MUSKY WANTED

[Denzil Brewer]

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse and fishing on Cave Run lake could only get better. Along comes local musky guide Gregg Thomas (a fine young man from a good family) with a new idea that would squeeze the last breath out of an already dying lake economy.

I don't think anyone should take Gregg serious but you never know with Fish and Wildlife catering to all those small special interest groups.

Here is a part of what Gregg posted on this web site earlier this week,I am writing to inform everyone that the state of Kentucky is trying to improve its musky fishing by increasing the size limit to 40" and one fish per day."

This thinking is a big part of the reason fishing license sales are down 3.2 million dollars in Kentucky this year.

I don't know just how far this small group of musky guides are willing to go in order to make a dolar. We already have a lake full of musky, get 2800 more 13" fish a year and now they say they need a 40" size limit.

Sounds to me like a greedy bunch. I think its about time the baby bottle and passifier are removed and fish and wildlife finally admit that after 28 years of stocking musky only in cave run lake that the more this small group gets the more they want.

If you could get all the musky fishermen in the world there still isn't enough to support the economy in the Cave Run area.

What about all the pan fish these musky would eat what about all the fishermen that would be happy with a small mess of fish.

With a 40" limit all the amature fishermen would stop fishing for musky, and the musky guide would release the ones they catch.

Water,water everywhere and not a fish a to eat.

Like I said earlier I remember Gregg as a fine young man but he must have fell out of the boat and bumped his head. I can't imagine anyone that thinks all the other fishermen should give up fishing so that the musky guide can make that 290 dollars a day.

What about the elderly or young people that catch that 39" musky. I don't think I would want to be the person that tells them that they have to release so that musky guides can get another guide fee.

Even the 30", two a day musky thing won't fly. Remember that less than 5% of the potential fishermen in this area fish for musky.

This must be the reason Gregg is on the internet trying to get out of state help.

Gregg don't forget when you go to the legislature to try and get this welfare for the musky guides that you mention that about all of your support is from out state and these people don't VOTE in Kentucky.

P.S. Snitch says hello Greg and that he enjoys looking at all those pictures of the musky you used to keep before you found out that there is money in musky fishing.

All comments are appreciated. Call before noon.


Denzil Brewer
Frenchburg Sporting Goods
(606)768-6968

This article will be ran this week in the Foothills Courier in Frenchburg,Kentucky. Thought you might want an early look at it.

[Trophymuskie]

Talk about having your head up your .... . I don't think you have any clues as to what a muskie eats as well as just how much money muskie fishermen bring to the economy.

An average pan fisherman may spend $50 on gear that will last him many years as well as $2 worth of worms every trip or so. An average muskie fisherman will spend a minimum of $50 a day on gas and gear as well as hundread on rods and reels and thousands on boats. I cannot remember the last time I ever saw a lodge advertising panfish to book more clients. In other words their is a lot of the local Motels and lodges that would hurt if there wasn't any muskies in KY versus panfish.

We have some of the best muskie fishing in the world up here and believe it or not I see a lot more guys fishing for bass, walleye and yes panfish so it probably is the same ratio as you guys down there. The other fishing is just as good as the muskie fishing. The only idiots I see complaining about the muskies eating all their fish are the same guys that when you ask to see their catch, you will find a livewell full of eight inch walleyes.

I believe it is time for you to look in the miror as to why your panfish populations are declining. You have to stop blaming others and do what is needed to try and better your favorite fish by doing something about it like the guys in the muskie comunity do. You can actualy learn a heck of a lot from guys like Gregg, Tony and Crash as they do more for the industry in a day then you ever will in a lifetime.

I can't believe how ignorant one can be, look into doing some reseach, telemetry studies, taging projects, stockings, creel surveys, change of regulations as well as anything you can imagine to better your panfish fisheries like all of us muskie fisherman do to improve ours. Muskies are not eating all your panfish, you for one should know by all the muskies you have been responsible for their killings. Look into the stomach contents and you maybe surprised to see very few panfish in there, muskies eat baitfish above all others.

Man I am planning a trip to the cave next spring, would you think I would ever drive the 10 to 12 hours for panfish? As well as I have a Cave run guide coming up here next week, you think he is coming up here for panfish?

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin
http://www.trophymuskiecharters.com

[Jim McCullough]

Denzil,

I take it that you are the one who posted to Greg's thread asking for signatures. It was anonymous, took a few shots, and was in the wrong place. That is why I deleted it. I said to myself that if you asked why, that I would tell you it wasn't the place for that, but if you wanted to start a separate thread, that would be okay. While you did take a cheap shot or two in the above thread, you gave your name, business name, and even gave your phone number. That goes a long way with me. This is an important issue in the Muskie World, whether Muskies hurt, improve, or just balance a fishery. Let's have a good discussion and keep it clean. This is after all, only going to come up more and more as we attempt to improve the Muskie fishery.

[Jim McCullough]

Richard,

You and I posted at the same time, and since mine came after yours, it's obvious you didn't see me ask for everyone to try and keep things civil. I know the kind of anger and us/them type of feelings these topics can bring up. You made some VERY good points. I would especially like to reiterate your point about out of state panfisherman coming down there. I doubt that it is very significant. On the other hand, the number of out of state Muskie fisherman who go there, is increasing every year. Especially during the Winter, which I would bet is the slow season for Kentucky tourism. The fact that a tackle store could benefit from this seems to me to be obvious. I would just ask that in future postings to this thread, you refrain from commenting on where the guys head has been exploring recently...;)

[fishkopp]

I think it's going to be up to the people of kentucky to decide whats right for there state. All we can do is inform the anglers of kentucky about the good things muskies have to offer. So when all the muskies are gone and the locals are still having a hard time catching panfish ,they can just blame another type of fish. How about those blue cats or even those carp ,they must be eating all the panfish eggs. It used to be the same way in New Jersey ,but its getting better day by day.Good luck to all you kentucky muskie hunters , and keep informing the people ,they will decide.

good hunting

Mike k.
good hunting

[reality please]

I would like to know how you calculated the state lost 3.2 million dollars because muskie fishermen quit buying licenses, then you say that only 5% of the fisherman are muskie fisherman -- @ 32.00/fisherman, that would mean 100,000 fisherman decided to not purchase a license, according to your math. I'm sure you're a fine young man from a good family, but let's keep in mind that muskie don't eat all the fish, just most of them. Hopefully, the few that are left, you can feed your family with. Remember that us out of statesmen can't vote, but we do fund your economy by fishing in your community. There goes another panfish!

[cave run local]

The 3.2 million dollar loss was reported by Tom Bennett,comissioner of fish and wildlife in Kentucky,in the latest Kentucky Afield,the magazine put out by fish and wildlife. They are trying to figure out how to get people to come back to fishing. Maybe you need to call him if you don't like the math. I'll eat my underwear if more than 5% of the local fishermen are avid musky fishermen. I fail to see how a 40 inch size limit will help our economy. The musky population is booming in Cave Run and the guide buisness is doing well. There are more and more folks from up north coming down to fish all the time and this has really come about in the last 8 to 10 years. Yet with all of these positive things happening I can personally tell you of five locally owned,right around the lake,bait shops that gave gone out of buisness. A 40 inch size limit wont effect you but all it will do is drive away a few more local people who musky fishermen and like to eat musky which is legal.

[cave run local]

I'm just so glad you and your buddies have saved the economy of Kentucky. I never realized that us pan fishermen never had to pay anything for our boats. I think I will call the bank and tell them to refund my money for my truck and my boat. I don't see how a few out of state musky fishermen do more for the economy than all the local anglers. Sir, do all of you out of state guys buy your boats in Ky. Do you buy your trucks in Ky. Do you wait until you get down here to buy all of your rod and reels and all of your lures. My bass boat cost the same as a lot of musky boats and it was bought and paid for in Ky. I will average spending 25-30 dollars everytime I go crappie or bluegill fishing. My boat runs on the same gas as your big high priced economy saving musky rig. I will spend at least 10 dollars on bait everytime I go. The fishermen in Ky spend more money a year than you ever will down here. The local fishermens views and opinions should be listened to before anyone from out of states are. As far as your Ky musky guide coming up there next week if he is going to fish for pan fish he would have to go somewhere besides here. The only things I find in musky stomaches are bluegill,crappie,bass, and yes shad. Don't get me wrong I am glad we have a good musky fishery and I am glad you like it.

[ToddM]

I would be willing to bet that the musky are by no means to blame for the 3.2 million dollars lost in license sales revenue. I would be willing to bet that the musky have not had a major imapct on any fish population in cave run lake. I bet if we dug deeper into this issue the truth would come forth for whatever the non-musky angler is blaming whatever the bad catches on. It's always been the case, cave run is no different. Your thinking is not of the right direction and Gregg Thomas is trying to improve his business cetainly but that's not his only intention for supporting what he does.

Maybe the non-musky anglers should practice a little conservation themselves. We have more people in this world and more fisherman to boot. More fish being caught and harvested. It all takes it's toll. If the regulations do not tighten, the fishing suffers and so will the fishing economy. Perhaps they need to propose tighter regs on bass and panfish too.

[Muskie Killer]

>Here is a part of what Gregg posted on this web site earlier
>this week,I am writing to inform everyone that the state of
>Kentucky is trying to improve its musky fishing by
>increasing the size limit to 40" and one fish per day."

If the state of Kentucky is serious about improving their Musky fishing this is a key element. If you take the Ontario, Canada model

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR/musk2002/muskytoolkit.pdf

many lakes and rivers are 36" to 52" for a keeper. Fish this size have 'generally speaking" spawned several times.

Another Article:

http://www.milwaukee-muskies-inc.org/Speakers_Adobe/Russ_Warye_search_for_big_fish.pdf

Gets into the minimum size of Muskies:

36" Illinois
42" Michigan
Upper 40's in Minnesota

I personally do not see the point in keeping a Musky unless you are going to mount it. A Musky to be mountable is 55" or better, in Ontario!! If it is not over 40 lbs, then why even consider it ? If you want to eat fish, your better off buying trout or salmon at the grocers, Musky meat is 'yuk'! Take a picture and throw them back !

>I don't know just how far this small group of musky guides
>are willing to go in order to make a dolar. We already
>have a lake full of musky, get 2800 more 13" fish a year and
>now they say they need a 40" size limit.

It depends on your areas, the local DNR will have the data based on lake size and food availability. 40" Musky are at the low end of big Musky. 50+" Musky are the one's worth talking about! They won't grow that big if people keep taking the smaller one's out!

>If you could get all the musky fishermen in the world there
>still isn't enough to support the economy in the Cave Run
>area.

If there is only opportunity to catch Muskies under 30", people will come to Canada for a shot at a big one, not your area!

>What about all the pan fish these musky would eat what about
>all the fishermen that would be happy with a small mess of
>fish.

Panfish ? Unlikely they would have a serious decline, Muskies tend to focus on bait fish, like Cisco's, White fish and Shad.

>With a 40" limit all the amature fishermen would stop
>fishing for musky, and the musky guide would release the
>ones they catch.

Incorrect, people are fishing for Muskies to catch the 'big one' the increased opportunity for a large Musky means more Musky Hunters. People will not travel 100's of miles to catch small Muskies!

>Water,water everywhere and not a fish a to eat.

99% of serious Musky Hunters release their catch. They may only keep one or two trophies in 30 years of fishing.

>Like I said earlier I remember Gregg as a fine young man but
>he must have fell out of the boat and bumped his head. I
>can't imagine anyone that thinks all the other fishermen
>should give up fishing so that the musky guide can make that
>290 dollars a day.

Not sure what you are stating. You feel that the Muskies will take over the water table ? I live 5 minutes from the Rideau River, 30 minutes from the Ottawa River and 1.5 hours from the St. Lawrence, they all have Musky size limits and this is a non-issue.

>Even the 30", two a day musky thing won't fly. Remember
>that less than 5% of the potential fishermen in this area
>fish for musky.

There will be even less if they allow that type of abuse of the Musky Fishery.

>All comments are appreciated. Call before noon.

If you are a Sporting Goods store owner, you may be interested to know that Musky fishing is one of the most expensive, requiring costly reels, rods, lines and lures. It is not like catching panfish off a dock or under a bridge, todays Musky Hunter's have expensive boats with all the latest technology, such as a depth finder, trolling motor etc.. They will have to buy it somewhere!

I am sensing you have something personal against this guide named Gregg and the Musky fishery as a whole. Fascinating to watch it unfold on the Internet, but the arguments on the Nay to Musky fishing do not add-up!

Regards,

MK

>
>
> Denzil Brewer
> Frenchburg
>Sporting Goods
> (606)768-6968
>
>This article will be ran this week in the Foothills Courier
>in Frenchburg,Kentucky. Thought you might want an early
>look at it.

[Phishin]

Denzil Brewer,
We know that musky guys in Kentucky (for the most part) don't spend the same amount of money on equipment that some of the most hard-core dudes from MN, WI, and Illinois do. These out-of-staters buy most of their stuff at home. But, they do bring a lot of money into the state and they probably don't spend it at your place because you're anti-musky.

I just don't understand why you would be against a 40" size limit. It's not going to effect your panfishing. A size limit increase for musky is not going to cause fewer bluegiller's to buy licenses.

Basically, I know you're jealous that the state is spending a considerable amount of money on muskies, which is not directly putting lots of money in your wallet. You cannot deny this.

Peace Out.
Steve Hulbert

[Trophymuskie]

I never said that the out of state fishermen were the saviors of your economy. I am sure they help but the 5% of KY fishermen that are muskie fishermen spend more then 20% to 25% of pan fishermen. Now if you spend 30+K on a bass boat to fish for bluegills and crappy I believe you have a much bigger problem then muskies eating all your panfish.

For your information your $10 of bait won't even buy 1 simple muskie lure, be lucky to get 3 leaders for that amount. The average KY muskie fishermen probably has 100 muskie baits a $15 a peace and 3 rod and reels at well over $500. Man just our hook cuters are $40, nets over $100 and so on. Also the out of states guys do have to buy gas, oil, food, lodging, lures, repairs to boat and truck and more in KY while they are there to fish, most average over $1000 in expenses during their week stay. Don't forget some bring their families and do some shopping as well as emergencies. Muskie fishermen are probably averaging 3 to 4 day trips and not just 1 like pan fishermen.

As for not having pan fish left in KY, are there just 3 bodys of water down there as I believe there are only muskies in the Cave run, Green River and Buckhorn lake?

Now a 40 inch limit will create a better muskie fisheries and help your economy even more by inviting more out of state fishermen to come and visit. I am sure a smaller creel limit on your panfish would also help make it a better fisheries, why not try to do your part instead of blaming the other guys.

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin
http://www.trophymuskiecharters.com

[Marc Thorpe]

Denzil,some thoughts for you.

Do you have a bag limit on your panfish?
If not you should,they could be sold commercialy by individuals leading to the depletion of panfish stocks.Take only 5 years to hurt it seriously.We had done here.
We now have a 50 a day limit.

Maybe you are collectvely keeping more than the ecosystem can rehabilitate itself?

Is there enough liveble habitat?
Has the habitat been altered?

Water rising and falling during spawning,incubation,yoy fragile periods by your local Dams can lead to depletion.

Have you looked into research of possible diseases in your population.

I highly suspect the main forage as Shad,perch if any are present.

Yes they do eat bluegills but not all of them.
Its not the main forage,perch,shad,cat fish,shinner,suckers are primary forage.

These are questions you must find answers to before making assumptions of the detriment muskies may pertrude on your ecosystem.
Contact your local DNR and do some research first.

Marc Thorpe

[Cave Run Angler From the North]

Denzil and anyone reading this thread,
I read the entire record of the meetings held about the crappie issue/muskie population in the lake before I fished Cave Run this Spring, and your comments therein. I found your beliefs about Muskies and the relationship of panfish to muskies to be ridiculous, unfounded, and loudly proclaimed to be fact only because you say so. You attacked the State of Kentucky Biologists, the Fisheries Management Professionals,Muskie anglers, guides, and more....all based on absolutley NOTHING but your personal opinion. You, sir, are full of beans, period.

ANYONE reading anything this guy posts---his agenda is based on politics, not good fisheries biology. He loves the podium, which unfortunately he has taken here at MC. He can't argue logically with the biologists because of the fact they know what they are doing, and have spent a lifetime studying the ecosystems in the area, so he belittles them, attacks them personally, and goes absolutely bonkers in public with the issue. How can ANY reasonable person take this guy seriously?

Call Crash. He will tell you the crappie fishing on the Cave was great this year. Good fish, and good numbers.

Muskies don't eat many crappies, the idea they do is hogwash. They eat the shad, and other baitfish; the staple portion of a muskie's diet. My advice to you, sir, is to read up on the actual biology of the ecosystem you supposedly are supporting, and shut the heck up until you can support your rhetoric with fact, not accusations. One thing for sure, I will never spend a dime in your shop!! And....guess what? I am a Crappie angler, too!!!

[Cave Run local]

First of all I attended the meeting on January 8,2002 and the fish hatchery at Cave Run lake. At the meeting the biologist told us that it takes about three years for a crappie to reach 7-8 inches. They also told us that in 1996,1997, and 1998 the crappie had record spawning years. An they said that 1999,2000,and 2001 should have been real good fishing years, but they were not. The biologist also said they could not explain this and had no clue as to what happened to those fish from those spawning classes. I will agree that the crappie fishing was better this year than the last three, but is not close to what it was. The biologist also informed us that musky is the only species stocked in cave run annually. Their words no mine nor Denzil Brewers. The local anglers would like to see the biologist make some effort to stock bass,crappie, and whitebass in cave run. Musky are the top predator and nothing is going to eat them except people. So why do they get stocked every year and nothing else. The only reason Denzil ever started his musky contest is because he could not get no answers from fish and wildlife. He figured if he put some pressure on the musky the biologist might open their ears. All the local anglers buy a liscense and yet the fish they fish for are never stocked. You live up north not here and you dont know everything that goes on. Sir just how would you like it if your favorite musky lake were you live was to get stocked with carp every year from now on and not one musky was ever put in the lake ever again. We are not against musky or musky fishermen. We fish for musky and we keep the legal musky. If you think the biologist know so much then why are so many of you musky fishermen wanting to change the size limit that they say is appropriate. If you beleive everything fish and wildlife tell then you better find your way out of the dark. One point about the meeting in Jan, you may not be aware of is the white bass had a massive die off three years ago. Fish and wildlife biologist never investigated it to see what killed them they admitted this publically at that meeting. Do you think if the musky had died they would have been so careless. I think not. That is our argument we want fish and wildlife to give the local residents something back. The local people had to give up their homes and farmland for that lake and yet all the attention is on musky and out of staters. I am glad you like cave run and I hope you and all your friends keep coming for years but I think fish and wildlife should pay attention to more than one species of fish. As far as what I said about the meeting I can back that up with documented proof. The gave everyone copies of everything discussed that night.

[KY LOCAL and musky fisherman]

Listen Delnel,
You evidently are poorly educated fish management wise and I don't hold that against you but when your logic breaks down that certainly bothers me. No, you may not have much book learnin but it is a little apalling that you evidently don't have much common sense either. You bring in one irrelevant argument after another as if they had some importance in this discussion, and it kind of shames me, as a fellow KY resident. We pride ourselves on at least having common sense.

You bring up the white bass die off as if that had something to do with musky. Heck no, doesn't, why would it? They died off, they weren't EATEN off. There were simply too many and a virus going round took them out. So what? Big deal? Happens to all wildlife populations and human populations too, ever heard of Asiatic and Swine Flu?? We can moderate the effects with vaccine and antibiotics but fish simply die back and then the population recovers. Delnal, you think something like this is odd but its not. Since you think you know so much about KY fishing how about the major die off of Shad winter before last? You don't mention that. Someone as well informed as yourself surely knew that happened. A ring of shad a yard wide for 20 miles, big shad too, and guess what, that's what the musky prefer for food. How could there be such an abundance in a stocked musky lake? Funny thing about it Dernel is that 8 months later in the fall of 2001 there was an incredible abundance of shad in the 4 inch class. They pittered on the surface like rain on a quiet evening. It is simply a cycle. At various times fish have booms and busts and some are very interrelated as in the case of white bass, crappie and shad. All are capable of explosive reproduction. If they were in a boom cycle every year they would soon eat themselves into the paper thin state they can be found in stunted populations. Why is it that you complain of poor fishing and yet professional crappie fisherman that come to Cave Run tell me that it is one of the most unexploited populations they have found due to the eurasion milfoil helping locate fish at transition times and temps. Have you changed your fishing style any Dilmr or are you still fishing the same way you used to? The lake has changed significantly with the growth of weeds that have come up. Have you changed or attempted to utilize these weeds for your fishing? Have your buddies? And the bluegills Delzel, the bluegills are reproducing at incredible rates. Go over the top of those same weedbeds and you will see gill after gill. Small ones too, as if there were too dang many of the things. How many crappie fry do those little buggers knock off in a years time Durnell?? How many? And have you noticed the boom in the flathead catfish population in your lake??? I have. Musky cause that too? Lake changes and weeds favor their reproduction. Know what the flatheads favorite foods are? Carp and panfish, oops, that would be like crappie and bluegill wouldn't it.

Darnill let's look at some other strategy for you to get rich in the new millenium. How fresh is your bread? When was the last time you painted/remodelled your store? When was the last time you increased your advertising budget? What type of stock turnover have you maintained for freshness and newness? Added any fishing tackle lately? Have you tried carrying suckers for bait in the fall? How much impact would you say Walmart has had on you Durnell?

The idea of muskie causing the fishing license sales to drop, eating all the panfish, causing bad fishing for the locals or chasing the locals away embarasses me Durnill, it embarrasses me as a KY homeboy that some of my brethren would come up with such hot air balloons for thought. These other ideas, 40" size limit will chase anglers away while helping guides keep their jobs? Cmon. How many bait shops will Cave run support when the competition comes from Wal Mart, K Mart, and Missouri(Bass Pro Shops). They sell the same thing as any bait shop on the lake but they probably buy and sell it cheaper. If you want to keep living in the 60s, 70s, 80s, you go ahead but don't blame your problems on the musky in Cave Run Lake or Gregg Thomas. You need to look in the mirror and check your problems out first hand buddy. And don't you dare claim that you are representing any KY anglers other than your own knowy self. Hope you can find some solutions to your problems. :)

[Jim McCullough]

Alrighty then...KY Local, you made some excellent points. I see no need for the childish name calling. In the future, do us all a favor and let the facts speak for themselves. Remove the name calling, and yours is the best post in this thread.

[BigUgly]

Mr. Brewer,

As an owner of a tackle shop I would encourage you to look at the simple economics of the situation. If you go to a boat launch on a good muskie lake you'll notice a few things. Some guys have fancy trucks, some not. Some have fancy boats, some not. But you can bet if you look in the boats you'll see a BUNCH of tackle. We make a hobby out of giving shop owners business. Heck, half the fun of this crazy hobby is buying the tackle. I could buy all of the crappie fishing tackle I would need for the next decade for $100. I can't even buy a decent muskie rod and reel for that let alone baits, leaders, line, etc... If I could find the time there is nothing I would rather do than come down to Cave Run during the cold months here in Minnesota. Seems like just the cure for cabin fever. If I do ever come down I don't think it will be for free.

Brad

[cave run local]

I guess you will wait till you get down here to buy all your equipment. Who cares how much you spend on tackle. Fishing is not supposed to be about money and yet most of you guys spend all your time telling me how much money Denzil is not going to make. He has been in buisness for around twelve years he aint see none of you in his store yet and he is doing rather well. I shop there alot and buy all my musky lures there because he is cheaper than any baitshop around cave run lake. I know because I have been in all of them.

[Phishin]

Cave Run Local,
You lend great credence to phrase, "Stupidity Should Hurt."

The reason that muskies are stocked and some species are not, is quite simple. Muskies do not reproduce. And given the fact that a fair number of musky anglers native to KY are fishing for meat (cool people like you), they need to be replaced.

It's cool to stir up crap here on the boards, but let's face it, ignorance and unsupported claims against muskies is not going to change the minds of educated people who manage your fishery.

Peace Out.
Steve Hulbert

[Another Cave Run local]

First of all i am responding to several things in all the post. First is the size limit on muskies at Cave Run Lake. This is just a rumor. I e-mailed the local North East Fishery Biologist, Lew Kornman, last week and here is what he e-mailed me back. We (Fish & Wildlife) plan on doing a creel survey on Cave Run Lake next year. During that time we are also going to be obtaining angler opinions on several subjects including the muskie size limit. If a 40-inch size limit goes through it will be because the majority of the anglers want it. However, at this time there is no plan (by fish & wildlife) to implement a 40 inch size limit on Cave Run Lake. Sincerely, Lew Kornman
So it looks to me like the local anglers are going to have the say in this issue. Praise the lord. Second is the white bass die off several years ago. One of Fish & wildlife's biologist made the statement their would be white bass in Cave Run Lake over his dead body. Well i personally know a guy who has relatives that live way up the Licking River where the white bass go every year to spawn. They give him a call one day and tell him they are catching lots of white bass. Well Fish & Wildlife show up one day for some unknown reason. The very next morning the local fishermen go out to white bass fish and their are white bass floating every where. So they call Fish & Wildlife and tell them what has happened. To my knowledge they have never showed up to investigate. Makes you wonder what happened, don't it? All the local anglers want is a fair deal. Why can't Fish & Wildlife stock other fish besides muskie? Not every one likes to muskie fish. Is this to much to ask for? Since most the local anglers are not muskie fishermen. All you have to do to find this out is go to one of the PMTT tournaments and you will find probably 15 to 20 locals fishing the tournament out of probably 100 to 125 boats, which is once a year by the way. On the other hand go to some of the bigger bass tournaments which they have during the whole summer ( 4-5 big tournaments plus all the local tournaments) and you will probably find 80-90 locals fishing these tournaments out of 100 To 125 boats. Where do you think all the money comes from now? The locals of course. Guys their are plenty of muskie in Cave Run Lake for every body to catch. The local guides tell me they catch between 200 and 250 muskie a year. The state record has been broken twice in the last 3 years. Fish and Wildlife said they were both 13 years old. How many muskie do they need? Don't sound to me like the local anglers are catching and eating to many of them does it? They stock 2800 muskie in Cave Run Lake every year, a fish that can live up to 13 years old plus. They can eat a lot of fish in that time. Plus all the other muskie reproduce too. Fish & wildlife told us a crappie could live up to 7-8 years, and they are not stocked. All we want are more bass, white bass, crappie, panfish, etc. stocked. Wouldn't that help the muskie population out to? Guys lets get along and good fishing to every body.

[Jim McCullough]

Denzil,

I have let you come on this board more than once and bring up this topic. It stirs up trouble every time you do it. I put up with it because I feel this is a legitimate issue that Muskie fisherman are only going to face more and more. What I will not let you do is come on here and pretend you are more than one person representing your view. There are a lot of "locals" posting from your computer. Tell them to get their own.

[Another Cave Run local]

Hey Steve,
Before you start calling people ignorant and stupid, you better check up on your information. Where do you think that Fish & Wildlife get their muskie to stock from any way? I'll tell you where. They go every year and shock the big fish up from below the dam and the lake is where they get them. Now you wreckin where they get the males from to fertilize the females? I would say the same place. Then they take them to the Minor Clark Fish Hatchery and milk the eggs out of them and put them in a more suitable environment to grow, so they can be protected until they are big enough to stock. And then they turn them loose. How do you explain why the males and females go up the creeks and rivers every year? It sure isn't for their health. Sounds to me like they are doing this to spawn wouldn't you say? Next time you call people names, get your information straight first. Call Fish & Wildlife some time and see if my information isn't correct. Lets not call people names, lets get along. This is a great place to voice your opinions, not call people names. Good fishing to you.

[KY LOCAL]

Denzil,
Here is a way you could make money off the musky fisherman and have them beat a path to your door regardless of what the fishing is like in the lake, get in touch with a guy out east of you named Jim Wilson,
get some of his baits for sale in your store. You can order some wholesale over the phone or the internet. Once you get them you can about double your money on them. There is a big demand right now and no one else has them on the lake. I believe he will give a monopoly dealership in different areas. Look up Hughes River Baits and I think you can find all the information on them and a phone number to get in touch with him or e mail. Make sure you get a big order in for your first stock because they sell like hotcakes down here if guys can just get one. Let me know when your shipment comes in. I would like to see some and buy them myself.

And for you other educationally challenged people. I am sure that not even most KY residents would believe that the DNR poisoned the white bass, sure Elvis is alive but the DNR would not poison white bass for the same reason they do not stock white bass, or largemouth or bluegills or crappie, they reproduce at such a rate that stocking is useless. And to get the fish to a survivable size would be prohibitively expensive for the numbers you would need. Fingerlings would just tend to turn into DNR fish food for the larger fish in the lake. And there is a second species stocked in the lake, walleye I believe.

Let's see, Elvis lives, the DNR poisoned the white bass run, and Cave Run guides catch 2-300 musky a year. Let's take a vote. At least several of us have SEEN Elvis, I don't know about the 2-300 musky per year, anybody seen those LOL.

[Another Cave Run local]

Dear Jim,
This is not Denzil Brewer, my name is Eddie Harris. My e-mail address is evjk@mrtc.com I came on here to voice my opinions, which i thought was aloud. I have not called any ones names or done anything wrong. I appologize if i upset you. All i have done is given some facts that i know are the truth. I am a local, i live 10 miles from Cave Run Lake, and i fish their a lot. Once again i appologize to you. From now on i will give my name. I have nothing to hide. All we want is lots of good fishing for every body, especially our kids, of which i have 2, one is 8 years old and loves to muskie fish with us, and the other one is 18 months old and i hope that she will love to fish to. Sincerely, Eddie Harris

[Jim McCullough]

You guys must be VERY close then Eddie. I have no problem with the content of what you have posted.

[Eddie Harris]

Thanks Jim. Thats cool. I do known Denzil very well. I do busniess with him some. We have our opinons like you guys do, and thats great because of such a good country we live in. I also know some of the local muskie guides very well and i also buy off of them to, and they are a good bunch of guys too. Thanks Again, Eddie

[Eddie Harris]

Hey Ky. local,
Afraid to post your name. I never said 200-300 muskie. I said 200-250 muskie. If you don't believe it visit Tony Grant's and Gregg Thomas's web sites and find out for yourself. Tony breaks it down month for month the muskie he, his guides, his clients catch. What did you say your name and e-mail address was? Eddie

[cave run local]

There has only been two people post from my computer. Me and I let Denzil because he does not have one. All these other cave run locals come from somewhere else. I will tell Denzil to get him a computer. I didnt know that was a problem. My name is Robert and my email address is fish@mrtc.com. I know Denzil very well and do buisness there frequently.

[Tim Donnelly]

It's too bad that the focus of the discussion is on economics, but that's a somewhat sad reality that we have to live with. I would say that there are many other reasons, that have already been mentioned in previous posts, as to why crappie fishing and others may be on a decline. Disease, spawning habitat, water levels, water temps, change in structure, baitfish, etc...

If you remove the musky from this scenario, then what would the locals blame for the sudden demise of the crappie, bass or other? You couldn't simply blame it on the musky so you would be forced to come up with a more educated explanation. It is very easy to simply blame the decline of a fisheries on the top predator in a food chain but it is usually not the case. Over harvest, bad spawn, most lakes cycle up and down with good year classes and poor year classes, disease, relocation, etc..

[Eddie Harris]

Tim,
You don't understand what were trying to do. All the Cave Run locals want is the same emphasis put on bass,white bass, crappie, panfish, etc. Most of the locals fish for muskie to. Personaly, i fish for muskie myself. I really enjoy it. My 8 year old son loves to fish for them to. We don't want the muskie removed from the lake. We just want Ky. Fish & Wildlife to put some of our money to work for something we need, instead of all of the money going for muskie only. Just this spring Fish & Wildlife had a meeting with all the local anglers, including most of the muskie guides in the area. They wanted our input on what was wrong with the crappie population in the lake. They had done some net tests in the fall of last year and they told us the numbers were down from the following year. They also told us that a size limit would be a bad idea because it takes 3-4 years for a crappie to reach 8" in our lake, and they were afraid that it would become over populated with small crappie if we had a good spawn and they had a size limit and none of the locals were aloud to keep any of the small crappie. Personaly i don't keep crappie under 8". I will say this, Fish & Wildlife did put some black crappie in the lake last year, only because they were for another lake being built but the lake wasn't finished yet, so they knew the numbers were down at Cave Run and they put them in there. I also heard they released some white bass this spring, but i don't known for sure. So you see we may be getting some place with them. Sincerely, Eddie

[ToddM]

We are not argueing with fisherman here guys these are meathunters, no sportsmanship or conservation in that. Don't waste your breath.

[robert]

I dont understand how you can say that. You guys tell us to listen to our fish and wildlife biologist because they are educated and know "eco system". They say its ok to keep two musky per day that are 30 inches long. If we were breaking the law then you would have a right to be mad. I have read several posts on this website over the past few months where you guys eat pike and walleye. Walleye are just as much a trophy fish to a lot of people as musky are to you. I read one were some of you guys seem to enjoy taking a club to the pike. I have no desire to wipe out the musky population. The local people have caught and kept musky since before the lake was impounded and we have not run out yet. In fact there have never been more musky than they are right now. The local muskie guides catch over 200 legal a year. The people down here don't take very many musky out of cave run in a years time. At the rate fish and wildlife are putting them in the lake you could not possibly catch them all out. Fish populations can get to big for their own good to. Everyones fishing liscense supports fish and wildlife. Now the only fish stocked annually is musky, the top predator. All we want is some of our fish stocked in the lake and that is not asking to much. Our argument is not with you musky guys its with fish and wildlife. Heck when you guys get old aint able to throw those big heavy plugs you may wish there was some whitebass or crappie to fish for.

[Tim Donnelly]

Eddie, I believe I do understand. I fish for Crappie, bass and other fish as well. I fish Cave run a few times a year, but that certainly doesn't make me an expert on cave run. I've seen this very same thing happen to a few lakes in Michigan, my home state. The bass or panfishing went down hill for 5-10 years or so. These lakes are now doing better. There was no stocking. Simply nature taking it's course.
In cave run, it is my understanding that the muskies don't reproduce, as other species do, so they need to be stocked. My first thought would be that along with continued increased fishing pressure that the daily bag limits, if there are any for crappie would need to be looked at. If all the locals, or others, were used to keeping all the crappie, bass, muskie, etc.. they caught then sooner or later it will have an impact on the lake. This kind of thing happens over and over. You here the old timer say, "why we used to catch loads of (insert species of fish)10-15 years ago but it's really slowed down. If you ask them if they kept all of the fish they caught they will usually say "yes". They've answered their own question.

Not to say that all lakes are tougher than they used to be. I've experienced fishing in many lakes where the fishing is better through catch and release, higher size limits, smaller daily bag limits, etc..

[cincinnati]

Musky spawn, but DO NOT successfully reproduce (There IS a difference!) in Cave Run or any other of the impoundments in the lower midwest, therefore the need to stock annually.

2800 muskies per year is a very low stocking rate. Most states stock @ least ONE fish per acre to maintain an existing population.

Stocking panfish is tricky business because of the explosive spikes which can occur in an existing population. You stock to supplement, the existing population spikes upward & stunting can easily occur. Crappies are particularly susceptible & can exacerbate the problem in other species, as well.

[Robert]

Did the musky forget how to reproduce once the river was dammed up. The licking river is full of musky and the river was full of musky before cave run lake was impounded. There has been good musky since the first boat could float on that lake. They have been stocking them ever since, and nothing else. The crappie fishing was good for twenty some years and when the white bass died the crappie fishing mysteriously went bad to. Why shouldn't us local people expect fish and wildlife to investigate to see what happened. After all we have bought liscense for many years and have not seen anything to benefit what we fish for. No one has a right to rule this a natural die off with out studying some of those fish. I am no expert but I do beleive it takes more than one day for natural causes to kill off an entire species of fish. For three years nothing has happened,nothing has been said, so some of the local have decided to try to get some action from fish and wildlife. I do not want the musky killed off or even stopped stocking. I want some whitebass,crappie,and bass put in the lake. You talk about musky cant reproduce well the pan fish dont get the opportunity to reproduce here many years with the fluctuating water levels in the spring. Why not stock some. I have to say that the crappie are coming back some I have done better this year than the last three. There is no reason why we cant get along. I personally want to see cave run produce big musky but I beleive it could offer alot more also. For years all we have seen is muskies stocked every year,fishing liscense price rise every 3or 4 years,new trucks and boats for fish and wildlife, no panfish. If this was the case where you lived you would have a right to be aggravated I think.

[ToddM]

Robert, I see some of what you are saying now. I just don't agree how you and others have gone about it. Maybe they should stock crappie and bass. I can't disagree with you on that. I think there are better ways to get the attention of the dnr. The method chosen has alienated a section of fisherman instead of banding together. That's not good.

As far as spawning, I doubt it happens sucessfully in the lake itself but in the river yes, thus the need to stock them. The 2 per day 30" limit is based on what the dnr feels the kept rate may be. If everybody kept 2 fish per day it would be disasterous.

[robert]

Like I said before I truly do like to musky fish. I don't spend much time at it, and dont know nearly as much about it as I do other species. I know there is nothing like the battle they give you. We may have took the wrong path,but it seems like fish and wildlife are finally paying us some attention. This has been brewing for years and it finally just erupted. I have no bad feelings toward you or any other guys on here. It is good to have an opinion whether it is right or wrong. I hope you catch a big one when your at cave run. I think we all have brought up some good points and some bad points. I don't think you will have to worry about everyone catching and keeping two muskies a day.

[Eddie Harris]

Tim,
You made some very good points. I don't know how many times i have heard the old timers say that the fishing isn't near as good as it use to be. The daily creel limit on crappie in Cave Run Lake is 30 per person, with a 60 limit on possesion. No size limit. I'm pretty sure that muskie do reproduce in the lake though. I'm going to check into that more though. I have a friend that works at the fish hatchery below the lake and i'm going to talk to him about this. I will get back to you with more information about muskie reproduction in the lake. I have fished Cave Run for several years and have caught 2 muskie in 1 day only once, lots of times you will never catch a muskie or even see one. So i don't think the local fishermen are effecting the muskie population to much. What about all the muskie, the guides are catching right now with the weather so hot? It was 97 degrees here today. What is the mortality rate of muskie when the water temperatures are so high? If they think so much of their fish why don't they leave them alone until it cools down? Eddie

[firstsixfeet]

You have a good point here Ed. I don't know what the mortality rate is and I would certainly like to know what the effects would be. As I read my Cave Run Lake and Dam report, an interesting little gem, it says that the thermocline right now is somewhere between 15-20 feet and probably right at 20 foot level if I am correct in interpreting the stats. 72 degrees at that level and jumping to 84 degrees going from above the thermocline to the surface. That means any fish hooked that is down in the more comfortable temps near the thermocline is exposed to a 12 degree or more jump in temperature when brought to the surface. Any degree of fight and handling would certainly increase potential survival problems. I am uncomfortable with that. I don't know what the survivability of fish caught under these parameters might be. I know at 12 degrees difference you can knock out aquarium fish with thermal shock. Not sure what the effect is on a musky though. I would have thought the guides would not be pursuing musky at this time of year. Which specific guides are actually fishing for musky there now?

[0723]

The muskie out of staters are the economy!This is just like wisconsin, they depend surronding states economical support for fishing.I bet you all the people from wisconsin will admit this also.Muskie eat shad.The other fish do not get eaten.Go to a biologist in the cave area and ask him what MUSKIE EAT.They eat SHAD!The percentage of panfish they eat is less than 1 percent you will find out.Get facts straight before posting.By the way I did not see any muskie sporting goods stores in the cave area go out of business.Have a nice day Bill Ramsey 0723.

[Robert]

Like I have said before I don't care how much money you bring into my area. Fishing to me is about having fun and relaxation. I go fishing to get a way from the worlds problems and what does the worlds problems revolve on, momey. I guarantee you out of staters dont pump more money into the cave run economy than all the local bass fishermen. I have said I like to musky fish and I don't want the musky killed off. All we want is some of local anglers money spent on something other than musky. I would like to ask you one question have you attended any of the local meetings with fish and wildlife here at cave run like we have? I know what was said there by both sides. I have all the papers they gave me at the meeting to.
If you give me your address I will be happy to send you a copy of them. I have talked to fish and wildlife biologist about our problems several times. If musky only eat shad then why are so many musky being caught on live bluegill this summer. I know one man who has caught over 30 setting in the same spot fishing with a bluegill.
Just like one guy said last night on here the way we have gone about getting something done has ailienated the musky fishermen. I have to say I can see his point and respect that. The musky shops also run guide service to so that helps them a lot. With the musky population as good as it is they shouldn't go out of buisness.

[0723]

First off Robert you made your statements in a positive way which I respect.As for just going out fishing I am fortunate enough still fish big tourneys for bass and musky.Musky fisherman to me are much more ethical on the water than bass anglers.I have fished musky tourneys for 20000 dollars without a problem.I will fish a bass tourney for 200 dollars and I will have other boats riding in my wake.And for panfisherman lets not even start there for be courtieous to others,because MOST ARE NOT.So if you fish for relaxation I think you should want all the musky fisherman you can get on the cave.I figure with 2 big musky tourneys there everyear and all the client tell at the musky resorts not counting the rest of the the area that caters to musky fisherman ,the other fisherman can not even come close to the money brought in by the outsiders.As for the bluegills;If I put any fish on a hook and let sit where a muskie will be of course it will get eaten.That is a very unfair statemet just because someone holds a fish in a feeding zone,##### I bet a big crappie would hit it.Just some different views for you to look at.Robert good luck fishing.bill ramsey

[robert]

I have to admit defeat on one point Bill. Out of staters defintely will spend more on motels than the local people. I never knew there were two big musky tournaments here. I only knew of one. I think courtesy on the water is something all types of fishermen have trouble with. Just because one guy does something rude on the water doesn't mean everyone does it. I can promise you I won't cut you off a bank or throw waves across your boat that nearly sink you. I know what you mean there are a lot of people on the water that don't need to be there. I still think local anglers bring in more money than outsiders. There are several big bass tournaments that will draw 100 boats or more, there are three local tournaments held every week. Hey it don't really matter as long as we are all fishing.

[fishkopp]

The spackle bucket after spackle bucket of kept panfish x the number of anglers trying to fill there freazers for the winter = less fish.
It sounds like you all need some stricter limits . Its time to open your eyes to the real problem (over harvest).

good hunting

mike

[Cletus]

Wattza spakl bukit?

[robert]

Well I do agree people should be more choosy about what they keep. I dont keep a bunch of little crappie. I don't think over harvest is the problem. For twenty some years cave run produced good numbers of crappie. Then the same winter the white bass all kicked out the crappie fishing went bad to. There are two lakes with in 10 miles of cave run that are loaded with bass,crappie,bluegill, and catfish. These two lakes get fished very heavily every year. They are less than 50 acres and yet they have never slowed down producing good fish. I have fished them over 15 years and have never seen a bad year at them. People take just about every thing they catch out of these lakes to and yet they are still loaded with fish. Both lakes together are less than 100 acres and have not been fished out. So how does over 8000 acres get fished out. Fishing is cave run was doing great up to 4 years ago when it changed like you throwed a light switch. The crappie will come back on their own. This year is better than the last three. However the whitebass are history if they don't get help from fish and wildlife.

[Weed Man]

Consider this,has the weed population exploded in the last few years?Would this be about the time the Musky Bait fishing went in the bag? You went from no weeds to a sprawling Jungle. Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out the problem? >Well I do agree people should be more choosy about what they
>keep. I dont keep a bunch of little crappie. I don't think
>over harvest is the problem. For twenty some years cave run
>produced good numbers of crappie. Then the same winter the
>white bass all kicked out the crappie fishing went bad to.
>There are two lakes with in 10 miles of cave run that are
>loaded with bass,crappie,bluegill, and catfish. These two
>lakes get fished very heavily every year. They are less
>than 50 acres and yet they have never slowed down producing
>good fish. I have fished them over 15 years and have never
>seen a bad year at them. People take just about every thing
>they catch out of these lakes to and yet they are still
>loaded with fish. Both lakes together are less than 100
>acres and have not been fished out. So how does over 8000
>acres get fished out. Fishing is cave run was doing great
>up to 4 years ago when it changed like you throwed a light
>switch. The crappie will come back on their own. This year
>is better than the last three. However the whitebass are
>history if they don't get help from fish and wildlife.

[Weed Man Again]

The Lake has taken on weeds,Hence gives the Musky Bait(panfish especially Crappie) thousands of Acres to hide in.Is it that difficult to figure out.I bet the Panfish (Musky Bait)fishing went downhill as the weeds multiplied.Am I right? If not then My 9 year old is willing to guide for crappie on Cave Run to help out the Local Panfisherman. Go Gregg!

[robert]

The weeds have been there longer than three years. The fish and wildlife biologist also say crappie numbers were way down the last three years. According to their net studies. Why don't you call them and fill them in on what you know. They told us this on Jan.8, 2002. That is fact. They had no explanation for this. I have the documentation they gave us to back up what I am saying. You want a copy give me your address and I will mail it to you.

[Sponge]

Glad to see the board back up again....had I known there was a hornets nest though I would have worn a bee keepers suit! ;) At any rate glad to see the post pretty much clean.
Being from Va., a neighboring state somewhat, I enjoy going to Cave Run for musky fishing. I spend a pretty good chunk of change, but it's worth it 'cause I really like the lake + the peeps that live + fish there. I doubt that my $$$$ will pull anyone out of the poor house, but perhaps it helps some get by another day. You face many of the probs. we have here...down cycles of different types of panfish etc. I know when flathead catfish realyy took off, the panfish + smallbass + redeyes took a nose dive as the flatheads prefer live bait. Also the white bass + walleye populations had a dent put in them; mostly from peeps keeping everything they caught. As far as musky eating bluegill, I can understand that as a small 'gill on a hook makes for an easy meal for any kind of fish due to the fact that it is readily available + easy to catch. Studies done on musky here show their prefered food are soft rayed fish such as shad, carp + suckers, though not limited to just those fish. Hopefully some type of balance can be reached here because along w/ fishing, I also come to enjoy all the neat things Ky. has to offer + the folks I've met while there have been top notch, + I'm treated w/ respect + friendly waves...probably because I wear a paper sack over me head! When peeps come here to fish we try to treat them well also...being nice + helpful go along way in deciding issues that otherwise might take turn for the worse when heads bump...Happy Easter!

[Robert]

No complaints tonight. I have a question for you guys. How many muskie can one acre support?

[Musky Mike]

Folks:
I've read all the posts on this thread and certainly can't add any further statistical information to support either side's contention. But I would offer up the following following personal observations:

1. For we musky addicts to offer up to the average local KY fisherman how much money we bring into his/her economy during our out-of-state visits to their area is unimportant, disinteresting, and almost degrading. Why? Because they don't really care, it has little or no importance or impact to them personally. Unless they happen to be motel, resort, tackle shop, or restaurant owners why would it? Our only real impact on them is more boat traffic and less boat ramp area parking while we're at their local lakes, rivers, or streams.

2. For us to negatively comment on their attempts to get their fish and wildlife biologists to assist them in stocking other fish species than muskies is misguided and unnecessary, it has no affect on us. We are not going to KY to fish for panfish. Why on earth should we care if KY stocks panfish, other than to take the opportunity to support KY locals in their endeavor if that's what they want done?

3. The local panfish angler may not know a lot about muskies, musky fishing, the preferred forage, or how long it takes an adult musky to attain any certain length or weight, but calling them ignorant or other deragatory names certainly isn't going to help our and/or the musky's cause. First of all, if they don't also fish for muskies, why the heck would they care? Secondly, if they do fish for muskies then they are just as well aware of all these facts as anyone and calling them ignorant and spewing the obvious at them isn't going to win anyone any medals.

4. Arguing that the DNR has to stock muskies because they don't reproduce naturally (unless also stipulating stocked sterile hybrid muskies) isn't fully accurate and serves to offer no solution to their stated concern, that being a decimated panfish population.

5. Comparing the cost of boats and equipment between an avid musky angler and a typical panfisherman is toatally out of line. It has nothing to do with the issue and is really a cheap shot. And not all of we musky anglers have top of the line highly expensive gear anyway. Speaking personally, any number of panfishemen, in KY and elsewhere, will have me equalled or beat at total cost of equipment for sure.

6. If we want to educate the non-musky fishing population in KY and elsewhere regarding the musky, it's preferred forage, and value we have to approach it in a professional, non-threatening manner. This thread started with a KY citizen criticizing a KY musky guide's attempt to increase the size potential for KY muskies. He didn't lash out at musky anglers in his own state and certainly not at we out-of-staters. Certainly there were some inconsistencies in the information provided which warranted rebutal but it was we musky fishing addicts who escalated this topic to the personal attack level. That's uncalled for and counter-productive to our cause.

7. In summation, I would like to express to the KY local panfishermen that we certifiable musky addicts have no wish to lessen your fishery, panfish or otherwise, quite the opposite. Predators keep prey populations in check, it's the law of nature, and it's as true with the muskies as it is with bass, walleyes, pike, pickerel, etc. Muskies don't decimate panfish populations, other factors are responsible for that. I for one can understand how you feel when you read where the DNR is considering further regulations to promote musky fishing but won't address your main concerns and I know many other fellow musky addicts are aware of and share in your concerns.

We musky addicts aren't really a bad lot, we're just passionate about our chosen fish species and sometimes we get a little over zealous and often too outspoken. Hope it all works out to everyone's satisfaction. And just for the record, I like catching a mess of slab-sided crappies on occasion as well as the next guy, wouldn't want to do anything to lessen or remove that possibility for anyone.

Sorry for the long posting, it just seemed something that needed to be said.

[Eddie Harris]

Mike,
Nice post. Where you from? Thanks for the support. We just want good fishing for every body, locals and out of staters both. Would like to hear more from you. You sound like a level headed person. Thanks again. Eddie

[Robert]

I agree with you Ed. This guy has set a good example for all us.

[Musky Mike]

Eddie, Robert:
Thanks for your kind words. I just felt those points had to be spoken. I presently hail from Algoma,Wisconsin near Green Bay, but have also lived (and fished) for muskies
and other species in Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Connecticut, and Maryland.

I have never fished Kentucky, but hope to correct that some day. Would love to spend some time on the water at Cave Run. I enjoy fishing different waters in different areas
of the country and meeting anglers with which I share a common bond. I truly do hope your DNR adequately assesses and addresses your situation there and that all anglers fishing for all species can do so in peaceful harmony.

Mike Kagel
Algoma, WI
mkagel@greenbaynet.com

- A Certifiable Musky Maniac -

"We may release the musky, but she'll never release us"

[Eddie Harris]

Muskie Mike,
It's guys like you that make it a pleasure to fish. Sure hope you get to come to Cave Run some time. You won't be disappointed. Heard from a friend of mine the other day, who had e-mailed Fish & Wildlife. They e-mailed him back and told him they had turned loose, back in the spring 2 million fingerling white bass and a bunch of adult size white bass in the head waters of Cave Run Lake. They also had reports of anglers seeing them in the jumps already. Sounds like we may be getting through to them. Good fishing to you Mike. Eddie

Eddie Harris
Frenchburg, Ky.
evjk@mrtc.com

[Eddie Harris]

I got on Tony Grant's web site the other day and got these numbers for you guys. His web site is www.kymuskie.com Scroll down to fishing report and click on it. Scroll down to 2002 for the number of muskie caught for each month and photos. Next scroll on down to 2001 for the number of muskie caught for each month and photos. These muskie were caught by him, his guides, his clients, and his guests. Here are the numbers. Firt the PMTT tournament this spring there were 48 legal muskie caught in 11/2 days.

2002
Jan.-8(all legals)
Feb.-11(9 legals - 2 sub legals)
March-35(27 legals - 8 sub legals)
April-46(37 legals - 9 sub legals)
May-61(52 legals - 9 sub legals)
Total:161(133 legals - 28 sub legals)
This is for only 5 months of fishing on The Cave.
82.6 % are legal fish caught.

2001
March-95(57 legals - 38 sub legals)
April-87(54 legals - 33 sub legals)
May-66(51 legals - 15 sub legals)
June-41(28 legals - 13 sub legals)
July-38(31 legals - 7 sub legals)
August-41(39 legals - 2 sub legals)
Sept.-39(33 legals - 6 sub legals)
Oct.-78(60 legals - 18 sub legals)
Nov.-21(18 legals - 3 sub legals)
Dec.-9(6 legals - 3 sub legals)
Total:515(377 legals - 138 sub legals)
73.2 % are legal fish caught.

Why would any one want to raise the size limit to 40"? The percentage of legal fish would go way down.

Keep in mind these are the total number of muskie caught by Tony,his guides, his clients, and his guests. Some pretty staggering numbers for only 1 of the guide service's on Cave Run Lake. If you don't believe these numbers visit his web site. Good fishing to all. Eddie

[RoyC]

If you practice catch and release, it should be irrelevent whether a fish is legal or not, only the actual size should matter. I would rather catch a "sub-legal" 53-incher on LOTW than a "legal" 34-incher in Wisconsin. It seems like many people used to keep track of how many "legal" muskies they have caught, but I think that most people now keep track of how many 40-inchers or 50-inchers they have caught, regardless if they happened to be "legal" or not.

Also, if raising the size limit does eventually lead to more big fish as is hoped, then perhaps the percent of "legal" fish will increase gradually back to where it was before the limit was changed.

Roy

[tomyv]

Denzell,

You seem to be most concerned about panfish populations, and the stocking of bait. But, I can't seem to get past the title of your post "muskie wanted."

I assume you are the same "gentleman" that conducted the kill muskie contest last year on the cave. Just curious, how did that go? I've been told by Tony Grant your a pretty nice guy. But at the same time you come on here and attack Gregg Thomas for making a living in the fishing business. What do you do? Own a tackle shop correct? What's the differance?

Gregg and Tony provide a service that I am grateful of, and take advantage of. You should try muskie fishing sometime, it's not the easiest thing in the world.

Furthermore, educate yourself. Muskies have no noticeable affect on panfish populations.

As far as muskie fisherman helping the local economy, there is no doubt they do. I am from PA, and only go to KY to fish the cave. The moorehead tourism association is a sponsor of the PMTT. Why is that?

When I go to the cave and look around the parking lots, I see a lot of vehicles with plates from Minn., WI, PA, OH and others. They have to eat, buy licenses, baits, (which I always spend at least $110/trip)
and other things. Maybe you should go with the thinking, if you can't beat em join em.

[Tim Donnelly]

The term "legal" only means that one has a choice to keep a fish at or above that size limit. Musky fisherman use the term for various reasons including statistics, prestige, etc.. If most of us are catch and release oriented then the limit is irrelevant. I would say that most musky fisherman use a standard beyond the "legal guidelines" that
the DNR has set, educated decision or not, and use their personal educated ethical amd moral guidelines when choosing to release a musky or not.

[Robert]

Denzil did sponsor a fishing tournament this year. No were in the contest rules does he promote killing a musky. I don't know where you get the idea he attacked Gregg Thomas. Gregg was on here pushing his idea of a 40 inch size limit. Denzil disagreed with him and so do I. This was a free country the last I heard and it is alright to disagree with someone. Denzil does make part of his living off of fishing but it includes all types of fishing. Denzil does quiet well in his buisness and 99 percent of you guys have never been in his store. Like I keep saying our argument is not about how much money you bring down here. All we have wanted is to get some whitebass stocked in cave run. According to e-mail I got from Lou Korhman,northeastern fisheries biologist, earlier this week they have stocked 2000000 whitebass fingerlings into caverun and several hundred adult size whitebass. That is the news we have been waiting to here for over three years. I wish you all well and good luck fishing on cave run.

[Eddie Harris]

Hey tommyv,
Just got back from fishing Cave Run Lake. We fished out of Long Bow boat ramp, only seen 1 vehicle from out of state, where were all those other out of state vehicles you were talking about? You sure you didn't base your information on the PMTT tournament this spring? What about the unnoticable effects muskie have on panfish. You guys say that muskie don't eat panfish, what about that crappie i had a hold of this spring, and this muskie about 36" long took it away from me, line and all? He must not have read the rule book, did he? Eddie

[Musky 23]

Eddie, Just to clear up one point. Musky fishermen don't generally fish for musky when the water temps rise above 85. Also, the musky season is now open in Wisconsin and Minnesota so there is no real reason to travel south to fish. Take a look out at the ramps from December-June and then you will see just how many people travel to fish in Kentucky. Good Luck, Mike

[Robert]

The musky fishermen down here dont abide by the 85 degree rule. I see all kinds of musky fishermen down here fishing all summer. Yes there are several guys from up north fishing down here in the spring but the local people out number the musky fishermen big time. The bass fishermen are out in big numbers flipping the brush and the crappie fishermen are everywhere to.

[Eddie Harris]

Musky 23,
I have to disagree with you on that one. Last year in August, when the muskie come up shallow in Leatherwood and Buck Creek, you would see up to 10-15 boats every day and every evening fishing for muskie.
Including most of the local guides. I was there, i know this for a fact. Eddie

[ackermannsacre]

I'm spending over $1500 for a fly-in to Northwest Ontario next month fishing for Muskie. I have no idea what the "legal" limit is, nor do I care. If I hook a 30" I'll be thrilled, if I hook a 40" I'll be thrilled, if I catch a 60", well that is what reproduction mounts are made for. There is no way I would keep any of these precious gamefish to eat or put on my bragging wall, just because someone says it is legal to do so.

Bill

[Robert]

You said if you cant beat them join them I guess you will be coming aboard with us panfishermen now. I guess you would have to say we won, we got our whitebass and a promise of crappie next year. You said you spend 110 dollars a trip. About 20 dollars of that would be profit, so you would have to make 2000 trips a year down here in order for someone like Denzil,who owns a bait shop, to make a good living.

[tomyv]

I meant $110 on baits alone.

I thought you are only concerned about panfish stocking? Then why are you on a muskie board with a post title "muskie wanted."

And the contest wasn't about killing a muskie! That's the funniest joke I've heard for awhile. Being that to enter a fish in the contest you had to bring it to the store, how would it live?

Maybe with the steady diet of crappie it makes a fish able to breath out of water.

[Robert]

Thought I would let you know that the musky contest is coming to an end soon and will not be going on next year. Denzil is a man of his word he said if they stocked white bass that he would not have the contest no more. We got what we asked for. I hate that you musky fishermen got upset but there was no way to make any head way with fish and wildlife without putting some pressure on thier prize fish. This was never planned to make you guys mad and that is the truth. I can understand why you would get mad but it was only meant as a bargaining tool with fish and wildlife. The reason I or any of the other panfishermen ever posted on here was because some of you guys were posting stuff about Denzil and his contest and some of it got pretty nasty. We have never threatened to tear down no ones house or buisness or beat up anyone. We have remained civil on here as well as most of you all have. Cave Run is our lake and we want our DNR to spend some of our money on the things we want not 100 percent on musky like it has been for many years. We have finally made some progress with them and we greatly appreciate it. I have always heard that is not good to put all of your apples in one basket.