New subject guys.

I've been fishing Saginaw Bay for just about 45 years now. Of course, I didn't really put any serious thought into much when I was 5. I do remember being yeld at a lot less than my brother on fishing trips through the years, as I was always more interested in the whole thing than him. I missed the end of the walleye era on the Bay as I was born in 1952. That last natural Saginaw Bay walleye had long since been dead, probably around the late 30's early 40's.

Our place to catch walleyes before the re-birth of the bay started was in Canada, Michigans Upper Peninsula or Northern Michigan Lakes. And Tip Up's were a big part of how to catch these walleyes through the ice.

So why don't they work now on Saginaw Bay walleyes? My buddy comes down from Black Lake (where they do work great) several times a year to fish the Bay. He sets up tip-up's religiously, and they set all day and never get touched. Yet, I've been using a dead stick in the shanty with a Gens Worm and minnow and catch half the fish I catch on it. And I've seen pleanty of others who use tip up's and "Notta". Any thoughts on this matter.

Gotta be the Genz worms.........lol. I cant tell you why but I have had similar results here in the midwest. That Genz worm and a minnow left alone will produce just as many if not more fish than anything I throw down the hole and jig with. I do believe I draw fish in with the flashy commotion the spoons/jigs make......however 75% of the time they take the Genz worm.....or as we call 'em "tripple be-be's.
WalleyeOne

WalleyeOne.
That is interesting. The first time I seen a Gens in action was on the Midwest Outdoors TV Show. Mr. Gens himself was using them on that Big Lake in South Dakota, or North Dakota, I forget. It's that famous Lake where they catch those giant perch. The fishing crew was complaning that they were catching more walleyes than giant perch. I looked high and low for them and nobody in this area knew what I was taking about. Low and behold, I called Gander Mountain on a whim and they had some. I've found that hooking the minnow just under the skin, between the Dorsal and tail fin, actually gives them a little vibrating/shimmy kind of action while they strugle. I also jig with a spoon while I let the gens soak next to it. The FL-8 will light up, and the gens rod tip will start to shimmy from the excited minnow. Being that close to Jaws might do that to me as well. Then the rod will just slightly start to bend. Bang, got'em. Seem's I catch more on the gens in the morning and the jig turns on later in the day.

Dan I was wondering what your buddy uses for leader material on his tip ups. First ice I have always done well on them. I use a mono leader 8# Stren magnathin with a very small treble hook I put a couple of shot two feet above the hook so the minnow or minnows can swim freely. I always set mine pretty close to the shack so I can get to them in a hurry. Heard about those worms. My best bait has been a#5 jiggin rap fire tiger last couple of years. Before that the dojiggers were my hot bait. Sometimes I try the dead sticking approach but most of the time I jig two rods. I will try this method though.My dad used to say its all in what you have confidence in son.

I highly doubt it's the lure deadstick alone. A combination of fish activety level and placement of your presentation. You both "jig" the fish in and catch the fish on the still bait next to you. Tip-ups are usually alone somehwere not next to a actively jigged bait.
It's about Location Location Presentation, not Presentation, Presentation, Location

Jim.
I'm pretty sure he uses some light line or at least light leader. When I go up and fish with him on Black, he always telling to play them slow and easy, because he has light line on the Tip Up's. He usually uses the #10 treble and one small split shot. Fishes it 3 to 10 inches off bottom. Everything I'd do myself, if I was still serious about using them. Even fishing in those massive packs out by the spark plug, I've seen few if any tip up's on the ice.

A valid point Fishguy.
The fish may be drawn in by the flash of the jigging motion, and then because he is not exactly in the (lets call it frisky mood), he takes the more subtle acting Gens and Minnow. I've been using tip Up's lately for white fish on the Bay. Just chunking bait and using a two hook set-up on the tip up dead on the bottom. I'll try bringing a live bait tip up inside the Old Otter Skin next time out and see if that is indeed the only difference. I guess the only down side here, would be the fish might drop the offering on the tip up, whereas I usually give him the steel right away on the Gens rig.

I Would like to give a tip on deadstiking walleye. I use a very light willow and a long shank straight hook or 16th oz char/white jig home made with long shank hook on 8# test line. I start by hooking a good 4 to 6 inch red chub by the very back of his tail and threading it threw the middle of him until it comes out as close to his bumb hole as possible. This makes him swim like a wounded minnow. I don't use any weight at all and it doesn't take very long to get to bottom. I set it 3 to 4 inches off bottom. You can see the minnow get real hyper just before the fish bites and you won't see that on most tip ups. I stress, to use a very light willow and feed it to him good. You will see everything that the minnow will do. I could go on and on about ice fishing, its all most as exciting as fishing the RCL. Try this, I don't want to be the only one having fun.

McCanada.
Your Willow and Red Minnow sounds like an old family fish catching recipe. It was both easy to mentally visualize you setting this device up on some slave lake, and it's effectivness, when reading your post. I'm just wondering about the play and drag system on a red willow.:-).

If a Genz worm is catching most of the fish on a dead stick, why not put it on the tip ups? They are basically dead sticks anyway.

Mr.Creosote.
Ya know, that solution is so (in your face easy), that it makes me wonder why I indeed haven't done just that. Your right, how hard could that be? Kinda like "Have you seen my hat?" when its on your own head. I'm at that age now where I'm thinking past the obvious. And like the (bring it in the shanty idea) I'll give that bit of wisdom a try this winter as well. Thanks.

I have had some great luck with deadstick presentations on fussy perch, walleye, crappie, and trout.

The rig I have found very consistent is a Gamakatsu circle hook set below a spread of 2-3 BB split shot set 1' above the hook (the spread is to allow for a steady build up of resistance).

http://www.gamakatsu.com/hd-pro.gif

You can set the rig so it is right on the bottom or anywhere up the water column you spot fish. I have had good days for walleye by placing the lowest BB shot just so it touches the bottom and allowing the minnow to swim around on the bottom looking like an easy wounded meal. Sneaky ><sUMo> perch really go for this trick!

It is critical to apply the right rod to a deadstick and circle hook set. A longer and lighter then average rod will load up slowly and will not spook the fish (E-glass is an excellent blank for this). By the time the fish understands something may be up, it is too late, the circle hook has already done its job. Now all you need to do is reel them in, do not set the hook.

Another critical factor is that you need to be sure NOT to fill the throat of the circle hook up with bait. If you do the hook will not perform as it was designed to perform, resulting in missed fish and subsequent cursing.

You can get the Gamakatsu octopus style circles in hot colors or even luminescent finishes. The red and luminescent has been especially good to me.

I also like to apply the "Judas Principle". By setting a deadstick rig near an actively jigged spoon (such as a Scenic Tackle Angel Eye Spoon) to sucker them in for a look.

http://shop.infomeld.com/ScenicTackle/images/items/scenic-angel-eye-minnow.jpg

This 1-2 system is especially deadly on fussy late season perch and high-pressured walleye.

Ed "Backwater Eddy" Carlson...><sUMo>
Backwater Guiding

Eddy.
I definitley concur on the "letting the rod load up steadily and smoothly". And that fact may have been in the back of my mind as to why I haven't really tried the Gens on a tip up yet. Very, and I mean very seldom, do our Saginaw Bay ice walleyes have anything way down their throats after you fianlly get then to bite. So, hooking bait in an area to keep it alive, dictates places like the tail other than the head area. And anything telling Mr. walleye he may be making a mistake (like a stiff resistance) would be detrimental to that purpose. Man, I'm getting a headache.

The added benefit of the circle hook is you very seldom get gut hooked fish. They get it in the corner of the mouth allowing for a healthy release if you so wish.

This alone has made me a big fan of the hooks.

Ed "Backwater Eddy" Carlson...><sUMo>
Backwater Guiding

Dan when I use the real light willow I have the tip off the ice two feet and always put the sticks facing the same way going with the wind its much easier to detect bites .I just have my lines on old spools I have saved and I set them in the snow (put some snow on them)
Make sure they can spin freely. Use a half hitch knot to attach your line to the willow so it will come apart easy when you get a big fish on and have to give some line.When the fish bites they seem to just hold the minnow and swim away with it.What I do is lightly jiggle the line and this seems to make the fish grab the minnow again and the second time its usually got it deeper in his mouth. Its all history after that.Hope you get a chance to try this out you will be pleasently surprised.

Russ McCanada

Russ.
I visualize you as one of them old timers, wearing a big Coyote or Beaver skin hat. Big bushy eyebrows and handle Bar mustache, both caked and frozen with ice and snow, while you run around checking your red willow Deadsticks for Big Canadian Brookies or Lakers. Off in the background, a lone wolf cries to the pack........ O.K. I'm getting carried away:-).
Thanks for your imput Russ. Its great to know there are still simpler ways and simpler days when it comes to fishing.

What is a Gens spoon? Any picture or site??