Just acquired some of the new Pa's Fintail Spoons, and they do look sweet. Got the smaller 3 inch versions, to try running them off three way swivels in conjunction with crankbaits, like the new Ka-Boom Winning Streaks or the old Rattle Tots or 1/4 ounce hot-n-tots. I used to do this many years ago on Saginaw Bay with limited success, but haven't tried it for quit a while. I'd like to give these new spoons and this technique another try this summer on the Bay. My usual fishing depth on the Saginaw Bay is anywhere from 9 to 23 feet, depending on historical seasonal trends, wind and waves, and local marina scuttlebutt.

Do any of you fish spoons this way? And is there any productive formulas worked out by you boys for this technique? How far up the line? How far back from the three way? How about productive speeds?

I know about the Spoon and crawlers harness rigs. But will only be trying them with cranks. Running 10 rods with meat can kill a man in short order on the Bay.

I run 3-way rigs on pretied snells and a 3-way swivel. I use floro leads of 3 feet (with a snap for the crank) and 4 feet (with a BB snap swivel for the spoon). I have used this set up off and on for about 3 years. I saw it in Walleye Insider about then. I keep them on a pool noodle for tangle-free storage. Seems like a good way to get one more lure in the water per rod. I use this set-up most often in the early summer when the fish on Erie seem to change preference from cranks to spoons, so I give them both. Make sure the crank is tuned perfectly. Let it out with the clicker on or with a little tension for no tangles. I run them at speeds of 1.2 to 2.5 mph, depending on what the fish want. Reef Runners with Stingers is my usual combo. I'm thinking of experimenting with some longer lead combinations this year.

Tim

I forgot to mention that there was a thread about a month ago covering 3-way rigs. You might check that out.

Toolman.
Have you ever had any trouble with three way rigging when (Stalling or on the inside lines on a turn), where the crank might float up and get tangled in the spoon line attached above, for lack of tension? Thats mainly the thing I like about these new Pa's fintails. They are very light weight, but still wondered about the tangle equation possibilities using this kind of rig.

PS. Like the pre tied snell idea. This along with some easy clip on swivels, and the change over time will be quick and smooth.

I too have use dthis set up quite often. It came from my Great Lakes days, but it works every where.

The only difference is my riggin. I put the crank on about a six foot lead and the spoon at about three. Here is why, two fold. For storage while fishing, I hook the single hook of the spoon into the snap for the crank and put the crank on the reel, then tighten the line and it all stays together. Second is appearance in the water.

All fish (most) feed up. Use a smaller spoon than crank. With te spon on a shorter lead this creats the appearance of a larger somthing chasing a smaller somthing. When fish see one feeding, they all want to feed. Most of the fish in this case are caught on the spoon.

Just one guys theory, good luck and give the rig a try no matter how you rig it, it works.

I seldom troll into the wind so I rarely completely stall out, even if I take the kicker out of gear to fight or land a big fish. I don't remember ever tangling one up, but then again, I can't remember what I had for lunch today :) so it's possible.
Johnnie. Your theory of bigger chasing smaller sounds like a winner. I'll definitely try that variation. Maybe do a comparison between the two.

Tim

Johnnie.
Noticed in your response that your a "Siwash Single" man. I also learned long ago the advantage of siwash hooks, but mainly for kings and cohos. But do you switch out the trebles, and use them for walleyes in your three way walleye set ups as well?

Dan,
We occasionally run three way rigs with cranks & spoons on Erie similar to what the others have described. There are days it makes a difference but I would only do it when limited in the amount of rods I could run (tournament or 1 / 2 guys on the boat). You have to slow everything down (setting/retrieving lines) to the point where it can become more hassle than a benefit even if you have all experienced people running the rods.

I doubt that I would even try it in a charter situation running 8,10,12,14,16 rods you are just asking for trouble. So it has it's place but not in very many charter situations in my opinion.
Good Luck,
Steve Carlson

Good point Steve.
I was kinda thinking about just running them on one side and probably just when the fish were coming kinda slow/tuff. The fishing last summer was about as slow and unpredictable as it has been in 7 years on the Bay. Seems even when you found them, you had to troll super fast and elicite a reaction strike most of the time. I'm thinking using a three way and spoon might create more of that reaction response if things are as tough this coming summer.

Dan,
Speed and 3 ways do NOT work well together.

So 2.4 to 3.2 is to fast? Does the spoon spin out and tangle then? Or put to much stress on the Plug?

Dan,
I'm a big believer in SPEED KILLS - sometimes to a fault.

I don't know how much you use full size Reefrunners on the Bay, but if you take the time to get the perfectly tuned you can run them as fast as 3 - 3.2 mph. We sometimes do this in the middle of summer on Erie when most everyone is using all spoons and it is a tough bite to get reaction strikes. Of course it is ALWAYS important to make sure your cranks are properly tuned but especially true with Reefrunners when you speed up above 2.5. I'm not talking about doing this with 3 ways - just the full size Reeffunners.

Good Luck,
Steve

I do use the singles on spoons for walleye. They just hook so much better. Many years runninga charter boat on Erie's central basin proved it to me over and aver again. Bigger hook gap and when the grab, they don't let go.

Freebyrd.
I must be extremlel lucky then. I troll 1/4 ounce tots upwards of 3.5 MPH sometimes during the summer. I use rubber band snubbers off the main lines and connect them to the planer board release clips.

This keeps the cranks from reaching warp speeds when in turns or just simply (cracking the wip) in waves on the planer board main line. Also, after about a million hours of watching these rubber bands, I know when there's anything fouling the crank, or a small perch riding along attached to the lure, by the exact stretch length of this rubber band.

And the rubber band stays on the main line marking exactly where and how far back that particular lure was/is running.

Dan,
I think the tots are a little more forgiving on the power trolling than RRs. Sounds like you run your cranks and rubber band releases very similar to the way we do it. As you stated the rubber band has several advantages. You may give the RRs a try on one of those tough days. I know tots are the standard goto crank on the bay...
Good Luck,
Steve

Where the tangle gets started is hard to determine, but we know we don't want tangles. And anytime you're up over 2.5 it seems they are much more likely.

Freebyrd.
I love everything about Reef Runners. The style, the colors, the action, everything. I especially love the Little Rippers. They are close to the size/running action that the tots have. What I don't like is there tracking/diving integrity. (ITS TO GOOD).(IT WONT COME UP WHEN FOULED).

And recently, we here on the Saginaw Bay have been going through a (Lake Okeechobee) type weed growth problem. The Zebras have enabled weeds to get sunlight some 15 down. This has allowed weed to mulitply like Kelp beds on the Bay. Its ruining a lot of peoples favorite spots.

When the 1/4 tot (even the Rattle tots) gets fouled, even with the most minute piece of weed, it comes to the top. A pain in the ^ss, but it beats running a foulded plug nothing will hit. The Reef Runners stay down and won't/dont usually pop up. Oh, that telltail vibrating of the line will quit, and signal me that somethings wrong. But does not signal me fast enough or reliably enough.

Better than three way rigging. I use this method when the bite is tough and I am not sure where the fish are biting. You can clip lures on your line where ever you want. Use OR-16 Offshore releases with the pin. Example. Hook, say a reef runner deep diver on first. Let out 80 feet, so it is down 20 feet. Rig an OR-16 Offshore releases with 3 foot of line and snap on the other end. Hook another, say reef runner deep diver to that. Clip on line. The reef runner with suck under the line. Have never had one tangle. Let out 25 feet, down 10. That puts the first one down approximately 30 feet. Put behind a planner board or bobber and let out. State of Ohio. Can only have three hooks in water. One reef runner with one hook and the other with two. I run the one hooker down deep, tail hook. Usually a Walleye with trail deep and hit the rear hook. Up high, from the side is where you need two hooks. With this system, you can work two different depths. We get 50% or better of our big Walleye in the top 10 foot of the water column. Have side lookers on my Raytheon and Genetron Fishfinders. Surprising what is on top. Expecially when you have waves.

Want to run spoons. Different set up. Same OR-16 line clip set up. Put a spoon on. Let 50 foot of line out or whatever you want. I use the same OR-16's to clip weight on. I like 3-6 oz of weight depending on the trolling speed. I like trolling fast, 3 miles per hour or faster, which requires 6 oz of weight to keep lures from tangling. After 50 foot of line out, figure the angle of the line and how much line your have to let out to get the second spood down where you want it before you clip on your second spoon. Float the spoon out. This will be above the line. Let out slowly. It will tangle, if you don't. Once again you can target different depths by this method. Want to get the deep diver to go deeper. For deep water fishing with this combination, add a clip on weight 50 foot after the second clip on lure. I had 21 double headers of Walleye last year using these systems. Best doubler was a 10 and 11 pounder. Year before, you wouldn't believe me if I told you.

We do a lot of fishing up near the Canadian line in deep water, 50-55 foot. Yes, I have a Canadian license, just in case. Hook up a Reef runner deep diver. Let 50 foot of line out. According to Precision Trolling handbook. The Reef runner should be down 16 foot at 50 feet out. Clip on a 6 oz weight, will put the line at a 45 degree angle at 2 miles per hour. 2:1 ratio. 40 foot of line out will put you another 20 foot down and the Reef runner at 36 foot down. Clip on a spoon and float out. Let line out 20 so the spoon is 10 foot down, putting the Reef runner46 foot down. If you see fish on the bottom and at half way up. Figure a combination out.

Hot bite in the top ten foot of the water column. Say Reef runner out 22 foot, down ten, add a bobber, and clip on another reef runner up line. Good for long lining because you can let this combination way out, a couple hundred feet behind the boat out of the noise and sight zone. We have found the fishing production goes way up. We use 2 1/2 inch styrofoam chartrouse boobbers, clipped on of course. Easy with clip ons to take fish off or remove a lure that your brining in that doesn't have a fish on it.

Made a mistake on the second paragraph of the previous Allen Nielsen post. Clip on a weight after the reef runner combinations or crank baits to get down deeper. Not with the spoons, as I posted.