The Future of GPS and Products like Lake Master

[MikeS]

Over the last several weeks there has been discussion about transfering GPS coordinates and digital maps which have 1 foot contour lines to plotters. Most of the manufactures of chart/plotters are not hearing the needs of the fisherman and make it difficult, time consuming and sometimes immpossible to get the map details loaded on their devices. Plus they are charging exorbinant amounts of money for preloaded chips and overcharging for the expansion memory chips when looking at the wholesale price for such chips. I will grant you the packaging is differnt, but it's the old business model that IBM failed at years ago by trying to drive a propreitary vertical solution.

I suggest that in the not to distant future the cost of the PC components will be such that they (our bread and butter brand name chart manufactures) will go out of business. Why? Take a look at Panasonics "tough book" series of mobile computers see: http://www.panasonic.com/computer/notebook/html/01a8.htm as an example of a PC with built in GPS circuitry. Ok, when you look at it doesn't say anything about WAAS. I suggest it's just a matter of sourcing a PCMCIA card or the aviation market will drive Panasonic to incorporate it if it's not already WAAS capable. They have other models in the tough book line that can be adapted as well. Including a detachable LCD display that is made to handle tough outdoor ligthing conditions in color. Not only do you eliminate the need to transfer data back and forth between devices by going with this approach. You can conceivably add 3D and other features by using off the shelf pc software. Also, you might be able to integrate other software applications like fishing logs, pictures of bottom structure, and the ideas can be limited only to one's imagination. Heck, imagine this forum which we all love for sharing ideas suddenly becomes close to real time by taking a picture of your 10 lb "eye" and posting it here via wireless almost immediately after the catch. Imagine being able to help your fishing buddies zero in on the pattern of the day by sharing meaningful information by hitting the send button. The possibilites are endless...and to a degree might not be wanted by everyone. However, technology will not stop. Our sport is always in a state of becoming.

The point I'm trying to make is the cross over price point on going with such an approach with more features and benefits is not that far off. Today a high end GPS unit can run close to $2000 dollars and the standard(not ruggedized) PC notebook is going for less than a $1000. Perhaps, the Lowrance's, Garmins, Raytheon's and others need to take notice that a competitor is lurking on the side line to take over their market space. When I hear comments from the people at Lake Master today at the Madison fishing expo that Lowrance doesn't want to do the software port required to make Lake Masters product work with theirs, I figure their arrogance will catch up with them. When I hear Fishing Hot Spots say they only license their intellectual property to the device manufacturers and have no ability to influence when it will hit the market, I figure they are not partnering with the right device people. Sure, we can hear from marine device manufacturers defensive comments about durability and relability, etc., but I would argue that some of the features already built into the tough book series are based on military standards and already are being used in applications almost as severe as a fishing boat can dish out. Also, people like Ram Mount are just releasing PC mounting stations which incorporate shock absorbtion techniques when combined with gel mounting of the hard drive in the tough book series conditions like vibration and shock are minimized such that the design spec is not violated. Heck, you could even put in a solid state hard drive if you wanted to and make it a mute point. Most of the software doesn't require massivie amounts of storage capacity.
see http://www.ram-mount.com/ramcat/ram%20computer%20pictures.pdf

Oh well, so much for standing on the soap box..... what do you think?

I for one am going to experiment with this approach and then who knows I might spend the money on the new toy. With the cost being close to cross over, I'm starting to think the increased functionality will be worth. Imagine being able to really have the computing power to zero in on the "spot on the spot".

PS: Lake Master will be releasing Mississippi River one foot contour maps for the Upper Mississippi Pool areas sometime before summer. They claim the maps will include back water areas. I'm impressed.

[Mike Michalak]

Mike S...

As long as you've relinquished the soap box, I'll take it if you don't mind.

First, to suggest that Fishing Hot Spots will "only" license its data to the manufacturers you suggest is no where near accurate. While I cannot go into great detail here because of contractural reasons, understand that our company is poised to take fishing to the next level.

Second, there is no industry standard for applying data into GPS electronics. Lowrance has their own operating system, as do Garmin, RayMarine, Si-Tex, Northstar, Furuno, Techsonic and others. These companies want "turn-key" data...information they don't necessarily want to manipulate themselves because that's not their business...it's ours. It's slow going right now because this is new stuff. Lowrance owns the "fish finder" market, but there's a lot of competition right now. Garmin is huge in the GPS market and brand new to fishing. The way technology moves these days, you guys will end up winning in the long run as these "big guys" battle it out. We're proud to be in the mix.

Imagine this scenario...you're in the middle of Lake Erie and grab your GPS ready cell phone. You dial up your Internet service provider and have a map downloaded to the phone, pinpointing your location complete with a contour map. Far fetched? Nope.

Nearly every penny we make is poured directly back into our products. The research stems far beyond lakes and rivers. It takes time to do these waters. I can't knock the one-foot contours that ReelBottom offers. There's a place for it. Will the compression ratios for data handle it in a 4-1/2" mono screen on a GPS unit? I don't know. We're in the "where-to" side of the fishing business. That means accurate maps and information...lots of information. Nothing will ever replace the paper map.

No map can get everything beneath the water. We know because we take our lumps on this site in addition to dozens of others from guys who tell us, and sometimes not too politely. But guess what? That makes us better.

The tone of your message rings true. We at FHS try and guide the companies we partner with to bring products to market that will appeal to the majority. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But, we're all getting better and prices will fall. As with fishing, patience pays off.

Thanks, Mike, for your opinions. We, like LakeMaster and other companies frequenting this site, do listen. Good luck on the water!

[MikeS]

To the President of Fishing Hot Spots:

First, I want you to know I have been a loyal customer of yours over the years. Indeed, I have purchased many lake maps for Wiscosnin and Minnesota. Your product has made my fishing experiences more enjoyable and productive, especially so when fishing a new lake.

Second, I’m pleased to learn you are contractually working with others. Also, you misinterpreted my comment as a suggestion to “only” the existing brands found in our boats. This was my mistake in so much as I was not writing clearly. I was trying to convey exactly the point you make about the device manufacturers having there own operating systems and that the PC platform to a great degree is based on open standards with the caveat of Microsoft’s monopoly on the PC operating system. However, it’s true I was to a degree trying to elicit a response from you in regards to some of your posts. I quote you “Will the compression ratios for data handle it in a 4-1/2" mono screen on a GPS unit? I don't know. We're in the "where-to" side of the fishing business. That means accurate maps and information...lots of information. Nothing will ever replace the paper map.” “Like so many other things, this is cutting edge technology. We're working with a number of manufacturers to get this info to all of you in units you're already using and at a price that's competitive” "As the HotMaps continue to grow, and the Garmins, Lowrances, Raytheons, SiTexs, Furunos, and North Stars of the world that utilize Navionics data get their software together, that data will be used better and better. All the information is there. It just needs a system to get at it." Why? Because I believe spending some of your research and development money on a display specification like the one used on the Panasonic PDRC (10.4” x 1.2” thin ToughScreen ™ fixed-mount LCD with 1000 Nit brightness – 10x brighter than standard LCD) might provide me a much better user experience with your product rather than trying to make the “shoe fit”.

The point is there might be a better alternative outside the mainstream plotter marketplace. When I learned today that I can plot and see a course with the Lake Master product on a pc by simply turning on a switch in their software while my GPS is connected to it. I started to think about the alternatives. I plan on taking my laptop out on the boat and experimenting with it. Also, I spent quite a bit of time with Russ from Marine General in trying to figure out the arcane menu system on a GPS with the map cartridges to get the most robust look and feel to the compressed data you mention about not being able to handle in a 4 ½” screen. It was a frustrating experience.

I like your scenario on the cell phone. You are correct it is not far fetched. The technology already exists to make it happen. Albeit, it is not in a commercially available form, but could reasonably be done by a technically competent person configuring off the self products to make it happen. The state of technology is evolving quickly between handheld pc’s, personal digital assistants and hybrid cell phones like Nokia’s 9290 communicator. Eventually, in the not to distant future someone will bundle the solution you suggest.

Touché on “We at FHS try and guide the companies we partner with to bring products to market that will appeal to the majority. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But, we're all getting better and prices will fall. As with fishing, patience pays off.”

However, having made a living in the high tech field for the past 15 years one thing I know to be true is that patience is not always rewarded - time to market is!

[ANXIOUS]

HEY MIKE, A YEAR AGO WHEN EVERYONE WAS TRYING TO WORK THROUGH THE SOFTWARE UPGRADES ON THE X-15MT YOU SAID TO HANG IN THERE GREAT THINGS ARE ABOUT TO HAPPEN. WELL... IT'S BEEN A YEAR AND I HAVENT SEEN ANYTHING SPECIAL HAPPEN YET. WHEN YOU SAID THAT I FELT LIKE IT WAS GONNA HAPPEN SOON. WITH ALL THOSE INITIAL UP GRADES I WAS ANTICIPATING SOMETHING BIG TO HAPPEN. I KNOW YOU ARENT WITH LOWRANCE SO DONT GET RILED,IM JUST SAYING.... IM STILL ANXIOUS!!

[EyeOnFish]

Interesting topic...I'm all for getting better tools and getting more knowledge about where to find the "eyes"

[Mike Michalak]

Don't worry Anxious, it takes quite a bit to get me riled.

And you're right, we're not Lowrance, but we do work with Navionics, who supplies their data. In the last year you saw the number of lakes available triple. To me, that's fairly significant. All the hardware stuff is strictly up to Lowrance.

Am I still confident of bigger and better things to come? You bet! And, like you, I'm anxious to see what they come up with.

[Phil T.]

It's no great leap to visualize cell phone/gps service similar to the GM Northstar and similar auotmobile tracking systems.
The future boat console will likely contain a computer that monitors the "health" of all the systems onboad, including batteries, engines, and electronic accessories. Again, it could borrow from the automobile industry. The highest-thech outboards already have the diagnostics, they're just under the cowling for the benifit of the service techs.
All that is needed for more precise depth/location displays is more memory for the instrument's computer. Memory prices cycle with the health of the PC industry, but overall the $/megabyte is dropping fast.
Don't, however, expect the fishing accessory industry to leap into higher-tech models. New boat sales were under 600,000 uits last year. Compared to the automobile industry, the whole boating business is a flea on a very big dog. Most of that flea belongs to the pleasure boat/cruiser divisions. Volume is so low, and wholesale prices are squeezed so much by the "Marts", and Bass Pro and Cabela's, and even West Marine and the like, that many of the supposedly big manufacturers of fishing accessories are in reality near bankruptcy and existing on the narrowest of profit margins. About 80% of the American population lives within 100 miles of an ocean, gulf, or Great Lakes. That should put another bit of reality check into expectations of major advances aimed at the small boat owner. If we continue to be satisfied, even pleased, with old technology, that's what we'll get. I have, on a basement shelf, a 1984 AquaMeter lcd "flasher". Also in that year, OMC offered a model with a vertical bar display(same computer chip). If these sound like "modern" units from a division of Humminbird, they should. I also have an early-90's Eagle 9500 lcd graph unit. Except for resolution and gps instead of Loran-C, the highly-acclaimed Lowrance 350 does nothing my old Eagle 9500 doesn't do. As for video display units, I can recall from the late 80's/early 90's the availability of a "black box" depthfinder that used a 12 volt television for the display. Charter boat captians liked it because it entertained the clients when the fish were missing the lures.

[Sunshine]

MikeS

I like your thinking. It takes visionaries like you to make things happen in all industries. I hope that everyone thinks about your scenario. Let's see:

I bought a $50.00 Lake Master CD that has great detail.
I bought a $29.00 cable on the net that hooks my GPS to my computer.
I have a handheld Garmin GPS unit that cost me $149 on sale.
And I have semi-outdated laptop that's been replaced and is in need of a job.

I can put all of these inexpensive devices together and I end up with a better display unit than those offered by the high priced GPS units.

The only drawbacks would be battery drain on the laptop and occasional inclement weather. I bet that if we keep this discussion going, we can come up with solutions for these too.

Great idea!! I'll be trying it too. You're on to something BIG!


Mike Michalak,
I respectfully disagree with you. We will not always need printed maps. If this kind of scenario takes off, I would only use the maps stored on my laptop(s)

[Sparky]

I agree with Mike about paper maps. Just like I wouldn't want to be without a backup VHS, automatic fire system with backup manual extinguishers, GPS, Loran, Compass, and life jackets. Hi tech is nice but, it all requires electricity and things do go wrong. I work in the technology side of things and I've even seen UPS "failsafe" systems go on the fritz. If you've been fishing with electronics long, you''ve seen the fabled GPS system blink. Losing a little money or production is one thing, losing your or someone elses life is another. I will carry paper.

[Gumbo]

There's always "what's technically possible" and "what will people buy". Though I'm not in the GPS or mapping business, I'd guess people want turnkey solutions that incorporate the latest GPS advancements plus the latest mapping options. However, which mapping technology should a hardware company choose to go with? It's still such a new and rapidly advancing area. And both consumers and mfg's don't want to sink money into a proprietary technology that will go the route beta VCRs took. This sort of cycle is typical in technology. First the dust needs to settle until a standard emerges. Then all parties can work to provide their part of the mapping solution.