Catch & Release of Walleye Caught Deep!

[Bouncer]

What's the latest and greatest on releasing fish caught deep? I found some good threads from a couple of years ago related to the differing schools of thought on how best to catch and release fish caught in 30+ feet of water. Guys around here in the northwest are catching fish as deep as 85 feet! How does one release a fish caught that deep and expect it to survive? Some say a slow fight to the surface is the key. Others say a fast capture and rapid release is the ticket. Still others have differing opinions on the best techniques for venting or fizzing fish so as to release gas from inflated bladders. I understand some research was being done on the "best practices" on the catch and release of deep fish. Is anyone up on the latest information related to this issue?

[Chad]

I don't care what anyone says, if you are fishing that extreme you better be ready to keep what you catch, period! They may swim away but they are not gonna survive.

ChadM

[Bouncer]

I can appreciate that! And I don't necessarily disagree. However, I would really like to encourage some open-minded thinking here. I know there's research out there on the topic. Surely we have some folks on the site that are connected with some of the latest findings by Queens University Fish Biologist Dr. Bruce Tufts and others that have been researching catch & release issues like this. I hear what you're saying though. I don't think the Fall is a good time to cull fish at 60 feet of water or better. Thanks for the input.

[retire55]

There is a Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources (OMNR) report on fizzing entitled A Review of "Fizzing" - A Technique for Swim Bladder Deflation (prepared by S.J. Kerr in Nov 2001).

The executive summary of that report concluded with:

Pending further research and evaluation, the widespread use of "fizzing" should be discouraged in Ontario.

Within the report it is stated that "Based on a relatively small number of studies which have been conducted to date, depressurization of angled fish can be a significant source of mortality. Up to 45% of fish caught at depths exceeding 10 meters (33 feet) do not survive release".

The same report states "Undoubtedly, the success of fizzing depends on the conditions at the time and also on the training and experience of the individual performing the procedure. It is a difficult procedure to perform accurately and, from an anatomical perspective, there is very little room for error."

The report provides the results of recent surveys on the administration and regulation of competitive fishing activities in both the United States and in Canada. In response to the question "Do you advocate fizzing", 27 of 47 US jurisdictions (states) responded no, 8 jurisdictions responded yes, and 10 jurisdictions stated that they had no formal policy on the issue. In Canada, 7 of 12 jurisdictions responded no to the question while 5 jurisdictions stated that they had no formal policy on fizzing.

[Proof]

I know fishing in 40 to 100 feet is probably not a good idea unless your out for meat.

BUT, I would like someone to prove that a fish caught in 85' and released will die!

HOW DO YOU KNOW! The only proof that I have is I caught one twice 3 days apart. The reason I know is because it was missing half of its dorsal fin and a bit deformed. That was out of 65 feet of water.

I would take a educated guess that the mortality rate is low but they all dont die.

[lundman1665]

We fished in a 30 foot hole and caught saugers that 95% of them had thei air sacks in their throats.After a meeting with the local biologist he said that once the air sack is up in the throat there is a slim chance for survival. He said the best thing you can do is keep the fish you catch that deep or dont fish that deep. He also said that even though the fish swim away they wont survive because a fishes air sack will give out just as a human that goes scuba diving and comes up too fast. Good topic! Lundman

[Chad M]

Our fishing club has asked the DNR and they told us not to even bother fizzing fish because they believe the fish will be under too much stress and will die within a few days. Stress is a major problem for fish. I would guess being jerked from 85' of water is very stressfull. The air sack expands and I would also guess the other organs are stressed. Most fish I have caught deep have bulging eyes too.

[Powerdive]

I think water temp plays a major role in this.

We catch walleyes at 70-75 feet in winter, with surface temps in the low 40s, and most SEEM to release OK. Especially if you don't rocket them to the surface during the fight. If a fish struggles, fizzing or splooshing usually gets them going back down.

Crappies, forget it. They're tough to release back to ultra-deep water.

[Burr]

Chad's right with the DNR conversation.

If I had to read into the MN DNR's position - if they had to make a statement of either support, or non-support for fizzing, it would absolutely be against fizzing. If your not going to keep fish caught deep, well, nature is going to take it's course.

If you believe lakes and rivers have a carrying capacity, that the population will tend to gravitate to the ideal. Then the idea would be the 4 lber that dies after release, will allow the body of water to support 4 lbs of walleye that otherwise did not have room in the eco system.

I was surprised when I started talking to both biologists and DNR employees about fizzing. I'm lead to believe it's not nearly as successful as I would like to believe it is. A non-position on fizzing is a position against it, not for it. They're just saying the population will recover from fish that die.

I would be interested in any research papers on the subject too.

[deepDivers]

Just an observation on a few of the great lakes in the fall when fishing for walleye. I have seen walleye on the sonar running 65 to 70 feet down and then you see them streak to 15 feet and then back down. Set up some cranks at 10 to 15 feet below the surface behind in-lines and all of a sudden the board goes under. The walleye came up, took the bait and went back down to the depths. Now I get the walleye into the boat and release it and watch it on the sonar go from the surface all the way to the bottom in 110 feet of water.

So are walleye more flexible than we think?
Has any research been done on this type of activity with walleye?
Has anyone else ever experienced this activity?

[AllenW]

For a very short time we used to catch sauger in 50+ foot of water many years ago, then figured we were killing them so we stopped, no sense in taking a chance just for the sport of it, to many other fish in shallower water, least on Red Lake Ont.

Be interesting to find a good way to release them though.


Good post

Al

[Proof]

I would love to see a test done with nets from the surface of a lake to 60' down to 100'. To see how the mortality rates really do show up. It would be very expensive but also very useful IMO.

Then have these fish caught and released back into the test area. Have divers go down a check on the fish 2 -3 times a day for a week and see how this adds up.

Granted there are a number of factors like water quality and water temp that could weigh in on this.

It would a great study to have completed.

[AllenW]

Might be able to tag the fish with a transmitter, probably be cheaper than divers?
Spendy maybe, but just need to get some reseach group interested I think.


Al

[Bouncer]

Actually, Dr. Bruce Tufts, A Fish Biologist with Queens University and his team of PHD students have been doing research on this issue for a few years now. I haven't heard any new findings, but have asked via email for some input. I will post it here if I get a response.

[jeff woodruff]

I caught walleyes in 88 ft. of water. Their air bladder was in the mouth. Put them in the livewell and 15 minutea later they had swallowed it back down. Swam around in the well for a couple of hours before I cleaned them. These were 17 inch fish. I dont know if they would live if realesed, but they were real frisky in the well.

[deepDivers]

Fish physiologist Dr. Bruce Tufts and Shimano Canada's research pertains to Bends in Small Mouth Bass.

http://www.nserc.ca/news/stories/040714_e.htm

[AllenW]

"""""
"My prediction is that if they're released within a short period of time, they'll actually be able to swim back down to the right depth and they'll be fine," says Dr. Tufts, noting that the fish would naturally do what humans accomplish by using a decompression room.
"""""""

Appears this may explain why some have problems with releasing and some don't? Or at least a possibility.

I'm also wondering if slowing your retrieval time down would help?
Either way, it looks like, get them off the hook and back in the water asap will help.

Al

[bouncer]

I have seen some reference to how the fish move in the water column. Some fish don't so much! Walleye do! However, the speed of which fish can ascend in the water column varies by species. And as long as they're moving in the water column on their own accord, they're ok. They apparently have the capacity to prepare themselves to ascend for attack by somehow controlling the chemical levels in their systems. They have better systems to cope with rapid changes in pressure. However, when stressed and fighting on the end of your line, they apparently don't have the capacity to cope and adjust they're systems as necessary. Of course, I'm sure they're not thinking they're screwed and going to be yanked out of the water in a minute or two.

[bouncer]

http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8675(1996)016%3C0201:EODAPT%3E2.3.CO%3B2

[AllenW]

Got this with that link bouncer ??

We're sorry. We could not locate the resource you requested. If you believe this is in error, please contact us at helpdesk@allenpress.com. Be sure to include the complete URL you were attempting to access when you encountered this error.

Al

[bouncer]

Oops! My Bad! Here's it cut and pasted...

Helping fish beat the bends

Getting let off the hook isn't necessarily the end of a fish's problems, says a Canadian fish scientist. The catch, though released, might have the bends. The surprising finding that our finned relatives can also experience the bends, or decompression sickness, is the latest result from a three-year study to improve the condition of fish caught in tournaments.

"The interesting thing is that our results show that when fish are rapidly brought to the surface from depth, they experience the equivalent of the bends, just like humans," says Dr. Bruce Tufts, a Queen's University biologist who has spent the past decade researching ways to maximize the conservation benefits of catch-and-release recreational fishing.

"When we've talked about this at scientific meetings, a lot of my colleagues have said, 'Wow.' It really surprises them."

SCUBA divers are hyper-aware of the need to gradually ascend when they're diving in deep water. This gives their bodies time to naturally decompress as they rise in the water column.

Previously, however, there has only been anecdotal evidence that fish also experience decompression woes. Anglers, especially those fishing in deep ocean waters, have seen fish with over-inflated swim bladders (a balloon-like internal sac that aids buoyancy) that are unable to right themselves when released.

Dr. Tufts' study is the first to look for the tell-tale internal, chemical signs of the bends.

His research shows that fish, in this case smallmouth bass, on the end of a hook in as little as five meters (about 25 feet) of water are like divers being yanked-up from the deep. Their bodies don't have time to adapt.

"Internally, what the fish experience is very similar to humans with the bends," says Dr. Tufts. "Depending on the depths and the time the fish spends at the surface, there can be gas bubble formation in the blood and enzymes in the blood that indicate tissue damage."

The results of the study, co-authored with three of Dr. Tufts students, will appear in an upcoming issue of the Transactions of the American Fisheries Society. The research was funded by NSERC and Shimano Canada Limited, through NSERC's university-industry collaborative research and development grants program.

To get the results, Dr. Tufts' team operated like sports medicine doctors at smallmouth bass fishing tournaments, taking blood samples from caught fish. The blood samples were analyzed for enzymes in the blood that indicate cellular damage in much the same way as human blood samples are analyzed to look for tissue damage after a suspected heart attack.

Dr. Tufts says that though almost nothing is scientifically known about how having the bends affects a fish's chance of survival, it could be a significant conservation issue in deeper lakes across North America.

He says the current study is the first in a series of research projects on the topic with the goal of finding constructive solutions to the problem. And he's optimistic that his research group will be able to identify ways to minimize the survival impact of quick ascent on fish by identifying the factors, primarily time at the surface, that threaten their ability to recover from the decompression sickness.

"My prediction is that if they're released within a short period of time, they'll actually be able to swim back down to the right depth and they'll be fine," says Dr. Tufts, noting that the fish would naturally do what humans accomplish by using a decompression room.

Dr. Tufts emphasizes that his collaborative research with Shimano Canada Limited and recreational anglers is focused on finding cooperative, science-based solutions to make fisheries more sustainable.

"What I'd like to develop are some best practice guidelines for catching and releasing fish from depth," he says. These might include having more prompt weigh-ins during tournaments to minimize the time fish are kept in tanks at the surface.

A major milestone in this process was marked recently when Shimano introduced a new water weigh-in system, developed in cooperation with Dr. Tufts' lab, to the North American tournament industry. The system, which uses an aquarium-like tank to weigh the fish in water, was trial tested last year on the Canadian Fishing Tour, one of Canada's premier tournament circuits. The new system significantly reduces the stress fish experience as a result of the traditional process of being weighed out of water.

Says Dr. Tufts, "My goal in working with the recreational fishing industry, which is a huge industry in Canada, is to try and make their practices as environmentally friendly as possible."

Contact:
Dr. Bruce Tufts
Tel.: (613) 533-6143
E-mail: tuftsb@biology.queensu.ca
Visit Dr. Tufts' Web site at http://biology.queensu.ca/%7Etuftsb/

[Juls]

That's because for some reason the entire link does not highlight in his post. I tried to correct it, but it's a flaw from the link's site I guess.
Bouncer has copy/pasted it above. Or, you can just copy/paste his link to your address bar, and then that site will come up for you.

Juls

[bouncer]

I had some communication with a fish biologist out of Australia who has done research on deep water catch and release. Her name is Jill St John! Here is some of the dialogue she shares...

"Thanks for your email. Youve raised a lot of difficult issues to overcome.
There are two questions to be answered here about the usefulness of catch and release, which can be considered from the fish's and the anglers point of view.

A benthic fish that is not adapted to swimming up and down the water column (i.e. adapted to pressure change) will suffer from barotrauma and needs to recompress as quickly as possible.
In my view when fishing to release these kinds of fish the best approach is to
bring them up slowly (but not play them as a sport fish)
minimise time on board and
get them back to the bottom quickly. Some WA fishers have devised a shotline or release weight that gets fish back down the bottom quickly (see attached pamplet).

The other issue is about fishing and fishers rights. I believe that gone are the days when anglers could take what they want and release the rest because catch and release harms all fish, even if it doesnt kill them.
Fish that are caught from deep waters should be kept to eat (and you have to assume that they wont high grade a smaller dead fish for a larger one). Catch and release in shallow water should be done with caution and minimised. A population of fish that are regularly being caught and released will be a stressed population of fish and are likely not to breed as well or cope with other natural environmental stresses."

She continues in another email about the thing that protrudes from the mouth of some fish captured deep that many think are the bladder. There are also other obvious indications of a fish that is bent and likely to have problems...

"The "bladder" is actually the stomach as the swim bladder is not connected to the mouth. It should be left alone and not pierced as some think. There are lots of signs of barotrauma depending on the species of fish.
The most common is ths swollen swimbladder (stomach) but other signs include
eyes bulging
anus protruding from rectum, bleeding shows damage
stomach everted in mouth as you discussed
air bubbles can be evident in eyes, gills (foaming) fins etc"

[ian jason]

Hi,

fishing for zander in the Netherlands , but it's the same thing overhere....i've caught fish in 85+ dephts and they all had their inside hangin out, but i released them all and didnt see one floater!
On the other hand ,..yesterday i caught two really nice zanders and they came from as deep as 35ft, and didnt survive!
They too had their inside hangin out,..so ...you cant really say what is going to happen for sure.
What stands out is that ,when i fish jigs vertically(with dyneema & and using a rod that is very quick).. the fish is pumped to the surface much faster. And on other times when i fish lindy-rigs with minnows, i use mono , and it takes much longer to surface the fish,and you dont see as much problems with that!
But,....i dont know for sure if they will survive
This is a very good topic!
I respect someone's opinion and dont fish that deep or keep the catch,but on the otherhand, if you dont get a lot of bites , and the fish goes nuts in deeper waters,..what do you do?
I think that most of the fishermen will go deep.
But this is a very good topic.
Overhere in the Netherlands we have a zander competition and the board decided that it's not permitted to fish deeper than 34 ft.
That is a good option, but that has ofcourse a lot do do with the fact that being a tournament and having a lot of exposure,and standing in the limelight,so thats a bit of topic, but a good desission from the tournament board!

ian jason

[rspahr]

What is considered deep? I have caught big striped bass down in the 25 - 30 feet depth and then they have come up to bust the surface and then they have gone back down deep. If this was a big deal I don't think that they would do this on their own?