sewer vs boat vs.tree

[Scooter]

Well here is a problem that will make every home owner think!
I was about to purchase a new boat at a great price and was given the chance to join a pro staff.But as my luck goes cant happen now.I found out much to my dismay that my sewer picked now to back up!Not that big of a deal I caught it early and figured roto rooter would fix it!So take the day off of work to meet the plumber,cool a day off is always nice.
The plumber shows up with the machine and goes straight to work,and I give this guy credit as he busted his butt to clear the line.But 4-1/2 hours later and $500.00 poorer there is still water backing up and his thing can not go past 50 ft.in the lateral line.He figures the line is broke, so ok we go out side and measure how far we figure the bad area is.Dang it if it doesnt put right underneath the city tree between the sidewalk and the road.
Ok call the City Sewer Dept. they say not their problem.They are only resposible for the main even if the lateral is under the road.When asked what they feel the problem was? answer the tree.So I call the Forestry Dept.Ask the Forestry Dept.to please get their tree out of my sewer line.Also asked them to fix problem tree has caused!
The answer almost baffles me,It seems that a tree can not damage a
pipe it is not possible for this tree to be the cause.So then the
Forestry Dept.says the pipe had to be damaged prior to this
happening.In the same breath she says have you used copper sulfate to keep tree roots out of sewer line.I said I thought that would kill
the tree and that I would get in trouble for that.No answer,So I said that I can not recall any earth quakes in the Milwaukee area or any
major thaws or any other ground moving events ever!When I said this
to the Forestry Dept.the person said pipes just break! I agree poop
happens but what are the chances of a pipe breaking directly under a
tree and the tree being blameless?.
Also sewer and water back up policy with insurance doesnt cover
repair of line.
Any way there goes the money for the boat to fix plumbing
wife isnt going to let two loans fly.

[chadk66]

Hold on just a minute. I have been a contractor for quite a few years and here are a few things I know about. First of all I have fixed tons of sewer pipes that have more darn roots growing through them than you could imagine. I've also seen roots grow right through cracks in foundations. Secondly, I'd check a little closer with the city on the situation. Up here, once that sewer pipe hits the boulevard, what I mean by that is the sidewalk, it is the cities baby. They own the area from the boulevard to the main. It's no different than with the water. They own from the shut off to the water main. I bet your shut off is located in your yard about where the boulevard ends. So get after the Forestry service about the tree. Make a deal with them that if you dig it up and show them that there are roots growing through the pipe that they pay. Just my two cents worth.

[Scooter]

Thanks thats what I thought too but so far I have struck out.I thought of contacting a lawyer,but why pay them even more money in what might be a losening battle anyway.That just puts the new boat that much farther out of reach.
I havent ruled it out all together yet.The plumber says it is $8800.00 to fix problem.And it is not like I have alot of time to fix problem I dont want the poop to hit the fan if you know what I mean.

[gq]

ask the city for a written copy of their policies on utilities--water and sewer, many cities have provisions for tennants whom service laterals become plugged and cannot be opened by a contractor--roto rooter etc.--if you can get some drainage you may want your line televised to pinpoint your problem---your problem sounds like it is at the transion where your 4" sewer line is tied to the 6" stub off the sewer main line-- that connection was made by a contractor--however it would have been inspected by a city inspector if this connection is a problem area you would have some fuel to throw on the fire--if the 6" stub off the main line is full of roots---i dout very much your pipe is broke--the stub was installed by city--remeber the squeaky wheel gets the grease----boat for scooter.......

[With much love]

It is with much love and sympathy that I say, this is typical for being Stupid enough to live in the Milwaukee area. I dealt with this type of foo for too many years before I bashed my head, saw the light and moved out of the state!! Best thing I ever did.

[Hookem]

If you can't get a camera on it sometimes if you talk real nice the power company can hook on to the rrooter snake and locate the exact end. Saving time and money and landscape finding the problem. :( bummer

[spampy]

I agree definately get a plumber with a camera. I wouldnt agree to pay $8800 on a hunch. The tree probally will have to go anyway to fix it. If its on city property they may have to remove it for you or at least give you the okay. These things suck, is it orangeburg pipe ?if so replace it all. Do it right and never mess with it again.

[Atomic Eye]

Just curious. Is the tree a weeping willow or a poplar? These are notorious for aggressive, very invasive root systems seeking water. I once had to dig down to a sewar drain connection of my home, placed copper sulfate all around the connection, and then laid about a 3" thick layer of cement all around the connection.

Atomic Eye -- "Gone Fission!"

[Water Dog]

When the goverment no longer serve's the public , it's time to change the a-holes . Get involved , vote em out of office .

[Tom P]

I hate to get off subject, but, will copper sulfite kill your tree if all of us use it to kill our roots, so we don't have to go through Scooters problem. I have a break in my line 3/4 out and have to have a guy hoog it 1 to 2 times a year. The city will pay 1/3 to have a camera come out and check it out. If I could use this copper sulfite to slow my pending bill then that would be great. Maybe our only answer would be had by a Phd. tree guy.

[scooter]

Well I thank all of you for your input.And I even thought about moving out of state :)As far as city goverment and county goverment both the mayor the adulterous piece of work he is. (nick name johnny zero)Im sure wont be voted back into office even if he gets by the courts for sexuall harresment.And the county sup. is currently in the middle of a recall effort againts him.Both of them combined couldnt tie there own shoe laces so they really offer no help.
As for the rest of the city employees there are a few good people, and well they pick up my garbage and plow the snow and put there lives on the line every day to protect my family and countless others!!!.
Ive decided to have work done and pay the plumber,the city says that I can not damage the tree in any way so the plumber has to dig under it to fix pipe. And yes he is going to replace whole pipe from house to main in the middle of street.I guess thats why its so expensive because he has to dig road up and then fix.I do plan on pursueing this as far as I can.So no new boat this year but the one I have isnt that old so I can still get out!THANKS

[Atomic Eye]

Tom P.,

The copper sulfate will not kill the tree if you flush it down like the directions say. It will kill off the roots that have prenetrated the line or, if the line is leaking, it will permeate the area right near the line and inhibit their growth.

Eventually, the roots will probably win out because they are insistent in looking for water and we might forget to do the copper sulfate thing because we get busy fishing.

Atomic Eye -- "Gone Fission!"

[chadk66]

Man I don't believe I'd be caving in that easy myself. I would at least have a single consultation (most first consults are free) with an attorney that knows these types of things. $8800 is an astronomical price in my opinion. If it was me I'd be renting a backhoe and digging it in myself before I'd pay that for crying out loud.

[gonfishn95@aol.com]

The goverment in MN is the same, homeowners responsibility to the street.
Go to www.permaliner.com and check out the new technologies. I can tell you this we just cleared a line in MN. roto rooter told him it was broke and it was not. IT took us approx 20 hours (line was never maintained) was not broke in real good condition and was considerably less. I can tell you this he'll maintain the line from now on. You will also see a picture of the partial pile of roots we removed from his drain. (WILL BE POSTED BY MONDAY) I AM going to copy your post here and put it on my website. www.houseprocto.com I am a master licensed plumber in MN and can tell you this the company that cleans a sewer and does not put a camera down and visibly see what is wrong does an injustus to the customer. Don't dig until you find out for sure if it is broke. We have been cleaning drains in the Twin City area and are certified perma-liner installers. AND HAVE YET TO LEAVE A LINE UNOPENED.
IF you need to talk feel free to e-mail me at gonfishn95@aol.com. and leave me your phone and I will call you with info.
Larry Dawson NPAA #273

[MK]

As owner of several older homes for rental properties, I can give you my two cents worth because I'v been through this exact problem about a dozen times.

1. The line is probably not broken, its full of roots. The only exception to this I've encountered is the old red clay tile pipe on houses that are 40-50 years old or older and they don't so much break as just disintegrate and collapse over the years. But this should be obvious within the first 50'.

2. Find a plumber or roto-rooter person with a machine that will go farther than 50 feet. They are out there and they are a lot cheaper than what you have mentioned so far.

3. The copper sulfate will work but not at this point. It's a preventitive measure, not a corrective one. Once you solve the current problem, use the copper sulfate to prevent the roots if you don't end up replacing the entire line. Even if it kills the tree, so what? I've never seen a tree worth $8,800.

4. You can fight city hall, but probably not win.

5. Get a second opinion on the line. $8,800 is highway robbery. I've always called a local excavator with a backhoe to replace mine instead of the plumber. The excavator usually costs about half of the plumber. Most of the time the local plumber just calls the excavator anyway.

Good Luck and I hope you get the boat.

[EyeJacker]

Sounds like a catch 22 if I ever heard one. If the tree can't cause the problem why would you need copper sulfate??? Interpretation:
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said, however I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant".If ignorance is bliss, I see a life of enchantment for this poor soul.

[bountyhunter]

YOU GOT HELP GO SEE YOUR COUNCILMEN [don't call if you want help do it in person .

[Kevin/CO]

There is a difference between responsibility and right of way. If the city can hold you responsible for things like the safety of the sidewalk (most cities have laws stating you can't block a sidewalk and have a certain number of days in which to shovle it after snow to mention a few) then chances are if you go through the policies of the public works department you should be able to find grounds for partial payment or an actual lawsuite. In most cases if government work effects private property in an adverse manner there are grounds for the home owner to demand taht the city fixes the problem. If the city will fine you for "attacking" its tree they are claiming it as property, therefore if the tree is the cause of the problem suite should resolve fees for repair, unless under the legal statutes in your area the allow for claimed property to naturally damage other property. The gist of it is if the sewage company says the pipe is your property and your responsibility then sue the city for the tree damaging your pipe. You'll still have to pay for it at first out of your pocket but you should be able to recieve as a claim compensation for expenses. Definitely talk to a lawyer, most will give you a free consultation or at least a low cost inducing one.

[THUMPER]

In Canadian cities the city owns to the lot line. Stubs go into the lot about three feet. You connect to this stubs for the various services.I find it hard to believe that you would be responsible for any work on city property. Excavation can damage all sorts of things and the standard of connection made is subject to all kinds of city rules. For new connections on new lots the city will charge a fee but it is they who do the work and accept the responsibility. I would kick and scream to my city representative....that is what he is ellected for and paid for. I would put everything in writing to them....not verbal as there can be misunderstanding. The contractors you have used must also know the rules. I would talk to a larger plumbing contracor explain your problem.....he does this for a living and may share some of his insight. Good Luck

[Mike in MN]

I thought at first I would not reply to this thread, as several people who did respond have given very good advice on fixing a broken, or root clogged, sewer line. Gone Fishin has some state of the art solutions that I suspect cost a lot less than the bill you are talking about. I would tell you that if tree roots have invaded a sewer line, some roots would be present on whatever tool or machine the plumber that originally tried to clean your line used. The same would usually be true of mud or dirt had the line collapsed. Get someone with a camera to take a look. That is the reason I did reply to this, there has been nothing presented to prove that line needs to be dug up and replaced or repaired. Good Luck, Mike