View Full Version : Just an idea....Championship fish-off?
Corey Bohn
10-13-2005, 12:54 AM
Now that the tournament season is pretty much over and it won't be long before we're staring at ice, I thought I'd throw this out there for everyone to chew on. The PWT and the FLW recently crowned their 2005 Walleye Champions with each circuit claiming to essentially be the top walleye circuit in the world. How about a fish-off? PWT Champion vs. the FLW Champion in a two or three day winner take all. Seems to me that walleye fishing somewhat lags behind when compared to the bass fishing circuits and the overall concept. I would think that between the PWT and the FLW and their sponsors that an utltimate champion could be crowned. Just a thought.
Corey Bohn
10-13-2005, 12:54 AM
Now that the tournament season is pretty much over and it won't be long before we're staring at ice, I thought I'd throw this out there for everyone to chew on. The PWT and the FLW recently crowned their 2005 Walleye Champions with each circuit claiming to essentially be the top walleye circuit in the world. How about a fish-off? PWT Champion vs. the FLW Champion in a two or three day winner take all. Seems to me that walleye fishing somewhat lags behind when compared to the bass fishing circuits and the overall concept. I would think that between the PWT and the FLW and their sponsors that an utltimate champion could be crowned. Just a thought.
john mannerino
10-13-2005, 06:54 AM
Sounds like a good idea but I think it should be expanded to include a few more circuits. It would get more attention.
john mannerino
10-13-2005, 06:54 AM
Sounds like a good idea but I think it should be expanded to include a few more circuits. It would get more attention.
Raybob
10-13-2005, 10:54 AM
Sounds like a good idea here also & would be great for fan interest ... Wait now ~ how would you handle the cross-overs "if" it was one & the same for both circuits/tours?
Raybob
10-13-2005, 10:54 AM
Sounds like a good idea here also & would be great for fan interest ... Wait now ~ how would you handle the cross-overs "if" it was one & the same for both circuits/tours?
Juls_OH
10-13-2005, 11:13 AM
"PWT Champion vs. the FLW Champion in a two or three day winner take all."
Winner take all of what? Who's putting up the cash in your imaginary tournament?
Just wondering...
Juls
Juls_OH
10-13-2005, 11:13 AM
"PWT Champion vs. the FLW Champion in a two or three day winner take all."
Winner take all of what? Who's putting up the cash in your imaginary tournament?
Just wondering...
Juls
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 11:14 AM
and who would run it?
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 11:14 AM
and who would run it?
K Gonefishin
10-13-2005, 01:47 PM
Nobody would put it on nor would anyone need to run it there is only two boats. If each series champ wanted to do it they could do it against each other to see who really is the best of the world not just one circuit. It would be up to them not us. I know one thing if I won the FLW or PWT Championship I would call the other winner and say let's do a 2 dayer on our agreed favorite water, or better yet in the spirit of competetive angling fish together for a day and talk about great year.
K Gonefishin
10-13-2005, 01:47 PM
Nobody would put it on nor would anyone need to run it there is only two boats. If each series champ wanted to do it they could do it against each other to see who really is the best of the world not just one circuit. It would be up to them not us. I know one thing if I won the FLW or PWT Championship I would call the other winner and say let's do a 2 dayer on our agreed favorite water, or better yet in the spirit of competetive angling fish together for a day and talk about great year.
Raybob
10-13-2005, 02:01 PM
"or better yet in the spirit of competetive angling fish together for a day and talk about great year"
Now that would be the number rated Walleye show on TV if a camera-man was in the boat for that day! :)
FLW/ESPN/In-fish/Whoever ~ take note!!!
Raybob
10-13-2005, 02:01 PM
"or better yet in the spirit of competetive angling fish together for a day and talk about great year"
Now that would be the number rated Walleye show on TV if a camera-man was in the boat for that day! :)
FLW/ESPN/In-fish/Whoever ~ take note!!!
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 02:07 PM
if noboby runs it how would you even know it took place?
someone has to promote it, cover it, come up with prize money or whatever, etc, etc.
this stuff just doesnt happen by itself. It would just be 2 guys fishing then ;)
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 02:07 PM
if noboby runs it how would you even know it took place?
someone has to promote it, cover it, come up with prize money or whatever, etc, etc.
this stuff just doesnt happen by itself. It would just be 2 guys fishing then ;)
Corey Bohn
10-13-2005, 03:26 PM
K Gonefishin and Raybob, those were precisely the type of comments I was looking for. While an ultimate fish-off featuring a pile of money may possibly be doable, the sport would benefit most from precisely what K Gonefishin proposed...."A Champions Day on the Water". I work in the media portion of the outdoor industry and am an avid walleye angler and tournament angler myself. As the original post of mine stated in the headline "Just an idea....." The purpose was to gain thoughts and opinions as to how the sport could best be promoted by these two champions, and as K Gonefishin pointed out, it doesn't have to be complicated, because in the spirit of competitive fishing, these two champions on the water and in the boat together, could do more for walleye fishing than any high stakes fish-off. Phone calls will be made and if it comes to fruition, I'll post it on walleyecentral. If it happens, the Outdoor Channel will be the most likely venue, with springtime being the most likely time for airing.
Thanks for your input.
Corey Bohn
10-13-2005, 03:26 PM
K Gonefishin and Raybob, those were precisely the type of comments I was looking for. While an ultimate fish-off featuring a pile of money may possibly be doable, the sport would benefit most from precisely what K Gonefishin proposed...."A Champions Day on the Water". I work in the media portion of the outdoor industry and am an avid walleye angler and tournament angler myself. As the original post of mine stated in the headline "Just an idea....." The purpose was to gain thoughts and opinions as to how the sport could best be promoted by these two champions, and as K Gonefishin pointed out, it doesn't have to be complicated, because in the spirit of competitive fishing, these two champions on the water and in the boat together, could do more for walleye fishing than any high stakes fish-off. Phone calls will be made and if it comes to fruition, I'll post it on walleyecentral. If it happens, the Outdoor Channel will be the most likely venue, with springtime being the most likely time for airing.
Thanks for your input.
jr unlogged
10-13-2005, 03:48 PM
While the idea may sound nice to some, I have a big problem with it. The biggest problem in tournament fishing right now is the lack of money that is available from sponsors and tournament winnings. There simply are too many wide-eyed individuals who volunteer to do things just for a couple of lures or a rod or two. I believe it would be a cold day in hexx when a named touring pro, fresh from winning a championship, without any guaranteed money up front, would fish such an event. There has to be something promised. The days of doing things for free or near free are over.
jr unlogged
10-13-2005, 03:48 PM
While the idea may sound nice to some, I have a big problem with it. The biggest problem in tournament fishing right now is the lack of money that is available from sponsors and tournament winnings. There simply are too many wide-eyed individuals who volunteer to do things just for a couple of lures or a rod or two. I believe it would be a cold day in hexx when a named touring pro, fresh from winning a championship, without any guaranteed money up front, would fish such an event. There has to be something promised. The days of doing things for free or near free are over.
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 04:27 PM
well if you have a way of promoting it than thats a different story.
bring it on
;)
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 04:27 PM
well if you have a way of promoting it than thats a different story.
bring it on
;)
jr unlogged
10-13-2005, 04:40 PM
I do not have a way for promoting it, nor do I propose an idea. I just believe there is already way too much being done by tournament fisherman for nothing. And this is another example of just that: something for nothing. Our time is worth more than nothing. And I am definitely not the only person who feels this way. This type of thinking where doing something for nothing was talked about exclusively at the last NPAA annual meeting and, in my opinion, should be avoided, if not condemmed, by all tournament anglers.
jr unlogged
10-13-2005, 04:40 PM
I do not have a way for promoting it, nor do I propose an idea. I just believe there is already way too much being done by tournament fisherman for nothing. And this is another example of just that: something for nothing. Our time is worth more than nothing. And I am definitely not the only person who feels this way. This type of thinking where doing something for nothing was talked about exclusively at the last NPAA annual meeting and, in my opinion, should be avoided, if not condemmed, by all tournament anglers.
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 05:08 PM
I was responding to Corey since he said he had an idea.
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 05:08 PM
I was responding to Corey since he said he had an idea.
Corey Bohn
10-13-2005, 05:21 PM
The two respective champions would not be expected to do this on their time and their dime. To make it happen there would need to be a neutral sponsor to cover the cost of producing a show, and to make it worth their time. It may or may not be feasible to do a show as such or a winner-take-all tournament because both anglers may feel its more beneficial to enjoy their separate titles, and may infringe upon endorsement and contractual clauses. The fact of the matter is, both individuals are recognized as the top walleye angler in the world for 2005-06, and will both stand to gain a fairly substantial financial windfall with new sponsors and endorsements, etc., above and beyond their championship earnings. It may or may not be possible to get both anglers together in the same boat and to reflect back on a great year of fishing in a fishing show format, or to compete head to head in a winner take all tournament. What I liked about K Gonefishin's idea is that it's a lot less complicated, and that if both anglers can be compensated to make it worth their while to get in a boat together, and it benefits the sport, then that's a good thing. Heck, stick both champions on a charter boat on Lake Erie with a charter captain where they can land 10-lb. after 10-lb. walleye and talk about fishing, the future of the sport, and the need to get the next generation of anglers involved. As Raybob stated, it would make for a great fishing show. On the same note, a winner take all tournament is not out of the question or far-fetched, but would it take away from either anglers accomplishment of winning their respective championship? Right now, they both have a good thing going. If there were a winner take all tournament, would sponsors wait for the ultimate champion to be crowned at the expense of the other angler who just won either the PWT or FLW championship? You say there wouldn't be sponsor interest because there would be just 2 boats, but is there not direct head-to-head competitions within the BASS circuit with some mighty big paydays on the line? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't VanDam fish in one this past year? Personally, I'd like to see more money involved and I don't have all the answers, but I think there's the potential to do something very good for the sport if both champions can come together for a common cause, if nothing else, to promote walleye fishing. And yes, they deserve to be compensated because they fished their rear-ends off to get to where they are. Either way, I think it represents an intriguing and interesting scenario whether it be a fishing show featuring both anglers together, or a final payday on the water.
Corey Bohn
10-13-2005, 05:21 PM
The two respective champions would not be expected to do this on their time and their dime. To make it happen there would need to be a neutral sponsor to cover the cost of producing a show, and to make it worth their time. It may or may not be feasible to do a show as such or a winner-take-all tournament because both anglers may feel its more beneficial to enjoy their separate titles, and may infringe upon endorsement and contractual clauses. The fact of the matter is, both individuals are recognized as the top walleye angler in the world for 2005-06, and will both stand to gain a fairly substantial financial windfall with new sponsors and endorsements, etc., above and beyond their championship earnings. It may or may not be possible to get both anglers together in the same boat and to reflect back on a great year of fishing in a fishing show format, or to compete head to head in a winner take all tournament. What I liked about K Gonefishin's idea is that it's a lot less complicated, and that if both anglers can be compensated to make it worth their while to get in a boat together, and it benefits the sport, then that's a good thing. Heck, stick both champions on a charter boat on Lake Erie with a charter captain where they can land 10-lb. after 10-lb. walleye and talk about fishing, the future of the sport, and the need to get the next generation of anglers involved. As Raybob stated, it would make for a great fishing show. On the same note, a winner take all tournament is not out of the question or far-fetched, but would it take away from either anglers accomplishment of winning their respective championship? Right now, they both have a good thing going. If there were a winner take all tournament, would sponsors wait for the ultimate champion to be crowned at the expense of the other angler who just won either the PWT or FLW championship? You say there wouldn't be sponsor interest because there would be just 2 boats, but is there not direct head-to-head competitions within the BASS circuit with some mighty big paydays on the line? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't VanDam fish in one this past year? Personally, I'd like to see more money involved and I don't have all the answers, but I think there's the potential to do something very good for the sport if both champions can come together for a common cause, if nothing else, to promote walleye fishing. And yes, they deserve to be compensated because they fished their rear-ends off to get to where they are. Either way, I think it represents an intriguing and interesting scenario whether it be a fishing show featuring both anglers together, or a final payday on the water.
jr unlogged
10-13-2005, 05:32 PM
Okay.....my bad PJ.
jr unlogged
10-13-2005, 05:32 PM
Okay.....my bad PJ.
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 05:36 PM
no biggie
your concerns about it do provoke some thought though.
perchjerker
10-13-2005, 05:36 PM
no biggie
your concerns about it do provoke some thought though.
NPAA should do it...top ten from each tour face off for all the marbles...need all the big companies to throw some in the kitty cause they all win...Run it in the morning of the superbowl on the Outdoor Channel....No prefishing, find out where your fishing when you get off the bus....no working together...the best guy wins....
NPAA should do it...top ten from each tour face off for all the marbles...need all the big companies to throw some in the kitty cause they all win...Run it in the morning of the superbowl on the Outdoor Channel....No prefishing, find out where your fishing when you get off the bus....no working together...the best guy wins....
K Gonefishin
10-14-2005, 08:28 AM
Hey I actually had a good idea, I look at things from a simple perspective and since I have only fished FLW as a CO and a couple local tourney's my life of walleye fishing hasn't been spoiled with prize money or endorcements and I just have a passion for fishing and having fun with good people when doing it. I liked the idea of the NPAA putting something like this on since they are neutral in the way they support all pro anglers not just one tour. I also liked the idea of just having a show even with a host of a show that does air on OLN or the outdoor channel or even ESPN. Just something to give credit to where credit is due to a couple of the world's best tournament anglers and love for the sport. This would be something cool but as we all know some of these guys won't even leave the house unless there is 100K up for grabs, in my opinion that sucks they should just SHUT UP AND FISH. like the rest of us and have fun doing it. Remember guys we are walleye fisherman not the CEO of Microsoft. Regardless of the number of endorcements you get or how many free hats and crankbaits you get your still just a walleye fisherman. I don't see where the cockiness comes from on some of these guys it's not like your Tom Cruize or Brett Favre we fish for walleye no matter how cool we think we are in the whole scheme of things across the world we only matter to 15% of the population, that why we should do whatever we can to make us heard across the US, even if it requires you paying for a good time with good people.
Good posts guys keep the ideas coming.
K on the side
K Gonefishin
10-14-2005, 08:28 AM
Hey I actually had a good idea, I look at things from a simple perspective and since I have only fished FLW as a CO and a couple local tourney's my life of walleye fishing hasn't been spoiled with prize money or endorcements and I just have a passion for fishing and having fun with good people when doing it. I liked the idea of the NPAA putting something like this on since they are neutral in the way they support all pro anglers not just one tour. I also liked the idea of just having a show even with a host of a show that does air on OLN or the outdoor channel or even ESPN. Just something to give credit to where credit is due to a couple of the world's best tournament anglers and love for the sport. This would be something cool but as we all know some of these guys won't even leave the house unless there is 100K up for grabs, in my opinion that sucks they should just SHUT UP AND FISH. like the rest of us and have fun doing it. Remember guys we are walleye fisherman not the CEO of Microsoft. Regardless of the number of endorcements you get or how many free hats and crankbaits you get your still just a walleye fisherman. I don't see where the cockiness comes from on some of these guys it's not like your Tom Cruize or Brett Favre we fish for walleye no matter how cool we think we are in the whole scheme of things across the world we only matter to 15% of the population, that why we should do whatever we can to make us heard across the US, even if it requires you paying for a good time with good people.
Good posts guys keep the ideas coming.
K on the side
K
You have any idea what it costs to fish a tour? Around 20k is what I figure for the FLW thats with everything. Shut up and fish? Are you for real? Tom and Brett get payed HUGE money to do what they do. If Tom gets 10 million a movie (even if its a flop) and Breet gets 7 million this year even if he breaks his leg why should'nt we expect more? I have only seen 20% of Tom's movies and watch 10% of Bretts games, but the sponsors are lined up paying these guys millions to say Coke is the best drink. Fishing is a billion dollar a year business and the anglers that promote it are the worst payed players in any game! Ever wonder why every year a couple new tours pop up? There is money to be made! Only thing is everyone but the anglers themselfs are making the money. I'm wondering who is going to help me pay my way next year out on the tour? Brett has ZREO costs to play all his equipment is covered as are his meals and rooms and even his trans... to games. I understand that it's "Pro" football and it's comericalized on TV, but they also spent the money being made to get it where it is today. The compaines in this industry will never lose money, they infact turn the money or product that they give right back into the prices on the items. Much like say Coke 99% water $1.19 a bottle. Avertisment cost is 70% of the price and 5% cost for product and 30% right into pocket. Problem is guys won't walk away from anything free or at a discount, so companies have the rules set. Never give something away when 500 guys are lined up to get 10% off the product and do all the promo work the company wants.
Toolman
10-14-2005, 10:40 AM
OK-
To answer your question "why shouldn't we expect more"? K already answered it. "...we only matter to 15% of the population...". Probably overestimated...probably closer to 1.5% of the population.
It doesn't always HAVE to be about the money, but something like what he suggested COULD be, if a corporation thinks they can back it with potential gain to their company.
K Gonefishin
10-14-2005, 11:13 AM
Yea I think you misunderstood my point. All I am trying to say is that we are just fisherman. I do know how much it costs to be a touring pro because I would like to be one one day if at all possible. I fished the FLW tourney on Erie with entry fee and the cost to live in port clinton for 7 days costs me about 1200.00 for this time period. The pros that I fished with told me that it is darn near impossible to make money being a walleye pro. Take for example Nick Johnson he won the championship last year and won Bull Shoals the first tourney of the year okay that's 390K because he is a Ranger guy. After taxes on that money plus the cost of a new 620 for two years of tour and a truck to pull the boat 4 months or more out of work, gas, tackle, hotels, and other expences tour plus entry fees, in this 2 year period plus other winning what do you think he has left after all this? Even if you win one event per year (ranger guy) your income is only 90K and after expences your not even a middle class individual so what's the point....passion for the sport and the thrill of victory. The pros who I was partnered with said all money going out and not much coming in..most guys that are pros have great jobs and alot of the ones I met own busineses FACT so they do it just because they have the time and money. bottom line. Now don't get me wrong guys like Keith and Gary or Kevin Van #### HUGE sponsors, tv shows, dvd's all the cool stuff those guys are doing it awesome but we are talking about 1% of the pros out there they are an exeption to makeing money on tour if they win or not. I hope this doesn't turn into a I know everything post with a bunch of people who think they know the entire deal across the board, but it will becuase it's WC
Fishing Insider
10-14-2005, 11:29 AM
The reason so many tournament circuits are out there is because people can do it as a hobby. All but a handful have full-time jobs and run tournaments because they like it, not because they are making any serious money at it. Only a very small number of them get any sponsor cash at all.
There are anglers in this industry that are making more money by a long shot than even the full-time tournament directors. Walleye tournament fishing is a very small industry but if you have the desire to really work at it you can make a good living. You will never get rich in walleye tournament fishing, so if you think there is any comparison between the money a walleye pro is ever going to make and an NFL pro, you are going to be VERY disappointed.
Sorry I'm not buying that. Billion dollars in sales of items in this market and there is no interest? Lets just take pool as an example, less people play competive pool than fish in this country but I see it on ESPN like its a huge sport.
Boat racing on TV, just how many people are into that? Problem is like I said the industry does'nt have to put money up front on the sport, they just give a bunch of guys peanuts to promote it.
Prime example: Mr Linder, he has done more for the sport than anyone. I never saw him signing a $40 mil. contract with some company. I'm sure he has made a huge living off of all the work he has put forth but not what other professional have. You think womans golf is bigger in this country than fishing? I see some 15 year old is getting 10 mil. to turn pro. The problem is not the sport it's what people are willing to take to compete in the sport. The top 1% of all anglers make a good living doing this, they work very hard at it. These guys are at the call of there sponsors, meaning when ever where ever they say. You might want to look at the profit margins of some companies in this industry before you say it does'nt matter. Compaines like Brunswick would'nt be buying up everything if there was'nt HUGE money to be made at all anglers expense. I'm not saying they have to pay everyone that fishes but the people out there doing all the leg work on the promo side are not getting anywhere near there worth! Some of these guys put in 1000's of hours at shows , seminars and other events pumping product for compaines and getting very little in return. There is no profit sharing or health ins. or pension plan, just hopefully the next years events payed for. SALES show that there is interest in the sport and continued growth in sales tells me that the market is getting bigger or atleast more expensive to market and it's not getting any easier to get money or product when you are in the top level of this game.
K Gonefishin
10-14-2005, 11:44 AM
I agree I know my W-2 is alot more than alot of guys on tour and I am home with my friends and family 100% of the year. It is easy for us to say just being the weekend guys. I would love for walleye fishing to explode like Bass fishing did. I have a huge bass pro shops sticky on my SUV and I have guys stopping me to talk about Mike the Ike and Van #### ohh yea they know sunday at 11 EST FLW is on and those are the guys they see not Nick Johson or Tommy Skarlis. I talk to these regular tv viewers and they don't even know there is a walleye side to the tour it sucks I know but there arent walleye waters across the US like there is Bass everyone knows about Bass fishing unfortunatly we will never become as big in regards to tv and other media coverage but for the mid west portion of the USA we are something. So let's roll with what we have and make the best of it. I fish Erie and there is a tourney every weekend it seems like some where and it's great. But I also know on every inland lake there is a Redman or some other series every weekend. Hey Bass are for guys who can't catch Walleye. No pun intended I fished for bass since I was a kid I might even be a better bass angler than walleye but in my opinion it's not that hard anymore. I love the challenge of the ol marble eyes.
I like the idea of the winner's of the 2 major circuits producing a show together, but the fish-off to determine an overall winner doesn't seem that significant to me. Mainly because it would not be repeatable.
In the Walleye tournaments nobody dominates. I don't think I could think of any year when there was even 1 angler that finished (in even) the top 10 in each event. If an angler wins 2 events in 1 year, it's referred to as dominance.
You could even argue the focus should be on the Angler of the year, instead of the Championship winner.
For that matter, it would be interesting to see a non-competitive get together after all championships are complete, where the anglers just get together and just enjoy fishing - HAVING FUN!
To a certain extent - that is what Pine Falls, MB in October has become. Lots of Pro's, enjoying what they enjoy doing - fishing. And lots of non-pro's, enjoying their company. Pro's bring up their sponsors and spend some time in the boat with them, and some shows get filmed there each fall. It's just a good wrap up in a non-competitive enjoyable atmosphere.
If you want to really get after it and hit the water at the crack of 10:30 - well that's fine too!
jr unlogged
10-14-2005, 03:02 PM
I fail to see what you refer to as the cockiness here. My statement is simple: as a professional in the fishing industry and some one wishes to achieve a state where I rely solely on fishing, working with sponsors, and speaking engagements as my source of income, I believe that my time, along with the time of other tournament fisherman who desire the same, has a specific value, and that doing things for free or next to free are out of the question. I'm not asking for $100K just to leave the house. This is no different than you or anyone else going to their professional venues, and I understand, from a fan's standpoint where you are coming from. But to expect professionals to do things for free for your entertainment is not a reasonable expectation.
K Gonefishin
10-14-2005, 04:36 PM
No I was just saying that some of these guys are cocky Ohh I know who a bunch of them are also I seen it first hand at the FLW tourney this spring and I was just saying some are cocky and have no reason to act that way....dude your a fisherman come on I don't care what kind of boat you have or who pays you to do what you fish for a living. No punn intended to any fisherman or walleye guy on here didnt mean it like that at all. Sorry if it came across a little weird. That comment had nothing to do with doing things for free everyone is trying to peddle something to better themselves including me have at it boys but have fun doing it.
jr unlogged
10-15-2005, 03:46 AM
Absolutely!!!! If it isn't any fun it's not worth doing in the end. I agree.
Powerdive
10-25-2005, 09:32 PM
Here's another idea, from a few months back...
PWT Unplugged
What about a walleye tourney done "throwback" style, where you take the Top 50 PWT guys and put 'em on an unknown lake with identical 14' resort boats with a seat cushion, an anchor, a 15 hp pull-start tiller and no electronics of any kind? Not even a map to go by. Wouldn't that be a hoot?
I'll bet these guys would proceed to catch the snot out of 'em--but then again, maybe everyone's gotten a little soft these last few decades...
winner
10-26-2005, 08:08 AM
That sounds like a fun one. I'd put money on ONE guy....but he hasn't fished the PWT in awhile. He can just smell em....Bob Sr... nuff said.
I think he still fishes out of a 14' resort boat....hehehe..