TV GUYS SHOULD TEACH THE RIGHT WAY

[OKOBOJI]

Just finished up a weekend of fishing shows on TV and I can't believe how these guys handle thier fish.When are these people going to understand how much influence they have on a new Muskie fisherman?In our area we are working our butts off to teach people how to handle fish,but when they see the experts(especially the ones with PH.D's)holding fish vertical,we kind of lose our credibility.While I don't claim to be an expert(and I don't have a PH.D in muskie fishing)it does not take a genius to realize that holding a muskie verticle is not a healthy situation for that fish.Maybe they feel they need to hold fish this way for better TV,but it would be just as good if they supported the fish and held it horizontally.
One of the TV guys made the comment that his next 50"er would be number 77.What I wonder is that if he held every 50"er like I saw him hold the fish he caught on his show this weekend,how many of those 50"ers became someone elses first 50"er? Probably not many.
This is obviosly an age old debate,vertical versus horisontal,net versus no net,all I am saying is if a guy has a fishing show he has an obligation to teach people the right way to handle fish.Especially if he has a PH.D and is charging a hundred bucks for anglers to get their PH.D in muskie fishing.
Also someone needs to cough up enough courage to tell even Al Lindner(whom I have nothing but the greatest respect for)that the way they hold muskies and big pike is not a good example for their audience.I have wanted to say that for many years,as they may be the most educational and influencial fishing people on Earth,yet they hold every muskie and pike they catch by the jaw vertical.You won,t see Doug Johnson,Dick Pearson or Pete Maina holding fish like that.
I will get of my soapbox after one more thing.Maybe with the seminar season just starting,maybe the experts should try a lttle harder at teaching safe and proper handling of fish.I know I wouldn't take Jackpot hooks out of a fish without a pliers or hookouts and I surely wouldn't hold a 50"er vertical for pictures(and I don't even have a PH.D!!)
SHANNON GREEN

[wayne klemz]

Shannon, you have my vote... Who taught these people how to handle these fish... I've been doing the seminar and guide thing for a few years, and I always stress to everyone Handle them as well as possible. A miss handled fish IS a candidate for delayed mortality.. If you kill a 45" fish It WILL not grow to 46", or 50" ..Everyone in this sport of fishing, should be an instructor of good and proper fish handling! Remember...Don't break the toy!!!! Waynes World Guide Service..

[Steve Jonesi]

Amen!!! I was thinking the same thing after getting my "fix" this weekend. Thank you Shannon for bringing this to light, and thank you for all you've done for the fisheries here in Iowa.I will make it up there from Cedar Rapids this year if it kills me!Long live muskies in IOWA!!!!! Steve Jonesi

[Don Pfeiffer]

several weeks ago watching one of the bass fishing shows I saw a very big name do the following. After catching a nice bass he decided to retie. He cut off several feet of mono and threw it into the lake. I could not believe my eyes that this guy would discard mono into the lake. Hard on motors and the wildlife.
Pfeiff

[Musky Mike]

Tossing cut mono into the lake, river, or stream is unbelievable for sure, but guess it goes to prove that just because they (anglers) are on TV doesn't necessarily mean that they are doing what's best for environment and species.

[Internet Pro]

The only reason someone is on TV is because they have sponsors. If you don't like what they preach contact the SPONSORS and tell them why.


Should that be over 77 lbs over 250?

[Atlanta Dave]

My question is what research or facts are there that support the theory that holding a fish verticle is hazardous to the fish? I am curious I have heard it both ways but have never really read where it has been ascerta;ilned tha damage will be caused by holding the filsh that way.

Good Fishing
Atlanta Dave

[Lance Christensen]

I for one am very pleased that some one finally had the courage to say what we should ALL be thinking. These Muskies should be held in very high regard. Make no mistake they are by some anglers. It seems odd to me that the Trout fishing TV show guys handle there pretty little Muskie snacks like its the last trout they will ever see. Keep in mind these trout are 1 to 3 years old and they will likely catch a dozen or so per fishing trip. The Muskies we are doing the most damage to are the older fish maybe 10 to 20 years old. Disregarding the actual scientific evidence, this alone should tell us something.Or how about the Carp fishing in Europe these guys actually lay the fish on a wet rubber mat then put antibiotic ointment on the lip after the hook is removed not to mention the other care they give to help increase the survival of there great game fish. I wonder how many Carp or Trout there are per acre. I wonder how many Muskies there are per acre on any give body of water. Any light bulbs going on yet, do I have to spell this one out to anybody!!!!!!
Point is don't we have an obligation to this great game fish we all love and cherish to give it the best possible chance of survival.
Now if you want facts we have them as well, there has been research that will document mortality be improper fish handling.Talk to your local fish biologist I don't believe for a minute there is a fish biologist that will give the thumbs up to holding these large fish vertical. I have been a taxidermist for almost 30 years I can tell you that when you pick up a large muskie vertically that you are in fact putting a huge amount of stress on the spine not to mention the internal organs. When the adrenaline is pumping through your body after the catch you can't feel the vertebra pop. Try it, if and when you or your buddy keeps one to mount pick that fish up by the chin like the Pros do on TV and FEEL the spine pop. Putting things in perspective a 30 pound boy could be picked strait up by the head, its likely there will be little if any damage but try the same maneuver with a 200 pound man and I promise the weight alone of his own body will cause serious damage to his spine. I am not suggesting we try this experiment but you should be able to see the logic in this.
Again I would like to say that I agree with Shannon on this 100% these TV personalities do have a moral obligation to show the general viewing population the right way to handle these awesome fish. The well being and safety of the fish as well as the angler should be addressed. It would be great if they would practice what they preach CPR means nothing if there is delayed mortality. Maybe your thinking they are not hurting any thing and there is no proof that any of these fish are dying. That's the beautiful thing about living in the USA its ok to disagree. Tell me this though do you really want to take that chance, what if your wrong!!!

Lance Christensen

[Devil's Advocate]

Oh pulllleeeeze. Lance you want us to ask any biologist what the implications of applying a given force to the jaw structure of large esocids. Seems to me physics is not a biologists specialty. Why not ask an engineer if the force exerted on a fish's jaw when it engulfs a 6mph lure and turning the other way is any greater than the force exerted upon the same jaw when held vertically. Holding a 40 pound fish would exert about let's see, using Newton's 1st law....40lbs. of pressure. In the case of the trolled lure it's like 40lbs. compounded with acceleration and other factors. Maybe we should start to criticize trollers for the massive destruction they are doing to our fisheries. Or.....maybe we could just practice what we feel is best for the fish and let everyone else do the same. Lance, you sound like a candidate for someone who should stop fishing altogether if you are that concerned. I wonder how many of your released fish died for whatever reason. Will we be putting lip medication on our released muskie hookup points in the future? Would you like to see it get that ridiculous? Maybe we could check them in to a vet to ensure a clean bill of health before releasing. Hey, I agree, jerking a fish around while holding it vertically COULD cause damage, but I doubt a quick one for a photo doesn't hurt. Don't forget, Biologists have to play politics all the time. Are they just paying lip service and being "politically correct" when they make these claims. For example, if biologists are so dead against the hold why have fisheries managers not taken notice and outlawed this dispicable scourge?

It's this kind of elitist thinking, always criticizing someone for something they didn't do the same way you do it, that gives muskie fishermen a bad name, not the guys on TV.

[Puddle of Mud]

It's still a fish.

Absolutely a fish.

No doubt about it, it's a fish.

A fish that I would like to continue to be able to pursue.

A fish that should be handled with care.

It's still a fish.

Medicated lips?

[Devil's Advocate]

When you can't offer a counter opinion, resort to name calling. Who's the idiot?

[fishkopp]

D.A.

I guess you don't use your drag system when you troll? You must use those 100x type of hooks so they don't straighten out when you hook up. What does D.A. really stand for?



God save the muskie

Mr mike to you

[BTPF]

I will probably get flamed for this but what is the
deal with some videos telling you to never lift a fish with hooks
in its mouth and then a show or two later you see them lifting a
fish up with hooks in its mouth?

And on the other hand the videos I buy are the same as the
ones I watch on tv on Saturdays. I paid over $20 dollars for
the same video I could of just waited till Saturday to see?

And then theirs always the cost of Musky baits. I dont really
mind paying the cost cause most baits are worth it but dang
are they a ripoff!

If you look at the 4.5 inch Zara Spook the lure is what $4 dollars?
So for a lure that is 8 or 9 inches Im paying $25+ dollars?

I dont even want to get into the $15 dollar leaders either.

[BTPF]

BTW- How much does the average Joe Bass angler spend in a year maybe
$50 dollars?

[fishkopp]

btpf

The reason you don't lift that fish with hooks in it, is so you don't get snagged to a pissed off muskie with 5/0 plus hooks. Its for your safety , not the fish. I once caught a hook through the soft skin of the knuckle while unhooking a fish in the net, thank god for friends fishing with you that can use minni bolt cutters. I got away easy compared to some storys I've heard.

The reason those pros do it ,is to sell baits.
Better them then me .

Good hunting to all and may you have a season of many boated muskies.

Mike K.

[R Wolff]

I think that maybe if some of these P.H.D people actually caught a good muskie once in a while they would eventually figure out how to handle the fish. Imagine throwing out a hundred bucks for a complete teaching when your teachers have only put two fifty-inchers in the boat over a twenty year run.

[puzzled]

Mr.Wolff, You make reference to something about 2 50'fish??? Is that in one trip, for you or like The guy that has a 522 rangler boat for sale? let's ALL take care of all the fish we CPR.L.C. has been doing taxidermy for a long time, and he can see all the damage that happens inside the creature... We want to think that the fish will be ok when it swims away...BUT!!! How bout the fish you hear bout that the people said they had to work on it for 40 min. but it swam away??!! In 40 min. the webber could be ready to use.. Better judgment and knowlege, will get better releases...

[Steve @ G & S Guide Service]

How much does the average bass guy spend? I'll tell you that it's way over $50. Have you priced Senko soft plastic lures? These lures are very soft and usually are only good for one or two bass. A 10 pack of Senkos costs $5.99 and some of the hand tuned crankbaits run $15 and more.

I would hazard a guess that the typical bass angler spends more in a year than the average muskie angler.

I fish for both species and even though I spend more time muskie fishing, I know I spend more on bass fishing.

Steve @ G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods.
http://www.herefishyfishy.com

[R Wolff]

Puzzled, sounds like your on the ball!!! Please don't bring up the guy with the 522 for sale it seems like he had the thread pulled to hide some guilt!! I agree with education but if I got my P.H.D. from a comic book character what validity would it have?

[einsteins instructor]

Naw, that's not fair.

But if you want a clue D. A. please try and lift 40 lbs. with your rod, reel and line, and then compare it to the force of any musky in the water. Oh wait, lifting 40 lbs. can't compare to the force of any fish in the water because at most you might vector say 10 to 15 lbs.. 20lbs? I will bet never on 20 lbs.

What does D. A. stand for?

[Musk Rat]

Mr Wolff Just cuz someone catches many fish over fifty doesn`t mean he is an expert at handling them. It only indicates one spends time fishing on waters with many fifties. I have fished with people who have caught many more fifties than me but i`m not so sure all of them are better at handling them. It has more to do with care than anything. Those who care spend the money for good realease equipment and treat the fish well. Those who care more about ego than the fish tend to treat them not as well weather it be a guide on lake chataqua catching mostly medium size fish or a guide on the St. lawrence catching mostly monsters.

[R Wolff]

Rat,practice doesn't make perfect but after time you get conditioned to many different release atmospheres. Having a mental picture and gameplan of your fishes release while you are fighting her is an absolute key to the fishes safe return. Things like this should taught at these high buck P.H.D's instead of the same old cycle of lure and location.

[Musk Rat]

Yea i agree with you and i have never atended any educational musky schools so i can`t comment on that. The trend does seem to be improved realese`s wich is good the only negative i see is the finger pointing net is better for the fish than the cradle ext. ext. The focus on not just letting them go but letting them go quickly with only a few quick out of water pics. if need be and mostly release photos. This is the trend at least i think i mean EA has a release colum right? I was just saying big fish doesn`t mean good releases in fact some trophy fisheman on the St. Lawrence still keep the big ones. Thats not a good release method but you could hire one of these guys and get a monster for your wall for a couple hundred bucks.

[R Wolff]

Enough said, still have the boxing gloves on!!! The Rat and I against the world!!!!

[Sportsman]

Anybody that holds a muskie or a pike in the vertical position, regardless of its size,(even for as little as 15 seconds), is an idiot.
Case closed.

[Musk Rat]

Closed case in your feeble brain. Your tellin me a pencil pike held verticaly is going to die give me a break no evidence whatsoever. I try to avoid the vertical hold but some fish try to jump out of your hand and i feel it`s better to hold them than let them fall in the boat. I have seen pictures of upper fifty inch fish cuaght on the Ottowa river some several times over. These fish were gaffed netted and held vertical in many cases yet they lived to be recaptured. How is that possible if a vertical hold is sure to kill a 40lb. fish. I`m not for useing the vertical hold i avoid it as a precationary measure but some of the claims i hear have no basis in fact. All kinds of fish saltwater and fresh are controlled and lifted by the jaw from bass to billfish and tarpon I dought weather the vertical hold realy harms that many fish i think the evidence is to the contaray. Tagging has proved that even verticaly held fish can swim away just fine. I`m realy sick of hearing muskie fisherman accuse each other of useing the wrong release methods. I think we should worry less about the other guy and try to improve our own release methods. Over handling out of the water coupled with stress is more of a factor in fish suvivability than how you land or hold it.

[einsteins instructor]

pictures of upper 50's some caught several times over????

certainly lends the type of credibility to your post that makes us side with you on this matter

now it's getting on my good boots

[Musk Rat]

I have seen the pics and interveiwed some of the anglers and guides involved. No i didn`t collect pictures of other peoples fish but i can just relate that some of the fish were tagged and others had distinguishing marks like one eye and most were caught in the same area. I also spoke with a guy named Frank who is know as firetiger Frank in his parts who claims to have cuaght the same 53" 12 times I never asked how he handled the fish but it is an amazing story none the less and a testament to the durability of these fish. I`m not saying we should not treat these fish with care as i said i do not use the vertical hold but i`m saying that we should be careful about our criticisms since the facts are at best scetchy. Calling everyone an idiot is not the answer im my mind.

[Me]

Now I remember why I left this board and will do so for good after this. Vertical holding fish. There is no scientific FACT either way, I think the more important issue is to keep the fish in the water and get it back into the water as soon as possible. That there is more important than how you hold the fish. I am also sick of the Muskie freaks and geeks here, MY GOD there a fish, and yes, I am a cpr person myself and want the fishery to only get better, but you people hound people for every stinking reason you can find. oh my he kept a muskie lets go ruin him, my god he is holding that fish wrong lets go ruin him. my god he doesnt have the right equipment lets go ruin him. LET IT GO, If you feel somebody is doing somthing wrong, you may want to teach them and if they are doing somthing legal like KEEPING A MUSKIE LEAVE THEM THE ##### ALONE. Its there right, and there choice so let them be. I always was taught to respect the resouce and it will help me, and I do but all you guys here are so greedy on what other people do, Why because all you thinking about is yourselves, SO stop being selfesh, you crazy *******s....


Me.

Im sure this will get pulled and I will be banned, but Muskie fishing attitudes are just getting crazy.

[wayne klemz]

Easy does it!!!"ME" Didn't your parents take time to give you a christian name? Remember it's only a fish!! ALSO if you don't like the program shut the thing off...Have a nice Day!! Wayne Klemz

[Shady]

Sure is a Purrttyyy fish.

Still a fish.

[historian]

Muskrat, you must have documented the first multiple catches of an upper 50's fish, and you talk about more than one? Boy that Ottawa River must be something. I suppose these people that have caught the same upper 50's fish more than once, several times?, don't want to be named do they? Those are long fish to hold off the ground and generally weigh more than 42 lbs. Funny it hasn't surfaced till now.
Amazing.

[Bobberhead]

Hey "Me", I think your Mommy is calling you....now you best run along.

And Mr. Rat.....yeah, right!! That's a good one!!! You funny!!!
Boss...the plane, the plane!! ha ha.

[Musk Rat]

Just cuz you can`t catch big fish doesn`t mean others can`t and yes i have pics. Had two fish over fifty in one day this fall pluss a49" and anouther over fifty lost not to mention a few others in the upper 40" class to boot and i do have pics. Marc Thorpe was my guide. I also witnessed an angler catch the same 57" Lary Ramesell caught a few weeks later lookin at the photo it is the same fish and if you look at Lary`s Hold it`s almost Vertical. Yes it is some fishery too bad you live where the small fish are.

[Musk Rat]

Don`t worry Boberhead you`ll get a big one someday.

[Musk Rat]

Oh by the way the guy who caught the same fish 12 times doesn`t fish the Ottawa. He is not a guide and doesn`t sell anything he was just a nice old guy who i happen to believe. Just cuz i haven`t recaptured the same fish a bunch of times doesn`t me he didn`t.

[Musk Rat]

The 57" i`m refering to was recaptured by a guy named Dan LeClair during a MC Derby and the pic is in the MC release Journal I had the oppertunity to look at a better pic and other people did too and many feel it`s the same fish Ramsell caught. Maybe it`s not but i think it is and this is testament to the fact that the fish was both released and measured properly.

[Musk Rat]

One more thing I mearly stated my opinion that there was some evidence that pointed in the direction that the vertical hold doesn`t necesarily kill the fish. I din`t submit a scientific thesus or state that what i was saying was absolut fact. Guy`s are on here stating that they hear a popping from a muskies spine others say thier buddy the taxidermist saw dammage. Thats scientific fact? I`m not calling them liars but it`s hardly hard eveidence. I ask you this if a fish person or anthing that has a spine has it damaged to any extent are they going to walk or swim away normal and then suffer effects later. What are we talkin about fish with sciatica. Like i said i treat these fish with the most possible care and i try not to hold them vertical. I just think we should suggest others do the same but not based on it will do this or that to the fish because it is far from proven.

[fishgraf]

settle down Bevis

[fishkopp]

Now lets be nice

[New World Dictionary]

musk rat
"A north american rodent(ondatra zibethica)living in water and having a glossy brown fur,a long,flattened tail,webbed hind feet,and a musklike odor."

I understand.I'm sorry.

[fishgraf]

i know musk rat and he definitly doesnt have fur!!! not sure about teh web feet but i know that when he is around there is a certain aroma but i cant quite fugure out what it is. i do know that musk rats can catch fish though and if you catch enough fish you learn the best way FOR YOU to hold the fish. different strokes for different folks. the bottom line is simple. THERE IS NO PROOF that holding a fish verticle hurts it, therefore it comes down to OPINIONS, and you know what they say about opinions.there like donkey holes, everyone has 1.

[Trophymuskie]

First of all there are no upper 50 inch fish in the Ottawa river. Secondly Ramsell's fish came from Northern Ontario and Mr Leclair was fishing a Montreal derdy and the fish is probably from the St-Lawrence river.

I am almost 100% sure that Marc or Mike have not caught a fish over 55 inches in the Ottawa River just like myself, come on Andy.

Yes C&R works and the same fish can be captured over and over. Let this one die.

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin
http://www.trophymuskiecharters.com

[historian]

OK now Richard you are saying what about Musk Rat's story? We need to know so we can get these "multiple upper 50's released multiple times" archived. Not very much of that going on, so you can see it is important from a historic standpoint. This thread would have died had not this incredible news about the uppper 50's releases come up.

I don't know if that smell is musk or the smell of something fishy.

[fishgraf]

hey rich why would you think that there are no upper 50 inchers in the Ottawa? i would bet that there is at least 1. what would be the reason they cant grow that big there? as far as "firetiger frank" the guy that told andy the story about catching the same fish over and over again, i was there when frank was telling the story. it wasnt from any of the waters mentioned here so far and im not about to tell everyone where frank fishes but he is an older gentleman and he was nice enough to give us a few tips on his local waters. rich you might even know him from MC. im glad this thread is going dso far because im bored of the winter already and i needed something to do.

chuck graf

[liar liar]

The Guy who had the 522 ranger for sale and the guy with him caught the same fish...... at the same time....... stop the lies!!!!!

[fishgraf]

im lost. what does that liar liar guy even mean? why doesnt he have a name?

[Darren]

Richard,Richard,you catch a lot of nice fish,and you may even be a nice guy-but to say there are NO upper 50 fish in the Ottawa is quite amazing.First we have all heard about Bill's multiple 60" catches,second have you seen the full page picture of Steve Heiting and that BIG FISH in Musky Hunter this month?Does that river look familiar?How about that ranger boat?Third,Dan Leclairs 57 incher came from 2 mtn which is only separated from the Ottawa by a dam.Same water.Just because you may not have nailed any over 54 or 55 in the O does not mean there are none.
Sighhhhhhh
Big D

[AWH]

Perhaps Richard is just trying to downplay the outstanding fishery he is on. Kind of like someone saying there are no muskies in a certain lake, even when most people know it's a great musky lake. Take his post tongue in cheek. Maybe he really believes it, maybe he doesn't. No need to get on him for what he said.

[Shady]

The Ottawa river must be a sewer.

[Darren]

Meaning??

[Musk Rat]

Let me clarify to me an upper 50" fish is over 52" and i should have said that and i never claimed to have proff Just that there is at least some annacdotal evidence pointing in the direction that large over fifty inch fish have been recaptured in many waters not just the Ottawa of coarse exaples are only a few becuase big fish are hard enough to catch once. I have heard enough stories and seen enough muskies handled myself to state my own donkey holed opinion that big fish don`t neccesarily die if you hold them vertical. If the fish were that fragil catch and release would never have had the impact it has.

[Jim McCullough]

Ok this one has pretty much run its course. I know who Muskrat is, and he is not a liar. Keep the personal attacks out of it guys.