Jeep retracts commercial!!

[Bobr]

Great job people! Here is a letter sent to a friend of mine from the people at DaimlerChrysler:

Thank you for your comments regarding our 30-second Jeep Grand Cherokeetelevision commercial. We value your opinion and appreciate your willingness to share it with us.

As you know, outdoor activities and communing with the environment are both basic to the DNA of the Jeep brand. That is why for many years Jeep has sponsored and supported a wide range of outdoor events and activities.

With this in mind, we created the spot to communicate the key attributes of Jeep - off-road capability, ruggedness, safety and security. Because of ourinnate involvement with nature and outdoor activities, we felt we could use the hunting analogy in a tongue-in-cheek way to highlight the "go anywhere, do anything" capability of Jeep vehicles.

Unfortunately, we did not anticipate this story line would evoke such
negative emotion among some viewers. That was never intended. We apologize if we inadvertently offended any individual or group. Obviously we underestimated the sensitivity of this issue.

Jeep, as the embodiment of the great outdoors, does not want to damage our relationship with any groups or individuals that love, appreciate and enjoy outdoor activities. Nor do we want to damage our relationship with our loyal customers or prospects who reside on either side of this issue. Therefore, because this is so emotionally charged, we will no longer continue this campaign.

Again, thank you for sharing your views with us. We hope this clarifies our position.

Respectfully,

The Jeep Brand
A Division of DaimlerChrysler Corporation

[Fish-on]

Doesn't sound like a retraction to me. It probably means they will not renew the ads after their present contracts are expired. Kinda vague.

[Al]

It's not a retraction, it's a "oops we got caught showing our true colors". Companies like them and Carhart, who has been involved with animal rights groups, and has ceased camo clothing production, only show their true colors with these actions. The only way you make people pay on this is in the wallet.

[Nick(Ia)]

Tell us about Carhart. I'd not heard this before

[s.f.]

contrary to other posts reaction, i think this is as good as jeep can do. this middle of the road stance is just good business, like it or not. as an example, a bar owner won't talk politics or religon with the customers. i think they said what any of the auto makers would say about the issue. in fact, they did apologize. so shut and fish...
#49

[Esox46]

I received the same reply from Jeep in response to the letter I sent them regarding their commercial. I am glad that they are withdrawing the ad (half the battle) but where is the public apology to Sportsmen now that the damage has been done? Failing this, I will settle for a televison commercial for one of their vehicles depicting the values and merits of hunters & sportsmen.

This what I told them in another letter sent today. If the latter does not happen, they still don't get my business. Its my choice as a consumer - they need me more than I need them. There are other choices!

Thanks again guys for all your great support. From my screen name above, I frequent the other board more, but as we are all Fishermen first, we are in this together.

Tony

[River_eye]

I've never seen so many people take a TV so seriously!! Especially the commercials. It's a frickin electric box that you plug into the wall. If you don't like the ad, don't buy the product, it's as simple as that. You guys really need to get out more.

Like a previous post said, shut up and fish!

[Al]

It goes back about 5 years ago. There was a lot of information going around on the web about it. From what I remember, it was pressure from Friends of the Animals and others like it. They dropped the camo line then. It wasn't because it didn't sell. I know of several stores that sold more camo than other colors in their sweatshirts.

In regards to it being good business. Doing the commercial in the first place is bad business, but only if people hold them to it. But based on my prior observations, the hunting and fishing communities will let them play the oops. It's not that they are good business and play both sides....they played one side (Dodge did) and got nailed. You can say what you want, but if someone doesn't hold their feet to the fire on this stuff, you'll have more and more of it. Then it will be us and the small manf. and small tackle guys against the big corps. It's pretty evident who will be dictating then.

[Water Dog]

Go to the following web sites:
animalliberationfront.com
guerrillanews.com
peta.com
The anti's want to stop ALL fishing and hunting .
It all starts with convincing the dumb non-sporting public that YOU and I , River eye should not be able to fish or hunt .
The anti's are not stupid , just driven to a anti-establishment agenda and will stop at nothing to promote it .
The (Political Correctness) crowd undermines fishing and hunting by pressuring business leaders via e-mails and letters .
Why should sportsmen not defend and promote our lifestyles as well .
Not trying to bump anyones nose , just trying to defend my childrens legal right to fish and hunt .
Water Dog

[s-bone]

River eye, it is a box that companies spend millions and millions of dollars on to show products, concepts, ideas, and influence people and they do it because it WORKS! I can not only not buy their products I can also let them know how I feel, so unlike you I choose not to just sit on my hands. Fish and Don't Shut Up

[heavyc]

I think the real problem is they don't need any of us that bad. In all reality, we don't make up that big of a demographic of their sales. Sure outdoorsman as a whole are a pretty substantial group, but how many of us are not going to buy the product because of this? I don't think we are being any better than PETA to be honest. All of this complaining and crying over a 30 second commercial is just the kind of *****ing and moaning which the animal rights groups do. And that bothers everyone as well. All I'm saying is think twice next time you cry about some "tree hugger" trying to petition or protest something they think is wrong. Its their right too.....

[River_eye]

hmm.... I see.

It seems that you guys do have somthing to worry about. That sucks. Glad we don't have that problem up here.

[bigfish1965]

In keeping with the anti fear... I say to my American friends, get your gov't to do what ours just did. Entrench hunting and fishing as Constitutional rights. It is now ours forever, PETA be dammed.

[Nate W.]

River Eye--You don't have that problem? Think again--what happened to your Ontario spring bear hunt? That didn't have anything to do with wildlife management it was an issue driven 100% by animal-rights lies. Chances are good they've already set their sights on something else. Bear baiting? Bowhunting? Mink Farms? Trapping? WALLEYE FISHING?

[tj1n]

"Shut up and Fish!" This statement is one that will drive our love/business into the ground. If any business didn't fight for their rights, they'd be done. It's called "Marketing" ~ The strongest marketers prevail and are allowed to service their campaigns. Chrysler has definitely listened to the other side, therefore they should hear about it from everyone and this "retraction" letter is far from an apology to our sector.

Telling us to shut up about fighting for the GREAT OUTDOORS is insane. I hope more of us take a serious stance against this and don't buy any products from these companies - Carhart or Chrysler! Yes it will effect them. We are a large group if we communicate strongly. If you think PETA is sitting on their feet and shutting up about their desires then you've succomb to their protests. If JEEP supports PETA, I don't support them!

Travis J.

[River_eye]

Well, we still have the spring and fall bear hunts here in Manitoba, but you're right, it might not be around much longer. Although I don't see much sport in the bear hunts up here, so I wouldn't miss it.
They just recently outlawed penned hunt farms which I also have no problem with.

As for walleye fishing. I live on the edge of civilization, I've been stopped by the CO's once in my life and have seen them only a few times more. Banning walleye fishing isn't an issue right now and won't be for a long time. I guess I could choose to be paranoid about it, but then I'd have to be paranoid about a bunch of other things in my life right now too.

Most of us up here fish in 14-16' aluminum boats with bench's and 20's or 30's on them. Pull up to a spot, throw the anchor or drift and not expect to see another boat for a few hours. It's really a different world here.

Also, paranoia equals stress, and I fish for walleyes relieve stress, so it doesn't make sense for me to worry about such a thing right now.

[River_eye]

Nobody's saying that you shouldn't fight for what you believe in. Shut up and do somthing about it, would be a better phrase. Worrying and complaining doesn't do anything, but getting off the couch or away from the computer and starting a lobbying group or at least reading up on the subject is what should be happening. After you have hard information that says that your sport is in trouble is when you should be making yourself heard.

[Fish-on]

Good thing we don't all have this head-in-the-sand selfish attitude. We wouldn't have any sporting privileges left already.

[Ray]

I don't understand your attitude Who is trying to take your sporting priviliges away. I have been living in this country for almost 50 yeas now. And nobody has tried to take away my guns and fishing rods.I think all you people that feel these anti sporting groups are trying to take your sporting rights away. I think you are all screwed up in the head. Go out enjoy your life and your sport and pay no attention to all this crap you have been reading. When the day comes when somebody is trying to take away something from me that is doing no harm to people that like the outdoor life they better know what they are doing. Ray

[WAeyes]

RiverEye, you got to look at the big picture man. Although you do not hunt bear, other people do, and they might do it for the same reason that you fish walleye. Today they outlaw the bear hunt and tomorrow it is something else until they outlaw something that you enjoy. In WA State they outlawed hunting cougars with dogs. Now we have a serious cougar over population and they are attacking pets, farm animals and even worse kids! Look at the BIG picture man!

[Ray]

Go out enjoy your sport take life as it comes hold your head high be glad your living in the great country your living in now. Everybody has some kind of stress to deal with.Fishing is a great way to releive that stress and the most inportant thing of all if you have to say something say it. Tell it the way it is good luck. Ray

[ChrisNE]

"Nobody's saying that you shouldn't fight for what you believe in"

You did! You said stop complaining, then shut up and fish.

"Shut up and do somthing about it, would be a better phrase."

I agree

"Worrying and complaining doesn't do anything, but getting off the couch or away from the computer and starting a lobbying group or at least reading up on the subject is what should be happening"

Last time I checked, lobby groups were just an organized bunch of complainers. Complaining gets votes. Votes get privileges. I and many others have been informed about corporate policy right here on walleye central. Computers aren't a bad way to conduct research.

"After you have hard information that says that your sport is in trouble is when you should be making yourself heard."

The hard information, my friend, is staring you right in the face. I'm not paranoid, just realistic. It's a sign of the times. Deruralization means more people move to and grow up in the City. Parents working long hours means less time for the kids and fishing. In time, the sportsmen and women will become a smaller percentage of the total population and our voices (complaining voices!!) will be smaller.

Your right. In my lifetime, I probably won't need to worry about not being able to fish and hunt. I wouldn't bet on it with my son. That's why I complain.

Do you have kids Mr. River eye?

Hope things stay perfect in your perfect world.

[River_eye]

Cheers Ray. You and I will lead long rich lives.

Your hobbies should not bring you stress, and if they do, they aren't your hobbies anymore, they are work, plain and simple. Don't get me wrong, it's good to protect somthing you like if it's in danger, but it has to be in danger first.

Take it easy man.

[River_eye]

Head in the sand, eh? That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while.

Let me remind you that we live in two different angling cultures, you will never understand how we fish and why we fish up here until you live it. Up here, you don't see the 225's on the rangers and pro-v's and whatever, you don't see the lineups at boatramps, you don't see the brandnames and the sponsors everywhere, plain and simple.

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. I do understand why you would be worried, and I would be worried too if it was like that up here, but it's not. Maybe you need to take your head out of the sand and realize what good angling is really about, and it may just help you to conserve the sport down there.

It's not about big flashy boats, it's not about screaming across the lake at 50+ mph and it's not about having 10 g-loomis rods in your storage locker next to your aquaview and worrying about whether your x-85 on the bow is interfering with your console garmin 240, or worrying why there is a difference in indicated speed between your gps and your gages.

That my friend is why you have to worry about your sport being outlawed and we do not. The secret is keeping a low profile.

[River_eye]

See my above post, it's directed at you too.

I do see the big picture, and that is, the bigger somthing gets, the louder it gets, the more it is open to criticism and attack. The Ontario bear hunt did get too big, too much money involved, the numbers were increasing too rapidly, so people got scared of it and felt that it needed to be stopped for whatever reason.

Nobody notices me floating around in my dads little lund s-14 with a 1979 20 Johnson. Therefore nobody has a problem with it. Like my above post said, keep it simple, lower your profile, it will purify your experience and keep the sport safe.

If you keep it the way it is down there, your hair will forever be turning grey worrying about whether sombody wants to stop you or not. Sure, high profile luxurious boats are nice, but you can't own one and have complete peace of mind at the same time.

This isn't a criticism of the way you're doing things, just some words of wisdom to help you preserve what we both love.

[River_eye]

Complaining is not acting. I'm for acting but not complaining.
Lobbying groups don't just complain, they get things done and complain on the side.

I'm just trying to explain to you some of Canada's philosophies on fishing. All I'm saying is that the way we do things, works for us, and therefore we don't need to worry about our fishing rights, or our childrens fishing rights. You guys think everything up here is just the same as down there, but it's not, and unfortunately 250 million of you will never understand this.

You are trying to tell me that I have somthing to worry about in my country just because you have to worry about it in your country? How narrow minded a view is that?

Unless you can say that you know somthing about my country, you probably will never understand what I'm talking about.

[Tom P]

They are sllllooooooowwwwlllyyyy going to take away our rights to fish and use the internal combustion engine on lakes and rivers. People like Ray are totally clueless. It will take 30 years, but they can wait. It is their religion. You fishing guys are too busy making money and fishing to care as "they" slowly convince their left wing Rep. and Senators that there should not be people flying 60+ MPH down a lake or river pumping all that oil and noise into "our" NO "THEIR" environment. These wacos in the thousands, have full time jobs in these organizations trying to take this stuff away from you and I. SSSSllllloooowwwwllllyyy, so you don't notice. like no snowmobiling in state parks, no 2 strokes ( watch you will see them ban the DFI 2 stroke motors too, give them time. Remember, their name is 2 stroke and that is a symbol that they hate) 1998 and later outboards you can't even change a heat range of sparkplug, it's a felony $ 2,000 a day fine for any modification of any kind. Too may people like Ray around. I think it is great that they pulled that ad. Good work guys! See I was too busy making money to even care about this issue, shame on me! I should of been right there writing and e-mailing with you. Sorry!

[WAeyes]

Nobody notices me standing alone in the dark catching fish...but that doesn't mean I fish with my eyes closed. If we all wait until the problem affects the few people on the edge of civilization, the problem will be too big and too late to fix.

[Fish-on]

You must be living in a cave, man. That's the only way I can explain what you are saying. Unbelievable.

[Ray]

man you are living in fear.

[Ray]

Man, You are another one living in fear.I don't understand you one bit. What are you worring about. 30 years from now the next generation will shape the world like they want it to be.You will have nothing to say we will be long gone.My advise to you is to worry about today and let tomorrow come. There is no way you are going to straighten this world out. The peoples morals and brains are dead. And if they had any kind of faith they could straighten there problems out. I go out and enjoy my self and you think I am going to worry about some stupid comercial with a jeep you got something coming man.I think this whole thing is totaly stupid and anybody with and imagination could figure it out. Ray

[Tom S.]

Sounds like Ray must belong to PETA or HSUS!

[Andy]

I have a hard time understanding this "low profile concept" that is playing right into the hands of the people who oppose fishing and hunting. You have access to the internet, look at some of the stunts the anti's pull to call attention to their beliefs. Go to the PETA site or read about how to perform raids under the direction of the ALF. These groups are as radical as they come. Why sit back and let them take away what you and I enjoy. I'm sure if we all take the laid back approach it will not take them 30 years to get what they want done. They have BIG money and much of the media behind them. Go ahead and relax I will too, when I'm fishing or hunting, but I will always keep my eyes open along with my ears to stay alert to what these groups are up to.
Maybe we should all fish like their is no tommorow because these groups do not want us to have any tommorows.

[Hunter]

We dont have it up here? What about the 1300 acres I bow/gun hunted for the last 12 years, I go up last year, a sign says conservation area no hunting, no tresspassing. Thats why its a conservation area for the people to use it! Its not a refuge!!

What about the river I duck hunted in for the last 15yrs, mnr officer told me this year to round up the troops, anti's want it closed, along with all the hunting seasons in the county im in. And he said they are going after 2 surrounding counties next.

What about the people who drove onto the private property I was hunting openning day of gun deer season on Manitoulin island. At 8:30 in the morning they drove through a couple pastures and around the cabin. When stopped, they said they were looking at buying the property and didnt know deer season had started. How stupid do they think I am? Property is not for sale! The island has 10-12,000 people that live on it, and they get that many hunters for a week! They know ##### well when hunting season is!!!

These people even called mnr tips-line several times and said, people were hunting the property illegally, we were visitted 4 times in 5 days by the mnr. Do you think we were being harassed? I SURE DO! And so did the mnr officer! he even said if the phone number didnt come back to a pay phone, he would have vistted them!

Sorry if it sounds like im ranting! but im pi$$ed right off, im sick of my fellow Canadians sitting back and saying its not here, when it is! And if we continue to sit back and let people walk all over us, we will have nothing!! And before we have nothing, ill move over to the states, where people standup for themselves and what is right!!!!

[Hunter]

Bigfish

I think something happened to that bill. I think someone decided against it the day before they went out for Christmas holidays!

[Fish-on]

I'm living in reality along with 99.999% of the rest of the world. Won't you join us?

[Drinkin strait out the crick?]

Well, I can see how you have it, and have it good. I do envy your fishing experience.
However, I need to point out, that the MAJORITY of the anglers here do not have the Rangers with the 225 on them. A few do, but not all. Also, every American does not have the sponsor badging etc you allude to. Fact is, other than where you are sitting in your boat, you are no different than the vast majority who fish.
However, you are part of a world community now, like it or not. One brick at a time is how the Berlin wall came down. One brick at a time is how the antis will try and end all hunting fishing etc. Heck they are even against the zoo and the circus!!
Canada has seen to make all register their guns or become a criminal. England and Australia did the same thing. Then they incremented a ban on certain guns, That should also sound familiar to the US, Canadian, Australian and British gun owners. Then they took them all. Mark my words Canada, unless every gun owner gets involved, legally, you are next. What does thjis have to do with fishing? Everything. When hunting and guns and zoos and circuses are gone, fishing is next! Theybare attacking all these things. And oh, by the way, you are on their hit list BIG TIME!!! You are motoring around the pristine wilderness polluting it with your eveil 2 cycle outboard!
AS to the bear hunting issue above, your head is in the sand and you are selfish. You dont hunt bear,or like the way it is done so you dont care. You are selfish and ignorant of the truth. Just because you dont care for something that is being banned, doesnt mean it is okay to let it go away.
Antis will NEVER stop. They are out to make sure that you and I see things their way, or we should be put in a hole somewhere. Thank God I do live in the USA where more sportsmen dont have your selfish attitude.

[JohnF]

I believe you have something to worry about because you don't believe it can happen to you.

Zealots do not care how big your boat is.
They do not care how much money you have spent.
They do not care that you have an army.

They only care about their ideology.

There is someone in Canada that thinks fishing is bad. This person will try to stop it. It is that simple. He/She may form a coalition of like minded people, or shoot fishermen, or write nasty editorials in a national newspaper. This person will choose the morality and rules of engagement that he/she will play by. Politics can be one choice.

Politics is a means to an end. A peaceful (relative) front for societies battles. You can win here if you can convince a majority that your ideology is right; After all, some ideologies should be protected because they are right. Some win, some lose.

If you choose to believe that your rights to fish are not in danger, then that's alright with me. You are telling me that you trust me and those like me that will speak up to preserve your ideology. This makes us smile. But please consider that, even in Canada, there is a person fighting the political battle to preserve the rights that you value, and that this person may need you to someday speak up when role is taken. Don't be afraid to bellow "Here!". Not doing so makes us frown.

You can argue about the media choices people make, spending habits, boat colors, stress relief activities, life expectancy, and so forth and maybe not quite realize that you've taken part in a political movement. Arguing is one means of trying to influencing opinion. Opinion of the majority influences state policy. (in certain political systems) So you know one mechanism.

You may not be aware of the power of erosion. It can create canyons, wash away hills, and take away your freedoms. Mostly I viewed your rantings and arguments as comments from a bored individual looking for a little world wide amusement. But one comment, "Although I don't see much sport in the bear hunts up here, so I wouldn't miss it." whether you really meant it or not gives me concern. Seeing such an apparently apathetic attitude displayed in any medium, well, that makes us cry.

Bears today, fish tomorrow.

John "A little wordy today" Flaherty

[Esox46]

Ray,

Are you really a Sportsman??? If you are you certainly don't have any children as you have such a self-centered live for the moment metality. Sounds like a page out of the '70's "me generation" play book!

With PETA taking aim at our children and trying to convince them fishing and hunting is bad, I feel sorry for those that are interested in our sports 30 years from now. They will have a very tough battle trying to hold onto their freedoms to enjoy fishing as hunting as we do now.

I am honored to be part of the majority on this board that does not want to hand your kind of legacy Ray, onto our kids.

Now, if your really a Sportsman, you'll have to think seriously about what I'm saying. Dismiss it as tripe and you've shown your true colors!

Tony

[Fish-on]

Beautiful post, John. I'm glad to be on the same team with people like you.

[Ray]

you need help.

[Ray]

whats wrong cant take the pressure. maybe you need to see a doctor. you are losing it man.

[Fishingdog]

First of all, it is of no value to sit and bash someone personally such as River_eye or Ray and call them idiots only because they do not feel threatened by what is happening. Ray has shown his beliefs over and over on this site and his remarks do not suprise me. He obviously is someone that sides with the mentality of the liberal left side that feels everything that humans do is wrong unless it does not rustle a leaf or turn a pebble of sand. He is consistent with his views and I can respect him for that.

That being said, I completely disagree with him on his philosophy. Humans have made technology that sometimes disrupts nature but every time it has happened, legislation has been put in place to correct or help fix it. It takes people from both sides of the spectrum to create a balance. When something leans too far to one side, it takes a reaction to "right the ship." That is why something must be done. Remember, we ARE part of nature. That means what we do IS nature which is no different than a trout that eats a fly off the top of the water. Conservation has been in place long enough to prove that it works when the right attention is given to it and this is all part of the process. We must not let this mentality envelop society or we will be without priveledges to hunt and YES FISH! My kids are outdoorsman and I want to see their grandkids do it as well.

[River_eye]

Sorry, I can't place much value in your anonymous post. You could be a 16 y/o sh*t disturber who doesn't even fish for walleyes for all I know.

[River_eye]

Okay, you've got my attention. What, in your opinion would be the best way to save all of us (but first you guys), from the antis? If you think it's inevitable that fishing will be banned, than I think you should just relax and enjoy it while it lasts, if you do think that somthing can be done, I'd like to hear it.

I don't want to suggest that I know the definate solution to your problems, because even though I know more about your country than you probably know about mine (correct me if I'm wrong), I don't live there, so I won't be able to truly understand the problem as good as you. I can only tell you what has worked for us.

[Esox46]

Remember what I said about your true colors, Ray.

Thanks for confirming what I thought. Tell me, ever even try to catch a fish in your whole life?

Tony

[River_eye]

Well, I may not be the wisest man in the world, but I do consider myself wiser than you because I can debate a topic without losing my temper and calling people names. I may have done that at one time, but I think I was in grade 9 or 10 at the time.

I also don't hide behind anonymous names. I welcome you to question my views and please e-mail me if you feel like discussing anything.

The reason for my confidence is not because I ignore the anti-groups, but because I read their literature with great interest. People get scared because they don't know enough about somthing, which might be the case for you. I read about them, I understand their tactics, why they work and I understand what can be done to combat them. Right now, they don't pose a threat to my way of living (which isn't necessarily the same as yours). If they do get to that point, then I will act, until then, may as well relax and save myself from an ulcer or two.

[River_eye]

We all need to rant once and a while.

What can I say? The world is changing. I can't say what is right and what is wrong. Maybe you would find a better home in the US, a lot of Canadians do, including some relatives of mine.

I don't hunt myself, not that I think it's wrong or anything, so I don't have much to say on the issue. My comments were more directed to the walleye fishing part of it. Although a lot of people like to group it all into the sportsman category, I don't.

I would like to learn to hunt, not for sport, but for wilderness survival purposes, so you can bet that if I'm in the bush and starving for food, I'm not going to let a few rules come between me and surviving. I wouldn't be interested in eating bear though.

[River_eye]

Don't you mean my un-apathetic attitude? You may have caught me on that one.

If you're looking for purpose in my arguments, let me tell you that I like debate, and I like conversations about serious issues that affect all of us. I don't like to piss people off, although somtimes it's impossible to avoid. I challenge you to prove me wrong, or at least change a few of my views. If you do, I won't get mad, because I will have learned somthing that I didn't know before, and I see that as a good thing. I debate the issue because eventually, it will end up in a better understanding of the subject for both of us, no matter who's right and who's ideology is taken down a notch. If you rant about somthing, and I say you're right, that still doesn't help the situation.

I aggree with you for the most part. It doesn't matter what's right or wrong, it's what's popular, as with any democracy. As soon as the majority of people in the continent, beleive that fishing is wrong, then it will be banned. It's a scary thought, and when people get scared, we all know what happens, we run around like chickens with our heads cut off. I think the first step to finding the best solution to a problem is to understand what you're up against, only then can you fight it.

It just makes me mad when people get all mad and start running around saying "we're right, you're wrong". People have gotta understand that instead we have to learn to tolerate others views and start saying,"I disaggree with you, but here's what I think we should do that is best for all of us".

Debate is good, as long as you are willing to learn somthing from it.

[River_eye]

Fish-on, now I don't think you were expecting this, but John's post was probably the most well thought out post I've heard so far, so I respect him for that. Knowledge and the ability to communicate it is power.

Read my response to him.

[Ray]

you need help.

[ray]

your lost, go find a new hobby

[Ray]

I think your post is one of the most intelligent ones around on this topic. Where do you get your mentality that I am some liberal. You are dead wrong. I listen to both sides of the story. One never rules you classify people as liberals if they don't agree with you. I know where you are coming from and you know where I am coming from. And you are correct I am very consistant and I am also very open minded. I have my own views and you have yours. The problem on this walleye central board is everybody has to talk the same language and if the guy gets out of line they tear them apart. I like to debate but I have to be careful on who I talk to on these boards because people are not open minded. Ray

[Water Dog]

Lake Erie is now the Walleye Capital in the Midwest because fisherman DEMANDED THAT IT BE CLEANED UP .
Lake Michigan today is a great Salmon fishery because SPORTSMEN GROUPS MADE IT SO .
This is factual history and not just someones opinion .
Sitting in a boat just fishing with a low political profile does not alter history .
Saying (Oh well , what ever happens ; I can not change anything .) is extreme naivete .
This is a open invation to Ray and Rivereye . If you ever visit the USA , you are welcome to fish with me in the Great Lakes to see what has been accomplished , BECAUSE WE CARED !
If we fish in boats bigger than 16 ft it is because of the extreme water conditions and water miles we travel .
Not because we think we are better than anyone else .
I would love to walleye fish in a glacier lake with maybe one other small boat . Lake Erie is just not like that .
Some days you can count over 200 boats on the waters around you on Erie or Lake Michigan .
If someone calls MAYDAY on the radio ; we cut our lines and beat down the waves to offer assistance to our fellow Sportsmen .
Something I fear you do not understand .
Water Dog
Stand together as sportsmen or die .

[outdoor fanatic]

I have a hard time believing that anyone that claims to be an outdoorsman is willing to take the chance that they can just sit with a low profile and expect everything to be the same. I would think that if you were ever faced with the reality of never being able to enjoy your sport, you would want to do something about it. As for me, it's simple. I would much rather tackle a runaway snowball when it's the size of a golf ball than to have to try and tackle it when it's the size of a house. I'm going to make a statement and I certainly don't want to seem to overdramatize the situation, but there was a time when people thought Hitler wouldn't amount to much, but when left to his own devices, we all know what happened. I'm not saying that the two are comparable, but how much better would the world have been if he had been taken care of before he got so big? I certainly don't want to offend anyone, but it's the brave person who will stand and fight for what he believes in. If you don't want to fight, then stand on the sidelines. If you lose your sport, you've got no one to blame but yourself. If you don't lose your sport, you'll be able to thank the person who worked to preserve your right. But please, don't do yourself a disservice by thinking it can happen. I've personally been harrassed while I was legally hunting moose in North Dakota and I can tell you that it was a Canadian who harrassed me. If it can happen in North Dakota with a population of 600,000 people, it can happen anywhere.

[Nothingfishy]

HEY!! PETA
SAVE A TREE...EAT A BEAVER!!!

To bad the damage is done, I will NOT buy any DaimlerChyrsler products.

[WAeyes]

Where in my post did I lose my temper and call you names??? You are way out man...like in left field...ultra left field...extreme left field...on the edge of civilization left field. Yes, now I have lost my temper. Do you sympathize with Bin Laden too?

[Ray]

I agree, excellent post. You told the truth. Ray

[Ray]

Man you are sick. Why are you trying to pick somebody apart when he is standing up and fighting for what he be leaves in. I think you're from Ben laden camp. Ray

[bob oh]

You're just not getting it, once the hunting is done -- you're next!!! If you can't see that you need to study history a little -- whoever gets public opinion on their side wins, period...

[Fishingdog]

Ray,
I am not sure if my comments were clear. I am not always good about presenting a point and in no way intended to offend you. My main point was that we disagree on the philosophy of how to handle the subject and that I respect you for your opinion. Healthy discussions teach us all as River_eye mentioned on an earlier post.

[Hunter]

Bob'oh thats exactly what im saying. There was a meeting several months ago, people wanted to push duck hunter's 200 yards off shore, and close down a large area to hunting on lake st.claire(the area has been hunted 150 years). The people trying to close it down said someone was going to get shot, hasnt happened in the 15 yrs ive been hunting out there, why is it going to happen now?

But the funny thing is a hunter asked what these people thought of the bass fisherman that come along and toss jigs under theyre docks. One homeowner stood up and said they should have to be made to stay 100 yards from theyre property and docks. Several others applauded this! How much more would it take to get these people to say we dont want any activities at all, these lands are for me to birdwatch, yacht and run my personal watercraft on!

[Eric_WI]

Gentlemen,
Guys like "Ray" that visit these message boards and write absurdities like that are obviously somehow affiliated with one of the anti hunting or fishing organizations. The best thing to do is just ignore them.

Also, be careful which organizations you support. I'll bet some of you didn't realize that the Humane Society of the United States supports anti-hunting efforts. Don't believe me? Take a look at the following article written in typical anti-hunting bleeding heart fashion:

http://www.hsus.org/news/082901a.html

Good fishing and stay aware of your rights and the people who are trying to take them away.

Eric

[Fish-on]

HSUS is the largest anti-hunting organization the the world. It's taken a long tie for most sportsmen to catch on, but it is pretty common knowledge now. I don't think that Ray is an anti, he's simply afraid to admit that there's danger. By remainig in denial he remains safe in his own mind, which is as far as he'll ever get.

[Ray]

Fish on you are correct. I am no anti-hunter, or fisher. Also, i dont belong to any anti-radical groups that want to take away our sporting priviledges. Im glad we can finally see eye to eye on something. The problem that we cant see, I dont know what the heck you guys are screaming about, whos taking away your rights when they are trying to promote hunting and fishing all across the u.s. Its got to be that we have some radical group in this country that are fighting among themselves, that dont know what the heck they are doing. both peta and other sportsmans that dont like peta. Peta is nothing but cancer that was created by society. Ive have one run-in with Peta 10 years back, and the best way to deal with them is to ignore them. Peta loves people that wants to fight them. This makes them stronger and more come out of the wood work. Guys like myself and rivereye, we will survive because we know how to deal with these kind of radical people. I live in the eastern part of the us, and we dont have all this talk you guys are talking about anti-sportsman groups trying to take your rights away. it must be the people out west that look at life alittle different. People back in the east are different than the people in the south and west, and vice versa for the rest too. Thats what makes the u.s. a great country. Ray

[River_eye]

WAeyes, I guess I should be putting names at the top of my posts.

The post that I accused sombody of name calling was not a reply to one of your posts. It was a reply to sombody who was calling me names, and the post has since been removed by the moderator. Unfortunately it appears as if I was replying to you. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[River_eye]

Outdoor fanatic, I understand that if your sport is in trouble that in order to have any respect for yourself, you would have to try and preserve it.

Now, that said, how far are you willing to go to preserve your sport? What are you willing to sacrafice? Would you be willing to go back to small boats and low emmissions or even electric motors just so you could fish? Do you love it that much?

Right now, everybody is fighting for growth, fishing is one of them. More, bigger boats, more rods, more consumerism in general. Being that we're all on the same planet, we can't all grow without sombody being squeezed out.

Fishing will have a place for a long time, but as we know it, probably not. What I'm saying is, there's no use fighting if it's a losing battle. Instead, adapt and sacrafice. Somehow, I don't think most of you are willing to do this.

[River_eye]

Ray, I appreciate your support, but unfortunately I can't support your posts when they don't add any useful information, like "you're losing it man" or somthing. That's a sure way to lose credibility on this board. You have to try to keep your cool and keep it civilized.

[River_eye]

Tom P. Somthing interesting that nobody has pointed out yet.

In previous discussions, I was stating my concern for the environment and trying to convince people that we do have somthing to worry about. Then they're all telling me, don't worry, everything will be okay, it always works out in the end. They tell me that my fears of us ruining the environment are not well founded and I'm sounding a false alarm.

Now, everybody says that we have to worry about losing our fishing privilidges and that we better fight to be safe rather than sorry. And I'm saying that we don't have anything to worry about.

Do you see any similarities?

[Tom P]

---------------NOPE!------------- Mother nature is totally different then the radical left. Mother nature can heal herself. The radical left just takes, manipulates, and tries to control other peoples actions that do not conform to their bend veiwpoint. Like the banning of snowmobiles in state forests. Don't ban them. Make them run bio-oil, real quiet mufflers and or 4 strokes. Then there is that digging up dirt from the snowmobiles track thing they wine about. A little dirt dug up is going to hurt nothing. Bears do more damage to Mother's forest floor then any snowmobile does. I have never owned a snowmobile. It is just a great example of how the left is taking control and only some can see it. It's all about "Control" What do they call that, when a "group" wants to dictate what you do , how you do it, when and IF you can do it. Or just throw you in jail and fine you $ 2,000 a day if you change a heat range of a spark plug on your outboard motor??? I would love to hear from some of you on what you call a "group" like that?

[Al]

I'm going to give you a good example of why you should be vigilant on these things. You say they've never tried to take your guns. Let me let you in on something. When the original draft of the assault weapons ban came out, there was a very popular sporting arm on the list. Maybe you've heard of it. In fact, a big proponent of the "assault" weapons ban even has his picture with one. It's that old loveable hillbilly Bill Clinton. Pictured after a "duck hunt" at one of his buddies estates in Arkansas. The gun he had? A Benelli Super Black Eagle. It was on the orignal draft for the ban. Why? Because someone could put the mag extension on it, put pistol grip/riot type equipment on it and it would be "Evil". In case you don't know it, that's probably the hottest selling waterfowl gun going,and it may be for a long time. Now, just how many times have you read about the boys knocking off the 7-11 with a duck gun? It doesn't happen. The fact of the matter is, folks like Willy, Chuck, Diane F., and others, who want to impose their views on you, have not a ****ed clue what they are talking about...and that my friend is why we should be vigilant not only for the rights and priveledges we hold dear, but also other sportsmen. I'm not suprised that our Canadian friend is so passive. Lots of folks in Germany said...it doesn't effect me...when Hitler got rolling.

[Al]

Mother Nature is a big girl and has a history of doing well taking care of things. Politicians on the other hand have a history of screwing up a lot of things...no matter if you are US or Canada. I have much more faith in the balance of nature, than I do in what some feel good politician has up his sleeve.

[Water Dog]

20 Miles from shore in 6 ft waves and howling North West wind . How far Rivereye are you going to get in your electric powered small boat?
Because you have never fished Lake Erie or Lake Michigan you seem to forget all fisherman can not fish like you do in small boats .
We do not have a democracy rule . It is a representative republic .
That means we elect leaders to make and enforce laws ; and sometimes we can as sportsmen use our political muscle to clean up the environment as we did with the Great Lakes .
You may choose to not clean up your lakes ,as a do nothing but fish attitude would lead to ; but DO NOT COMPLAIN WHEN AND HOW WE DO !
And if fighting the anti's by flexing our political muscle offends you .
SHUT UP AND FISH RIVEREYE !
Waterdog
Stand Together As Sportsmen Or Die

[JohnF]

Hi Ray,

You mention that your are not a hunter or a fisherman. Welcome to the discussion. You are my target audience. Let me explain:

You may be a zealot of some ideology I disagree with. I know I can't change your mind, but strategically I need to let you know I am here, watching, countering, and waiting for you to logically slip up so I can better educate the groups I will describe next.

You may be a radical against me. This may appear the same at first, in fact I can't really tell early on, so I better be on my toes. When we discuss an issue objectively, and apply logic, I may be able to move you towards me, and vice versa. I know this, you know this, and this is what discussion is all about.

You may be soft against me or slightly on my side. Then it is my duty to educate you about my beliefs. Doing so may put you with me or clear my thinking and put me with you, but for sure it forces me to look at my own position and validate it. The more questions asked/answered the better. Of course I start out believing I'm right and hoping you buddy up with me. ;)

I admit I have pigeonholed you into one of these groups because you have asked me a question one of my camp mates wouldn't have; I.e., why the worry. I feel pretty comfortable assuming you are in the third group because of some comments made involving PETA.

There's my slant, so here goes...

The really deep answer: Everything you value is under attack. Not necessarily in a radical way, but things are always changing. In fact, you are doing it to yourself right now. Sometimes we worry because we simply need to validate ourselves. Discussion amongst peers is one way to clear up cobwebs.

The simple answer: Some folks are having the things they value discussed in a political/legal arena in which a decision is being made. They are being called to the mat. It is important that they stand up and teach/learn/be heard.

So we must worry.

Now when I say worry I do not mean go out and give yourself an ulcer. Most people don't do that and I feel all uf us here are looking pretty positive on the survival scale. I'm talking about being aware, educate people on how you feel, listen to how others feel, and always remember that not one of us will be on this earth all that long. Worry is a word that is a bit over used in these types of discussions.

You did touch a cord with me Ray. I am not sure if the last part of your post is just some open thought wondering if it is a western (USA) cultural trend that is developing this anti-hunting/fishing sentiment or if you are removing yourself from an issue geographically. I am assuming that you live in the USA given your comments by the way.

The antis, as they are called, are everywhere.

PLEASE (I don't always use all caps!) Remember that you are one of us. We live in a Federation. consider that if an issue you value is decided in a state half way across the country in a way you feel is radically against your beliefs, you may have to deal with it federally. The antis do not see hunting and fishing as an issue that is wrong only in their state, only that the state is a stepping stone to the country.

Really, I'm not trying to sound like an alarmist. Just asking that you pay heed to my issues and I promise to listen to yours...

John

[River_eye]

Mother nature takes care of herself, very true. That's been established. I hate to repeat myself, but she doesn't take care of us. My arguments haven't been for the sake of other living things, so much as our kids ability to live in a clean, habitible environment.

Anyways, we don't want to get into that one again.

I've been accused of having my head in the sand, and not paying attention to reality. I've also been told that it's better to act now when our problems are just the size of a snowball, rather than later when the snowball is the size of a house. Very good points, don't you aggree?

Now, how much reading have you really done on the ecological issues that affect us? If not very much, then you can't really have a valid opinion on the issue, can you? I think that would be called having your head in the sand.

I bring this up because I think this affects the future of fishing just as much as the activist groups do.

[JohnF]

Hi River_eye,

Actually, you are saying something when you say you don't have much to say. You place yourself in the middle. And that's ok. Really. We all have issues that, even with serious thought, we can't judge one way or the other.

Here is what you can do on this issue. Ask some logical questions:

What are the arguments of the two sides?
How can these arguments be applied to the issues I hold dear?
What are the Pros/Cons?
Where should I stand?

If I told you that the main argument against hunting is that it is cruel to animals and concensus was swayed to believe it, that you believe fishing would not be attacked?

I don't think I want to eat bear either...

John

[River_eye]

I think your desire to prove me wrong has overcome your good sense.

If you need a big boat to fish on Lake Erie, then you need a big boat. If the only reason you have a big boat is because it wouldn't work any other way, then my hat is off to you.

I'm talking more about the 90% of people who drive big boats for reasons other than big waves. They may say that it's for safety, or for this or for that, but the big reason that nobody mentions is that everybody is always trying to outdo each other. The mentality that says bigger and faster is better, period.

I'm just wondering whether half of these guys would still be fishing if the biggest boat they were allowed to drive around in was just big enough for the lake.

[JohnF]

Sure, I can see your point. You have a concern, they (generic, not directed at anyone) don't see your alarm. They have an issue and you don't see theirs.

How well did you educate them on your issues?
How well did you listen to their replies?
How well are you listening to their issues?

I know the what it's like to feel like you are yelling and no sound is being made. It happens in some crouds. We try. Just don't stop caring...

John

[JohnF]

Now I'm going to have to question your motive on this one.

You may have an issue with consumerism. That has nothing to do with fishing.

You may believe that bigger boats are the cause of some serious degradation on the environment. That has nothing to do with fishing.

You may have big boat envy. That has nothing to do with fishing.

So what's your point? That I can't see situations where my activity might jeopardize some other value I have? Now you are questioning my principles.

For the record:

Yes, there are places where I believe big boats do not belong and I will go about my activities in a manner that I believe fits.

There are places (bodies of water...) that I believe should not be fished and I will not fish there.

I will get a big boat someday. :)

John

[JohnF]

A group.

Balance is everything.

Sometimes people approach an issue leaning in a real radical way. You may have to lean far in the opposite direction just to keep the boat from rolling over. Our (USA) political system works very well to converge these situations and we should all be looking for ways to get us all in the seats rather than over the gunnels. Remember that our political system and government is an experiment. We are people and we don't know the "right" way to do this so we give it our best shot.

USA Historical note: The last time an issue diverged rather than converged using the system we have in place it had to be solved with a war. We don't want that.

John

[Ray]

John, I would like to talk to you in private. There is a big miss understanding. Could I have your email. Thanks Ray

[SUPERTROLLER]

Sometimes you eat the Bear. Sometimes the Bear eats you. Which way would you rather have it? No need to reply. We all know the answer.

[Tom P]

Hopefully there is solid info out there that is not written by people with a bend to the left ideology. I think it is very very rare you have good unbias facts. Just like the info I on found on the oil and gas reading in a busy bay on 4 of July. If you would asked anyone, even me, if you would think that that water would be full of gas and oil I would of said yes. But it was not. But we have ALL been TRAINED ( sorry Bert :) ) By who?? that this earth is SO fragile. Who the heck is teaching us this stuff?? Where is their head at, when they wrote it. Let's all go by the reading of Rush Linbaugh on the enviroment. Nope, he's leaning to the right and has an agenda. So ,I feel most of the enviro stuff out there is leaning to the left and yes, has an agenda! Even the guys who wrote the text books of did those studies. Why do you think they even got into being a Phd to study this stuff. They wanted to help the enviro. With that come some bias. Not always, but enough for me not to take what they say as " The Bible" I think it is somewhere in the middle. What you have read on the environment is not going to always be fact.

[JohnF]

Sure Ray. Register yourself and check out the profiles. Be aware that I am JohnF and not any other form (like John F). I wasn't aware that my id was so close to so many others! Registering is easy, you can still remain anonymous if you want.

-OR-

Show me yours and I'll show you mine. You could have posted yours and I would have emailed you.

Then again, I really don't mind that everyone knows.

jwf1199@zeotek-inc.com

That's me!

John

[SUPERTROLLER]

John, thanks for the e-mail. Glad to see your sense of humor has not been lost. I'll paraphrase for the rest of you.

He was flossing the Bear out of his teeth as he typed his e-mail.

Thought others would chuckle a little on that one too.

[Tom P]

Please read post 71. Can someone please tell me what YOU would call the "group" that I discribed in that post.

[River_eye]

Well, my motives are a better, cleaner wilderness that we all can enjoy. This has everything to do with fishing and everything to do with any actions we take which harm our environment.

I don't have big boat envy, where I fish, they aren't practical, I drive up dammed creeks that are one foot deep in parts and am constantly beaching on rocks, so nobody can effectively fish where I'm at with a big boat.

I do have an issue with consumerism. I think it's rooted in selfishness and disregard for future generations. I have nothing wrong with comfort, but this goes way beyond that.

I have to disagree with you that consumerism has nothing to do with fishing. It has everything to do with growing economies and growing economies have everything to do with taking up more land and using up more resources. It is illogical to think that we can use up more and more resources, while still keeping lakes suitable for fishing on.

I'll take a stab at this and say that in the US, Nature had a lot to do with fishing, but not so much anymore. I know this because although you have plenty of fishing down there, you still pay my boss $700 for four nights at his lodge and pay me $100/day to take you out fishing.

[JohnF]

Folks, I have had a pretty good email chat with Ray. In a previous post in this thread I tried to pigeonhole him into a group that he really doesn't belong. I apologize.

I do not retract my post as I believe this is what I would sat to folks in any of these three groups and feel that it has value even though I now have to redirect it to a generic individual. That person is out there.

About Ray. He is a hunter that chooses to keep his guns at home due to his hunting grounds being overrun with careless and rude people. He is an avid fisherman. He is one of us. He has even had to deal directly with a PETA encounter while fishing, which I have not had to do. I was confused about the ending of his post, and he seems to agree that it might have been better written. He is sincerely asking the question, "Why do you think your fishing rights are under attack?"

Again, Ray, I apologize.

John

[River_eye]

You don't trust the enviro guys because you think that they are biased? Please tell me why it would be in their best interest to preach this stuff. The reason why they are doing it is for the environment, which is nicer for us if it's clean. Am I wrong? It is the consumers who are biased, because if they were to respect the environment, it would mean not being able to throw away as much garbage and buy as much stuff.

Let's start with basic reasoning, and throw all the radical stuff to the side, we also won't even discuss fossil fuels.

It is a fact that we are consuming natural resources, including trees, fresh water, fresh air, and agricultural soil fertility, faster than they can replenish themselves. It is also a fact that garbage dumps are constantly growing. Also, our air is dirtier and contains more noxious chemicals, especially in big cities such as LA.

Do you still refuse to beleive that this planet has any limits?

[River_eye]

>How well did you educate them on your issues?

I can't educate people who don't want to learn.

>How well did you listen to their replies?

Very closely. They were exactly what I expected. They would say anything as long as it justified their way of living.

>How well are you listening to their issues?

Better than I may let on. Although, I compare my nearby fisheries to the ones you guys have down there, and I never want mine to get like that, so it's hard to trust their reasoning.

Up here, we are rich in natural areas, and not as rich in material goods. You guys are rich in material goods and poor in natural areas.
I would trade material goods for clean wilderness, they would not. I want my kids to have the fishing experience that I have, not the kind that you would find in the US. Because of this, it's impossible to come to an agreement. Although deep down, I know that most americans wish they had what I have, because of the prices that they will pay to fish here in little boats.

[Water Dog]

The PETA'S , Greenpeace , and other such nonsence groups are about one thing only Rivereye . The end of good old capitalism and the enrichment of the few who control these groups .
Socialism has found it's new home in these groups since the demise of the former Soviet Union .
These nutball groups have not cleaned up one river or lake . They have not cleaned up any ecosystems . Only sportmens groups have .
Americans come to your part of the world to escape from the nutballs we know will overcome your world . Unless you defend what is your's .
Wake up and smell the coffee .
Sportsmen are the true conservationists and defenders of the environment .
Water Dog

[Nofish]

Howdy All.

You know we (WC) have been watching this thread. I must commend you all for keeping this a lively and interesting discussion.

Have fun.........R

[JohnF]

Snap! The trap shuts.

You're right, I shouldn't have said "... nothing to do...". I thought we were talking about protecting our right to fish and hunt and how it relates to PETA activity and the bad press that the Jeep commercial produced.

Now I understand your big boat argument. You want to talk about how our right to fish and hunt may be attacked by environmentalists. OK. This is tough because I believe that most sportsmen are pretty good conservationalists. Defining a clear battle ground is hard for me here because I don't see a mutually exclusive conflict. I believe sportsmen don't want to see their resources disappear and true conservationalists see humans as part of the environment and not a spectator to it.

I sat back for ten minutes on this one. You've got me man. I live in the Denver, Colorado metropolitan area. I probably have more poeple living withing 100 miles of me than you can imagine. I have seen the destruction of environmental resources for real. Dead ponds and the like. We have bodies of water that now require "little boats" as you put it, and we like it. We agree with it most of the time. I have in my lifetime seen the effects of technology improvements necessitated by legislated change that came about by people caring about our environment and the air we breath. I see change and effort that is for the good.

I think it is not so much that we consume, but that we dispose that is causing us problems. I think I saw a report once that claimed a major portion of our daily refuse is just packaging.

I think we go north not so much for the fish but for the peace and quiet. You live on the edge of civilization my friend. The frontier. There is a romance to it, and it is our love of being part of such a prestine setting that draws us.

Nature has not left fishing. Fishermen have not left nature. We just have to accept some declining nature due to an expanding population. Do you know what jetskis are? Oh, never mind...

By the way, those rates don't sound too bad... :)

John

[River_eye]

I never stated anywhere that I support PETA.

I don't group all those groups into one category, and neither should you.

I'm a supporter of common sense and good reasoning, that is all. But by the sounds of it, good sense isn't all that common anymore.

Wake up and smell the coffee? Tell me, where have you aquired your vast knowledge of this world? And how much does it cost per bottle?

[River_eye]

Well, I am still talking about PETA, and any group in general that has a problem with sportsmen.

My reasoning is, the bigger a group is (hunters and fishers), the more likely it is to step on other people's feet, most often animal rights and environmental groups, even if no harm is meant. It's happened already, so PETA is already coming at us at full force, catching us at any place we may slip up.

PETA is highly organized, sportsmen and women are not. As you have said, sportsmen and women are doing good in their own right, by promoting conservation, but in order to combat groups like PETA, this isn't enough, and being so big, it's hard to organize all sportsmen and women effectively and efficiently.

I think the only answer to our fears of outdoor activies being banned, is: 1) organization 2) increased responsibility towards our resources beyond what has been achieved so far.

If we use our resources with great care and responsibility, it gives PETA less leverage, and if we are also highly organized, it gives us the power to stop them in their tracks even if they do find somthing to get us on.

Right now, I only see people wanting to fight them, when at the same time we should be taking away their amunition. People are always willing to fight for what they beleive in, but when it comes to gaining knowledge to make what they beleive in stronger, that's where the problem is, and it's mostly because learning is less glamourous.

[outdoor fanatic]

River Eye,
I look at it this way. I would much rather have sportsmen who love and respect their way of life governing the same way of life. If you had an accountant, for example, trying to govern salespeople, it just wouldn't work because the accountant would do everything analytically while salespeople have a tendancy to be able to think outside the box. Now that example may not be exactly the same as sportsmen vs non-sportsmen, but I think you can see where I'm going with that. I personally don't own a boat and fish simply by wading or if I'm invited with a friend go out on their boat. But, it should not be up to the PETA people to decide what is best. They have their way of thinking and we have ours. Life would be wonderful if everybody agreed on everything, but that's never gonna happen. So, while I am still drawing breath on this green earth, I will fight with every ounce of my being to protect and keep the heritage that I grew up with to be able to pass it on to my children. It would be easy for me to place my head in the sand on sportsmen issues that don't pertain to me, i.e. boating issues. However, I refuse to do that because if the anti-hunting, anti-fishing group get their claws into anything, they will stop at nothing to make everything the way they would like it to be. So, that's why I'm as adamant as I am. That does not mean that I think that sportsmen are correct on every issue, but as far as the issue of taking away rights, I'm all for fighting against anything that infringes even in the smallest way on my or someone else's right to pursue the game of their choice. I will tell you that my resolve in this issue is as strong as it gets. If I were not able to hunt and fish, you may as well take my life, because being an outdoorsman makes up so much of who I am that without it, I would merely be existing and not truly living. Don't get me wrong, I am not a person who would resort to terrorism in order to fight for those rights, but I would do everything that the law allows.

As for bear meat, it can be rather tasty if done right.

[Ray]

John,
I accept your apology. We all make mistakes. Nobody is perfect. I make plenty of mistakes on this board also. I am far from being an angel but I have learned a lot from your discussion with you. You are a very educated individual and I deeply respect you and your opinions. Thanks for replying. Ray

[River_eye]

I get your drift Outdoor fanatic. I would also call myself an outdoor fanatic. Fighting for what you believe in is good. Besides fishing I canoe, hike and explore in the wilderness, just for the sake of being at one with gods creations.

The first thing that got me going on this subject is that everybody is willing to fight, but not so willing to learn what the best way of fighting is.

PETA used to be a group of people just yapping about how they need to do somthing and not really doing anything influencial, since then, they have gained vast political and social knowledge, and that has what's made them powerful. We need to do the same if we have any hope of fighting them.

As sportsmen, I see us at the yapping but not really doing anything stage. How many of us are willing to take the next step? Do we know how?

[outdoor fanatic]

River Eye,
I think the key to all of this is exactly the thing that is hardest to accomplish for sportsmen: organization. I can't tell you how many discussions I've been involved in with other sportsmen over other issues, ie. bowhunters vs gunhunters, etc. Sometimes it seems that we're spending more time fighting other sportsmen rather than the real opponent, the ones who would like to take it all away from us. But, on the other hand, what we as sportsmen excel in is dedication. Rest assured, I will stand and fight for my rights and those of my children and grandchildren to hunt and fish; and you can count on me to do it for Canada should it ever come to that. My wish is that I was a politician who could do more for it, but I have no desire to be a part of that crowd. So, I'll do what I can at my level and stand side by side with some of the fine people who have posted on this topic.

[JohnF]

Educated! Goodness, not yet...

[JohnF]

I have and idea. Let's all show up at outdoor fanatic's house for some bear steaks and discuss this further! That's organized! :)

Actually I pretty am sure I just heard the hammer hit the nail right on the head. Organize. There are some rules to it that we must obey. An organization cannot stand if it is fighting amongst itself. no no no.

Here are some things you can do.

Vote. Be aware of the agendas of the people asking to represent you. You don't have to be a politician, just hire the right one.

Be vocal. I don't mean marching around in your underpants waving banners and inciting riots. I mean explaining how this Jeep ad or any other slander is derogatory to your children or your neighbor if they ask. Keep your wits in this endeavor, remember the message you are trying to get across. Sign petitions when needed. (I feel guilty about this one because the ad was pulled before I got around to it :( ) My point in this paragraph is that even if you are a quiet, laid back type of person, there are ways to be vocal without straining your voice or comfort level. The more outgoing folks in the group greatly appreciate every bit of help they can get.

Join a lobbying body. Sportsmen are a huge group. How does it work? Well, you are basically signing a petition for/against issues that affect their charter. Find one you can align with. Also, it takes dollars to fight dollars. PETA has lots of em...

Vote with your dollars. Buckle up 'cause I'm letting you in on a real radical system of marketing. We're sort of getting back to the subject of the original post. Politicians do this too by the way. Here's how it goes:

Pick a conflict, any conflict. Make it big enough so that what you are about to do gets noticed. Say/tape/show/announce something that is obviously one sided. Sit back and wait for the letters. One side of the conflict is really giving kudos for your obvious sense of whats right. Letters come. Retract whatever it was that you did with a big apology. "Alrighty then!", says the opposing side as justice has been served; though they may feel a bit bruised. The media goes wild.

So, PETA sends them kudos.
We say, "Good Job!", for the ad was retracted.
Jeep gets free press.

Looks pretty good all around for Jeep. I wouldn't even be surprised if the retraction letter was drafted prior to the ad airing.

So... I am just echoing what others here have already asked. Don't let them off the hook. Let them see how big the sportsmen group really is. Don't buy a jeep. In fact, if you really want to send a message, don't buy from Chrysler. This kind of pressure does work! Ask Smith and Wesson. By doing so we are telling them that we will not tolerate such marketing ploys.

Oh yeah, and when confronted with PETA types, let's remember what Ray said. Don't be confrontational, they are needling you half to make you look like a lunatic and half because they need the sport. After all, they can't fish.

John

[skipjack]

ive been watching this thread also.sum people seem to think that we as sportsman have no impact on businesses that don't support or at least remain neutral to our cause,ie.hunting and fishing,but i do know this,my wife used to call me the k-mart shopper,but after rosie odonnel started shooting off her mouth about gun control and her obvious support for politicians who felt the same i quit shopping there all together.well look at kmart now.i just wonder how many of u guys & gals did the same.
lets all hang together,or we will all hang seperately.
later

[outdoor fanatic]

JohnF,
My home is always open to anybody who enjoys the outdoors, can tell a wonderful story and is willing to do something to further our cause for the sake of future generations. I will tell you this: I would never have had any offspring if I thought that they would not be able to enjoy all that nature has to offer if they so desire and if I was unwilling to protect it in anyway possible. As an outdoor fanatic, I believe that with the right to hunt and fish that I currently love and enjoy comes a responsibility to protect such rights for future generations to come. I don't think it is a wise position to take by assuming that the status quo will always be the status quo. I must tell you John that I believe both you and River Eye have provided the most respectful debate in this post. Actually, for the most part, every person in this post has been able to articulate their position very well. In fact, I believe that we would have the start of a great lobbying group in this site. So, all are welcome into my humble abode (it ain't much, but I call it home and it stores all my hunting and fishing gear rather well :7 ) I think it's a wonderful thing to be able to voice your opinion on any matter that you seem to voice it on and as for me, I will always fight for the right. But, I can also appreciate that River Eye has stood for his position even though it wasn't what the majority has felt. I would lobby with you, River Eye and anyone else that has an innate desire to enjoy our great outdoors. I am a fanatic, but I also know that fanaticism comes with things attached. I don't ever want to be considered a hypocrite, so if ever you need someone to help in a cause, give me a call. I will be there.

[outdoor fanatic]

Well said Skipjack.

E pluribus unum

Out of many.....one.

[River_eye]

All very true.

One thing that's really small, that still can make a difference is simple conversation. The fish aren't biting all the time, so you gotta entertain yourself somhow. The more we talk about it, the greater understanding each of us will get.

Also, if you see a fellow sportsman that is careless, or is an all around irresponsible sportsman, voice your opinion, show that it's not tolerated and it reflects bad on all of us. This could be as simple as reminding a fellow angler of the local limits if it seems like he's not paying any attention to them.

If you see fellow sportsmen disobeying laws, the worst thing you could do is shrug it off, or listen to his lame excuse and show any approval towards it.

Anything to make the sport stronger.

[River_eye]

I aggree, it's a funny sport in that way. Also, we'd much rather be out on the lake during our free time, rather than getting anything organized.