dissappointing. Not what FIcht/ Optimax are. At WOT, the 225 four strokes use more gas than some traditionally asperated engines. 225 four strokes don't have the track record in the industry. I like what one man from Allison said...if Yam /Honda want performace guys to take them seriously on this 4 stroke stuff, they should use techology from Acura engines and not what they currently offer. The article is well worth the read.

[River_eye]

Now that's odd. Honda's S2000 car uses a 2000 cc 4 cylinder that produces 240 hp. You think they could somhow transfer this technology to the boat motors, although I'm sure it's more complicated than we think.

[Eric Olson]

Cptjoe,

Al was right on all counts. If you look at the actual horsepower on a dyno(hp test machine) for the 4 strks Yamaha for example. They are only generating about 215 hp. A lot of this has to do with the emissions standards for which they must comply.Increase the hp and run past the limit for emissions. Car engines have catalytic converters but marine engines can't( with the present technology) because of the heat needed to run the converter and ruduce the emissions.
As far as sound there is only about a 5 decible difference in the 2-4 stroke engine . (not Much,and thats a rough comparison across brands)

The question for everyone to think about is "what are the reasons you want a four stoke technology engine?"

Slow trolling? Both 2 and 4 stroke troll at about 600-700 rpms.
Injected engines will not load up plugs which will allow you to troll but... do you really want to troll with a $17,000 engine hours on end or get an electric ot gas kicker at $600-2500???

Range? The 4 Stroke Yamaha gets 2.7 mpg. yearly fuel expenses aren't really the issue, it's how far can I go with the fuel I have now.
Injected 2 strokes the Ficht Opti or HPDI are better by a sizeable amount. on a similar boat one should get around 3.2 - 3.6 at wide open throttle.

Power? See above hp point

Emissions? It may surprise you but 4 stroke marine engines are not the cleanest burning engines on the weater.
Check out the EPA web site for yourself and see what is really the case!!

Idle sound? 4 stroke all the way! This is the quietest thing going. In fact you might wear out your starter because you might think it's not running!!!

Oil? you don't want to have to keep adding oil all the time and it costs you everytime you fill? Well, you need to change oil on the 4's as well and yearly maintenance is about $435.

Acceleration?? Drive a boat with a 4 then with a 2. you will anwer the question for yourself.

Don't get me wrong here... 4 strokes have a place, but in the performance category higher hp try before you buy or at least answer the above questions for yourself. It will make a wise buying decision if you do!

Eric Olson
Tight Lines
Big Fish

[Purrfessor]

Decibels (dB) are measured on a logrithmic scale (log to base 10). Come on, I know you guys were awake in high school algebra. Weren't you?

A difference of 5 dBs would be a sound "loudness" difference of roughly 50%!

[Al]

The description used by the writer in the Bass and Walleye boats mag. to describe a 225 4 stroke at WOT was..."it sounded like it was ready to come apart." He went on to say it really sounded as if it were laboring, where as a set up 2 stroke is really hitting its stride in the upper limit. 2 strokes run best at higher speeds....which is what we all want (grin).

[PJM]

Al


When you are talking noise on a big four stroke the big thing here is valve noise. I went to buy a car one time the guy selling the car told me that the Accura motor made more noise then the Honda and I asked why. And he said that the Accura was running four valves per cylinder and the Honda was not. So I test drove them had he was right. The big thing here is the Accura had a higher performance motor and four valves per cylinder will give you that. Look at it this way take your Honda Accord and rev it up to 6000 rpm believe me you will hear the valves. If you look at the specs of a 130hp Honda I believe the block size is the same. Valve noise is the noise you here from all four strokes wide open and the Honda is running four valves per cylinder on that 225hp.

[Al]

Thanks, I already knew what the noise was from. Fact is it's still noise, it's still annoying and these big 4 strokers don't perform. I read the test of the 225 honda on the Javelin. It ran 52 mph. I drove one with a 225 Johnrude. It ran over 60 easily...and it didn't sound like it was going to pop....and it wasn't an annoying noise.

[david]

Al, not sure if you read the same article as me, but the one I saw they ran a 225 yamaha on a skeeter and then the 225 honda on the javelin. Is this the same article or magazine?

You seem to have a nack for finding just the negative items in the column? As far as I remember very high praises were in order for both of these large 4 strokes. Do yourself a favor and go to Yamahas website and under "performance bulletins" you will see similar boats with both two and four strke engines. Fuel economy is very good with the 4 strokes, better than any injected 2-stroke - or at least yamaha's version on injected, HPDI.

The 2050 Skeeter with the 225 carbed Yam and then with a 4 stroke 225 is an interesting comparison. Fuel efficiency, Noise, and top speed all went the 4 stroke, what do you think about that?

[Eric]

Dave,
Look closely, the 225 4 stroke can't out perform the Yammy V-max. The 4 stroke only generates about 215 hp and the V-max is pushing the upper limit of the 10% hp overage. I know of PWT anglers running the 4 stroke 225 and their speeds were off by as much as 5-7 mph compared to the V max on the same boat.

On the fuel effeciancy, compare to a HPDI rather than the V max for appropriate power and technology. A 4 stroke will beat every carbed engine out there, every time.(comparing equal hp's though)

As far as noise, the four strokes will perform better at the idle but the gap narrows as rpm's increase.

Fuel efficiancy at wide open throttle favors the 2 strokes by as much as .5 MPG better.

There are applications for the 4's but in the walleye boat market we want the most performance(throttle response, speed, fuel economy) that we can for the dollar. Right now, the best decision in my mind are the injected 2 strokes.

[PJM]

Eric

That was a well written post but with all the hype about four strokes people will believe what they want to believe even if you put the facts in front of them like you did. It's like diesel engines, people think the get 3 times the gas mileage as a gas engine. So diesel out boards are next.

[dave]

Sorry Eric but according to the Yamaha performance bulletins your wrong! Read for yourself before you keep rambling on, compare the same boat (skeeter 2050) with both the vmax 225 (ox66 fuel injected) to the four stroke 225. Fuel efficiency is 20% - 28% better with the four, noise is almost exactly the same at the high end(which is close to what you said), and performance is right there with the two stroke. Hey, don't take my word for it look for yourself.

[pa walleye]

Ask jim bell about the 225 four stroke he ran at the championship in bismark N.D. about half the gas consumtion of all the rest of the motors there. I talked to all the people who rode with him and all said it was one great motor. could not even hear it run. I'm running one this summer on a 205 triton. I'll let you know.

[dave]

That's impossible, just ask Al, PJM or Eric. Al says they are incredibly loud, Eric thinks they've got no power and PJM is just bitter because he bought the two stroke.

I'm being a little sarcastic but really why don't you wait till you run one before you start spouting off about how inferior they are!!!

[Eric]

Dave ,
I have run the 4's on an even one to one with the 2 stroke injected engines.
The difference is very clear, noise is close to that of the 2 stroke, power at hole shot is definetly less than a 2 stroke.

Speed at top end is less than a 2 stoke. Compare the 2050 with a 4 stroke at a speed of 56mph and then look at what the top end is with the V max (2 stroke carburated) on the exact same boat. Dave????...
Around 61mph.

At idle the dbl level is extremely quiet, I have no questions about that whatsoever!!! At speed however the dbl's are slightly lower with the 4 stroke. This is with either the Honda or the Yamaha 4 compared to the INJECTED 2 stroke engines.

What I'm trying to let people know is there are applications that 4's are appropriate for and those that are not.

I also know that perception is reality to the boat buying public. If one thinks that a 4 stroke is better in fuel economy because they "think "it will be then that is what is true to them. I hope that people research and buy whatever brand is good and has treated them well with the added information we've been bantering about.

Cheers to the educated buyer!

Eric

[dave]

I looked again the speed at wot for both motors is close in my estimation, 57.9mph for the four stroke and 60.5 for the two stroke. Eric, we're talking about 2.6mph difference, is that a big deal???

[pa walleye]

dave, I've seen them run so you figure it out. I'm not being sarcastic like you just stating what i've seen.

[Eric]

Dave, look at the fine print under "other" Both boats aren't running the same loads. Fuel load is a relatively important element in analyzing comparitive boat speed, hole shot, mpg, and other performance related elements.
The 2 stroke has 58 gal of fuel where the 4 stroke, only 32gal.

There are significant questions that I had in some of the numbers in other areas as well. Hole shot of 8.3 sec for the Skeeter and 3.2 sec for the Lund. That isn't an apples to apples comparison of actual hole shot. It really is a tough deal for the consumer when it comes time to make a $16000 engine purchase.

Dave, try one of the larger 4's for yourseslf then an injected 2 stroke of your choice. You'll be surprised what you find out, marketing is a powerful tool.

Tight Lines
Big Fish
Eric

[PJM]

Eric

I have been following your post with Dave and I had been though though the same scenario several weeks ago with the Skeeter and the 2025 Pro-V. I own both a two stroke and a four stroke and all I want to say to Dave is my two stroke is junk and my four stroke is great. I am loud and bitter for buying it and I am sorry. Eric, I like reading your posts and keep up the good work and I know Dave is going to jump all over this, so I give in and give up......

[NC]

A Honda 130 pushed the Pro Sport 19' 45-50MPH? My brother-in-law has a 130 on a Pro-V and it only goes 38-41MPH, but that is according to the speedo. Any idea why there is such a difference? I'm not arguing with you, but my brother-in-law is very upset about the performance he "thought" he was going to get.
Any insight would be appreciated.
NC
ncavanaugh992@msn.com

[Al]

Dave:
I'm not looking at only the negatives. They guy who drove the boats in those tests is the one who spoke up in the latest issue, saying he thought the noise was annoying. If he didn't like it, he certainly was bad at making one think otherwise.

The facts remain, the technolgy might exist for them to put out like a two stroke, but they haven't used it. An extra heavy 100 lbs. on the transom makes a whale of a difference. Last season, Band W boats mag did an article of weight displacement. They put sand bags in the front and back. More weight on the tale really hurts holeshot. If you run big water, that can really put a damper on control in swells.

100 extra pounds means we might be back to the jackplate problems that initially came with Optis. They were too heavy for the rating of Mercs scissor lift. Other's had problems too.

The four stroke big blocks aren't ready yet for performance boating, as I see it. I'm not alone. The bass guys singing their praises are those sponsored by Honda or Yam. Those with "no dog in the fight" such as the gent in BandW boats mag, and the Pres. of Allison are saying otherwise. One more thing they said....at higher end RPMS....the fuel economy of a 4 stroke 225 was less than EFIs.

I'm not just looking at the negs of a 4 stroke. I just don't enough real positives to accept all those negs.