U.P Q.D.M

[V.Hansen]

It is in my view that there is only one answer to quality deer managment in the Upper Pen,MI...Yes,Yes,YES..If you have any doubt in this you are not a deer hunter but a deer killer.There are those who like to kill deer to eat regardless of size and thats fine.Shot a doe eat it and be happy you have done so.Or do you like the macho idea that you got a nice trophy spike horn.Give me a break people.There is not one person who has sat in the woods with thier bow ,gun,muzzle loader,or even thier slingshot that has not day dreamed of the day when old mossy horn gave them a shot,thus fullfilling every hunters dream,(a true trophy whitetail)The thought that the land cannot handle the population of deer if QDM is implimented in the U.P. is rediculas.Richard P. Smith,outdoor writter says QDM will not work in the U.P.He states to many deer will die in the winter months.Then in the next breath he says,in the U.P., Mother nature will take care of her own, (as far as population) concerning the michigan deer herd.He as well as the popular radio program,The Outspoken Sportsman,state that the only folks that will benefit from the new regulations are property owners..Im not a property owner by the way..This is a big bunch of bullsh--.There are alot of places to hunt and plenty of areas for bucks to grow old if they are allowed to.Lets face it the regulations that are in place now are not working.This is a five year plan.The only folks that appose this new plan are deer killers not hunters..Or maybe they are afriad of change,or they are less educated then they think they are.If you dont think QDM will work for a more balanced deer herd,as well as a better overall hunting experience.You might want to read the laws governing deer hunting in Illinois,or maybe Buffalo county Wis.Lets face it,nine out of ten hunt for the trophy,not the meat.If you need the meat get a doe tag.Only us true hunters can make this work.As for the rest of you,sit back and watch, if QDM fails you can say I told you so.However, when your out thier and you start seeing them northern giants,that the U.P. is capable of, you will be glad You didnt listen to the Outspoken sportsmen radio program ,or the narrow minded dribblings of Richard P. Smith,whoever that is. Sincerly written to all Outdoorsmen.

[Gary Korsgaden]

This is a point I urge "Sportman Hunters" read again...since I adopted the QDM principles on my property other landowners are slowly
adopting the same. I can't understand the rational with all the bonus
antlerless tags available, why a hunter would harvest a small buck of 8 points or less. Actually, it is the yearling that are the first to go in a tough winter. By harvesting bucks and leaving alot of does the rut can be extended, does will have fawns later and the remaining bucks will be forced to rut into January and become extremely run down into the tough part of winter. It is clear QDM is important and harvesting of antlerless deer is vital. Not just to have bigger bucks but a more healthy deer herd in balance. Lastly, since passing on smallwer bucks that avail themselves right away I have seen deer activity I wouldn't of seen before, Consquently, my hunt is far morew enjoyable. This post is right on......

[Real hunter]

I disagree with the both of you. You talk of "quality hunts", but whose definition? Surveys (in MN) have shown that the majority of hunters call a "quality hunt" one in which they get a deer-------even a smaller one. I don't need to get a trophy buck, anymore than I have to get a stringer of six ten pound walleyes. I'm happy catching walleyes, just like I am getting a deer. You're trying for force your interpetation of a quality hunt on everyone else. Your references to "macho hunts", "Only us true hunters", etc. tell what you're really about. If being able to eat the deer is not important to you, then just "killing" is, and that's sad.

[Trailerguy]

[font color=green size=3][b]I guess Q.D.M. is fine if you like horn soup. Genetics of a particular animal stays the same all through it's life span. Every old mossy horn was a button buck at one time. I have a large mount, taken after a dozen years of hunting. I've killed does, button bucks, and "trophy" bucks, but the bottum line for me is "Quality" venision. You can't beat those little forkhorn up to a small 8 point bucks, they are as close to veal as deer can be. :9
When you shoot a doe you roll the dice, they can be poor eating as easy as not.

[reelman1]

To me quality deer hunting means enjoying my time outdoors and with my family and hunting group. Would I like to shoot a monster? Of course I would, would it make any difference in my life if I shot a monster? NO!

Quality this year included my 15 year old nephew shooting his first deer, a spike, and my 80 year old dad shooting what will probably be his last deer, another spike. Quality is also my kids excited when they heard I shot a deer and we would have more canned venison. They prefer venison to beef.

If you want to implement QDM on YOUR LAND go right ahead, but don't tell me what is ethical or not.

Another problem I have with QDM is that if you have big bucks running all over the place you now have to start paying to get on land.

[Pro..QDM]

In response to your reply.There is nothing wrong with taking a deer for table fare.However there are plenty of doe areas for that type of hunting.I do enjoy eating venison,however I dont get a great thrill from the taking of a buck in which its antlers barely had a chance to break the skin.Seeing spike horns doing the majority of the breeding is diminishing the overall age and size structure of our deer herd.You cant sit there and tell me you have not hoped to get a shot at that buck of a life time.Me a deer killer?? If I ever seen anything bigger then a fork,maybe.??

[Gary Korsgaden]

Based on what I read here, I guess in order to get the antlerless
deer population in check is DNR rules and regulations. Read the rational for harvest of antlerless deer again. By encouaging more to harvest antlerless deer I hope we don't come to more regulations or the freedom of choice taken away from sportsman. I am not implying that all are looking for is big bucks, but when you have a deer population out of balance meaning buck to doe ratio's the hunter plays a role. Just my thoughts and thanks for yours.

[Birddog]

To me deer hunting isn't about how big of a deer I shoot, it's about geting together with family and friends at deer camp. If I get a big one, great, if I shoot a button buck, great. The smaller, younger deer taste better anyway. I don't drive 4 hours and spend all that money on gear, food, shells, ect., ect. not to shoot a deer, if it steps out and I have a legal tag I will shoot it!
I geuss I'm not a "REAL" hunter.

I LOVE ANIMALS, THEY'RE DELICIOUS

BIRDDOG

[Gary Korsgaden]

Please reread the posts. Minnesota hunters true, all they want is a deer, to them that is quality. Fine if that is their choice what I am proposing is a means to protect the tradition of deer hunting as we know it. I hope it doesn't come to regulations forcing sportsman to harvest a certain sex. If more hunters understand the benefits of practicing QDM, doing it voluntarily might be a option they choose.

[Real hunter]

From my talking to many hunters, I find their sentiments the same as mine------and others writing here. A quality hunt does not necessarily mean getting a troph deer. It would be nice, but not necessary. Gary, as far as regulations restricting which sex deer you can take, that's the way it was at one time. Years ago, it use to be "bucks only". I think the DNR has done a very good job. In the last several years we've had record deer harvests. Besides "bucks only", I can remember shorter seasons (9 days), many fewer deer taken, and a year when the season was closed due to a reduced deer population.

[orchard frank]

One of the things that QDM advocates share is that you either agree with them or you are WRONG. No room for different opinions. I find the idea of someone else defining "Quality" for me to be overbearing. The QDM experiments in Mi have not worked yet, no science to prove they will in the future. I may voluntarily pass up small bucks but do not feel it is within my rights to tell others to believe like I do. I have never heard a QDM group advocate 1 buck per year regs which would be a simpler, more effective move. Is it because someone wants a trophy with bow, and a couple more with rifle and muzzleloader? If it passes I will go along with the changes, but I think it is unfair that the overwhelming majority of the money to study this is being paid for by all hunters not just advocates.

[reelman1]

In response to your reply.There is nothing wrong with taking a deer for table fare.However there are plenty of doe areas for that type of hunting.I do enjoy eating venison,however I dont get a great thrill from the taking of a buck in which its antlers barely had a chance to break the skin.Seeing spike horns doing the majority of the breeding is diminishing the overall age and size structure of our deer herd.You cant sit there and tell me you have not hoped to get a shot at that buck of a life time.Me a deer killer?? If I ever seen anything bigger then a fork,maybe.??
You don't get a great thrill out of shooting a buck that's antlers are barely breaking the skin? Good for you! That's your feelings. What if the next guy doesn't get a thrill until the deer reaches 200"? Then you shouldn't shoot a 180"? He shouldn't tell you what to shoot and you shouldn't tell me what to shoot.

I'm no genetacist but I believe that a buck has all it's genes at birth so wether it breeds a doe as a spike or a 150" 10 point the same genes go into the doe.

[Gary Korsgaden]

I guess if you would prefer to have the Game and Fish Depts tell you what sex deer to shoot then your on the right track. Unless a bad winter takes care of it for us. Frankly, I don't care to shoot another big buck, actually I am happy a acquaintance of mine shot one this year that scored 178'.If you don't want to be proactive it is fine,but your upset when someone tries to impose their views on you like us QDM folks. I hope you feel the same if a government agency does it instead. About QDM not working in Mich: Well give it a chance, stop shooting small bucks, harvest antlerless instead and see in three to five years if you like the results. Hunters are a important part of deer management, I can't believe with all the information out from the DNR that it isn't clear the importantance of shooting a greater percentage of antlerless is so important. Actually,
I hunt antlerless in North Dakota, Minnesota and South Dakota. If you truly want more information I will be happy to give you Game and Fish Resource people from these States and their take on antlerless or antlered deer harvest and I will throw in few landowners to boot.

[sib]

Personally, I don't think it will pass. I hunted the UP for the 1st week of the season and people were really whining about not seeing deer. In my 25 years of hunting the UP, I've never seen so few deer. Once QDM starts to balance out the herd, the population is going to dip even lower, and sighting will dip lower. I don't think Yooper's will tolerate the dip and from what I've seen this year, QDM isn't going to happen. Timing is everything and a few years ago, this type of measure would stand a chance, but not when guys are going days without seeing deer, and I hunt Menominee Co!

Any chance of QDM happening in the UP evaporated with this season, imo.

For what it's worth, we have a six or better rule in our camp and we've got committments from the surrounding camps for the six or better rule and have had that rule for about five years. Guess what? By day three the surrounding camps were shooting spikes and forks (the few they did see) Those great yooper hunters weren't really into QDM when it meant they didn't have something to hang from the buck pole, QDM was the 1st casualty of the 2004 deer season.



>It is in my view that there is only one answer to quality
>deer managment in the Upper Pen,MI...Yes,Yes,YES..If you have
>any doubt in this you are not a deer hunter but a deer
>killer.There are those who like to kill deer to eat regardless
>of size and thats fine.Shot a doe eat it and be happy you have
>done so.Or do you like the macho idea that you got a nice
>trophy spike horn.Give me a break people.There is not one
>person who has sat in the woods with thier bow ,gun,muzzle
>loader,or even thier slingshot that has not day dreamed of the
>day when old mossy horn gave them a shot,thus fullfilling
>every hunters dream,(a true trophy whitetail)The thought that
>the land cannot handle the population of deer if QDM is
>implimented in the U.P. is rediculas.Richard P. Smith,outdoor
>writter says QDM will not work in the U.P.He states to many
>deer will die in the winter months.Then in the next breath he
>says,in the U.P., Mother nature will take care of her own, (as
>far as population) concerning the michigan deer herd.He as
>well as the popular radio program,The Outspoken
>Sportsman,state that the only folks that will benefit from the
>new regulations are property owners..Im not a property owner
>by the way..This is a big bunch of bullsh--.There are alot of
>places to hunt and plenty of areas for bucks to grow old if
>they are allowed to.Lets face it the regulations that are in
>place now are not working.This is a five year plan.The only
>folks that appose this new plan are deer killers not
>hunters..Or maybe they are afriad of change,or they are less
>educated then they think they are.If you dont think QDM will
>work for a more balanced deer herd,as well as a better overall
>hunting experience.You might want to read the laws governing
>deer hunting in Illinois,or maybe Buffalo county Wis.Lets face
>it,nine out of ten hunt for the trophy,not the meat.If you
>need the meat get a doe tag.Only us true hunters can make this
>work.As for the rest of you,sit back and watch, if QDM fails
>you can say I told you so.However, when your out thier and you
>start seeing them northern giants,that the U.P. is capable of,
>you will be glad You didnt listen to the Outspoken sportsmen
>radio program ,or the narrow minded dribblings of Richard P.
>Smith,whoever that is. Sincerly written to all Outdoorsmen.

[Gary Korsgaden]

I would agree with your situation, I shouldn't call it QDM instead harvesting antlerless deer. We have a situation in Minnesota where it is so important right now to do this, not to get bigger bucks necessarily, but bring the herd in check or balance. In light of up to 5 additional antlerless tags we still got close to 60% number of bucks harvested to antlerless. Preliminary survey's say. I want to stand corrected hope I am better understood

[stump jumper]

think long and hard regarding QDM. just look at the mess we have in PA. with heard reduction and antler restrictions (4 on a side). we have alot less deer, lots of older 6 points and less doing more than their fair share of breeding. have your buck season, then a doe season. the number of trophy racks will not increase take my word on it, it didn't in PA after 4 years. monday was our opening day and we had less shooting than ever and our harvest is mostly doe deer. don't get caught up in antler envy. just hunt and enjoy!! stump jumper

[forkhorn]

Try to relate shooting the little guys , 1 1/2 year olds and younger to keeping all the little fish you catch.Not talking the eaters here talking "sub" eaters ( 8 inchers etc or whatever may be considered too small to keep for your area) that I here people complaining about others keeping. While this is the opposite of the catch and release theory, there are parallels. In releasing the larger fish we are attempting to create even larger fish in the future.By letting the young deer grow up a bit we have the opportunity to see more mature bucks.Even given an extra year, a bucks chances of reaching maturity increase substantially as he becomes smarter in both the ways of man and other predators as well.In most of the upper midwest we have near record deer populations.Shooting a deer in most cases should not be that difficult that a hunter has to shoot the first sub adult buck to wander by or risk not getting their yearly freezer full of venison.It took years ,decades really , to get people over the "keep all the big fish you can catch" syndrome but it did happen and fishing now is probably better now in many places then it ever has been.Sooner or later QDM will catch on and we'll start seeing positive results ,more mature bucks , better buck to doe ratios and a more manageable deer herds overall.QDM is really nothing more then selective harvest.Fill your freezers with young tender does and your walls with big mature whitetails!!

[Turgan]

V.Hansen, comparing fishing and hunting as you do is again, comparing "apples and oranges". It is a poor and unreliable comparison.

[forkhorn]

Granted not exact comparables.However ,aren't the end goals the same for both , to a degree anyway . A popultation of older ,larger specimens of both species?

[forkhorn]

http://www.westervelt.com/articles.html

Check this site out for some intereting qdm info.

[Trailerguy]

[font color=green size=3][b]No, the end goals in both cases depend on personal choices, that are with-in the law. But as long as you pass up the forkhorns it's OK with me,:9 :9 :9 . I'll just pass up the old mossyhorns instead.... That's why Q.D.M. will never fly!
The Goal of the real deer managers, (the ones that work for the DNR), Is to have a YOUNG and healthy herd.

[GR8WTHUNTER]

Stump jumper, I think there other things that caused the quiet first day in PA. We have had 2 hard winters and the feed in the woods was light this past winter. I spent time in the woods in march. There was still 4 feet of crested smow on the ridges. The winter kill was heavy. After the snow finally melted, we found as many as 60 winter kills on a single ridge. I know I am not in the same part of the state as you because we have the 3 points on a side regulation, but the heavy snows hit most of the state. Plain and simple, the heard is down and you should expect lower sightings and yes a tougher hunt. The next thing that came into play was the full moon and clear skies the night before the opener. At 4:00 AM when we left the truck to hike in, we had a shadow from the moon. Bright full moons have an effect on deer movements. Studies and my own experiences show the better deer movements are right at day break and dusk and again a very strong mid day movement. Unfortunatly, most hunters gather for group lunch and missed the deer movements. I was able to hunt the first 2 days. I had 20 deer pass my stand. All but one deer sighting was between 10:30 AM and 1:30 PM. Granted, this is not as many deer as I am used to seeing, but the lower sightings were expected. Now 3 deer, I was unable to tell what they were, just too far into the thicket. There were 2 button bucks (fawns) and 3 doe fawns, 6 bucks, and the rest were adult does. Only one of the bucks I saw was leagle, OK he was huge, but I never got a clean shot. There was anohter heavy beamed buck with about a 16 inch spread that stayed around me for 3 hours. Just a 4 point. This deer had enough beam to be a decent 8. Two of the other 4 points sported enough antler that they looked as if they should have been 6's or better. They weren't and I have not shot yet. My theory is that due to the hard winter the deer/bucks were stressed this spring and did not grow as quality of antlers as they may have otherwise. I still have another week with the gun to fil my tags. If I get the opportunity, I will take a buck. My doe tags will go unfilled this year as will most that hunt this same area. We all feel the winter kill has the population down well below the carrying capacity and are going to do our part to let it build again. I may finish the year without meat in the freezer for the first time since the late 70's, but I will not say that I didn't have a good season. I went out into the deer's home and have out witted many of them. I had the pleasure of taking my nephew, helping him scout and select his spot. As I see it, the hunt is the fun part. The kill or harvest is necessary to manage the heard. The blame for the lower deer densities is not the PAGC or the management plan. It is the hard winter. I spoke with one of the guys running the largest processing shop in our area. The results are that the kill on Monday was down, but as of today, they are just slightly below last years numbers for both bucks and does. He also added that the number of large bucks is way up. Now lets get back to hunting.

[V. Hansen]

Well,it looks like QDM is one large can of worms.I have read all the responses.I havetook into consideration both parties for and against.It is true no one likes thier hunting beliefs questioned..That was not my intention,as this is not the intention of QDM,not at all.One thing I wish all hunters both for as well as against would understand,Q.D.M. its number one goal is not so we as hunters have big bucks to shot.This is just a by product of a properly managed deer herd.The number one goal,the overall achievment,the success is...A more balanced buck to doe ratio,a better age structer,more mature deer breading.Older,healthier deer going into the winter months. The end result,we as hunters,photographers,outdoor enthusiasts get to enjoy seeing bucks more often..Do you hotel,motel,guides,and outfitters as well as bar owners and store owners realize how you could prosper if the U.P. was known as well as Illinois,Kansas,Iowa,or even Buffalo county Wisconsin?????Well Im sure that thought will get a response...Well for all you pro QDM folks,from what I see and hear,it will never be in the U.P. Just to many Yoppers afraid of change.Its to bad that most folks think QDM is all about some dude shooting a big buck.Things that make you say mmmmmm.So long,I hope all the anti QDM hunters have an idea of what to do when the wolf and the winter and the over harvest depletes the herd to nothing.I know what Im gonna do,buy a nonresident license where they managed the herd correctly.Or maybe we will all be forced to hunt the boundries of some private 350 acers that some landowner managed his deer herd on, in hopes that one might step across the line.

[V.Hansen]

Forkhorn you hit the nail on the head.I have herd over and over how QDM will create a major problem during the winter by putting to much stress on the wintering range.If I my Quote Richard.P. Smith,for instance.He says last year 60,thousand deer died during our severe winter,what he didnt say was that for most of the deer {that died} it was the first winter they faced.The deer are not old enough, strong enough, or wise enough,nor is thier body size big enough to have success in the winter.{Forkhorn},I have herd this said at least 100 times...The wolves are eating all the deer,sure they get there share..However if the deer was older, bigger, and smarter.The wolf would have a tuffer time catching him to,wouldnt you think??? da,. If the wolf is eating all the deer,pass QDM it will give the wolf more to eat,da.If the deer were bigger the wolf would eat less often.DA.I have not heard on hunter this year say he liked how the hunting regulations are now,nor have I heard not one person say he was happy with the size shape or quantity of the deer he or she had seen while hunting.Proof what is happening now with deer managment in the U.P. isnt working,however most didnt want to see QDM come into play ither.DA!!!

[V.Hansen]

Well it is very true in the U.P."S southern counties,such as Delta,Mennomine,Dickinson ect, the doe to buck ratio is out of hand.As high as 20 and 30 to 1.However in Baraga,Marquette,Alger and Houghton counties there are few deer as a whole.The last thing we need there is the type of managment you are talking.I have said this many times over,and I do agree to what you are saying about shooting does to manage the herd.In the Upper Peninsula, to do the right thing we should have quota drawings for different counties.Even go as far as not issuing buck tags until you kill a doe first,thus the DNR are sure that everyone is doing thier part.One thing for sure is this,the DNR should either protect all spike horns,or issue one buck tag to each hunter through out the calander year.You fill it with the deer of your choice,with the weapon of your choice....FOR RIGHT NOW THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO FOR OUR HERD IS PASS QDM>if we dont take a step in the right direction now it could be years before we see another atempt at bettering the resources we now have.

[V.Hansen]

The bottom line for Q.D.M in the U.P. of Michigan is this.Regardless if you are for it or against it,we all know the regulations that are now used to manage our deer herd are simply not working.It needs change.If we all dont work together and stay open minded enough to impliment a change when a change is offered,we have no one to blame when things continue to worsen.This is a five year plan,are you people afraid you dont have enough hunting savy,{if I may] to harvest a buck with 3 points on each side.????Or is it a must that you fill your buck tag, even if it is only with a 3 inch antlered spike.Keep in mind folks QDM isnt all about hunting and shooting bigger bucks.That seems to be the focus.Its about balance in the herd.Age structureand size.Healthy Deer.