Precision Trolling ?

[ackermannsacre]

May need a little clarification on trolling with FireLine.

The dive curve states that a SRRS-7 Shad Rap will run at 15 feet with 180 ft of 10# mono out, and if I am interpreting the conversion chart correctly, will run at 15 feet with only 67 ft of 10# FireLine out. Is that about right?

The book also states that max running depth of many lures can be increased by about 150% by using FireLine. The next question is how to guestimate the amount of FireLine out needed to reach say 22 feet with the same lure since it doesn't have a mono equivilent to refer to?

[ETT]

It actually calls for 180' of 10# Xt for 15' down, the conversion chart tells you that tou'll need 128' of 10/4 Fireline to reach that depth. Hope this helps,good luck.

[ackermannsacre]

The way I see the charts the SRRS-5 needs 128' of 10/4 FirLine and the SRRS-7 would only need 67" of 10/4 FireLine to reach down 15 feet, unless I'm missing something?

[ETT]

you are so right!!! I was looking at the wrong line. MY BAD. Thanks for straightening me out.

[SS2]

Hi Bill,

342.5 ft to reach 22 ft with the SSRS7 & 4 lb diameter.

150% of 15 ft = 22.5 :) (check PT example and text prior to where you found the reference to 150%)

Anything in between the max on the curve and 150%, you'll need to "troll til you touch, measure lead" and create your own curve or let the fish tell you when you get it right. But in your case, you know you'll get 19 ft with 180 ft lead by using the curve and conversion and around 22.5 ft with 375 (PT says estimate in regards to 150%).

375-180=195 ft difference between the two. There are six unknown 0.5 ft increments between the known depths 19=180 & 22.5=375). 195/6=32.5 ft more lead for each additional 1/2 ft of depth past 19. Since 22.5 is the closest known, subtract 32.5 from 375 = 342.5 ft for 22 ft down. The fudge factor is the curve may flatten out more towards the end (it's already pretty flat) but also it takes a lot more line to make a difference.

Still with me? There is about 67 ft difference between 14 (113) and 15 (180) ft of depth for the SSRS7 on the curve. That's 33.5 ft for each 1/2 ft increment at that point on the curve. This tells us that in this situation, either my math is wrong, I overlooked something or the SSRS7 is not going to reach 22.5 ft of depth with a 375 ft lead as estimated by PT information because dive curves don't get steeper with increased depth.

I didn't scratch this after my check because I could be right or maybe someone will explain what I missed. I THINK it could also suggest the curve gets pretty linear at that point and the differences aren't significant.

Personally, I'd use a rr or something intended to go 22 ft:)

Hope this helps:)
SS

[ETT]

He talking about the SRRS 7, not the SSR 7.

[SUPERTROLLER]

The way I read it is if he is using 10/4 Fireline and wants 22 ft., he would multiply 67 ft. (of Fireline to get to 15 ft.) * 150% = 100.5 ft. of line out. This is because 22 ft. is also 150% of 15 ft. Also, because there is no stretch involved with Fireline the dive curves are far less flat at the far extreme lengths when running long long leads. When I have talked to Mark Romanack, he has said that essentially, a lure on any Superline will continue to dive according to it's natural dive curve and is limited only by your own common sense and the amount of line on your reel. Therefore, he could conceiveably reach much deeper if he wants to continue to let line out to say 180 ft. as the dive curve shows with Mono. This does not mean that he would be 39.6 ft.(180% times 100 ft.), but you would at least have an idea as to the supposed depth.

[Silentsixty]

The information is intended to apply to the SRRS-7 Rattlin' Suspending Shad Rap. I apologize for any inconvenience.

-------
" ETT Tue Jun-07-05 11:40 AM
Charter member
2523 posts

#36373, "RE: Precision Trolling ?"
In response to Reply # 4


He talking about the SRRS 7, not the SSR 7.

------
Actually, I indicated SSRS7 which probably provides a clue to the quality of the information since it doesn't exist (or at least isn't in PT).

Another hot day in Ohio.

Good Luck,
SS

PS - ST, will this convince you? same bait 170 - 180 back on 10 lb dia will get you 15 ft based on the curve. Now go to the conversion chart - 15 ft dive curve depth (10 lb dia) = 19 ft depth w/4 lb dia. :) Another check is to read through the example in the PT seventh edition section titled "Multi-Filament Lines and Super Long Line Trolling".

I think what I explained fits the PT explanation and example with the exception that one is required to assume the "curve" is a straight line between the two known data points (depth for 4lb dia at end of 10 lb dia curve) & (depth for 4lb dia at 375 ft which is assumed as "...rule of thumb..." 150% of depth for 10 lb dia at end of curve).

I guess you could plot the data points (record lead length differences) for depths less than 19 ft for 4lb dia to look for a pattern... but I'd think linecounter accuracy would be a bigger consideration.

New stuff in PT 7th ed when compared to 5th. Best Wishes

[SUPERTROLLER]

I believe our difference of opinion rests on the use of the conversion charts. Fireline at 4 lb. diameter will give you a 25% increase in depth when compared to 10 lb. XT Mono at the given length out. I'm saying that since he can hit 15 ft. so much sooner with 4 lb. diameter fireline and it's no stretch properties, that there is that much less water force pushing up on the thinner line and the lure not putting stretch on the mono that he is able to reach deeper at 180 ft. than the chart actually shows by multiplying that depth by the same 25% gain in depth. This is because that is the absolute maximum on Mono line where the lure and that extreme length on line have stopped diving and thus there is no actual diving still occuring. The "curve" is about flat at that point. They did not test lures with Fireline or other Superlines. They test with 10 lb. XT Mono and at those lengths to reach a lures max depth because most of are are not going to run lines out farther than that behind the boat. It's just not practical. When the lures are still on a normal dive curve on a smaller diameter Superline at the backend of the dive curves, there is no built in stretch in the line and less bouyancy from the water resistance on the thinner line, therefore the lure is still diving. I'm just guessing at a depth but it looks like you are too. If you assume he can reach 19 ft. at 180,,, he's only 3 ft. short of his target depth. I find it hard to think that he would have to double his length out to acheive that last 3 ft. due to the flattened dive curve at that length out. I don't think you can assume that same 25% gain once the curve has already reached the area of diminished returns as the curve flattens. I'd like to see a comment from Mark Romanack here but realize he's a very busy man and odds are that he will not even see this. Anyone else care to add an opinion to our discussion? I'd like to see what other people think on this topic: Once we have reached the limits of the dive curves, how do you extrapolate the data to fit with Superlines? Anyone else with an idea is more than welcome.

[perchjerker]

I contacted Mark about this. Im sure he will clear it up for us.

[JAB]

Anyone have any opinions on using say 40# or 50# Power pro for trooling? They are around the same diameter as 10# XT. So will all the depth curvers be the same or will the Power Pro line run deeper? Also, would you tie direct or use a swivel?

[Boatnut]

I upgraded from power pro 30/8 to the 40/10 this year in order to more closely match the 10lb diameter. I used to use a mono or flourocarbon leader, but now I just tie to a snap.

[SS2]

JAB, I have my neck stuck out too far now on the other subject to offer an opinion on the curve for larger diameter superlines. Like Boatnut, some very good sticks tie direct to a snap for crankbaits and some very good sticks use fluorocarbon leaders (w/a snap) between the crankbait and braid. No pro but I'm in the no leader camp. One everyone seems to agree on is use a snap (not snap swivel) for cranks that do not have a split ring on the front.

ST,

I appreciate your views. Hopefully a PT rep will post to explain things, otherwise maybe we can chat more next week - all in fun. I agree with most of what you say, the 25% thing seems logical and I'm hesitant to disagree since you talked to the man himself, you just haven't convinced me on what contradicts my opinion:)

My position/assumptions/calculation rides on the line dia conversion chart being accurate and that the PT 7th edition statement "...as a rule of thumb, if you use the 375 ft lead, you can estimate the crankbait running depth to be 150% of the maximum depth on the dive curves." is dead on and PT does mention it is an estimate.

Since the difference between 19 and 22.5 ft (read prev posts) is not huge, I think my assumption the curve is "close enough" to a straight line between the two known points (19 & 22.5) should be reasonable. It might not be nearly as accurate of an assumption if the distance (spread) between the bottom of the curve curve and the 375 ft rule of thumb was greater.

What do I know?, I'm just an old WWTP operator. I'm able to admit I'm wrong, just slow figuring things out, thus, hard to convince:) I do want to learn, especially if I'm wrong.

Have a great weekend!
Silentsixty

I should have done a better job of this earlier: Credit to Precision Trolling 7th edition by Dr, Steven Holt, Mark Romanack, and Tom Irwin. Most recent copyright 2003 by Precision Angling Specialists, LLC 1-800-353-6958

[SUPERTROLLER]

Small world! I also work in a WWTP. I do appreciate the civil exchange of opinions. Hopefully Mark can clear it all up for us if there is a way to know more accurately as to where the depth bottoms out once we leave the limits of the printed dive curves.

Waste Water Treatment Plant- for those of you not in our industry. LOL.

[kingsway2]

I have a question for many of you using the trollers bible. I'm pretty new at this method and I have this book in the 5th edition. How much information has been changed from this book to the new 7th edition? Is it a "must have" or just a "nice to have" tool? Thanks, Rich

[Lyle k]

Is line out referring to line out from rod tip or line out from top of water?

[SS2]

Kingsway,

IMO, tough call, I have 5 & 7 skipped 6. IMO, you gain the 20 plus information and the curves for some baits that were not in #5. PT 7 does not have the dipsy curves, 20 jet curve, Big Jon disks curve, or leadcore info. I didn't look but they may? have dropped a few crankbaits between editions - nothing I noticed. PT 7 had a BUNCH of new curves I wanted.

Lyle K,

Page 17 of ver 5 indicates you use the curve distances when attaching
a planer board OR (I added caps on OR) release to obtain a dive curve depth. Preceding topic is about both mast/ski's and in-lines. Only reference I found. It was discussed at least once here on WC if you want to try an advanced search (I'd try General Discussion 1st)

In PT 5 it states a specific distance off the water surface on the dipsy curve page (specific to them), likely addressed in the Big Water edition.

Regards,
SS