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View Full Version : "Modified" Tiller Tournament Boats!


Marv Sandbek
04-25-2006, 11:31 AM
Amid the threads regarding the "DQ's" at Winneconne, was an interesting question posed by "maybe another," on thread #17977. The question focused on a "modified' Lund 2025 console boat! The first reply from "rating" was in thread #17978, where "rating" stated that his impression was that the pro angler had modified the boat himself, and the in thread #17987, "schmidtwi" offered that there may have been an arrangement made between the pro angler and the PWT tournament officials to operate that particular boat in the Winneconne event!

My original reply is posted in thread #18026, and then a follow-up is posted to Gary Korsgaden in thread #18149. Whew . . .that's alot of stuff to tie together, but my point is that I do have some concern about what's going on with the modification of a manufacturer engineered, designed and certified product. I will restate my points as follows:

1. During the 2005 tournament season, I noticed a similar boat that was modified in the same manner . . .i.e. "the steering wheel was removed from the console and a tiller-controlled outboard was installed." In that particular instance, the engine installed was a 150HP Opti-Max! As previously mentioned, I did look for a NMMA certification label reflecting the modification, but I could not locate one.

2. I have done limited research regarding high-horsepower tiller certification from other manufacturer's, and discovered that Warrior seems to be leading the way regarding the upper limits of tiller horsepower certification. The Warrior 2090BT/Eagle XST is certified for 200HP!!! However, according to the Lund catalog, the highest tiller horsepower certification is listed at 90HP, as specified for the Pro-V 1800! As near as I can determine, Lund does not offer a 2025 Pro-V "tiller!" And so, that opens the question, "Who authorized the modification to the manufacturer's specification's?"

3. As mentioned earlier, if this configuration change was not authorized by the manufacturer, and was not subsequently approved by NMMA, then it would be reasonable to assume that there are legal and liability issues to be addressed? And, another piece of the puzzle is the question of whether a violation of PWT tournament rules and regulations, (equipment), took place when the modified 2025 was allowed to enter the tournament field at Winneconne! I am very curious to discover if, in fact, a deal was struck between PWT officials and the pro angler who operated the modified 2025! It seems that "schmidtwi" poses an interesting thread in all of this with the mention of some sort of agreement being reached between the angler and PWT tournament officials!

There may be some who reply that a boat greater than 20 feet in length is governed by a different set of criteria, i.e. U.S. Coast Guard?? And so, what is that criteria, and does the inclusion of that criteria into the equipment eligibility standards create the perception of advantage? Does modification of the manufacturer's original configuration void the product warranty? What does this mean for the "Re-sale" cycle of this boat, and what does it mean for the consumer who would like to buy one of their own? Is this boat, in a "tiller" version, available to the general public? I think not!

The focus of this post is FAIRNESS and SAFETY! Manufacturer's go to great lengths to engineer, design and market safe, high-performance tournament boats, linked to state-of-the-art propulsion and electronics. Tournament officials determine the equipment criteria and limitations for their sponsored events. Everyone competes on an equal playing field! In light of the disqualifications handed out at Winneconne for inadvertent violation of a site-specific rule, I ponder the question of whether there existed additional violations of the PWT rulebook, (equipment), that warranted similar disciplinary action by tournament officials! My view is fairly basic and straightforward . . . "What's good for one, is good for all!" No exceptions!

"Minnesota Marv"

hmm
04-25-2006, 01:21 PM
Someone has a lot of extra free time.

yep
04-25-2006, 01:27 PM
yep, just let it go man, just let it go.....

Gale Johnson
04-25-2006, 02:38 PM
are you a hp label cop or something

Still underpowered
04-25-2006, 02:53 PM
IMO, looking back at the last time Lund offerred the 2025 model as a tiller boat, can't remember what year it was, somewhere around 03-04. The Lund 2025 tiller was rated for 135 hp. The boat in the tournament was running a 135 tiller.

It's not as if the boat was being over-powered in comparison to historical tiller ratings, with or without a steering assist mechanism.

Marv Sandbek
04-25-2006, 03:39 PM
Yes . . .I do have ALOT of free time . . .I'm retired! I worked hard for 40 years, and now I have time to fish, hunt, play golf and surf the internet!!! But, this post is not about how much time I have on my hands . . .it's about the question, (not originally posted by me), but by three other members of this forum! I've found it to be an interesting post . . .I have a previous encounter with a similar situation, and I believe it is a valid question! Thus far, no one seems to have an answer! Whether the boat had 135HP, 150HP or 200HP controlled by a tiller arm and power assist, the point remains . . . "Is it modified from the original manufacturer's configuration, or is it not?" "And, if so, what impact does that have relevant to competition, liability and marketing?" All I am requesting is that someone address the question! I think that's fair.

Minnesota Marv

Reels
04-25-2006, 03:43 PM
I guess the first thing that comes to mind is why are you posting it here? Why not send it to the PWT and ask them? They will not answer your post here. The only thing this does is stir up a hornets nest.




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Marv Sandbek
04-25-2006, 04:09 PM
Great Point, Reels . . .you are correct! I'll do as you have suggested. To all whom I have offended, I apologize! I did not intend for this to be an issue . . . Sorry!

Minnesota Marv

Why
04-25-2006, 04:59 PM
I don't know what "Marv" is doing wrong. Is this not a discussion forum? If you people don't enjoy reading his posts don't read them I think the high powered tiller thing is going to be discussed many times in the next year if you don't like it don't read it. I "think" the last Lund that had a high horsepower rating was a 125.

Reels
04-25-2006, 05:05 PM
Didn't mean to imply Marv did anything wrong. I think he sincerely wants to know. They are good questions. Being as it was already in a thread and was not answered, just suggesting that he go to the PWT and ask.

Wasn't offended in anyway and sorry if you think I flamed you Marv.


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modification
04-25-2006, 06:01 PM
1) If the console did not have remote steering, the HP rating goes to USCG Tiller ratings. The builder can choose to warrant the boat or not,that's a business decision, but tiller ratings are usually considerably less that console ratings so it would make no sense to deny say, a hull warranty based on HP being reduced to tiller.
2)It doesn't matter to the PWT or the public who authorized a modification. If the tiller ratings are legal by USCG standards, it's a legal boat. Nothing in the design of the hull or interior was changed, just the manner of steering the craft.
3)A tournament director should only require the HP rating is legal and the boat isn't overpowered. In this case it appears to be legal, and is not overpowered. If the console model takes say a 225 and is 20' or more in length, a 135 or 150 is legal by USCG certifications standards and shouldn't exceed safety measures in design. By the way, the MMMA (National Marine Manufacturers Association)is a Manufacturer's umbrella group who is forwarding a more stringent certification program, according to the website, than the USCG. Here's a link.

http://www.nmma.org/certification/about/why.asp

Note it isn't a legal requirement for a boat to be NMMA rated, it's considered a 'higher standard' according to material on the website and is frequently used as a 'feature/benefit'.

fishhogg
04-26-2006, 06:00 PM
Marv,
I too came up with these same questions. I was on a quest last year to buy a Ranger 620t w/Merc opti. Along the way I had a few occasions to purchase a "modified" tiller boat. I never got any answers that made me feel comfortable enough to pull the trigger on one, ecspecially on a boat under 20'. I personally feel that a Lund 2025/1900, Alumacraft 185, would easily and safely accomidate a 150hp tiller motor. The problem I was worried about was the liability on that "modified" rig. Please let us know what the PWT/FLW people tell you. A Lund 2025/1900 tiller w/200hp Opti, kicker, troll motors and all the trimmings would be a boat that would be hard to pass up!!! Oh no here we go again!

Marv Sandbek
04-26-2006, 10:27 PM
Hey, Fishhogg!!

I called Jim Kalkofen yesterday. Jim was very cordial and upfront about the whole deal with the modified 2025 at Winneconne! There was discussion between the PWT officials and the pro angler regarding the use of the 2025 in the tournament. According to Jim, the tournament staff called Lund and got their opinion. And, while the manufacturer would prefer that no one modify the original configuration, they did indicate that a 135 Opti was well within the acceptable range for tiller/power assist controls. And so, an agreement was reached at Winneconne! Owner/operator "modification" processes seem to remain in the "gray area," (no offense, Gary), but perhaps these discussions and questions will clear the way for the development of new models and/or clarity on "what works and what doesn't!" As far as resale of a owner modifed boat, and the impact that a configuration modification has on warranty, I do not know. Jim and I never got into that part of the discussion. We started talking about Devils Lake, and that was the end of that! I enjoyed your post, Fishhogg!! Have a great season on the water!

"Minnesota Marv"

No insurance for you
04-27-2006, 10:48 AM
Not to mention the implications of insurance. I don't think an insurance company would cover a modified boat.

Reels
04-27-2006, 01:16 PM
Thanks, great info Marv!


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