Verticle Jigging The Wolf River

[Doc_wi]

Don't want to start another eventually locked thread, just want to make something clear. The rule as written, says clearly >Position fishing" is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water while the boat is maneuvered(forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position the boat over underwater structure.Position fishing is allowed statewide in all waters.<

God I hope the word VERTICAL isn't subject to debate here.

If the boat in question was going faster then the boats vertical jigging, he was in violation, period.

[TYEEE]

Doc he was "Drifting" down river with the current! Are you insinuating that dragging a jig behind the boat 5 yards or 50 is illegal, if he uses his motor to keep the bow pointed downstream or to aviod tree limbs, possibly another boater?

If SO then you better start calling the DNR hotline and giving them my description cause I'd be breakin the law everytime out.

Eric I think I know what you saw and it was the day the wind was 25 miles an hour going against the current in many areas so keeping the bow pointed downriver was very important to maintaining a "drift" in a 20' boat! I saw nothing "illegal". The controversial issue IS and has been "pulling" flies against the current as many do on other waters. There is no need to nit pick to death a law that most everyone agrees needs to be changed (except for the folks that like to anchor ah Doc?) as it was overlooked as a class A musky water years ago, I saw NO-ONE "pulling flies" in the river.

Good Luck
Tyee

[Wallinuts]

Sorry I missed what you guys were talking about. I guess I'm just a hick from Montana but do I understand you right there is a law that will not allow you to drag a jig in the river. I don't get that.

[Ba a a a]

The no "trolling" law on that body of water, I believe, is the issue.

[Wallinuts]

Thanks for the clarification. What are the issues of no trolling on this water system.

[Doc_wi]

Who you kidding Tyee. Guys push the edge of the envelope all the time. If I was keeping my jig vertical and slipping the current, and you PASSED me during a drift and got 100 YARDS ahead of me, I would personally wonder how much you were running your trolling motor unless you were being blown by a big downsteram wind. The rule is pretty clear, it says vertical. I long line jigs through the "whoop de do's" all the time, been doing it, writing and talking about it for years in public and with the DNR. Down stream wind is the only way you're passing boats and the amount of "steering" isn't enough to be doing so unless therre IS. Can't break the laws of physics.

[tn]

Does pulling downstream give you an advantange? I would think the guy that stays vertical would catch more fish than one dragging.

[Waschin]

You are right there and you know that water as well as anyone, Doc.
Other rivers have current breaks, and the boats out in heavier current go down the river faster than the ones sitting off to the side in the slack.

These issues get so doggone nit-picky.

[boomrr]

Doc and others, your entitled to your opinion, but i totally disagree.I have some questions for you.How heavy is your boat?How heavy are you and your partner?Is your primary motor down all the time?Do you have a full windsheild that wind catches?Do you have any windsheilds?Is your boat pointed downstream so you catch more water?How much wind was there?Are you in the channel or in slack water?Are you fighting current chasing your jig or "position fishing"?Do you think these variables affect speed?Were you in the boat with this guy your bashing,to 100 percent verify he was propelling his boat not steering?If not, let it die.All i know is when i drag jigs on the wolf, i know im legal according to dnr regs. If you chose to eliminate a form of fishing available to you, so be it.This topic is getting really sickening.

[Doc_wi]

Wow! Speaking of growing up.
Also, had the local warden look at the post in question and discussed the situation with him at length. One move latterally dragging the jig, and you've crossed the line between position fishing and trolling according to him. He ALSO said, the rule for use of a motor stated VERTICAL. SO, what he is going to do, is talk to the other wardens, form a concensus, and report back to me so it can be made clear. Not sure how that is whinning or any of the other childish accusations. Tyee and I are friends who like to engage in conversation, man if you can't do that here, what's it for.
Some folks just shouldn't post past their bed time.

[Deep Throat]

That’s funny!

You wonder why people are confused about the rule/law?

Obviously, the wardens in your state have no clue either! Otherwise your warden friend would not have to talk to the other wardens, form a consensus, and report back to you so it can be made clear.

Maybe they should read WC to learn more.

Nice Zinger Doc, You just can not resist, can you?


:+
:shame:
:banging:
:boohoo:
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[Jayman]

Aye, Good post, Mystery Man ;)

[Waschin]

Now that is a hard post to top!

World class TIC on that one, Doc!

[Reels]

It can give you a huge advantage. Some of them were fishing in 3-6' of water trying to keep the lines away from the boat as you would spook them as you go over. If you are long lining and "pulling" and not verticle jigging you have an advantage over those following the rules as your bait is farther away from the boat and spooked fish.


<{{}}><

[wall-nut]

Doc, Does verticle jigging have some angle rule to abide by? If you are using a 1 ounce jig and keeping it on the bottom and going at a slower pace than a person using a 1/16th ounce jig with 30 feet out and going around the people that are almost at a stop, does that mean that I'm trolling? If I'm dragging my rig and keeping in touch with the bottom, using my trolling motor to direct me is that not allowed? There are different types of drift fishing/rigging in any situation. This past week saw I lot of different types of drifting, many not the same as the locals like to fish.

[Doc_wi]

First, Deep Throat, as far as the concensus. Don't State Patrol officers, or cops in general, have a different "limit", as in amount over, before writing a ticket. The person I asked is fairly new, what he is doing is making an effort to help be clear at my request, not sure why that means they have no clue. I could have tried to call each myself to get their view, but I thought Brian's suggestion was better. Thanks for the cudo's too.
Second, wal-nut, according to the law as written and the reason Brian said he would probably have issued a warning or a ticket was this. Was the angler trying to gain advantage by use of motor AND the law reads specifically vertical and position forward and backward. Any movement latterally would be considered trolling. So if a guy pulls his boat a little inside the current to drag the jig shallower, it's not position fishing as written in the law. As far as your scenario, man you can create a lot of if's and butts but wind current and so many other factors come in to play. If your drifting and pitching the reel comes in to play and the rod is usually at a high angler. If the wind is blowing hard downstream you can long line flats but if it's in your face, even a LITTLE, how can you do it without pulling with the trolling motor. The force of the motor has to be applied to provide a counter balance to the wind and provide tension, needed for feel, between the rod tip and jig greater then the force of the water on the jig and the line. Man, where's my science teacher when I need him.
Thanks for the good conversation.

[boomrr]

Doc you better read page 16 again of the dnr regs,or you better get a new one, because your totally misquoting the rule.It specifically says motor trolling is propelling (forward or backwards).Besides the fact that you're misquoting rules,are you also telling us that people that are "position fishing" always keep there jig vertical when they are steering, or moving laterally?

[Current]

The position fishing law was written to cover lakes, primarily. There is wording in the law that makes it a bit confusing and very hard to enforce down to nit picking, especially on rivers.

A boat carrying downstream in the current using the electric to postiion the bow or stern is NOT trolling. The motor isn't propelling the boat, the current is. It wouldn't be necessary to worry about a vertical line, because the motor is not creating the position of the lure and line, the current is. The motor is being used only to steer and POSITION, which is the heart and intent of the law. By the letter and intent of the law, if a lateral move is made but the boat remains headed downstream propelled by the current, that is NOT trolling. If the boat makes a leteral move, and the line goes beyond vertical as the boat heads UPSTREAM, for any length of time, THAT is trolling because the motor is propelling the boat and moving the lure along UNLESS tha angler has the rod in his hand and is alternately relling a bit and opening the bail to redeploy the lure.

Forget the rest, and just think current here. If current and wind are moving the boat without the aid FORWARD in that SPEED OF MOVEMENT from a motor, any slowing or lateral moves would equate to position fishing by the letter and intent of the no-trolling laws. If the intent is to stop folks from drifting down current and adjusting position with an electric while the current carries the boat, the DNR needs to write that intent clearly into law or a ticket will not hold up in court.

If were discussing the winner the angler was fishing literally under a microscope with a camera man in the boat and an official boat close by much of the day. I'd say he was within the rules of the event, and the law.

[what the]

Let me be the first to say, this sounds like a stupid law anyway.

Exactly what are they trying to protect by not allowing whatever it is that is in debate.

[Doc_wi]

I believe my original post is an exact copy of the rule, and it states forwards or backwards. Not sure what tou are referring to boomr. I totally agree with the post about intent. and I believe I stated that when I said the warden commented about if the angler was trying to "gain an advantage". And NO, when you are vertical jigging, you let the jig determin pace and line and you stay above it with the motor. When you move laterally, you tell your friends in the boat and re-deploy the jigs VERTICALLY below your position. Harder to do in the back of the boat, (stay vertical), but that's not the person in control of the boat. GEEPERS guys, let the warden chine back in before all the spit balls.

[boomrr]

This should be the final clarification.I just talked to a major tournament director,who was in contact with the head local warden two days ago.His ruling is as follows:As long as your not gaining ground on shoreline going upstream,or your not increasing your speed going downstream, you can use your motors to present your bait any way you want.Moving lateral means nothing,and not being vertical means nothing.Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

[hgmeyer]

Best of all... That sounds very simple to follow... Thanks... Now, if Doc can check with his sources and we can get a consensus and a name... WOW... wouldn't clarity and simplicity be fantastic... Good luck Doc... (hope you do/can check... Thanks)

[Doc_wi]

I'll believe what I hear from the local warden when he calls me back like he said he would. Until then let the crows say what they want.

[Waschin]

My apologies. I honestly thought you were kidding about the wardens getting together and arriving at a consensus and getting back to you.
Wow. It just seems to me, if the wardens can't interpret the rule as individuals, how can they expect anyone else to? Furthermore, if they have to get together and figure it out, won't their consensus only be an opinion? Isn't it possible their opinion may differ from a judge's interpretation?
Good example here, of a poorly written law.

[Shep_Unloggable]

This is a great example of our Conservation Congress and the POLITICS of Wisconsin hunting and fishing. We've been complaining about how this rule is worded for many years, ever since the word "backtrolling" became popular to describe position fishing.

In fact, until April 1st of 2005, for a period of about 10 years, it was actually legal to troll the Wolf River above Poygan. It always was ASSUMED it was illeagl to troll it. But, prior to that, when they included the Wolf River in the WInnebago "System", they forgot to add the rule of No trolling the Wolf. So technically, the whole Bago system was opened to trolling. Last year, at the Spring CC hearings, a propsal, I think #107, was on the ballot to disallow trolling on the WOlf. It passed, and went into affect on April 1, 2005. Now, people will argue this, but it is fact. It was just never publicized. Kind of like, as long as most think it is illegal, we'll let them keep thinking that way.

I've had wardens tell me everything from, if you have your trolling motor in the water, and you are not reeling in your lure or bait, you are trolling, to as long as you are not using your motor constantly to propel your boat, you are not trolling.

Anyway, I'll not argue one way or the other on this. I'll just keep doing what I know is right, and if I contact the wrong Warden, I'll go to court, fight the ticket, and win.

[Simple Solution]

Just do exactly as Doc does as he is quite obviously the expert on the river, rules and regulations. It may be a little more boring here but the wardens would have more time to do their job.

Lesson for the day: Do as Doc does.

[bigboat wannabe]

is it just me or does doc look like dog the bounty hunter without the mullet? heheehe

[EYEEZ]

LOL He sure does. Doc enjoys arguements, he actually wants to video tourney guys in case they break the no-wake rules!

By the way, let everyone know for next spring that until they take a class to learn how to stay perfectly vertical when drifting, they are in violation. Too bad, I was enjoying teaching my kids the technique.

[bigboat wannabe]

doc, if you believe you know the law then why are you waiting for a warden to call you back that he even doesnt know the answer to? i think you should just keep quiet on the issue till your warden buddy that dont know the answer gets back to you. then you can preach to the rest of us about it.

[Doc_wi]

eeyez, you're fos. Where'd you get that? I AM working on making an educational DVD regarding boat handling and the no wake rule and purposly stated I would NOT video tournament anglers so as to avoid any accusations such as yours. Check your facts before you blow your horn. Geez, I thought the warden making sure his personal interpretation of the rule was the same as the other wardens was a good offer. Again, I PERSONALLY would like to see trolling allowed or a clear rule.
Dog the bounty hunter? What ever. Some of you must still be in school.

[eye lunker]

Shep your not exactly correct. In the rules book if it state's"motor trolling permitted" it is legal and if it doesnt say anything at all then motor trolling is not permitted.I am sure Doc will agree with me on this but I grew up fishing the wolf and us locals have always known that motor trolling was not permitted any where above poygan and if there was a misunderstanding it has been due lack of enforcement.

[eye lunker]

Shep your not exactly correct. In the rules book if it state's"motor trolling permitted" it is legal and if it doesnt say anything at all then motor trolling is not permitted.I am sure Doc will agree with me on this but I grew up fishing the wolf and us locals have always known that motor trolling was not permitted any where above poygan and if there was a misunderstanding it has been due lack of enforcement.

[Shep_Unloggable]

Well, I will agree to disagree on this one. If trolling was ALWAYS not permitted, then why was this a question on the ballot at the Spring Hearings the year before? As I stated, trolling was not permitted on the Wolf above Poygan. AT some point about 6 or so years ago, they included the Wolf as part of the entire Winnebago System. They mistakenly did not exclude the Wolf above Poygan when they ruled that the entire Winnebago System was open to trolling. Again, it was the case that as long as people assumed it was closed to trolling, the DNR said othing to the contrary. It was only after people figured it out, and actually started handlining and pulling flies, and then trolling cranks, did they add the resolution to the spring hearings in 2004.

I did inquire of the DNR, and somewhere, I may have his response to this. I know I posted this in 2004 when the PWT was here last. I'll see if I can find the e-mail I got.

[Shep_Unloggable]

Well, I will agree to disagree on this one. If trolling was ALWAYS not permitted, then why was this a question on the ballot at the Spring Hearings the year before? As I stated, trolling was not permitted on the Wolf above Poygan. AT some point about 6 or so years ago, they included the Wolf as part of the entire Winnebago System. They mistakenly did not exclude the Wolf above Poygan when they ruled that the entire Winnebago System was open to trolling. Again, it was the case that as long as people assumed it was closed to trolling, the DNR said othing to the contrary. It was only after people figured it out, and actually started handlining and pulling flies, and then trolling cranks, did they add the resolution to the spring hearings in 2004.

I did inquire of the DNR, and somewhere, I may have his response to this. I know I posted this in 2004 when the PWT was here last. I'll see if I can find the e-mail I got.

[eye lunker]

Shep I rememeber all the commotion also last time the pwt was here and got chuckle out of everyones interpation of the rules.Lets simply and take a look in the rules book and look up winnabago county. Take a look at fox river and it specify's "motor trolling permitted"its legal. Now look at wold river no where does it state "motor trolling permitted" the rules have always been written this way on motor trolling.So in other words if any body of water in wisconsin that you look up in the rules book does not state "motor trolling is permitted"it is not legal and this has not changed for 30 years. The issue with the pwt from what i remember was the defintion of trolling and from there it got quit skewed from there. Have a nice day

[eye lunker]

Shep I rememeber all the commotion also last time the pwt was here and got chuckle out of everyones interpation of the rules.Lets simply and take a look in the rules book and look up winnabago county. Take a look at fox river and it specify's "motor trolling permitted"its legal. Now look at wold river no where does it state "motor trolling permitted" the rules have always been written this way on motor trolling.So in other words if any body of water in wisconsin that you look up in the rules book does not state "motor trolling is permitted"it is not legal and this has not changed for 30 years. The issue with the pwt from what i remember was the defintion of trolling and from there it got quit skewed from there. Have a nice day

[eye lunker]

Shep i know what your saying about"entire winnabago system" is open to trolling but that doesnt mean every creek or stream and or attached lil lake has the same rules of min. lenths or trolling as the other area of the same system.Especially if they have the wolf river listed in attached counties and you see the fox listed also and it specifically states motor trolling permitted. If your a trout fisherman and fished streams you would know what i mean on how confusing it can be.

[eye lunker]

Shep i know what your saying about"entire winnabago system" is open to trolling but that doesnt mean every creek or stream and or attached lil lake has the same rules of min. lenths or trolling as the other area of the same system.Especially if they have the wolf river listed in attached counties and you see the fox listed also and it specifically states motor trolling permitted. If your a trout fisherman and fished streams you would know what i mean on how confusing it can be.

[eye lunker]

Shep do me a favor please and email me your contact with the dnr that you are refering to please. Thanks you rsgofish@hotmail.com

[eye lunker]

Shep do me a favor please and email me your contact with the dnr that you are refering to please. Thanks you rsgofish@hotmail.com

[Shep_Unloggable]

Lunker,

I am searching for my notes on this. But here is the exact wording of the 2004 Spring Hearing ballot.

"QUESTION 21 - Wolf River Motor Trolling – Prohibit motor trolling on the Wolf River, Winnebago,
Outagamie, Waupaca, and Shawano counties.

In order to provide consistent management on the waters collectively known as the Winnebago System, a definition
was written into rule for the Winnebago System waters, which includes the Wolf River. Along with providing
consistency, the new definition simplified rule writing by providing a single location in administrative code for all
regulations on the system. On the large lakes of the Winnebago System, motor trolling is allowed and quite popular,
so upon creation of the Winnebago System definition, motor trolling was allowed. However, historically motor
trolling was prohibited on the Wolf River. With creation of the new definition, motor trolling was mistakenly
permitted. Anglers, law enforcement and the fishing regulations pamphlet have always assumed that trolling was
still prohibited on the Wolf River. There are no documented negative biological impacts on fish populations due to
motor trolling. However, due to the congestion on the Wolf River, law enforcement staff are concerned about safety
and user conflicts that may arise due to motor trolling and feel that it should not be allowed."

Pleas note the second half of the paragragh, beginning with the historical part.

Also note, that this resolution passed, and was enforce on April 1, 2005. So, I am not saying that trolling is legal now. Only that it was for a period of time.

[Shep_Unloggable]

Lunker,

I am searching for my notes on this. But here is the exact wording of the 2004 Spring Hearing ballot.

"QUESTION 21 - Wolf River Motor Trolling – Prohibit motor trolling on the Wolf River, Winnebago,
Outagamie, Waupaca, and Shawano counties.

In order to provide consistent management on the waters collectively known as the Winnebago System, a definition
was written into rule for the Winnebago System waters, which includes the Wolf River. Along with providing
consistency, the new definition simplified rule writing by providing a single location in administrative code for all
regulations on the system. On the large lakes of the Winnebago System, motor trolling is allowed and quite popular,
so upon creation of the Winnebago System definition, motor trolling was allowed. However, historically motor
trolling was prohibited on the Wolf River. With creation of the new definition, motor trolling was mistakenly
permitted. Anglers, law enforcement and the fishing regulations pamphlet have always assumed that trolling was
still prohibited on the Wolf River. There are no documented negative biological impacts on fish populations due to
motor trolling. However, due to the congestion on the Wolf River, law enforcement staff are concerned about safety
and user conflicts that may arise due to motor trolling and feel that it should not be allowed."

Pleas note the second half of the paragragh, beginning with the historical part.

Also note, that this resolution passed, and was enforce on April 1, 2005. So, I am not saying that trolling is legal now. Only that it was for a period of time.

[eye lunker]

ok thanks shep. What i was told a year ago by a dnr officer that s the regualtion for 2004 was not written correctly and noone caught it including every regulator angler in the state until pwt folks showed up and the issue was brought up by means of fishing websites. Thanks again

[eye lunker]

ok thanks shep. What i was told a year ago by a dnr officer that s the regualtion for 2004 was not written correctly and noone caught it including every regulator angler in the state until pwt folks showed up and the issue was brought up by means of fishing websites. Thanks again

[Shep_Unloggable]

Exactly, Lunker. There were a few who knew about the mistake, but mostly, eveyone assumed trolling was always prohibited.

But that still doesn't change the fact that the trolling regulation, as written, is confusing at best, and should be rewritten. Or better yet, just make the whole state trollable!

[Shep_Unloggable]

Exactly, Lunker. There were a few who knew about the mistake, but mostly, eveyone assumed trolling was always prohibited.

But that still doesn't change the fact that the trolling regulation, as written, is confusing at best, and should be rewritten. Or better yet, just make the whole state trollable!

[Doc_wi]

The Wolf River has never been listed as "motor trolling allowed" in the special regulations for each county. I was told that this was due to it being considered part of class A muskie waters from decades ago. The interpretation of the "position fishing" rule has been the problem. When the PWT was here a few years ago, they did not let them troll or hand line the Wolf at, say Fremont, because they did not want them pushing the edge of the envelope due to the mis-written rule or statement in the regulation book. In the 35 years I've been fishing the Wolf, trolling has never been legal.

[Doc_wi]

The Wolf River has never been listed as "motor trolling allowed" in the special regulations for each county. I was told that this was due to it being considered part of class A muskie waters from decades ago. The interpretation of the "position fishing" rule has been the problem. When the PWT was here a few years ago, they did not let them troll or hand line the Wolf at, say Fremont, because they did not want them pushing the edge of the envelope due to the mis-written rule or statement in the regulation book. In the 35 years I've been fishing the Wolf, trolling has never been legal.

[Shep_Unloggable]

Sorry Doc, you are wrong on this one. Read the excerpt from the 2004 Spring hearing question.

[Shep_Unloggable]

Specifically this part. It is very clear that the DNR made a mistake, and Trolling on the Wolf was actually permitted. You are one of those that assumed it was not.

"However, historically motor
trolling was prohibited on the Wolf River. With creation of the new definition, motor trolling was mistakenly
permitted. Anglers, law enforcement and the fishing regulations pamphlet have always assumed that trolling was
still prohibited on the Wolf River."

[Doc_wi]

Shep, mistakenly permitted and made legal are two different things. I agree that the mistake made the law as it stood then, and stands today, unenforceable but that's not what I was even referring to when I started this thread.