Positive move by the PWT

[Raybob]

...on their press releases :)

"amateur/co-angler"

now if they would just drop the be-littlin' amateur thingy ~ sure, there are probably a few in the field, but if you look closely the same could be said about both sides of the fence.

-anyhow, I think it is a move in the right direction & I made this post probably to be Cyber-dusted by the PC folks :)

[money]

The big difference is the money that the Pro has invested!

Am/Co comes and sits in someones boat for 3 days with all that someones equipment. Plus he pays less than half the entry.

The Pro has a huge up front investment> Boat with motors and elec. $1650 entry a week or so worth of gas in it lodging and any tackle and bait it takes.


If the person thinks he is better than the Pro field he or she should'nt be fishing as a Am/Co now should they?

[Raybob]

>The big difference is the money that the Pro has invested!
>

So true money, along with the extra time off work spent on the water pre-fishin' for the tourney, that adds even more to the Pro-side dollar costs. However skill puts fish in the boat, not luck, on a consistant bases & I'm certain that "most" on both sides of the fence have that as a common ability even if the co-anglers can't afford to play on the other side of the fence because of their fiscal responsiblities... I've just never cared for the Am tag hung on anyone cuz they didn't have the buck$ to play on the other side of the fence. In a sport like golf you can work your way up the money ladder if you have what it takes -- not true yet of our great sport of I-fishin', if ya get the drift :)

anyhow Hang-a-Hog money & I like the enlighten PWT approach to the non-boaters...

[money]

Why can't you work your way up the money ladder in fishing? Fish the local events on smaller curcuits and win the money needed to jump into the PWT. If infact you are good enough to be a PRO on the pWT you should have no trouble cleaning up on the smaller local level. SAVE the winnings and play with the big boys! Seems I always here Am/Co's saying they could do that, please step up and do just one on a body of water that you have never fished THEN tell me how good you are! FLW will let you in for less, come on out and fish one next year!

[prove it]

Nothing is stopping you from putting in an application to fish as a pro. If your credentials are worthy, you will be invited to fish and then you can let your fishing do the talking.

Most of you don't realize there's lots more to this game than just catching fish IF you want to be successful and have longevity in the sport. The time commitment and financial commitment is overwhelming to most. If you are single and independently wealthy you are already ahead of the game.


... someone who knows ...

[Toolman]

I have to agree with Raybob. On the PGA tour-nobody tells you where the birdies are and how to catch 'em ;-) Tournament payout is based strictly on performance. Performance is based strictly on individual scores. No help from any network. You're on your own-you vs the field.

It is very unlikely that you will make enough $$ on local circuits to finance a go at the PWT. I fish several with at least moderate success and I can't even come close to covering my expenses. Comparing the risk vs reward in entry vs payout for Pro/Co is apples to oranges.

[Eyez]

Fishing locally for the last 2 years, I'm money ahead, but it's not even enough to cover the costs of one PWT tournament. It's just not realistic to expect to win enough money locally to make a run at a higher level, the money has to come from elsewhere. Also, keep in mind, that as good as the PWT/FLW pros are, there are quite a few guys and gals who fish local circuits and tournaments who are just as difficult to beat. It's not a simple matter of "if you're good enough you should be able to clean up". It just doesn't work that way. There are lots of excellent fishermen who don't want to or can't afford to fish the PWT. To say that everyone who's that good is fishing the PWT or that everyone who's not fishing the PWT is inferior isn't really accurate.


Dusty

[Pond Scum unlogged]

Maybe I missed the point of Raybob's original post, but all that I gathered from it was that he thought it was nice that they were starting to call them co-anglers instead of just amateurs. I think it a little more respectful also, because there are many very good fishermen fishing as co-anglers, and they can contribute in a huge way to the success of the Pro. Wow, what a way to jump on a guy just for making an observation.

[ezmarc]

Scott, Nobody is as good at jerking chains as "Grey Panther" Raybob. He's put me on the spot more than once and I love every minute of it but probably not near as much as he does. He's probably running shad raps and rattletraps on Indian Lake at 7 MPH right now just cackling away with joy.

Coangler/Amateur: It's just a name. I know at least half the guys that have fished with me could compete as the driver.

[G. Gray]

I can tell you from experience, that all of us Pro's, would not be fishing a Pro-Am event, if it were not for the Co-Anglers.

I have had the opportunity to fish with a few co-anglers in the last 15 yrs, and if not for them, we, would not have a circut. These guys, and Gals, make it possible for the Pro's to fish such a elite circut. Many of the Co-Anglers, have moved up to fish the Pro side, and have been successful.

All I can say, is they have my utmost Respect, as they jump in the boat on Tournament day, give you their all, and say thank you at the end, I Personally, want to say " Thank You" to all the Co-Anglers, that I have had the pleasure to fish with, As well as the rest.

I do miss the competition this year, and God willing, I will be back next Season.

Gary Gray
NPAA #10

[crost]

Eyez has a great point. I fish the GNWC in a state where a few "pros" have stepped down to compete at their local level. And to be honest, they are just another team in the tournament. Sometimes they'll do well, sometimes they'll bomb. But certainly, they don't run away from the field like a pro golfer would in an "amateur" tourney.

"Amateur",yeah, I fished as an amateur once. The guys I fished with were all professionals. One was a professional contractor, one was a professional mechanic, and the other was a professional gas station owner. All three chose to pay the big bucks and fish on the pro side of the tournament.

In my eyes, there really is no such thing as a pro walleye fisherman. Yes, people compete for a lot of money, but it's still not the same as baseball, golf etc.. It's all about information. The well connected pros do well.

One last thought. If the FLW and the RCL are "professional" circuits, then what are the wwa, gnwc, masters? Are they amateur tounaments? Are they professional tourneys? Minor leagues? Semi-pro? Let's get this straight so I can order my official fishing status badge.

[eyezforcash]

Websters defines professional as.

"One who is engaged in an activity for pay"

So I guess, anyone who enters a tournament either as a "Pro" or an "amateur/coangler" is a truly a professional in the sense of the word.

HMMMM.. such rhetoric..

[jigstop]

If there is a trolling bite the skill of the ameture/co-angler doesn't matter one bit in the outcome of the tournament. If there is a jigging bite then there skill does matter. When it is a trolling bite the ameture/co-angler is basically going along for a boat ride and there to keep the pro honest, nothing more and nothing less.

[correct]

You are correct...If you can win money you are a "pro". But in the PWT, you are an "am" if you are entered on the "am" side. The "am's" can't win money in the PWT...Those same "ams" my enter other tournaments for money, but they are not "PWT Pros" until they enter the "Pro" side.

It's not a slam on the "am's" abilities, it's simply a separate division/field...If you want to be considered a "pro" because you've won money in other tournaments, there's nothing wrong with that...

[Disagree]

I have to disagree. While the Pro does find the fish and determine what baits to use, the AM is expected to take an active role. Generally the AM reels the fish and the Pro nets. You're in an unfamiliar boat using different equipment than yours, ie; rods, line etc. You have to adapt to this particular Pro's technique as to where he wants the fish when he nets it. You are expected to contribute to the day and not sit there like a lump.

[fishingislife]

How much adaptation does it take to stand up, keep the rod at a specific angle, and reel? I think you're looking for too much credit.

[Juls_OH]

I have to agree with "Disagree", because the Co's that fish with me are "hands on" in all phases of the trolling game. Setting lines, reeling fish, netting, and keeping a positive attitude. My Co's take an active role, and we communicate with each other the entire time during the processes. We work as a team for the day, and it makes it much more enjoyable for both of us.

In the morning before take off, I find out what my Co's strong points and weaknesses are, and we work it out from there.

When I fished as a Co Angler, all the Pros I fished with were the same way. But, I didn't fish with all the Pros out there, so I can't comment on what ALL Pros do in the boat with their Co's.

Just relating my experiences....

Juls

[jigstop]

If I understand the PWT's rules on ametures they are not allowed to even suggest tactics to the pros they are fishing with. In other word they can not even say "I think we should try this lure at 100ft. behind the board instead of 75ft." So they are only allowed to do exactly as the pro tells them to do. Yes they may help set the rod, reel in fish, and net the fish, but they are not allowed to think for themselves. They may pick up some tips from the pro which is a good thing but they are not allowed to really bring anything to the table in the way of there techniques. Like I said before, they are there to keep the pro honest.

[Juls_OH]

That's correct and the way it should be. My point was, it's more than a "boat ride".

Juls

[TP180]

Well, I had an interesting experience earlier this year. I love to fish and fish a lot of tournaments as the Co/am because I also love to learn.

I fished Green Bay on a Sunday during the FLW league event. Then I fished Green Bay for 4 days the following Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat in the FLW tour. Since I was going to be on that particular body of water for so many days, I decided to sign up for the MWS tourament on the next day, a Sunday. The MWS is not a pro/am event, so I asked a guy at work who loves to fish but does not get out much.

Well, as you pros know, attention to detail is everything. My partner was not experienced in trolling and I wanted him to learn, so I let him run his side of the boat. In this tourament, we could run 6 lines. If I get a fish on the outside line, I move rod #2 to the front rod holder, #3 to the #2 spot and let my line out in the inside position when resetting. My partner would jump the #3 rod to the #1 position and in doing so, crossed his lines and had to reset everything.

Other little things like not putting pliers, bait boxes, etc back where he found them so you are not looking around the boat the next time you need something, letting his bait dangle off the end of the rod so it would snag up other rods, etc caused me some frustration. So I learned a new respect for the pros who fish with someone new every day, not knowing how much experience that person has until you really start fishing.

I also learned that a co/am certainly CAN impact the days catch even when trolling. I think you are big help if you can read a board as the pro is often driving and maneuvering around other boats and not always able to watch the lines. You can help if you know how to run linecounters, attach boards, etc. The pro has a system and you can help if you just follow the system.

[love them eyes guy]

"Pro's" come and they go! The TRUE Pro's have stood the test of time, always in the game! The true Pro's have the big time sponsors that they have earned and work VERY hard to make them happy! Sure it's big money but these guys are VERY good on all types of waters not just the one they fish the most. Sure they have groups, they work hard to find a bite and stay one step ahead of the fish.

20-60 boat fields on a local curcuit are NO where near the same as a 120-150 boat field of anglers that fish all over the country and have been there and done that! I'm sure there are few guys out there that if they had the money could do well on the PWT or FLW, however it is fewer than most think! This is a tough game and few last long enough to establish the "True Professional" Status.

Co/Am are a big part of this game, without them there would'nt be tours of this caliber. Team events are way different, having the same guy or gal that you know well in the boat with you everyday! I fish the largest Team tour and its tough enough fishing against 150 local teams, some top Pros and Teams that have fished these same waters for years. I have also fished Pro/Am events, its not even close to the same thing! One day you could get a good fishermen the next someone who just wants to sit there or wants to do something else (different program). There is ZERO pressure on a Co/Am, its not you're equipment or program it's the Pro's. Give the Pro the best you have and hopfully you will have a good day, if not hopfully you learn something you can take with you!

You can't hire a guide for 3 days for $500-$750 so sit back and take in everything they have to offer, if you did'nt learn something everyday then you missed something!

[eyezforcash]

I mostly like to sit quitly and watch everybody on this board.... but.
I fish in a lot of team tournaments where I get to pick my partner and have gone through a long learnig curve with my partners,eventually getting to know each others every move before we make it.
I have also fished as an amatuer and a pro in different events. I will tell you that fishing seems to fall right in with the rest of life, there are good people and bad.. pros or ams.
I think my biggest frustration as an amatuer was that my pro didnt want to help me learn how to fish his way. I was told once to sit down and dont do anything unless I tell you to. I dont care how much money a pro has invested in the tournament, The pros need to try and make the tournament a great learning experience or ams will soon stop participating, then where will we be.
My biggest frustration as a pro has been getting an am who is not prepared, doesnt take my instruction, doesnt ask questions, doesnt keep the boat clean and orderly, doesnt concentrate and gives up on the day.
I think everyone needs to realize that once upon a time we started having tounaments to have FUN!!!

I hope anyone looking at this board and contemplating a amateur position on a tournament will understand that 90% of the interaction experiences that I have had with ams and pros has been incredibly positive.