Grant's State Record

[Thad Hinshaw]

I'm sure I don't know all the facts surrounding this fish, but I guess I don't understand why the state of Kentucky is making a highly respected muskie angler like Tony Grant jump through so many hoops.
The article in the latest issue of Musky Hunter said that Tony has taken at least 2 polygraph tests. One he passed the other was inconclusive. The article went on the say that Tony's fish may not be recognized as the new Kentucky state record.
In four simple words ... I DON'T GET IT.
Tony had 2 people with him at the time the fish was caught. It sounded like he drove all over the state trying to get this fish to a certified scale and the state's DNR is still going to thumb their nose at him.
This is terrible. Tony Grant should be treated better then this.

[tomyv]

I haven't seen the article, but if that's the case, it's ridiculous.

[Jim McCullough]

Thad,

I am interested in finding this out too. If there are problems with the catch, get it out in the open, otherwise be happy for Tony and leave the rest of the crap out of it.

[Tom B]

As I understand it, the question has always been the number of people that handled the rod. Tony has been very upfront about this and said that the client he was guiding had the rod, hooked the fish and handed Tony the rod, the client also held the rod while Tony netted the fish. I would imagine that that is the problem. For most records, if someone else even touches the rod, it disqualifies the angler. As an example, I have seen off-shore tournaments where an angler hooked a marlin, then someone from the boat put their hand on the rod as they were passing under it. That catch was disqualified, because someone other than the angler had their hand on the rod.

After reading the accounts of the catch (in Muskie and MHM), I am surprised that more people have not questioned the catch, as it would clearly not meet the guidelines for the Fishing Hall of Fame in Hayward or the American Sportfishing Assoc. in Florida.

Tom B

[Don Pfeiffer]

My understanding was tony fought the fish to the boat, the client had the net and he quick switched with her and netted it as she never netted a muskie befor and he did not want to lose the fish. I guess I understand that and regardless of the minor details its a ##### of a nice fish.
Don Pfeiffer

[Thad]

I also heard that the client held the rod while Tony did the netting.

I don't know the rules as far as state and world records go, but why would it matter if one person or two people took turns battling a fish? Name both people as the anglers, it's still just one fish.

[Steve Cady]

Man this stuff has got to stop. WAYYYY too much jealousy in this Sh*T.

If you read Tony's account of the fish which was confirmed by his clients HE hooked the fish and handed off the rod ONLY to net the fish due to his client being inexperienced.

I love how opinions and rumours become fact.

Here is Tony's story on the fish. This is from Tony's website. The link at the bottom of the page.


“The fish of only one cast”

The story of one muskie mans dream come true

By Tony Grant



September 21st will be a day that I will always remember, foggy, cool, and breezy on the water muskie fishing. My clients this memorable day were Jim and Terry Walters from Muskegon Mi which I had meet while doing a seminar at Michigan Musky Hunters Club banquet, they were very eager to learn about Cave Run Lake and it’s muskie fishing, the newlyweds were new to the sport and ready to go which always gets me fired up. I had been moving muskies and been told of muskies caught in the area called “The Flats” for several days, a very common spot for muskie anglers at this time of year. The previous day we had raised a large fish from this area, after reviewing my records comparing conditions I made the decision to go there and work the shallower weeds first till the sun got high. But as we drove up Beaver Creek I noticed wind pounding into a spot on the Licking River that I love to throw TopRaiders and Triklops under lowlight conditions during this time of year, so a quick decision and swift turn of the my Ranger put us on the spot. After 20 or so cast into that small bay I headed out to my original destination on the main lake. So then came lure decision time, a natural Deucetail had given me many good fish over the past few years and the water looked good for it on this day, yet several anglers had told me of black and copper success with bucktails in the previous days. With fog still hanging fairly low, I pulled from my Plano box a TopRaider for Terry and the natural Deucetail for Jim; we jumped in line with a number of anglers to drift the flat. Third cast up on the flats with the Deucetail and Jim has a four- footer or better just explode at boatside just before the first inside buoy on the Zilpo side. As our drift continued a few 100 yards I decided to get out my Lamiglas TI200 Titanium rod and loaded with Power Pro small diameter 80 lb line and tipped it with a black Grim Reaper 1 oz spinner with gold flake and double willow blades (Doug says that I am the only one that orders these baits with the double willows here locally) and throw the home run cast to the opposite side of the boat. Hoping of hooking a fish to hand off to Terry with the intent of encountering her first muskie, which I do a lot with first timers by covering lots of water with long casts. As my bait hit the water, before I made a turn of the handle, I felt a strong tug to my line, I set the hook and out came this monstrous fish completely out of the water. I had never seen a fish of this size ever completely leave the surface to give us an awesome tail walk, then a second later she did it again, what a sight. All thoughts of handing my lightweight rod off to a newcomer to the sport with this beast on the end were gone (not even thinking of a state record). Then came the reality of a pure adrenaline rush as she made a run right at me, my high speed Marado Icon reel came in handy here as I caught back up with her. At this point her mighty jaws came out of the water with a half dozen vicious headshakes, I waited for the lure to fly back at me but my Action Optics helped me see that the Grim Reaper had her hooked with text book style. But then she seemed to have given me all see could as she gently swam closer to the boat, that’s when a flash back of David Christain cursing for a month about his biggest fish ever having the lure pulled from it’s mouth by the net on a clients first net job and then swimming away haunted me. A quick decision had me grab the net myself but then realize that a one handed net job on a fish of this size would be dumb and the gratification of having Terry feel the power of the mighty muskie made the decision easier. So I instructed Terry to take the rod, keep the line tight and Terry lead the fish, feeling a couple of awesome tugs as I easy scooped her into my Frabill and she was mine. I quickly cut the hooks and brought her up for a photo, that’s when I felt the weight, I knew that I had never had a fish this heavy before. She didn’t look as long as she was I guess because of her girth. A few photos, measurement and she was in my Ranger’s livewell, I quickly girthed her in the livewell at 23.5 x 54.5. With my cell phone handy and without a calculator I called the most knowledgeable guy I know Steve Heiting at Musky Hunter, the formula had her at nearly 40 pounds. I gave her 15 minutes and let her go and she swam off fine for about 30 feet then bellied up. I retrieved her and again put her in the livewell with a little ice hoping to help revive her. We fished for 20 minutes or so and tried her again only to find her immediately rolling, once again she went back to the livewell. While in the livewell she wouldn’t hold herself up and after 10 minutes of forcing her from rolling I decided to put her back in the water, which would be the last time. After all the work this fat boy was wore out from lugging her up and down and hanging off the side of the boat holding her upright. Again she wouldn’t go and being from the south where the heat effects them so bad I knew from experience that she was done, I pulled her up for some more photos and measurements. Only to find that her girth was 25.5 not 23.5, Later a pictured taken while girthing her inside the livewell showed that the tape was not in the fat of the body. David Christain and my client did a quick head calculation and advised me to get her to certified scales. So back to the dock we went where I had left my digital scales from my trip to the PMTT at Minnetonka, WOW 46.8. 4 hours after her capture, I called the Dept. of Fish and Wildlife told them of the accounts of the fish and ask whom I the potential record should be credited too since she touched the rod while landing. They informed me that the person who cast, hooked and fought the fish would be credited with the fish. They then instructed me to Lew Korman, their area biologist in charge of the muskie-stocking program who told me to go to certified scales; this is when my excitement turned to frustration. After driving 25 miles making 5 stops and making 20 phone calls we finally found scales at Caudill Seed Co, miles outside of Morehead. By this time my beautiful fish had a sunken in belly and looked very scrawny as I hung her over my back as we walked through this large warehouse to the area of the scales. My wife Jessica said it look like the old picture you see with anglers carrying large muskies over their shoulder, Employees of the seed company determined her weight at 44.75 lbs and Mr. Korman inspected the fish, verified it’s weight, the scales themselves and gave me my signed certification to be sent to Frankfort. Why is it that the Muskie Capitol of the south has NO certified scales anywhere near the lake even at the fish hatchery seems thoughtless, I hope the tourism commission learns from this one and invest in a couple of sets to be placed at the two marinas so no one kills a potential record just to get it weighed. Because I don’t believe that this record will stand very long due to the amount of big fish seen and caught and released on the CAVE lately. Mr Korman also added that this fish was of the same stocking that Scott Flatts record fish was from back in 1989, he added that this fish was probably in its last years of life, yet I wish she could have lived to spawn again because she was truly a mighty muskie. Well this was just the beginning of a wonderful day as the reality of taking a record fish started setting in. In fact I woke up the next morning thinking I had dreamed that I caught the state record. I would like to thank first Jim and Terry Walters for their help and patients as the days event somewhat spoiled the remainder of the days fishing, also I would like to thank all of my sponsors that were very excited for me. Lastly I would like to give a special thank you to all of the friends, clients and people from the muskie industry that congratulated me, that feeling can’t be duplicated.








http://www.kymuskie.com/kentucky.htm

Congrats AGAIN on a great catch Tony!

[esox14]

I forgot where I read it but tony had checked and the person who fights the fish gets it under his or her name and that woudl be tony because he did fight the fish and just gave the rod over to the inexpereicned angler when it was time to net the fish. I don't understand why people would be trying to take this fish title away from him. He caught it fair and square. It's a heck alot easier to just be happy for the guy instead of making a bunch of work like this trying to argue to take away the record. Before you guys start spitting out stuff thats not true talk to tony himself or ask some of his close friends on the PMTT trail like Don or Steve here.

[innocent bystander]

Tom B, if Tony freely admits that his client hooked the fish and handed him the rod then that is clearly at variance with the story he wrote about it. Are you sure you have your facts straight?

[Tom B]

I needed to respond as I did not have the facts straight... I had posted just before I left to take the kids to softball and figured when I got back, I would read through the story again (I was going by memory.) In the story, Tony wrote of hooking a fish for the client and handing the rod off to them... that's the part that I misremembered.

Anyways, the point is moot. The fish is a Kentucky state record and is for the state of Kentucky to worry about. It is not a line-class or world record, so whether any of the current record governing bodies' conditions are met, it also does not matter.

It's a great fish and everyone involved should be proud annnnnd I don't think that anyone here is disputing that it's a great fish, just wondering why the state is creating all the hub bub, bub.

Tom B

[Tom B]

Hey all,

I just spoke with the folks at the Kentucky Fish and Wildlife Dept. I am waiting for a call back with either the official explanation or reason, but the information officer that I spoke with said that Tony's fish was never "verified." He would not say if that meant that it needed to be inspected by a fisheries person or what, but he did say that Tony's fish would not be recognized as a state record.

Huh.

Tom B

[55starfire]

wow... unbelievable (that this fish is clearly a record and will not be recognized because of meaningless details...)

so my million dollar question is- how many other record fish have been caught legitimately and not "officially recognized" because of insignificant details like "someone else touched the pole..."

this sounds like a topic for Larry Ramsell... is this discussed in his muskie compendium alot? (i need to read that...)

zach sanders

[Thad]

The story I got didn't have to do with anyone else handling the pole.

The word I got was that the weight of the old record and the weight of Tony's fish was very close. I guess the DNR said (after the fact that Tony ran this all over the country side jumping through hoops for the DNR) that Tony's fish was not weighed on an adequate scale.

This is crap! I wish there was something we could do to get behind Tony and help his cause.

[MuskieKid]

FYI: The size of the fish were:

Tony Grant: 54.5 x 25.5, 44.75 lbs.

Scott Flat: 53 x 26, 44.38 lbs.

So whose fish is really bigger? If you read the story and visit his site, it really does indicate that he did everything right and proved it with photographs at each step of the way except for one thing: the rod handling by more than one person. Based on his actions, it does appear that he himself MAY have realized there could be a problem with multiple rod handlings by more than one person.

Since it's not a line class record or world "kept record" (by weight)is this a problem? Why would be Kentucky's requirements be any less than those of either organization? Does Kentucky have written requirements somewhere or is it "a matter of opinion" by some DNR official? I checked the Kentucky DNR site and they do not mention rod handling at all and is much simpler than either the Hall's or IGFA requirements except Kentucky requires three "uninterested" witnesses! Here is what their site says: http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/pdf/recfish.pdf

It would not stand up as a record either with the Fishing Hall of Fame OR the IGFA whether it was Tony's fish or Terry's (his client for the day) because more than one person handled the rod. Their rules allow the fish to be netted by someone else, but not the rod. However, if Kentucky allows the multiple handlings of the fish, the record should stand. However (here's the monkey-wrench)- since it's not written down about rod-handling, it then becomes a matter of opinion by a DNR official. At that point, favoritism comes into play!

Check this out and you will see that Tony did everything right and proves it with photographs: http://www.geocities.com/toothycritters/kentucky.html


Here's some info. that may help any of you that may find themselves in the same situation; http://www.toothycritters.com/recordfish.html

[Steve Cady]

Hmmm.

Politics? NO WAY!

Nice fish Tony.

S-

[Tom B]

Other records that were disqualified include Louis Spray's. The IGFA does not recognize his fish because he shot it.

It's still a nice fish.

Tom B

[firstsixfeet]

I have not read any versions of this other than Tony's own. I have not seen any articles with quotes from the clients he was guiding or any of the witnesses anywhere along the line, both when the fish was initially hooked and landed or any point between capture and the official weighing.

Thad is there some reason that the DNR would be thumbing their nose at him? Tony Grant should be treated exactly like any other angler trying to establish a record catch. No better, no worse. I am sure that is what he himself would want. Guides should and probably do get scrutinized very closely when it comes to record applications. There has been, historically, a lot of funny stuff that has gone on with guide's fish and game captures. Two quick WI names that come to mind are Rose and Denninger. I have no reason to believe anything about Tony's fish is in that category, but a big fish, or trophy animal represents cash value in the guiding business. To award a record certification there should be a process that treats all information fairly and all peoples, including the previous record holder

There is a lot of second hand unverified information in this thread. The opinion is put forward that the record is not being verified for meaningless details. I would at least like to see some specific names listed as sources for the actions of the KY DNR. This stuff where "I spoke to the information officer" or the "DNR" is not very reliable stuff and once again becomes kind of second hand information. The idea of fishing partners and friends from the PMT being used as character bases is a real bad idea. If I ever wanted to verify any kind of record fish I would hope I was in the boat with a preacher I had never met before and got to the dock and met the game warden while the gills were still working, and drove directly to another town where no one knew me and were met at the scale by the state fisheries biologist and a federal judge and a weight certification expert. I would not want any friends within 10 miles of any type of verification process for a record fish. History has proven that course!

This fish was a great animal regardless of the outcome of record certification. It would probably be in Tony's best interest to have a fish that was the unverified state record, than to have a verified state record that was a basis for arguments into the future as to whether or not it should be recognized.

All this is food for thought. I will have to contemplate it thoroughly while I try and catch the 47 lb fish I have spotted in the waters of ........... ........ KY. :)

[Tom B]

Lee McClellan is the Fish and Game guy that I spoke to and Ted Crowell is the gentleman that I am waiting for a return call from. It was very easy to contact them, as their number is on the Kentucky Game and Fish website. According to Ted's voicemail, he is out of the office till next week, Lee, however had seen him in the office earlier and thought that I might luck out and he would answer his phone. I did leave a message and if I don't hear from him by Monday, I'll call him back.

So, Lee told me that Tony's fish would not be verified as a record, but would not comment officially or on the record as that is Ted's department. In the conversation that I had with Lee, I am inferring that 2 people handling the rod had nothing to do with it, but till I speak to Ted, it's all speculation.

Tom B

[Tom B]

Forgot to add... Lee McClellan fully expects that the current recognized record will be broke again soon (even if Tony's fish were recognized). He says that there seem to be alot of big fish in the system right now.

Tom B