Pro-am tourny rule question

[Trophy]

I would like to know the reasoning why the "Pro" decides technique, and locations fished when the his Co-angler can basically sit, and watch. I don't know why the time, and technique is not divided equally between each guy in the boat. My complaint is that if you are stuck with a "Pro" who is not working a productive program or location the Co-angler is screwed. I was just wondering.

[Trophy]

I would like to know the reasoning why the "Pro" decides technique, and locations fished when the his Co-angler can basically sit, and watch. I don't know why the time, and technique is not divided equally between each guy in the boat. My complaint is that if you are stuck with a "Pro" who is not working a productive program or location the Co-angler is screwed. I was just wondering.

[wallytap]

That's why it's called a pro/am format.He owns the boat,equipment and has spent his time pre-fishing which cancels a co-anglers right to decide where and how to fish.That's how the game is played.You'll know within the first hour if your screwed or not.I've always fish the co/am side and know how you feel.Keep quiet and fish harder!

[wallytap]

That's why it's called a pro/am format.He owns the boat,equipment and has spent his time pre-fishing which cancels a co-anglers right to decide where and how to fish.That's how the game is played.You'll know within the first hour if your screwed or not.I've always fish the co/am side and know how you feel.Keep quiet and fish harder!

[Trophy]

It's not like the Co-angler is riding for free. All I'm saying is that if the "Pro" isn't getting it done, the Co-angler should be allowed to suggest an alternate location, and technique.

[Trophy]

It's not like the Co-angler is riding for free. All I'm saying is that if the "Pro" isn't getting it done, the Co-angler should be allowed to suggest an alternate location, and technique.

[Dutchman]

If they think they're that good they should enter as a Pro. Then they can call all of the shots.


"Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope"

[Dutchman]

If they think they're that good they should enter as a Pro. Then they can call all of the shots.


"Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope"

[JLDII]

The co is only along for the ride, or as you might say, a spoter for the pro. The tournament is not about the co-angler, it is about the pro. Can he put the proper program together to put the nessesary weight together to win the tournament. That is the bottom line. Hard facts, but true.

[JLDII]

The co is only along for the ride, or as you might say, a spoter for the pro. The tournament is not about the co-angler, it is about the pro. Can he put the proper program together to put the nessesary weight together to win the tournament. That is the bottom line. Hard facts, but true.

[sevenmmm]

Think you are a prime candidate to enter on the "Pro-side"! :-)

[sevenmmm]

Think you are a prime candidate to enter on the "Pro-side"! :-)

[Trophy]

I never said I was a "Pro want to be". I also did not say that the Co-angler should make all the calls. What I asked was why the Co-angler can't assist with suggestions should the Pro not be getting it done. In response to the reply that the Co-angler is only along for the ride, why does it cost so much for the ride????? The point I'm trying to make is alot of Co-anglers are very good. They aren't some Joe Blow who gets out once, or twice a year. In some cases they could more than likely make a huge difference in catching more fish. In addition to that they do have about 500 bucks in entry fee worth of investment.

[Trophy]

I never said I was a "Pro want to be". I also did not say that the Co-angler should make all the calls. What I asked was why the Co-angler can't assist with suggestions should the Pro not be getting it done. In response to the reply that the Co-angler is only along for the ride, why does it cost so much for the ride????? The point I'm trying to make is alot of Co-anglers are very good. They aren't some Joe Blow who gets out once, or twice a year. In some cases they could more than likely make a huge difference in catching more fish. In addition to that they do have about 500 bucks in entry fee worth of investment.

[Trophy]

If it's all about the Pro, why does the Pro get to count the Co-angler's poundage?? If I have a Thousand plus bucks in entry money, 30 plus on a boat, hundreds more in equipment, and I wasn't getting it done, I would be more than tickled to fish a Co-angler's spot/technique if it puts fish in the boat. Could this be a fair-play rule to keep Pro's from using the co-angler as a guide?? I'm not trying to start any Stuff, I just wondered the basis of this rule.

[Trophy]

If it's all about the Pro, why does the Pro get to count the Co-angler's poundage?? If I have a Thousand plus bucks in entry money, 30 plus on a boat, hundreds more in equipment, and I wasn't getting it done, I would be more than tickled to fish a Co-angler's spot/technique if it puts fish in the boat. Could this be a fair-play rule to keep Pro's from using the co-angler as a guide?? I'm not trying to start any Stuff, I just wondered the basis of this rule.

[Juls_OH]

The Co Angler can give as much input as he/she wants, but it better not be another pro's information. It is up to the Pro whether or not that information is utilized.

If it is found that a Co or Am gave his/her pro another pros information and that pro used the information, they will be disqualified and a very bad reputation will follow that pro where ever he/she goes from that day on. In other words, it's risky business for a pro to take advice from a Co on where to fish and what techniques to use. The Co is just a stranger getting into the boat, should the pro just trust what they have to say?

The pro usually has a game plan he/she wants to follow, that they came up with during their prefishing period. Sometimes the game plan works and sometimes it falls apart, but the pros usually stick to them once they are fishing and just try to tweak them as the days proceed. Sometimes you Hero and sometimes you Zero, but that's why they call it fishing and not catching.

As a Co, it is best to just work hard, communicate, and concentrate on catching fish instead of double guessing your pros decisions. They have enough pressure on their shoulders as it is.

Just my opinion....

Juls

[Juls_OH]

The Co Angler can give as much input as he/she wants, but it better not be another pro's information. It is up to the Pro whether or not that information is utilized.

If it is found that a Co or Am gave his/her pro another pros information and that pro used the information, they will be disqualified and a very bad reputation will follow that pro where ever he/she goes from that day on. In other words, it's risky business for a pro to take advice from a Co on where to fish and what techniques to use. The Co is just a stranger getting into the boat, should the pro just trust what they have to say?

The pro usually has a game plan he/she wants to follow, that they came up with during their prefishing period. Sometimes the game plan works and sometimes it falls apart, but the pros usually stick to them once they are fishing and just try to tweak them as the days proceed. Sometimes you Hero and sometimes you Zero, but that's why they call it fishing and not catching.

As a Co, it is best to just work hard, communicate, and concentrate on catching fish instead of double guessing your pros decisions. They have enough pressure on their shoulders as it is.

Just my opinion....

Juls

[stevefellegy]

If...the co-angler were able to play a deciding role in the outcome of the event through info or experience he has, the event could be decided by the luck of the draw.... NOT fishing/fish finding skill by the "pro". In a bad bite...this has come into play several times in the early years where a "local" co-angler led his partner each day to the unique location/presentation to the win or top finish. NOT fair to the other pro's AND the other co's...to be beaten by the luck of the draw. I agree with this format rule and only hope it is respected by ALL.

The original and present intent with the pro-am format was and is to introduce/teach/create better and more walleye fishermen (and gals). A co-angler, over a two or more day format, getting a look at several pro's plans/philosophies/boat control etc., can either learn how or HOW NOT to do it. How the boats are rigged...good or bad...boat launching tricks...how various boats ride and more. Add the pre-fishing and atmosphere on shore before and during the event and it should be a fun time for the co-anglers as well as having a shot at winning. If this isn't good enough or the right fit....another alternative that is, should surely be considered before one enters as a co-angler.

(note....the PWT rules state no info of any kind, any time(during the event) to the pro from the co-anglers...the RCL rules just address the info a pro receives from the co-angler he/she(co-angler) got from another pro during pre-fishing or a tournament day. I think I have that all right? lol)

Good question though...hope this helps. This is the way I view things after being in the thick of it for a year or two....

[stevefellegy]

If...the co-angler were able to play a deciding role in the outcome of the event through info or experience he has, the event could be decided by the luck of the draw.... NOT fishing/fish finding skill by the "pro". In a bad bite...this has come into play several times in the early years where a "local" co-angler led his partner each day to the unique location/presentation to the win or top finish. NOT fair to the other pro's AND the other co's...to be beaten by the luck of the draw. I agree with this format rule and only hope it is respected by ALL.

The original and present intent with the pro-am format was and is to introduce/teach/create better and more walleye fishermen (and gals). A co-angler, over a two or more day format, getting a look at several pro's plans/philosophies/boat control etc., can either learn how or HOW NOT to do it. How the boats are rigged...good or bad...boat launching tricks...how various boats ride and more. Add the pre-fishing and atmosphere on shore before and during the event and it should be a fun time for the co-anglers as well as having a shot at winning. If this isn't good enough or the right fit....another alternative that is, should surely be considered before one enters as a co-angler.

(note....the PWT rules state no info of any kind, any time(during the event) to the pro from the co-anglers...the RCL rules just address the info a pro receives from the co-angler he/she(co-angler) got from another pro during pre-fishing or a tournament day. I think I have that all right? lol)

Good question though...hope this helps. This is the way I view things after being in the thick of it for a year or two....

[Trophy]

Steve, Thanks. You answered my question that this rule is used more for Guide prevention. I understand it's intent better now. For those who I apparently drove a big Spike through your eye sockets judging from a few of the replies, I'm sorry. I didn't understand the basis of the rule. Geeeeezzzz!!!!!!

[Trophy]

Steve, Thanks. You answered my question that this rule is used more for Guide prevention. I understand it's intent better now. For those who I apparently drove a big Spike through your eye sockets judging from a few of the replies, I'm sorry. I didn't understand the basis of the rule. Geeeeezzzz!!!!!!

[clarify]

Juls,

We should clarify your statement "the co can share anything...". That's only true in the RCL. The PWT, the am can't give any info at all.

Trophy, I can see why you might think the rule is BS, until you look at the reason for it. It's whole purpose is so that the info that an am gains with a pro on one day, can't be shared with another pro on a different day. When the PWT derived the Pro/Am format, the only way the pros would go for it was to have a rule that the ams couldn't share other pros info. It's difficult to enforce the rule if you say the am can share, as long as it's not another pros info. The PWT, and the advisory council, decided it would be easier to enforce a rule that says the am can not share any info at all.

Also, it puts more pressure on the pro if he's got someone in the back of the boat constantly second guessing him (out load). The pro already has a game plan, he'd have to be a big gambler to do what his am tells him to do...if the pro hasn't pre-fished that program.

You might try entering a few tournaments on the pro side, and I think you'll see what I mean.

[clarify]

Juls,

We should clarify your statement "the co can share anything...". That's only true in the RCL. The PWT, the am can't give any info at all.

Trophy, I can see why you might think the rule is BS, until you look at the reason for it. It's whole purpose is so that the info that an am gains with a pro on one day, can't be shared with another pro on a different day. When the PWT derived the Pro/Am format, the only way the pros would go for it was to have a rule that the ams couldn't share other pros info. It's difficult to enforce the rule if you say the am can share, as long as it's not another pros info. The PWT, and the advisory council, decided it would be easier to enforce a rule that says the am can not share any info at all.

Also, it puts more pressure on the pro if he's got someone in the back of the boat constantly second guessing him (out load). The pro already has a game plan, he'd have to be a big gambler to do what his am tells him to do...if the pro hasn't pre-fished that program.

You might try entering a few tournaments on the pro side, and I think you'll see what I mean.

[wallytap]

Hey Trophy,it's the middle of winter some people get a little goofy this time of year......LOL

[wallytap]

Hey Trophy,it's the middle of winter some people get a little goofy this time of year......LOL

[MOUNTAIN MAN]

The RCL made it quite clear through answered questions and through a public explanation at a pre-tourney meeting last year that a co-angler is free to offer any information that he or she did not receive from A PRO they fished with previous days of that tourney. In other words the first day there are no restrictions. Beyond that if it is something you found on your own it is still fair game.

Then it is the pro's call to decide whether to use it or not. You will
find more than one pro in the RCL that will listen to what you have to say and glean from it what their experience,(most have a lot of experience ), tells them is of value. I have been fishing more than 45 years, and I would be lying if I said I didn't learn a lot of things each day out with different PROs. Some things to do, some things never to do.

I really think the way to approach this situation is to listen and learn, by asking questions and only offering when it is the only obvious thing to do. I charge $200 a day for a guide trip for one over here in Wisconsin. I or anyone can enter an RCL event as a co-angler for $500. That means in the worst scenario it only cost me $50. more a day, I get to meet and great some of the best, have a nice meal, learn new water and tactics from someone else. Then if I finish in the top fifty (50) I get my entry back, and top 20 only gets better. First place is fantastic. If I get a shot at the big money at the championship hey well you see the picture.

Yes I know there are motels and meals and Gas money for the PRO, but
most of my guide customers stay in a motel and tip so it all evens out. If you want an even more incredible deal check out the RCL League, Or if you like the Bass thing the BFL.... both $75 for a co-angler. Unbelievable.

So I guess what I'm saying is if the Pro uses legal info you offer great and if not you still get a great deal and new info. If it just doesn't seem right, and you can't stand the luck of the draw thing, then the only way to go is PRO.

[MOUNTAIN MAN]

The RCL made it quite clear through answered questions and through a public explanation at a pre-tourney meeting last year that a co-angler is free to offer any information that he or she did not receive from A PRO they fished with previous days of that tourney. In other words the first day there are no restrictions. Beyond that if it is something you found on your own it is still fair game.

Then it is the pro's call to decide whether to use it or not. You will
find more than one pro in the RCL that will listen to what you have to say and glean from it what their experience,(most have a lot of experience ), tells them is of value. I have been fishing more than 45 years, and I would be lying if I said I didn't learn a lot of things each day out with different PROs. Some things to do, some things never to do.

I really think the way to approach this situation is to listen and learn, by asking questions and only offering when it is the only obvious thing to do. I charge $200 a day for a guide trip for one over here in Wisconsin. I or anyone can enter an RCL event as a co-angler for $500. That means in the worst scenario it only cost me $50. more a day, I get to meet and great some of the best, have a nice meal, learn new water and tactics from someone else. Then if I finish in the top fifty (50) I get my entry back, and top 20 only gets better. First place is fantastic. If I get a shot at the big money at the championship hey well you see the picture.

Yes I know there are motels and meals and Gas money for the PRO, but
most of my guide customers stay in a motel and tip so it all evens out. If you want an even more incredible deal check out the RCL League, Or if you like the Bass thing the BFL.... both $75 for a co-angler. Unbelievable.

So I guess what I'm saying is if the Pro uses legal info you offer great and if not you still get a great deal and new info. If it just doesn't seem right, and you can't stand the luck of the draw thing, then the only way to go is PRO.

[stevefellegy]

Great answer and right from first hand experience...thank you!

[stevefellegy]

Great answer and right from first hand experience...thank you!

[wallidiver]

I completely understand the rules that have been set forth for co anglers. My question is why don't these same rules apply to the pro's themselves? My understanding is that many of the pros have grouped up, share information before and during the tournaments. Maybe I'm missing the boat here. I know there was another post on this topic, but I'm still missing something? I understand why a co angler can't share information from the previous days outing, but what's the difference with the "team" sharing information. I can see why making it to the big league in fishing would be difficult. I just feel fishing tournaments are an individual or partner sport. With the ever increasing dollars and endorsements on the line the "team" approach would definetely diversify the risk and spread the knowledge, but make it even harder for an up and coming rookie to make the big league. Like everything else in life it's who you know. Can someone please explain the difference, or am I just up to late dreaming about spring..lol

[wallidiver]

I completely understand the rules that have been set forth for co anglers. My question is why don't these same rules apply to the pro's themselves? My understanding is that many of the pros have grouped up, share information before and during the tournaments. Maybe I'm missing the boat here. I know there was another post on this topic, but I'm still missing something? I understand why a co angler can't share information from the previous days outing, but what's the difference with the "team" sharing information. I can see why making it to the big league in fishing would be difficult. I just feel fishing tournaments are an individual or partner sport. With the ever increasing dollars and endorsements on the line the "team" approach would definetely diversify the risk and spread the knowledge, but make it even harder for an up and coming rookie to make the big league. Like everything else in life it's who you know. Can someone please explain the difference, or am I just up to late dreaming about spring..lol

[tours]

Wallidiver

Hope this will help! To many of the guys teamed up, this is a business! There for they form partnerships with other business men or (Juls) in hopes that it will bring them higher standing! In other words the bodies of water that they fish are very large and would take weeks to cover and form a Winning plan. Teams are formed, good teams have great networks of people that give them sound advice on the body of water they are fishing. The team pools all the advice and forms a plan by pre-fishing and covering water. This very smart business! See in the long run the members of the team will do very well on the tour, PLUS with the Sponsors. The TEAMS indivdual members must still perform on the water during the events.
Rookies would need to fish on circuit as an AM/CO angler to learn this system and MAKE freinds! The more freinds you have on the tour the the better! You may not get teamed up with the biggest guns right away, but alot of these guys can help you with a tip or alittle help if your hurting! The whole trick is not abuse the freindships you have made!YES it is hard to the Rookie on the tour UNLESS you are hooked up because some team takes aliken to you.
As for AM/CO. these rules were made by the tour guys to protect the teams from the "BAD" element that would do anything to win. In other words if your game plan is not good enough, one could ask the AM/CO what they did the day/s before to better there standing. This would be like cheating, they did'nt do there home work or their plan was not good enough so they did what ever it takes to better their own standing.
Believe it or not the "TEAM" concept is good for fishing! This concept brings in sponsors and makes the whole tour better and bigger. No one really know who is the very best out there at the game, but teams have guys that are some of the best at certin methods. Some guys a very good on rivers some at Greatlakes trolling and some are very good on structure. Put all there skill and knowlegde together and they can go to any body of water and do well! These guys work hard year round, get info talking to people, and doing the little things it takes to be the very best they can.
I have read all the posts lately about this and can't understand what the big deal is! This is a business whether you like it or not and thats very smart business!

Hope this helps

Gordy

[tours]

Wallidiver

Hope this will help! To many of the guys teamed up, this is a business! There for they form partnerships with other business men or (Juls) in hopes that it will bring them higher standing! In other words the bodies of water that they fish are very large and would take weeks to cover and form a Winning plan. Teams are formed, good teams have great networks of people that give them sound advice on the body of water they are fishing. The team pools all the advice and forms a plan by pre-fishing and covering water. This very smart business! See in the long run the members of the team will do very well on the tour, PLUS with the Sponsors. The TEAMS indivdual members must still perform on the water during the events.
Rookies would need to fish on circuit as an AM/CO angler to learn this system and MAKE freinds! The more freinds you have on the tour the the better! You may not get teamed up with the biggest guns right away, but alot of these guys can help you with a tip or alittle help if your hurting! The whole trick is not abuse the freindships you have made!YES it is hard to the Rookie on the tour UNLESS you are hooked up because some team takes aliken to you.
As for AM/CO. these rules were made by the tour guys to protect the teams from the "BAD" element that would do anything to win. In other words if your game plan is not good enough, one could ask the AM/CO what they did the day/s before to better there standing. This would be like cheating, they did'nt do there home work or their plan was not good enough so they did what ever it takes to better their own standing.
Believe it or not the "TEAM" concept is good for fishing! This concept brings in sponsors and makes the whole tour better and bigger. No one really know who is the very best out there at the game, but teams have guys that are some of the best at certin methods. Some guys a very good on rivers some at Greatlakes trolling and some are very good on structure. Put all there skill and knowlegde together and they can go to any body of water and do well! These guys work hard year round, get info talking to people, and doing the little things it takes to be the very best they can.
I have read all the posts lately about this and can't understand what the big deal is! This is a business whether you like it or not and thats very smart business!

Hope this helps

Gordy

[bigfish1965]

Alright..let me get this straight. You come to my home lake, I have a particular lure that does very well under such and such a condition. I'm in this to win and I'm not allowed to say anything? My entry fee ain't exactly chicken feed.

[bigfish1965]

Alright..let me get this straight. You come to my home lake, I have a particular lure that does very well under such and such a condition. I'm in this to win and I'm not allowed to say anything? My entry fee ain't exactly chicken feed.

[love them eyes guy]

I understand your veiw, but if your the guy with the magic lure you need to be on the "PRO" side. Everyones the best till they put the money up and fish as the Pro, then they find they are not as gifted as they thought.

[love them eyes guy]

I understand your veiw, but if your the guy with the magic lure you need to be on the "PRO" side. Everyones the best till they put the money up and fish as the Pro, then they find they are not as gifted as they thought.

[Raybob]

[b] "I have read all the posts lately about this and can't understand what the big deal is! This is a business whether you like it or not and thats very smart business!"

:) ~ the more I hear, the more it sounds like a set-up Bill Dance Fishin' Show .. kinda Razzin', but kinda Serious too!!! :)

I Luv Football too, but I gave up on "Pro $$ Ball" & only follow College Football anymore...

~ Whatever makes your Boat Float :+

[Raybob]

[b] "I have read all the posts lately about this and can't understand what the big deal is! This is a business whether you like it or not and thats very smart business!"

:) ~ the more I hear, the more it sounds like a set-up Bill Dance Fishin' Show .. kinda Razzin', but kinda Serious too!!! :)

I Luv Football too, but I gave up on "Pro $$ Ball" & only follow College Football anymore...

~ Whatever makes your Boat Float :+

[wallidiver]

I appreciate the insight Tour,
Your correct in that is how a true business should be run, in that type setting in which the top echelon fish, it has to be I guess. I just look at the sport as a tue man against fish and I said in my last post boat against boat, seeing pros do well knowing that they may of gained their knowledge and maybe placed well because of the team insight doesn't seem like a pure win to me, but this is the big arena and that will continue to progress in that direction. I applaude these top pros I realize they have put alot of sweat and risk into getting to the top, I'm just a purest at heart and like the individual that has em all to himself and takes the win. With all this said, If I was at that level of tournament fishing and made a career of it I would probably be part of a team..lol I'm a good business man! :) Thanks again for the insight.

[wallidiver]

I appreciate the insight Tour,
Your correct in that is how a true business should be run, in that type setting in which the top echelon fish, it has to be I guess. I just look at the sport as a tue man against fish and I said in my last post boat against boat, seeing pros do well knowing that they may of gained their knowledge and maybe placed well because of the team insight doesn't seem like a pure win to me, but this is the big arena and that will continue to progress in that direction. I applaude these top pros I realize they have put alot of sweat and risk into getting to the top, I'm just a purest at heart and like the individual that has em all to himself and takes the win. With all this said, If I was at that level of tournament fishing and made a career of it I would probably be part of a team..lol I'm a good business man! :) Thanks again for the insight.

[Trophy]

I was content with the answer that Steve Fellegy gave me on the reason why the rule was put in place which was to make the Guide concept not a factor. However after reading posts after Steve's it is quite apparent that some "Pro" anglers have posted that they have and are cheating their own system by networking with each other. It almost appears according to some of your own posts that it is more of an issue of the "pro" not wanting some "backwoods Johnnie" putting together the winning program, and getting the headlines. I'm just giving my opinion from the facts you guys are posting. If it's a Team concept, then the Pro's should fish together as a team in 1 division, and the co-anglers should fish together in another division. It will never happen and I'll tell you why. The Pro circuit would not want an Amature team outweigh them on the stage. It would put a big Black Eye on the Pro status, and it would make some sponsers open their eyes to different anglers. That would mean that some of the Pro's who haven't done squat in years, and we all know they exist, would lose the free ride. If that Money Well dried up how many of them would still be saying put up "your" money or shut up. Just my 2 cents worth.


Trophy ch.79

[Trophy]

I was content with the answer that Steve Fellegy gave me on the reason why the rule was put in place which was to make the Guide concept not a factor. However after reading posts after Steve's it is quite apparent that some "Pro" anglers have posted that they have and are cheating their own system by networking with each other. It almost appears according to some of your own posts that it is more of an issue of the "pro" not wanting some "backwoods Johnnie" putting together the winning program, and getting the headlines. I'm just giving my opinion from the facts you guys are posting. If it's a Team concept, then the Pro's should fish together as a team in 1 division, and the co-anglers should fish together in another division. It will never happen and I'll tell you why. The Pro circuit would not want an Amature team outweigh them on the stage. It would put a big Black Eye on the Pro status, and it would make some sponsers open their eyes to different anglers. That would mean that some of the Pro's who haven't done squat in years, and we all know they exist, would lose the free ride. If that Money Well dried up how many of them would still be saying put up "your" money or shut up. Just my 2 cents worth.


Trophy ch.79

[wallidiver]

Well put!

[wallidiver]

Well put!

[Stats]

Your scenario of having the amateur beat the pro has happened. Back in 94' the first year that Cabela's NAWA was around they did not have a rule about amateurs sharing info. A local from the area that entered on the amateur side had a "secret spot" and a good pattern. The pro angler that won the tournament fished with him on day one. Second place pro fished with this amateur on day two, and the third place pro fished with him on day three. I think the top pro ended up weighing ~55lbs and the top amateur weighed ~70lbs. So it has happened.

The next year the NAWA changed their rules to include language prohibiting amateurs from sharing fishing info with pros. Two ways to look at that. First, your assumption that the sponsors and anglers don't want amateurs beating them is one view. A second view, and I believe the actual reasoning, was to make the event fair for all who enter on the pro side. I'll explain: The 130 pros that enter an event need to know that everything possible (I said possible) to make the playing field level is being done. In the aforementioned case the playing field was not level because the outcome was solely determined by who the pros drew as an amateur (1st, 2nd, 3rd). The other 130 pros did not have a fair shake. This scenario is not the same as pros networking together. All pros have the choice to work together with someone else in the event, with a brother who lives on the lake, the baitshop owner, a guide that they went to High School with etc. Almost all do network (somebody said it was business). That in itself does not make the field unlevel because everyone has the opportunity to do so. Having one hot stick amateur at a particular body of water makes it unlevel because at most only three (or 4 in RCL) anglers will draw him over the course of the event. Big difference.

By the way, I bet if you asked that amateur from 94' if he wishes he had fished pro the answer would be yes.

[Stats]

Your scenario of having the amateur beat the pro has happened. Back in 94' the first year that Cabela's NAWA was around they did not have a rule about amateurs sharing info. A local from the area that entered on the amateur side had a "secret spot" and a good pattern. The pro angler that won the tournament fished with him on day one. Second place pro fished with this amateur on day two, and the third place pro fished with him on day three. I think the top pro ended up weighing ~55lbs and the top amateur weighed ~70lbs. So it has happened.

The next year the NAWA changed their rules to include language prohibiting amateurs from sharing fishing info with pros. Two ways to look at that. First, your assumption that the sponsors and anglers don't want amateurs beating them is one view. A second view, and I believe the actual reasoning, was to make the event fair for all who enter on the pro side. I'll explain: The 130 pros that enter an event need to know that everything possible (I said possible) to make the playing field level is being done. In the aforementioned case the playing field was not level because the outcome was solely determined by who the pros drew as an amateur (1st, 2nd, 3rd). The other 130 pros did not have a fair shake. This scenario is not the same as pros networking together. All pros have the choice to work together with someone else in the event, with a brother who lives on the lake, the baitshop owner, a guide that they went to High School with etc. Almost all do network (somebody said it was business). That in itself does not make the field unlevel because everyone has the opportunity to do so. Having one hot stick amateur at a particular body of water makes it unlevel because at most only three (or 4 in RCL) anglers will draw him over the course of the event. Big difference.

By the way, I bet if you asked that amateur from 94' if he wishes he had fished pro the answer would be yes.

[stevefellegy]

One thing for sure..the "money well" you speak of does NOT exist! At least not yet and NEVER has....for 95 percent of anyone who has ever entered a walleye tourney.

Healthy discussion stuff though....

[stevefellegy]

One thing for sure..the "money well" you speak of does NOT exist! At least not yet and NEVER has....for 95 percent of anyone who has ever entered a walleye tourney.

Healthy discussion stuff though....

[stevefellegy]

I was there....and THAT actual event changed the whole picture to what or how it is today...

Great post! Thank you.

[stevefellegy]

I was there....and THAT actual event changed the whole picture to what or how it is today...

Great post! Thank you.

[Shot in the foot]

I the csae of the amature, how many times do you think he has kicked himself in the foot? First second and third did not draw that am. another Pro had the pattern figured out also, he just was'nt in the exact same spot! Plus he had to deal with all the other anglers on days two and three that were parked on him! I know I saw it first hand. All that being said, why would someone that lives on the body of water and fishes it all the time enter as an am.? You should enter an event on a body of water that you struggle on! This will help you learn different waters and styles. Never enter on the waters that you live on, enter as a Pro you already know how to fish there.

[Shot in the foot]

I the csae of the amature, how many times do you think he has kicked himself in the foot? First second and third did not draw that am. another Pro had the pattern figured out also, he just was'nt in the exact same spot! Plus he had to deal with all the other anglers on days two and three that were parked on him! I know I saw it first hand. All that being said, why would someone that lives on the body of water and fishes it all the time enter as an am.? You should enter an event on a body of water that you struggle on! This will help you learn different waters and styles. Never enter on the waters that you live on, enter as a Pro you already know how to fish there.

[Raybob]

[b]

>I was content with the answer that Steve Fellegy gave me on
>the reason why the rule was put in place which was to make the
>Guide concept not a factor. However after reading posts after
>Steve's it is quite apparent that some "Pro" anglers have
>posted that they have and are cheating their own system by
>networking with each other. It almost appears according to
>some of your own posts that it is more of an issue of the
>"pro" not wanting some "backwoods Johnnie" putting together
>the winning program, and getting the headlines. I'm just
>giving my opinion from the facts you guys are posting. If it's
>a Team concept, then the Pro's should fish together as a team
>in 1 division, and the co-anglers should fish together in
>another division. It will never happen and I'll tell you why.
>The Pro circuit would not want an Amature team outweigh them
>on the stage. It would put a big Black Eye on the Pro status,
>and it would make some sponsers open their eyes to different
>anglers. That would mean that some of the Pro's who haven't
>done squat in years, and we all know they exist, would lose
>the free ride. If that Money Well dried up how many of them
>would still be saying put up "your" money or shut up. Just my
>2 cents worth.
>
>
>Trophy ch.79

.. Trophy - Great Post ~ You Da Man!!! :)

[Raybob]

[b]

>I was content with the answer that Steve Fellegy gave me on
>the reason why the rule was put in place which was to make the
>Guide concept not a factor. However after reading posts after
>Steve's it is quite apparent that some "Pro" anglers have
>posted that they have and are cheating their own system by
>networking with each other. It almost appears according to
>some of your own posts that it is more of an issue of the
>"pro" not wanting some "backwoods Johnnie" putting together
>the winning program, and getting the headlines. I'm just
>giving my opinion from the facts you guys are posting. If it's
>a Team concept, then the Pro's should fish together as a team
>in 1 division, and the co-anglers should fish together in
>another division. It will never happen and I'll tell you why.
>The Pro circuit would not want an Amature team outweigh them
>on the stage. It would put a big Black Eye on the Pro status,
>and it would make some sponsers open their eyes to different
>anglers. That would mean that some of the Pro's who haven't
>done squat in years, and we all know they exist, would lose
>the free ride. If that Money Well dried up how many of them
>would still be saying put up "your" money or shut up. Just my
>2 cents worth.
>
>
>Trophy ch.79

.. Trophy - Great Post ~ You Da Man!!! :)

[Trophy]

The money well I beleive does exist. There are appearance fees for seminars, discounted, and free equipment, And you can't tell me that some of these guys don't actually have some sponsors paying entry fees. As one of the other posts said the pro's have to rely on brother's, baitstore owners etc. for info. Well with today's electronics you might as well have them in the boat with you. What's the difference between a co-angler offering information, or somebody fishing the Cleveland stop, calling Denny at the Sportsman's Den, and him tel;ling the Pro the G.P.S. coordinates for a monster spot, pulling Rainbow Trout Reef Runners at 2.5 mph. 25'down. It just appears to me and apparently some others here that this rule and maybe the whole Pro/Am format my need changed. To make it an honest even playing field.

Trophy
ch.79

[Trophy]

The money well I beleive does exist. There are appearance fees for seminars, discounted, and free equipment, And you can't tell me that some of these guys don't actually have some sponsors paying entry fees. As one of the other posts said the pro's have to rely on brother's, baitstore owners etc. for info. Well with today's electronics you might as well have them in the boat with you. What's the difference between a co-angler offering information, or somebody fishing the Cleveland stop, calling Denny at the Sportsman's Den, and him tel;ling the Pro the G.P.S. coordinates for a monster spot, pulling Rainbow Trout Reef Runners at 2.5 mph. 25'down. It just appears to me and apparently some others here that this rule and maybe the whole Pro/Am format my need changed. To make it an honest even playing field.

Trophy
ch.79

[sevenmmm]

Trophy, never will a tournament be totally fair.

The idea of some Bass tournaments not allowing pre-fishing or talking with locals, may be the fairest rules, but still is no guarantee the slipery minded among us will not violate the rules to gain an advantage.

I also think this networking and sharing of information tilts the odds in favor of those who have been established the longest, and does take alot of the fairness out of the game.

But that said, it is what it is and the best frame of mind you can have when entering a tournament as an amateur, is to have no preconcieved ideas whatsoever. Just relax and enjoy the thrill of the contest, the experience of a fishing trip on an expensive rig, and conversation (I hope) with the person putting alot on the line to fish the tournament on the pro-side.

If you have ideas of drawing all the top seeds and catching limits of huge hog walleyes, you will be very dissappointed, as there are not enough of these folks to fill the roster. Besides this, most of the others that want a "shot" at gaining some prize money have worked hard, and if you give them a chance, may give you some different ideas on how to approach your favorite lake.

One part that is for certain about the whole affair, if you hesitate to throw your lot in the ring, you have the right emotional system to have the biggest thrill of your life should you enter.

Cause you never know what will happen to you!

[sevenmmm]

Trophy, never will a tournament be totally fair.

The idea of some Bass tournaments not allowing pre-fishing or talking with locals, may be the fairest rules, but still is no guarantee the slipery minded among us will not violate the rules to gain an advantage.

I also think this networking and sharing of information tilts the odds in favor of those who have been established the longest, and does take alot of the fairness out of the game.

But that said, it is what it is and the best frame of mind you can have when entering a tournament as an amateur, is to have no preconcieved ideas whatsoever. Just relax and enjoy the thrill of the contest, the experience of a fishing trip on an expensive rig, and conversation (I hope) with the person putting alot on the line to fish the tournament on the pro-side.

If you have ideas of drawing all the top seeds and catching limits of huge hog walleyes, you will be very dissappointed, as there are not enough of these folks to fill the roster. Besides this, most of the others that want a "shot" at gaining some prize money have worked hard, and if you give them a chance, may give you some different ideas on how to approach your favorite lake.

One part that is for certain about the whole affair, if you hesitate to throw your lot in the ring, you have the right emotional system to have the biggest thrill of your life should you enter.

Cause you never know what will happen to you!

[Trophy]

I understand what you are saying don't get me wrong. The problem I have with some of what the Pro side anglers are saying is that it's like the Amature's 500 plus bucks he throws in the ring don't mean squat, nor should it because he gets to fish with a Pro. To that I say Big deal! You and I have both been around this fishing game long enough to know, that a good portion of the pro's (and that does not mean all) are there because they can afford to be there, not because they earned, or deserve it. As for the knowledge gained you might pick up some tips, but most co-anglers are good serious fishermen. Finances are their holdback. With way it's set up now it's like going to Vegas putting 500 bucks on a Black Jack table and having somebody else play the hand for you.


Trophy
ch.79

[Trophy]

I understand what you are saying don't get me wrong. The problem I have with some of what the Pro side anglers are saying is that it's like the Amature's 500 plus bucks he throws in the ring don't mean squat, nor should it because he gets to fish with a Pro. To that I say Big deal! You and I have both been around this fishing game long enough to know, that a good portion of the pro's (and that does not mean all) are there because they can afford to be there, not because they earned, or deserve it. As for the knowledge gained you might pick up some tips, but most co-anglers are good serious fishermen. Finances are their holdback. With way it's set up now it's like going to Vegas putting 500 bucks on a Black Jack table and having somebody else play the hand for you.


Trophy
ch.79

[sevenmmm]

Yep, that BlackJack analogy is fitting.

You just may not be a good candidate for this position. It really is a shame there isn't a way to get the best of the best on the water, but it is restricted as the equipment to fish the circuit is very expensive.

Maybe someday, if the sport doesn't hit a wall because of the space needed to hold these events, it could evolve into a nascar type scenario, where high television revenue drives the money part of the business and equipment owners seek out the best of the best fisherman. That would be cool.

But as long as the tournament scene is driven by equipment sales to the participants (and future participants), it will be what it is.

Can tell you that I am one of those which you speak. Did not come up through the ranks, gaining sponsorship and contacts along the way, but was able to enter because of affording it (actually, I had a moment of weakness!).

But will tell you this much, having fished alot - just not under the extreme conditions of a tournament - it would have been very nice to have drawn an amateur such as yourself to help me reel in and net those walleyes!

[sevenmmm]

Yep, that BlackJack analogy is fitting.

You just may not be a good candidate for this position. It really is a shame there isn't a way to get the best of the best on the water, but it is restricted as the equipment to fish the circuit is very expensive.

Maybe someday, if the sport doesn't hit a wall because of the space needed to hold these events, it could evolve into a nascar type scenario, where high television revenue drives the money part of the business and equipment owners seek out the best of the best fisherman. That would be cool.

But as long as the tournament scene is driven by equipment sales to the participants (and future participants), it will be what it is.

Can tell you that I am one of those which you speak. Did not come up through the ranks, gaining sponsorship and contacts along the way, but was able to enter because of affording it (actually, I had a moment of weakness!).

But will tell you this much, having fished alot - just not under the extreme conditions of a tournament - it would have been very nice to have drawn an amateur such as yourself to help me reel in and net those walleyes!

[Trophy]

Rick:

I sure would love to have the chance to fish with you. If you ever get to Erie get in touch. Maybe you'll be coming to Erie for the P.W.T, or R.C.L. If you do let's hook up and pre-fish for a day. I don't know much, but I'm more than willing to learn I guess. Can I use my own stuff though?? I'm kind of partial to my Zebco 202, and Telescopic 8'6'' fiberglass rod. Is 25# test mono to heavy?? Do you have a stringer or do you want me to bring mine?? Let me know!!

P.S. we've beat this to death now, let's move on to the next debate!!


Trophy
ch.79

[bigfish1965]

Thank you Trophy for so eloquently stating what I was trying to mumble through.
Just look for the bright orange spray paint on the rocks!

[Trophy]

Bigfish, help me, what's the orange paint mean?? I'm lost.

[bigfish1965]

We'd go up north to our cottage as kids and our hotspots were marked on the rocks with dayglo orange paint.We did this between a bunch of friends around the lake. One year a tourney guy or two caught on.

[Trophy]

Duh. Ok now it registers. Our key as kids was always the places someone put Christmas trees on the ice.

[PWSR91]

When the am pays for half the boat half my entry fees, half my expences, half of every thing else you can think of and myself be assured it's not info he got from some one else he has fished with at that tournament then maybe I'll let him make half the decisions. Till then, It's my gig with your help. If we dont do well it's mostly my fault. Wanna go 50-50 fish mwc, mwt, wwa or some othe team event with your partner. Even then as experience has proven to me one guy still usually pays for every thing even in team events and then partner wants half of winnings. Personally I'd rather do it alone. I've netted ten pounders in big water for my self before while my am pukes last nights whiskey all over my boat. This is a subject that get's me goin, sorry boys and girls.
Now that I have my foot out of my mouth I agree once again with Steve.

Phil Wilson #91

[Trophy]

Your post adds more credibility to the "All about the PRO" scenario, which is why the Pro/and Am divisions should be split. Is all the cash taken in from the Am. division entries paid back? I doubt it. That being the case their entries are helping to sponsor the same pro who is saying they don't matter, it's all about me. How about the co-angler then fish for free in these events since it is considered to be such an honor to fish with the guru's of angling knowledge, and after all they really are just a spotter who had to pay 500 bucks for the priveledge to ride in a boat with the chosen ones. You may think that I'm really hashing this subject over sour grapes but the facts posted are straight from your mouths. I fish some small tourny's from time to time, and had some thoughts of fishing as a co-angler to learn more of the tourny format on the larger scale tours. I'm not so sure I want to now. Some of the posts from the "PRO" angler show to the TEE what I have heard from other co-anglers that there are some good guys on the tours, but there are a lot of "PRO'S" that would shove their mom over board to get to weigh her fish.

[PWSR91]

Never fails, I always get bashed for my opinion by some one hiding behind an alias. If you have a problem with the way we pros play then spend the 100 grand plus or minus and do it yourself.
Phil #91

[Trophy]

This whole post was about why the Ameture's do not get more input into the event. You were not slammed, at least by me anyway. I do not hide behind an alias, My name is Kevin Moses I have gone by the Trophy name for years. This debate was turned by the pro anglers or their supporters as an "It's all about us" conversation. Apparently this has struck a nerve. Could it be that maybe asking these questions could be causing the Pro side to Sweat? I challenge anyone to find where I have bashed a person in this post. Somes actions, maybe, but if something here in this post has angered anyone, maybe it is because deep down inside alot of the offended people may realize it's truth. As for the 100k you say you put up did you really put it up, or was some of that sponsor money, do you run a factory sponsored boat? are you footing the entire 100K? I find that really hard to believe.

Kevin Moses
Trophy

[ComeOn]

Come on folks... some of these posts do not deserve an honest answer. if this guy kevin doesn't get it... leave him alone and hopefully the post will go away. kevin, i have fished as an amatuer and showed up with a rain coat and a snack. most ams are able to extend the respect these pros deserve. you need to get a clue. the amount of preparation and expense that the pros go through is massive compared to the am partner. now, go sign up for a pro circuit and report back to us!

[Trophy]

My Questions don't deserve an honest answer?? I think I already do get it.

[sevenmmm]

Trophy!

Welcome to Walleye Central. Where every good and honest question deserves a good flaming!

Buddy, I feel your pain...

[Trophy]

Rick, are you going to be fishing the Lake Erie event this year out of Catawba?

[sevenmmm]

Nope.

With 3 boys coming into their college years, and unfinished cabin project, and trying to save some money for retirement, it has taken me out of any PWT event (or rather events - as you have to fish 3 to enter) for the time being.

The closest I am getting to you this year is an early August MWC contest at Saginaw Bay. If you live nearby, you should come and visit me - I'll take you fishing!

[Trophy]

Saginaw Bay is a little far for me. I live in N.W. Ohio, and have an extremely tight schedule between work, and Charter's. If you ever get down this way for an event, or business, let me know and we'll take my boat and go for the day.

[sevenmmm]

Ok. :-)

Thanx!