[b]O.K. Gang.

After reading the post about RCL amature experiences, I want to poke at the hornets nest just a little. And without airing my personal views on the subject, which might draw some unwanted flac, I'll state it this way. And I'm only fishing for honest viewpoints, while keeping the sympathetic or sarcastic answers to a minumum, If possibe.

Heres the Honest Question.

Is there any other Professional Sport, Contest, Vocation or any Big Money endevor, that simply takes the Support of Big Business, Sponsors or simply having the time and Entry fee money to be dubed a PRO?

Every single BIG MONEY professional sports event I can think of, (even the major BASS fishing events) takes many qualifying events, while slowly working your way up the latter to compete with the very best in that field. Why do you think the professional walleye fishing events have skipped this qualifying effort in most cases?

I can write a check and be qulified as a Pro in virtually every walleye contest scheduled this year. Is this right? Wouldn't the sport be better served if all the events were called amature, until the final events in each circuit, to indeed see who qualified to be called the best and Pro?....Fire at will.

"I can write a check and be qulified as a Pro in virtually every walleye contest scheduled this year. Is this right?"

The answer to that one is no. Really only two tournaments call their anglers pro: the PWT and the RCL. In the RCL you have to not only have the money but the right boat. In the PWT you would have to qualify and if you have never fished a PWT as an amatuer you would probaly not be invited to fish as a pro unless you have a great resume and other recommendations.

But in a more general answer to your question, I think it is because this is such a young sport. Imagine what baseball, football, and basketball where like in the first few years that they were offered on a professional level. Heck if you were a decent player and could afford to do it, you were probably in. Over time, it got harder and harder to get in. I think we'll see that in pro walleye fishing (it's so in pro bass fishing now) and you'll have to work your way up the ranks. Consider events like the GNWC sortof like a farm team of the PWT as a loose comparison.

Another part of the equation is this. I had a nephew from Arizona who was a terrific baseball player and he was invited to a tryout with the Minnesota Twins but went away from the tryouts very disillusioned. He felt that it was more important who you knew than how you played and the thing was more of a shoulder rubbing than a test of skills. He felt it was not how good he was but who he brown-nosed that made much of the difference. This guy's not one taken to sour grapes so I think he's giving an accurate picture of it. Maybe the pro sports aren't really all that different than the way the pro fishing tournaments are run.

There is something to be said about your question. I think there are exceptions to the norm of a "PRO" tour. The NBA has the most noticeable exeptions to the norm, La Broan James, and Kevin Garrnet. Those two both came straight from high school. For the most part you are correct in that ALL Pros have come from college, the minors, the canadian football leauge, and the truck and busch series in racing.

Ok I'll problably get blasted for this comment. Isn't fishing more luck than skill. I mean it takes skill to find the fish and the know how of different bodies of water and what should catch them. Just think about it, a six year old kid can catch a 10 lbs walleye, but can't play pro football. The first walleye I ever caught was a 7 pound walleye on a old school johnson rod and reel with a chumin minnow.

I don't know many of the pros on the tour only a few, but the ones that I do know have guided and still do quite a bit before they went "PRO" I would have to say that there guiding would be there minor leauge to the "PROS". But the guys who have never done that would be in the KG ranks. Maybe there is a better way to state that but I can't think of one. Good question Dan!!

capt. dan,

You raise a very interesting question. While you may have oversimplified the qualification of having merely having enough time and money to become a pro a bit too much, you bring up some valid points.

I would like to consider myself pretty good (or at least in my younger days) at the sports of basketball, baseball and golf. Even on my best day I could not compete with Jordan, A-Rod, or Tiger. (I seriously doubt that anyone else on this board would fare very well against professionals in these sports, either.) I would also like to think myself a pretty good walleye angler. I doubt that I could outfish the "top names" on a daily basis, but I'm pretty sure that head-to-head they wouldn't "school" me every time.

I still believe that the "cream" rises to the top in almost all walleye tournaments, but there seems to be room for some "no-name" to beat the field with a couple of good days of fishing.

Why do I believe this? I guess it's because fishing skills and success aren't based on athletic abilities, but rather on knowledge, timing, preparation, equipment, and in some cases just plain 'ol "luck"!

I guess if I really want to find out how good I am (and if my theories are correct) I'll "put my money where my mouth is" ;)

Tim

Edit: I forgot a point I wanted to make.
How many walleye pros made $10 mil last year? Unless I missed something the answer is zero. How many ball players made that same amount? Quite a few and the number grows each year. The $$ in endorsments and TV are staggering and it all stems from the fact that people will pay lots of money to see athletes play at a level where they could only hope to be. I heard the other day that LeBron James took over the #1 spot in apparel sales. I guess it's really a form of hero worship. You don't see too many Keith K shirts being worn out there (not a slam on Keith). Although there is certainly some positive effect on tackle and boat sales, it's a drop in the bucket compared to major league sports.

All that said I still like to watch the PWT and RCL events on TV and imagine that I'm in the field!

Tim

Saying fishing is more luck than skill is like saying Kevin Garnett is really lucky because it seems like a lot of time when he throws the ball at the basket it goes in.

It's true that money can buy you many things in the fishing world. Winning the respect of your competitors is not something that can be purchased, only earned. The PWT does have guidelines for entry as a Pro. They are concerned about your previous competitive fishing finishes and last I heard you need another PWT Pro to help you get onboard. Can all of this be achieved with money? Sure, enter enough tourneys and your bound to get a good finish somewhere. Every dog has their day. The RCL's format differs, allowing any one that ones an RCL product and can put the money up to fish. The other Team Circuits are also a good spawning ground for the next generation of Pro's. With in the Team Circuits you'll find some dang good anglers and alot of competition, money may make a difference in these circuits but not to the extent that it affects the Pro/Am Circuits.
So to sum it up, it helps to have some form of finacial backing to be a Pro in any circuit, the more the better....
"Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope"

[b]Man, you guys are sharp. And I knew this would stir the nest.

Weigh this question and hypothesis.. "Once a pro, always a Pro?" True or false? Let me explain where my basic feelings on this whole matter comes from better. When I got into one of the very first Manufacturer Walleye Council (MWC) Tournaments back in the mid-1980's, I considered myself just one of the hopeful entrants. Heck, nobody was considered or did consider themselves a pro, even a few of the other entrants that included Kieth Kavojic and Gary Parsons, both in that same tournament and both unknown names at the time. Heck, Kalkofen even intruduced them on stage as the two brother-in-law dentists from Wisconsin or wherever their from. It was 20+ years ago. I learned a mega-ton of stuff about walleye fishing since those early days. But does the monicur of veteran walleye pro still apply to me, because I was in one of the very first walleye tourneys?

I've been guiding and chartering for 20 years and only recently accepted the idea that I'm a professional guide and charter Captain. That's because I feel I've paid some dues in all those years and have seen it all pretty much. This may be the seed to my own mental hang-up on the subject of Pro, who knows?

This is a great question, There are alot of "pros" that I wouldnt want near me, ( and Im sure there are more than a few that wouldnt want to be near me either ) And there are a whole more that fought and clawed and learned the hard way and have proved them selfs time and time again that I would be more than proud to fish with.
I think what a close freind used to say about competitive fishing years ago says it all "money doesnt make the pro, the pro learns how to make the money".



scooter

We're a very young group and it takes time to develop. I think that you see this starting to happen with the RCL walleye leagues. They'll become the qualifying events used to supply the "Pro" ranks. I also predict that you'll see many of today’s "Pro's” having to go back and prove themselves at the "league" level after they slip in the rankings at the "Tour" level. Do a little research and you’ll find out that this same scenario developed at the B.A.S.S. level.

You need to look at the racing industry for comparisons also. I hate to say it but in some situations the racing industry can be a rich man’s sport and you can buy your way into it. Notice I didn’t say buy your way into success. At this time our industry and the racing industry has many similarities IMHO.

Dan, you indicate that you do not want to air your personal views on the subject. For the record, a person can read into this thread and others that you have posted and it’s not hard to figure out where you stand on this issue. That’s okay! You and I happen to have a difference of opinion on this issue. I think your major hang up is on the word Pro (Professional). There are different kinds of Pro’s out there in our industry. Charter Captains and Guides are a large part of this professional fraternity.

I hope that everyone reading this thread takes the time to separate themselves from the emotional issues associated with this question. Most people do not realize the 18 hour days associated with tournament fishing; the boat shows and fishing shows that must be attended and worked; the articles that should be written; the reports that should be sent out to sponsors; the appearances that should be made etc. etc. etc. To be a real Pro, there is a lot more to it than just showing up and fishing. Those in the Pro ranks may not have the athleticism of a Michael Jordon, but so what!

Last time I looked in the dictionary it said something like this:

A professional is someone who is engaged in an activity as a source of livelihood, performed by people receiving pay, one who has an assured competence in a particular field or activity.

That sounds like most professional fishermen and women that I know.

I believe one of the reasons it is so simple to fish as a "PRO" is simply to fill entry. What I mean is this, someone who jigs breaklines on a lake in South Dakota is not likely to A; Want to go all the way to Leke Erie, and B; Is not likely to fare well. One thing I like about the format is it gives someone who has experience with a lake similar to that hosting a tournament a legitimate chance to fare well. I believe what we call the real pros "the big names" got their first real break while fishing a lake that suited their strengths. That being said, I agree that to stay at the top you must perform consistently and not be a one hit wonder.

[b]Good solid Poop as always Dennis. And I think you hit the (Pro word) Hang-up for me on the nose. I'll work on it though, I promise. :D

[b] >This is a great question, There are alot of "pros" that I
>wouldnt want near me, ( and Im sure there are more than a few
>that wouldnt want to be near me either ) And there are a whole
>more that fought and clawed and learned the hard way and have
>proved them selfs time and time again that I would be more
>than proud to fish with.
> I think what a close freind used to say about competitive
>fishing years ago says it all "money doesnt make the pro, the
>pro learns how to make the money".
>
>
>
>scooter

Scooter my man ~ Great post!!! :)

Your question to once a pro always a pro:

A true professional is one who makes there name in there sport and is respected and admired by there piers for what they have contributed to the sport in which they participate in.

........money doesnt make the pro, the pro learns how to make the money............

love that quote.........wish I thought of it......... would like to use it some time.......

>........money doesnt make the pro, the pro learns how to make
>the money............
>
>love that quote.........wish I thought of it......... would
>like to use it some time.......

[b] Easy Dennis.

If Scooter is a Pro, he may want some residuals from the use of his catch phrases. :D. Sorry, It's going to take time.....

This whole debate on a simple word is only grounded in jealousy. Most who bring this up have a serious hang-up that some who entered into tournaments as a pro-side angler, can do so simply because they have the courage, time, and money, to get it done. Vs those who don't.

And this is also true of tournaments with strict qualifications to enter. One still needs; and I repeat! Courage, Time, and Money!

But will acknowledge there is a big difference between a Pro, and becoming a "Professional". To make the jump into the Professional ranks is to be one "good enough" to make a living off the endeavor.

Up until the fishing industry (oh yes, and out-of-industry) sponsors enough tournament fisherman, enabling them to become Professionals, these others who have the wherewithall do more than deserve the "Pro" title.

That is a very good question about luck and fishing, many a good fisherman has said that; there is a luck component or carma component to tournament fishing. For example when fishing a previous tournament a teammate of mine and I were fishing the same school of fish, pass after pass of not catching any fish changing baits and presentations with no results and then he comes along with the same baits and same speed and he gets results is it luck or being in the right place at the right time. Two tournament boats running side by side same baits same speed even the same type boat, one catches one dosent.
One other senario two fishermen fishing side by side jigging using the same bait both catching fish but one angler catches a 2 lb fish and the other catches a 2 lb 5 oz fish is it luck or skill?
For me luck, carma, or the good Lord blessing one angler over the other has a large effect on tournament success if you do your home work and find the right fish the rest is the uncontrollable factor in fishing and thats why fishing as a sport is different than other sports because of that large uncontrollable factor.

Hello all,,,I am not a tournament fisherman but have read this thread with interest. Though I dont know all the ins and outs of what it takes to "qualify" for the pro events,I would toss my 2Cents in here on the meaning of "Pro" . Pro=Money! If you are trying to use your skill for profit,whether your own,or someone else(your sponsor's) you are a Pro. Technicaly that is! Like the old sayings in NASCAR and NHRA Drag Racing racing.."Win on Sunday,sell on Monday". Why else are there all these sponsors?? If you are really any good at it or not, is a different issue,except for where your skill must at least be sufficiant to get into the show in most venues. That being said,it sounds like some of these "pro" circuits are making it too easy to compete. Seems that is an issue onto itself,rather than if one can be considered a "pro" or not. There really has evolved a double meaning to the word Pro . Many of us would like to reserve it for an individual who is skilled ,experienced,and has proven himself...."The Ole Pro". But the reality is,anyone who is trying to make a living at it,guiding,charters,tournaments,or promotions,must be considered a professional. (Maybe just not with a capital "P" ) But thats OK ! But as in racing,ALL pros should have to qualify for a major event,or at least maybe with some provisionals that would pre qualify one,based on prior finishes,not just being able to pop for the entry fee. Now here is a question I would raise Re RCL?? What is the mission of the RCL Tournament circuit?? To promote their products.Maybe thats why their "qualification" is not related to your skill and success,but rather to what products you own. There's the rub! PS... Walleye Express..When you saw Keith and Gary back then,Kieth was probably still working at IBM Rochester. Think he was an engineer or programer of somesort.

Just because someone fishes the PWT or RCL does not make them a pro. I have two friends that keep trying and trying to cash a check but still fail. After paying $20k and no checks they still have stickers on their boats! Go figure.

If you make it to the PWT championship, you can call yourself a pro. That is a true indicater for me.

[b] >And this is also true of tournaments with strict
>qualifications to enter. One still needs; and I repeat!
>Courage, Time, and Money!
>
>But will acknowledge there is a big difference between a Pro,
>and becoming a "Professional". To make the jump into the
>Professional ranks is to be one "good enough" to make a living
>off the endeavor.
>
>Up until the fishing industry (oh yes, and out-of-industry)
>sponsors enough tournament fisherman, enabling them to become
>Professionals, these others who have the wherewithall do more
>than deserve the "Pro" title.


sevenmmm ... Ya got the Gnads (Courage) for sure ~ I hope to see your name amoung the Stars of this Fine Sport in the near future :)

> For me luck, carma, or the good Lord blessing one angler
>over the other has a large effect on tournament success if you
>do your home work and find the right fish the rest is the
>uncontrollable factor in fishing and thats why fishing as a
>sport is different than other sports because of that large
>uncontrollable factor.

[b]Crom.

I cannot help myself from commenting on one facit of your post. This has been in my Craw actually for years. And I hope this don't come off wrong or fringe on the political boarder as far as church and state are concerned.

At the risk of sounding like Andy Rooney, did you ever notice all the bass anglers thanking God after a big Bass hits the boat? Or asking God to let them win? Or praising God up on the Big stage for his special blessings when they do?

I will not even pretend to speak for the devine creator. But what makes any one person think he's going to pick him out over the other 150 entrants both praying and thanking him for the same thing? Does he then become Gods favorite over the others for that day?

I've personally thanked God for giving me the knowledge, health and means to participate and be successful in things I love to do. Thanked him for the great day and being safe throughout it. But feeling he has personally picked me out for human praise and monetary gain when competing again'st others he loves equally, seems sacraligious.

Also, why even bother calling anything the RCL holds as a professional event? How can they consider their field of anglers to be "top notch" when they limit it to certain boat owners? (I own a Lund so no jealousy stabs please). A trained monkey could enter an RCL event if he could front the cash and a certain boat! I say let Parsons, Keith K, and Kolinski in and let um go to town!

Dennis feel free to use it, and Walleye Express you and alot of other guys out there are the true pros,I also remember when the MWC started and a lot of the truly great fisherman, started out there, along time ago then I guess you could call them legends.Only problem with calling them legends is it makes some of them sound old and some of them are still pioneers and come up with new and differnt wrinkles all the time to catch fish.These guys paved the way, payed there dues and some of them figured out how to make a liveing doing it.And there are still alot of young guys that will make this sport even better in the future as long as they dont lose sight of the past.
As a side note I like the idea to take the best of all the circuits that are out there and hold a tournement to find out who is the best.


scooter

I agree with "Fish-Ons" take about the RCL being in its early stages and it will be a while before qualifying will be mandatory. Dan, you also have a good point about B.A.S.S. having qualifying steps to get to the big show. There will always be players that make it to the big leagues in any sport that belong and those that don't belong. I think the RCL is doing a good job at providing a platform for walleye anglers to test their abilities against some of the best competition in the nation. Not too many people would buy the "right" boat, and pony up the money to enter if they didn't think they had the skills to be competitive.

Can you name a Heisman Trophy quarterback that didn't make it the pro's? Or a sixth round pick that went on to be a Superstar?

Gino Terretta of Miami and Terrell Davis of Denver

wking- you beat me to it!;-)

Eric Crouch, Drafted as reciever
Charlie Ward - Not drafted.

Scott

>Eric Crouch, Drafted as reciever
>Charlie Ward - Not drafted.
>
>Scott

[b]Ya know boy's.

We got enough knowledge and power on this board alone to take over the world....I say we do it. :D

Good job on the answers!!!!!! My real point was that qualifying or starring at one level doesn't guarantee success at the top level--fishing included.

Can I be Sec. of Defense Dan!!!! I have a big gun and know how to use it!!!!

Fireballer,

Not trying to be a SA but my point about the average Joe competing against Jordan or Tiger. I'd guess I got a 1:1,000,000 chance at beating either of them one-on-one (and that's if they happened to break their leg). Against the top fishing pros, I'd guess my chances are much higher. I think there are lots of fishermen could compete against the top bass or walleye guys on a given day.

I'm not saying that doing well or winning at one tournament makes you "great" or a "pro".

Tim

BTW Charlie Ward won the Heisman (award for the most outstanding college football player) but now plays in the National Basketball Association...go figure?!

Last I knew Walleye Central wasn't owned by the "State" so fire away... good questions.

I want to be careful about how I phrase this so I don't get it wrong but I was privvy to a conversation between Daryl Christensen and Al Lindner sometime prior to Daryl's winning the Walleye Super Pro while I was writing the book Journal of a Walleye Pro with him. The discussion went something like this? Is God willing to make fish bite for people to help them win the tournament? After all, God loves everyone equally, and wants the best for everyone, it's part of his nature. Yet He is a just God who rewards good and punishes evil.

Long story short, the end of the discussion landed somewhere around here: God certainly could make fish bite; however, he would be more likely to lead an angler to the fish or lead the fish to a place the angler is going, then it would be up to the angler to use his skills make them bite. These are a couple guys in pretty good tune with the Scriptures so I found their conclusion interesting. Additionally, a person more in tune with God's will for his life might be more likely to be in the right place at the right time because he is following God's leading. The Bible says that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

I guess the answer to the second part of your question could be answered like this: While God may love us all equally, we do not all return it equally. Could that have something to do with it?

Despite some tour pre-qualification loopholes, yes, just about anyone can 'enter' any walleye event on the 'pro' side. Fortunately, some have been shunned away for various reasons. To be a 'pro' and enter as a 'pro' are two different things. Professional sports teams pay the players - walleye fishing is kinda the other way around. Let's breakdown the skills and abilities needed for long term success on any tour:

Knot tying, lure selection for conditions, rod&reel selection, line selection, tackle selection, rod&reel maintanence, lure maintanence, boat maintanence, outboard maintanence, trolling motor maint., trailer maint, some vehicle maint., boat control(driving for all conditons, backrolling, vertical jigging, rigging, trolling(depth control, lead core, boards, dipseys, speed, repetition), netting, live bait maint, live bait selection, hook sharpening, map reading, reading electronics, pulling sterring cable, pulling wires, replacing bigle and livewell pumps, reading the weather, on and on we can go ... most importantly there is the ability to obtain the KEY INFORMATION on any body of water. The ability or skill to find active fish or concentrations of fish OR the ability get the info on active fish or concetrantions. The 'what, where, when info - the spot on the spot' info. Those that consistantly obtain the KEY INFORMATION are those who are reveared to today. Some tourneys are won before the first boat gets wet.

This is a good discussion. Gotta go for now.

Nice job...

Yes, nice job...

To simplify things, I fish as PRO according to RCL (hate to call myself that) It would be better to find a new word to describe wrote the check, put the time in, not good enough yet, maybe never. So i sign up for events as pro and hate the word. Prayer AND Luck may get me to a RCL Championship but still will not be a pro in my mine. Pro in my mind is defined as either one of the following the elite (to be pro at somethings you may not want to derive income from) or to make more than you spend competing through out the year at something. That would make some guides, charter captains and fishermen pro's. Fastest thing to do is look at income derived vs expenses. FYI, I fish all the tournies in washington and oregon, plus hate it even being implied that I am a pro..... wa_walleye

Start with the premise that fishing is NOT A SPORT. As long as the main element of fishing still relys on "chance" more than skill, then there are NO PROs either.

I guess by the same definition, a person playing roulette or keno or bingo or the one armed bandits would also be a pro.

They may have what it takes to get them into the casino, but will the games pay out... They have what it takes to consistantly find fish, but can they make them bite? In both cases no. In both cases the result is dependant totally on chance. As such, there is no such thing as a pro fisherman or gambler unless the definition stops at getting them "on" the fish or getting "into" the casino. Yes, they may have the best knowledge in their activity, but they still can't get past "chance". Yes, I know you are saying that there are pro card players and etc, but the reality is that chance is still the name of the game. Unless they are card counting or some other type of cheat as far as gaming goes. Same holds true in fishing really.

Now with that in mind, who cares if you can write a check to enter a competition, it is no different than getting into the card game or some other form of gambling!

It really doesn't matter what you call yourself. If someone is jealous of your ability to fish on the boater's side, they will only come up with another way to make light of you...

It's worded on the application form as entering as a pro...

I believe that Mike Iaconnelli was thanking John Travolta and Michael Jackson for teaching him all those dance moves.

I would like to add a point that some of you seem to be missing due to your constant exposure to the tourneys from the pros perspective. A few of my friends and I have always viewed the amateur opportunities in these tourneys as an opportunity to pay some money and receive the opportunity to learn what we are doing "wrong" so to speak. This chance to learn has always been one of the reasons I have looked to one day fish in these events.

These new RCL events are to some extent driving people like me away. Let me attempt to explain. I own the right kind of boat, and for the right price I could qualify as a "Pro". On one hand I would like to think I have an extremely large amount of walleye fishing experience compared to the average amateur. Over ten years, on a ton of the right places doing all of the important techniques, and catching a lot of fish. But would I really want to tell another person who might join me in one of these tournaments that I am the "pro"? I mean, I own all of the equipment to outfit us both, I know how to use it, and so on.

But here's the catch guys. There is no way I want to pony up the money to fish one of these as an amateur and end up paired with a "pro" who knows potentially a lot less than I do, has fished the body of water we are on less than I have and so on. Before you attack this post, that exact thing has happened to one of my friends who fished a Little Bay De Noc tourney. He has extensive experience on that body of water, is a truly outstanding amateur fisherman, and was insulted and very dissapointed by the experience. He walked away thinking that very little was added to his body of knowledge.

On another related but separate topic, what many of us amatuers who "get it" feel is that one of the only things that separates us from many of you is time on the water. While this may be true due to our working lives detracting from our fishing lives, many of our ilk are closer to the pros than some of you may think. That is not intented as a condescending or insulting remark, it is just that there are many passionate and talented amateurs out there who for what they lack in total time on the water, have the knowledge, experience, and mental abilities to focus, read the water, locate structure, and find fish. Also, with the growth of walleye clubs, more and more amateurs are getting access to the knowledge it takes to catch fish.

On one hand you are truly pro's by many of the definitions you have previously stated, but on the other hand some of us could win or finish quite nicely in many a tourney due to the right place, right time kind of factors. Conversely, I would never be dumb enough to think I could dunk a basketball along with the likes of a Kevin Garnett. In most sports some degree of athleticism separates the pros from the amateurs. No offense intented, but I would not call the group of professional walleye fisherman athletic :)
Smart, dedicated and experienced you bet. Now have at it guys.

Ambler

>I guess the answer to the second part of your question could
>be answered like this: While God may love us all equally, we
>do not all return it equally. Could that have something to do
>with it?

[b]That's good food for thought Fish_on, thank you for the post.

So fishing is only chance?

Wow, if that's true, why are the same guys always at the top at the end of the year?

You're correct, fishing has an element of luck, but it has a larger element of skill. If it were purely luck, the end of year standing would be a ramdom spattering of people every year. But it's not...the cream always seems to rise to the top year after year!

How many PGA, NBA, NFL or MLB pros work a regular job to pay for their professional pursuits. Not too many I would guess - until they 'retire.'

How many pro fishermen and women make an above average, or even average living simply from their NET tournament income (if its even positive). I would wager NONE!

Fishing tournaments is really just a hobby - no matter what you may call yourself. Some are better at this hobby than others. Some do make a living from working in the related industries - boats, tackle, etc. The jobs they do are normal jobs - marketing, research, customer relations. Then they go fish a few weeks a year to showcase sponsor products and, maybe, bring home a check as a bonus. There's nothing wrong with that, but it shouln't be compared with professional athletics. There is no comparison.

No the larger element is Chance. There is absolutly NO predictability in whether or not a fish will bite. Of all the fish the "Pros" drop a bait in front of, they are NOT catching most of them. Yes they are far better than many at finding the fish, which leads to increased contact/catching, but the actual act of taking the/any bait is totally up to the fish. And that is pure chance!

The same holds true in a casino. There are casino "pros" who are great at locating, understanding and playing a game, but the bottom line still comes down to pure chance!

Both result in payouts... fishing tournaments are simply a form of legalized gambling. Money in... chance at payout!

Nothing professional about fishing except getting on the fish and bouncing a bait on its nose. The rest is chance.

Sorry to blow your bubbles guys. I have nothing against anyone who wants to play the game, but for the main stream fishermen that frequents this site, all the talk of who's who among walleye fishermen is of little interest. Yes, techniques they use to get on the fish is excellent and yes they are skilled fishermen and yes by comparison to the average guy, they are far better at getting on the fish.

But, there is far too much chance involved in getting a fish to bite-if at all to claim it a sport and yourself a pro. No more so than an elderly old lady can claim to be a pro playing nickle slots!

Skill + Chance + Payout = Gambling

And yes I agree that sports contain an "element" of chance, but the larger portion of the equation is skill. In fishing it is chance.

You guys have hit the nail on the head. I've wondered this for years when I see the "pro's" on TV ... let's face it they're just a shade luckier than little Sarah that catches a trophy bass off her dock with a bobber and worm. Sure they'd beat her every time out in a numbers game but there's nothing to say that her bobber and worm at any given time wouldn't pull in the largest fish in the lake. The most important elements of the game is what fish will bite and when ... which are totally out of the control of these "pro's". I do respect the knowledge of these guys and I know I could learn a lot from them but calling them a pro is really streaching it ...

I agree and great posts. I absolutely love walleye fishing with a passion, #### I even shelled out 35 grand on a boat and am lucky to get out on the weekends weather permitting and an evening out of the week (daylight savings) in addition to getting out as many nights as schedule allows. I believe my passion equally matches that of the top pros, except that I choose to make my living in another pressure. I give you guys a lot of credit, the long hours, the nights away from home, the self-promoting and the uncertainty.

Because - the top guys - the guys who have been around a while - consistantly obtain the best INFORMATION. One of the best quotes I
overheard while standing in a pre-tournement meeting chow line;
"If you don't KNOW or can't figure it out, you will always be hope trolling for wish fish"

[b]I particularily like Wa_walleyes post, where he enters on the Pro side of the events, yet see's himself as the participant and not a Pro. This would be considered by many a deficit in the winning thought processes many say is needed to become the best.

I think he feels that the word Pro means the very BEST in the chosen field (as I do). And in his own eye's and heart, has not reached the peak of success or repetitive high standings one achieves being a Pro in other sports. I respect his honesty and integrity for saying what others in the fishing sports may be feeling, but never saying out load.

I guess no matter what the word Pro says or means to you, or what place of high or low position each individual attaches to it, the word Pro and it titles will be used and placed on certain individuals, who many will believe both deserve it and those who don't.

Oh come now dan, I can list many examples of when I was picked out (Must have been God, because I didn't ask for it) of a crowd for special treatment.

Yeap, I was once selected to be to the one that caught One fish in a tournament where everyone else limited.

I was once picked to be the moron at the launch that left his straps attached to the boat.

And left the transon saver on...

And Left the drain plug out...

And forgot his electronics...

####, once I went coonhunting and went to get the dog out of the dogbox and realised she was still back home enjoying her warm straw bed.

Yes sir, I was chosen to show others that Murphy's law really exists.

We all have our Day Dan.

I know I am special!

Signed

Rodney Murphy

snooker Thu Jan-08-04 04:34 PM




#236226, "RE: The BIG Question."
In response to Reply # 18


Also, why even bother calling anything the RCL holds as a professional event? How can they consider their field of anglers to be "top notch" when they limit it to certain boat owners? (I own a Lund so no jealousy stabs please). A trained monkey could enter an RCL event if he could front the cash and a certain boat! I say let Parsons, Keith K, and Kolinski in and let um go to town!


-----------------------------------------------------

I keep hearing that about those folks, and I keep wondering. Why in the world if those folks want to fish these tournaments don't they go buy a RCL boat? They have the money, look at what they have won over the past two or three years.

I'll tell you why. It is called sponsorship. NO ONE is keeping Parsons, Keith K. or Kolinski out. They like their sponsorships, and more power to them. But this arguement is BS.

One other little thing you forgot. DID any of those persons enter a RCL League event with those boats? NO, Hmm. WHO kept them out? They can enter with those boats. The First RCL League event held was in Detroit and won by a non-RCL boat.


And I would support your stance when Tracker starts allowing other brand boats in their Tracker tournaments and pay out the Tracker Owner moneys to those other brands also.

Your dog don't hunt IMHO!

Kurt Warner was bagging groceries when the Rams called him.
A year later he won a Superbowl.

Many professional golfers are Club Pros (The fella that gives lessons at the local links and runs the pro shop)even AFTER they win a event.

All the real money is made on shore. If 'location, location, loacation' are the 3 keys to real estate...the 3 keys to making money in the fishing tackle industry are 'marketability, marketability, marketabilty'.

[b] -----------------------------------------------------

I keep hearing that about those folks, and I keep wondering. Why in the world if those folks want to fish these tournaments don't they go buy a RCL boat? They have the money, look at what they have won over the past two or three years.

I'll tell you why. It is called sponsorship. NO ONE is keeping Parsons, Keith K. or Kolinski out. They like their sponsorships, and more power to them. But this arguement is BS.

-----------------------------------------------------

-It could also be that they don't have a RCL network setup to go!!! :)

God, I hate this network Krap talk ~ it's lake tellin' a Lil' Child there is No Santa n' kinda stinks up my opinion of a so-called pro who is a networker ... Hey there's a handle that I like better than a pro -- "Networker" :+

This thread is Great Capt Dan!!!

Back to Lurkin' :)

Rippn Eyes,

If it is more luck then skill why is it that we see the same names in the top ten. Guys like Parsons, Kavajecz, Gofron, Takasaki, etc...I think the skill comes in having to produce 3 days in a row in order to do well.

>[b]I particularily like Wa_walleyes post, where he enters on
>the Pro side of the events, yet see's himself as the
>participant and not a Pro. This would be considered by many a
>deficit in the winning thought processes many say is needed to
>become the best.
>
>I think he feels that the word Pro means the very BEST in the
>chosen field (as I do). And in his own eye's and heart, has
>not reached the peak of success or repetitive high standings
>one achieves being a Pro in other sports. I respect his
>honesty and integrity for saying what others in the fishing
>sports may be feeling, but never saying out load.
>
>I guess no matter what the word Pro says or means to you, or
>what place of high or low position each individual attaches to
>it, the word Pro and it titles will be used and placed on
>certain individuals, who many will believe both deserve it and
>those who don't.


That is just being humble, which is a nice attribute to have in life. However, "pro" is a term that has been used/over-used by the tournaments and marketing gurus. They need tournaments to claim fishermen as pros who in turn market and sell sponsor products. But, when looking at the attendance of weigh-ins and the viewership of programs featuring fishing tournament highlights, it becomes obvious that tournament interest is really very minimal. Now that is not to say that it is not loosely followed nor is it to say that the tourney guys have not contributed greatly to fishing, because they have and are respected for their knowledge. But the reality is that aside from modern electronics and gadgets, base knowledge for fish locating was developed and refined by old-timers who never fished a tournament in their lives and who were humble enough not to attempt to call themselves pros at something involving pure chance.

I think a proper title would be "tournament fisherman", not pro. Now this will likely irritate the guys who enjoy being called "pros". Face it, they love the title and love to bask in the glitter and glammer and the attention rained upon them, surely it is not for the money. Most pay out the nose to fish those circuits without consistantly winning and not truelly making a living at it just as one post has previously mentioned. But the title "pro" is really a fecade by those claiming it and a ploy by those using them to push products. And the end game is whether or not the fish decides to bite. Or NOT! Pure chance.

But don't worry, most people don't care if you tournament fishermen want to continue to claim yourselves as "pros"! Just remember that the widely held view is that there is no such thing in fishing anymore than an elderly woman is a pro at playing "Nickle slots" at the casino. We non-pros do not care what you call yourselves because we do not believe you to be pros anyway. So enjoy yourselves. Nobody cares!

To quote Fuzzy's earlier post:

"Because - the top guys - the guys who have been around a while - consistantly obtain the best INFORMATION. One of the best quotes I
overheard while standing in a pre-tournement meeting chow line;
"If you don't KNOW or can't figure it out, you will always be hope trolling for wish fish""

A larger question yet would be why god is considered a loving god yet allows one species to prey on another. If god truelly loves all creatures, then why is their a food chain? It seems pretty ludicrous. Further, why would god care about a competition between a few men and further why would he care which man catches which fish? Even more ludicrous. I think Santa Clause is as much responsible for fishing success as any other being!

I think Ventura hit the nail on the head when he talked of men who need a god, as being weak minded and akin to sheep.

>>[b]I particularily like Wa_walleyes post, where he enters
>on
>>the Pro side of the events, yet see's himself as the
>>participant and not a Pro. This would be considered by many
>a
>>deficit in the winning thought processes many say is needed
>to
>>become the best.
>>
>>I think he feels that the word Pro means the very BEST in
>the
>>chosen field (as I do). And in his own eye's and heart, has
>>not reached the peak of success or repetitive high standings
>>one achieves being a Pro in other sports. I respect his
>>honesty and integrity for saying what others in the fishing
>>sports may be feeling, but never saying out load.
>>
>>I guess no matter what the word Pro says or means to you, or
>>what place of high or low position each individual attaches
>to
>>it, the word Pro and it titles will be used and placed on
>>certain individuals, who many will believe both deserve it
>and
>>those who don't.
>
>
>That is just being humble, which is a nice attribute to have
>in life. However, "pro" is a term that has been
>used/over-used by the tournaments and marketing gurus. They
>need tournaments to claim fishermen as pros who in turn market
>and sell sponsor products. But, when looking at the
>attendance of weigh-ins and the viewership of programs
>featuring fishing tournament highlights, it becomes obvious
>that tournament interest is really very minimal. Now that is
>not to say that it is not loosely followed nor is it to say
>that the tourney guys have not contributed greatly to fishing,
>because they have and are respected for their knowledge. But
>the reality is that aside from modern electronics and gadgets,
>base knowledge for fish locating was developed and refined by
>old-timers who never fished a tournament in their lives and
>who were humble enough not to attempt to call themselves pros
>at something involving pure chance.
>
>I think a proper title would be "tournament fisherman", not
>pro. Now this will likely irritate the guys who enjoy being
>called "pros". Face it, they love the title and love to bask
>in the glitter and glammer and the attention rained upon them,
>surely it is not for the money. Most pay out the nose to fish
>those circuits without consistantly winning and not truelly
>making a living at it just as one post has previously
>mentioned. But the title "pro" is really a fecade by those
>claiming it and a ploy by those using them to push products.
>And the end game is whether or not the fish decides to bite.
>Or NOT! Pure chance.
>
>But don't worry, most people don't care if you tournament
>fishermen want to continue to claim yourselves as "pros"!
>Just remember that the widely held view is that there is no
>such thing in fishing anymore than an elderly woman is a pro
>at playing "Nickle slots" at the casino. We non-pros do not
>care what you call yourselves because we do not believe you to
>be pros anyway. So enjoy yourselves. Nobody cares.


Not a single one of the "pros" I know actually refer to them as such. In fact, they over correct the person they are talking to when distinguished as a pro. With over a hundred thousand in tournament winnings I think they have earned the right, but they don't like that monicur.

>Saying fishing is more luck than skill is like saying Kevin
>Garnett is really lucky because it seems like a lot of time
>when he throws the ball at the basket it goes in.


You are way off on that analogy. Actually it should be like this: It is like saying that Kevin Garnet needs the basket to open the rim to allow his shot to drop through the basket! And that is the point! If it was the same as fishing, who would know if or when that rim would open?

Kevin is a pro, tournament fishermen are not!

Say what you like, but by the definition of the word a lot of the guys fishing tournaments are professionals. If you wan't to make up your own definition, fine.

Chad M.

I consider myself a lucky fisherman!! I very rarly go out and do bad, I think there has been once in the last 6 years I have caught nothing in the summer. I fished the river last year and caught many walleyes when others didn't. Leech lake is another example, everyone has had such poor fishing and can't catch anything, but I get "Lucky" enough to catch fish like there is no tommorow. I have fished next to Roach, and Linder, and others in the Brainerd area, and have caught more and bigger fish than they did while fishing in the same area. I would consider those two to be way more knowlegable and skillful than myself.

Yes there is skill involved but you can't tell me luck doesn't play a big part in fishing. If it was all skill everyone on WC should be on the tour since everyone takes eachothers advice. The guys who are always on top I feel get lucky, and pay attention to what the fish want, kind of like goose hunting. But there is no gaurentee that you are going to make the "BIG" ones bite, they could catch all 12 inchers and be out of the money. All it takes is one BIG fish to make your weight tower above the rest in the feild.

I guess I've always had the ol adage "It is better to be Lucky than Good"

Dan this post is almost as good as the Gun one!!

LOL! Don't get upset. I didn't mean to pop your ego! The "pros" are legends in their own minds. That is their business.

Remember, you can BS everyone else, but when you start to believe your own BS, you are in serious trouble!

Pro no, veteran yes!

It's true that there is a very fine line between "pro's" and other diehard fisherman, including most who participate on the "am" or "co-angler" side of major tournaments. It's been touched on previously within this thread, but the reality is that, while finances are vitally important, what most successful pro's have is TIME. Time away from their full-time work, time away from family, thus creating time to pre-fish and research new and known bodies of water.

As far as a more objective measurement of a "pro", my definition is simple. If tournament fishing revenues or expenses hit your annual tax return - then you're a professional.

A common phenomenon on this thread is that the "pros" need to be and refuse to acknowledge that they are not pros. They are searching for any reason to be considered a pro and are seeking assistance in ego building as they attempt to argue that they should be compared to pros of other venues! LOl! What a joke!

I would have to not agree with the statment that Tournament fisherman are not Pros. Granted some arent' but I would love to fish with someone like Roach, Grey, Keith K., Parsons, McClelland, Juls, Good, and the Linders for a day or two. Those people are the ones who are the true pros, They represent the sport of fishing almost flawlessly and are such good ambassadors to the sport. Thank You!!

I would not consider Randy Moss a PRO!! He has lots of skill and talent, but what a poor example of Pro football player. He is no Elway, or Favre.

Actually it does seem to sound like Dan was looking for some ego stroking!:)

Not upset, I don't fish tournaments, and don't plan to. But, if you look at the definition they are in fact professionals. I personally know many of the top pro's and not one has a big ego. Sounds like jealousy to me?

So you think "pro" is only about attitude? Attitude takes you a long way, but it won't get you paid! I agree on your analysis of those folks being great fishermen and women, however, they are not "pros", they are extremely knowledgeable about fish and lucky after that! (Nothing personal to you great fishermen and women).

Hammer,

What is your definition of a professional?

Hammer,

Once again, you are wrong. Simply put, fishing is a sport by definition since it is an active recreation or pasttime.

Your questions are very good and my points may need some clarification. First separation of church and state is no where in this great lands consitution it is a tradgedy that the political left, has so trampled on what this nation was founded on but that is another discussion. A wise man told me that God blesses the just and the unjust to have his will be done for his glory. That being said do I believe that God can bless someone with human praise and monetary glory? yes, if it is his will to do so and to me that is not sacreligious. Personally I thank God for everything that he lets me obtain and in a tournament I will ask God to bless me if it is his will. I further believe that a person living in Gods will who is obedient to him will recieve blessings from God more often and lastly not only do I try to give God the glory for the good things that happen but also for the bad things because we don't know the whole picture of his will.

Last time I looked in the dictionary next to the word "Professional" it said something like this:

A professional is someone who is engaged in an activity as a source of livelihood, performed by people receiving pay, one who has an assured competence in a particular field or activity.

That sounds like most professional fishermen and women that I know.

You can twist this anyway you want, I guess you can even write you own dictionary but bottomline is if it's their livelihood and receive pay for their activities they're considered professionals

As a side note:
Many may not even make their livelihood from their on the water activity but make more money with other "on land' activities that are associated with the industry. The fishing activity is important but could be just one means to an end.

I had a acquantiance that liked to P!ss me off by telling me I had good luck and he didn't. That is why I have a new house, a decent job with great benifits, great wife and kid and a couple of reliable vehicles and he didn't.

But I get up and go to work every day. Both my wife and I went to College, we work together to pay our bills plan for retirement and are interested in our daughters education.

My acquantiance didn't like to work, nor his wife. They liked to let their kids run the steets. They lived off a insurance settlement for 10 years. When that ran out they couldn't pay the bills.

Today he and his wife are getting a divorce. He has moved in with his oldest boy. He has been thru two bypass surgeries in the last 4 years. Their house is going thru forclosure. His wife moved back in with her parents because she couldn't handle the stress of a full time job she took a couple of years ago and quit. He has no job or insurance.

Out of their four kids, One doesn't have kids. The other three, each have two a piece. None have been married. None have full time employment and all are on some type of public assistance.

Good Luck, Bad Luck?

I know what I think...

Luck is what you make of it!

IMHO Fishing tournaments are no different. I haven't done well with them becuase I haven't prepared well enough or I made the wrong decisions. Those that had "good luck" did!

Don't let jealously blurr your vision.

I would second that motion...

I don't think a charter captain could ever be considered a pro. My reasons are simple...they fish the same body of water day after day, and they mainly employ the same tactic everyday. Where a pro travels to many different locations and has to adapt to the ways of fishing a body of water. Plus a pro has to fish in all weather conditions, where a charter captain can call off his charter if he wants to. On Saginaw Bay for instance the main charter tactic is trolling hot n tots behind planer boards...that is not rocket science.

>But don't worry, most people don't care if you tournament
>fishermen want to continue to claim yourselves as "pros"!
>Just remember that the widely held view is that there is no
>such thing in fishing anymore than an elderly woman is a pro
>at playing "Nickle slots" at the casino. We non-pros do not
>care what you call yourselves because we do not believe you to
>be pros anyway. So enjoy yourselves. Nobody cares!

[b]Man, Hammer.

You must get way more sleep than I do, Thats good stuff. And I didn't even have to read it twice. :D

Sometimes you guys really crack me up. Lets be honest here- try and get over your envy, OK? Many of you wouldn't bother posting on this thread if you didn't have issues. You want to find out how good you really are? There is only one way to PROVE IT. C'mon in...the water is warm. But you better bring guts, skill, and determination or you are going to get your @ss handed to you. All the rest of this is just BS, whether it's in a bar or here on WC, and we deal with it all the time. Don't feel a need to PROVE your fishing skills? Then shut up, be happy, and go fishing! We all love fishing and that's what the rest of us do.

And to those who think that tournament fishing lacks legitimacy, just remember that walleye tournament fishing is in it's infancy. Denny Brauer has caught over 3 million dollars of bass in fishing tournaments and who knows how much more he's made in endorsements. Competitive walleye fishing isn't in that league yet, but it's better now than it was ten years ago and I'm excited to see where it will be in ten years from now. Remember more people in the US fish than play golf or tennis COMBINED. There are several anglers in professional walleye fishing that earn a pretty decent living. Rumor is the top guy made $250,000 or so before he put a line in the water last year. We earn our way and work hard for our sponsors. Getting paid to go fishing isn't a bad thing. Something I've realized quickly is that the top guys in this sport would be successful at whatever they chose to do. Tommy Skarlis could sell Widgets to Martians. Gary and Keith would be doing just fine if they weren't fishing. Doc Sampson and his wife are both medical doctors- yet he has cashed over $500,000 in checks in his fishing career. Do you really think he needed to go fishing? The sports analogy is flawed in this way: if Pete Rose couldn't hit a baseball what would he have amounted to..Charley Hustle at a used car lot? We all use the gifts God gave us. The most successful among us have figured out how to use them to the fullest.

If you think tournament fishing is pure chance or luck I'd love to compete against you. Gary Gray was really lucky the day the slots lined up for him in a casino. But it was a #### of a lot more than that when he beat us all at Winnebago. Competitive fishing is just luck? I got a little tip for you...you will be a lot more successful once you figure out that it's over 90% hard work and skill. Call the rest of it what you want. See you on the water. Jim Carroll NPAA #588

Hey Jim, don't hold back big guy! :)

I have been humbled at the weigh in trailer...more than once!

>Actually it does seem to sound like Dan was looking for some
>ego stroking!:)
>

[b]Hammer.

Heres the way I answered a comment on another board (same topic), when the poster refered to me as a true Pro because of my experience and resume.


Thank you very much for the compliment. I'm glad you said it and I'll tell you why. And before people start thinking we should start dating, let me explain.

It reinforced in myself what I've been trying to say about how I truly feel on this subject. When I read your praises calling me the true Pro, I had a weird sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why?

I can physically/verbally state that I am a Professional fishing guide and charter Captain without getting that weird (I'm telling a lie) feeling in the pit of my gut. Yet, I know that it's only because of the passion, hours and years spent doing what I love, that makes me any better and knowledgable at what I do than Joe Blow. The stripes I've earned fishing came willingly and only through the devotion to doing soemthing I've always loved and made time for. Sometimes at the expense of people I've love and 1 marriage. Still, I cannot stare you in the face and say, ya, I'm a Pro.

And like you said, on any given day Joe Blow will be where the big ones are and outfish me. He'll win the trophy, get to hold the 6 foot check, kiss the Potato queen on stage and be pronounced the winning Pro. This for me, is where the true meaning of the word Pro gets lost in the fishing world.

Marble Eyes,

You are lucky!


You're lucky to have such great insight and be blessed with the intelligence and great ethics.

You'd be welcome in my boat anytime.

Nice thread

Thanks Jim

Dan, you truly are an interesting guy and think of you as a true professional who makes his living in the fishing industry. But your dead wrong on this use of a prefix.

The real problem is most who do not want to be referred to as a "pro", is because of some who - with anger and jealousy - would argue there are better fisherman than those fishing tournaments. There is no doubt in my mind this is so, and you are suffering from this same idea.

It is just this simple, a Professional Fisherman is one who makes a living at this fishing endeavor. If you were to poll the ranks of those who fished the major tournaments last year, you would be surprised to find how many really do (make a living at it).

For the rest of them (there are not enough making a living at it to fill the ranks and they need extras), are commonly refered to as the Pro-Walleye Tournament Fisherman by the tournament itself. If you (and all the rest that doubt me) could, look in the dictionary and you will find the word "Pro" is a prefix that is attached to another word and is to mean "in favor of".

If your really jealous that others are on stage taking some glory from you - please throw your lot in the mix. Then you can be a "in favor of" tournament walleye fisherman too.

[b]Rick.

It may be jealousy on some people parts, but it sure isn't on mine. I get to take different people fishing in all season and show them a great time. Get to come home each night and sleep in my own bed. If it's to rough and dangerous, we cancel. Meet people who like me and I like them. Never get stabbed in the back by competitors or sponsors. Get some promotional benefits from a few places and get to cash a check every time out. Jealous, nope, wrong tree houndog.

I'll admit, I've always hated that (I'm better than you) attitude from anybody in anything, let alone a sport that cannot be counted on to be productive from hour to hour let alone day to day. And now add (the revalation to me) that pro's team up and share info with each other during practice and after days one and two. I'm sorry, I'm soured on the whole notion of Pro in it's present prefix.

You guys will have to finish this debate yourselves. I'm headed out in 4 hours to LBDN and Black Lake. It has been a nice debate though. Lots of good answers and some really good insight into the two sides. Talk to ya all in two days.

Have a safe trip and fill your walleye basket!

>
>Have a safe trip and fill your walleye basket!

[b]Well Rick, hope you happy.

I'm now only going to get 3 hours sleep before leaving. :D

Sat there staring at the celing thinking about your last post. And indeed if I considered the word Pro a Prefix to the word Professional, than yes indeed the guys who do nothing else but fish tournamnets for a living are indeed Pro's even in my eyes.

And one last thing. It may come across in some of the posts that I or others hate the Pro's for some reason. I don't hate but a very few people in this world, and none of them I can think of are professional walleye fishermen. I hope nobody thought that because it ain't so.

That kind'a talk is normally reserved for me! Thanx Juls, now I have somebody to look over at. LOL!!!

And I hope this don't come off wrong or fringe on the political boarder as far as church and state are concerned.

Sorry Dan, this seperation thing strikes a cord with me. I wish more of us would read our constitution and what it has to say about the freedom of religoin. Another good read would be Mr. Karl Marx's book where he intraduces the theory of seperation of church and state. I know you were more worried about offending someone and getting the thread dusted.

Chad,

Congratulations, in your first couple of paragraphs you showed very nicely the part of luck and how it can play into the equation. I must ask the question:

1) Did you fish in your boat and if so did you put you and your partner in those spots?

Ome looks at things differently when you find the spots on your own, luck plays into that equation too.....

Chad it is about skill and contacts. These top notch pro's need to fish as teams no one has the time to learn what they need to know to compete. A few years back I fished with Parson's on the Oahe in South Dakota, when he won angler of the year. During the prefish he spent most of the time on the phone talking with guides that were fishing around Cow Creek while I entertained his son Chase, by letting him land the fish we caught. Nothing wrong with this at all just stating a fact. Skills are also well honed when catching fish....these guys you listed catch as bunch

"Is there any other Professional Sport, Contest, Vocation or any Big Money endevor, that simply takes the Support of Big Business, Sponsors or simply having the time and Entry fee money to be dubed a PRO?"


If you have $10,000 you can play in the World Series of Poker and play against some of the very best Poker Proffesionals in the world. Look at last years champion, Chris Moneymaker. He won $2.5 Million and never played in a live poker tournament, His only experince was On-line poker.

-anymore good stuff?