Controversial ?

[Klaas Act - Rich Ziert]

Something cam down recently where the conversation centered on "Why Lakes Turn Off". My part in the fray went like this:

The future is bright.. . . as in vivid! I'm about to get up on this here soap box and broad stroke my comment with a lot of sloppy thick red paint on the brush. LOL

Why does a lake turn off? Historically, heavily fished newly opened impoundments have a 2-5 year run at above average fishing. The aforementioned should be at the head of the list of beginning evidence trail. Catch and Release? Overharvest? Catch and release, coupled with tournament and increased pressure from weekend fishermen? Nobody that I know (most poignantly the bass fishing industry and die-hards) wants to believe this, or wants anybody else to believe it , and will go out of their way to find threads to make what they do, appear favorable to themselves and others. Do we need to rudely awaken ourselves?

Other than that, what changed to make the lake no longer as productive as it once was? Is it the environment, the ecosystem, the political venue? Or does it keep coming back to fish evolution based on fishing pressure, and poor self control with its ramifications on and off the water? My guess is it’s a little of all these things. . . probably more. The only way to improve the situation is to increase awareness and build integrity within ourselves. On another broad stroke, this takes time. Nothing is without hope. Is the situation irreparable? Sit back and do nothing? Sit back and let somebody else do it? If we fail to try the good in us, we will bleed out much, much faster. While band aids may be necessary short term, they just won’t be enough when dealing with arterial damage.

I'd like to here from all of you as respects things that cause the problem, and then again things that can be done to put a major fix on the situation. Here's one of mine:

This is not a attempt to threaten freedoms in the short term, but to guarantee them in the long of it. There are several states that require a hunter safety course be taken and passed before the license is issued. Along with boater safety courses, what if states required a fishing ecology course be completed/passed before that license is issued? Then, what if any group, club or otherwise, wanting to hold a tournament on a lake would have to collectively put in so and so number of hours volunteering with the DNR on lake/river/etc. ecosystem issues? Knowledge is controversial. It makes us grow beyond our limitations, but no growth ever comes with some pain. That pain of today always becomes a blessing tomorrow.

Any feedback is appreciated.

[Klaas Act - Rich Ziert]

Forgive me.

[Jimmy Jig]

That idea should cut the fishing liences in half. That would help out the fish population in a hurry!

[stinkycat]

Interesting thoughts. I do believe the problems are environmental, over harvest and tournament fishing respectively. I do not have any evidence to support any of the above except my poor memory from the many articles I have read in the past.

I do agree with Jimmy Jig that a mandatory class on fishing ecology would greatly diminish our next generation of fishing people. People that go fishing once or twice a year would chose not to go at all leading to diminished license revenue and lost generations of young people being introduced to the sport.

What about approaching the idea of education through our k-12 system. We teach biology... why not teach fishing ecology? In believe in Minnesota it might be tough to change class curriculum but maybe in the land of 10,000 lakes it might go over well. I do believe students as well as parents would welcome a class that teaches the ins and outs of our precious resources... IMHO.

[Unregistered]

I'm going to write to my state board of educators and ask them to read this thread.

[Mr.Seaguar]

Stinkcat I been saying that for yrs also. We make people take hunters ed so how much longer would it take for anglers ed? Theres a lot of factors that make lakes turn off/on and I dont think that anglers ed would cure the problem, but any reason we use to mandate angles ed is a good one.

[Backwater Eddy]

I find this an interesting concept?

Elective courses on ecology as it relates to sporting endeavors may be a worthy program for schools to embrace. Be it in the regular curriculum or as summer studies day camps or retreats, I could see it being popular with kids both rural and urban.

Funding is the fly in the ointment as I see it. Due to tight budgets and cuts in education, and teachers salaries, it may be something that a wider collision of industry cooperate interests would need to sponsor or foster to gain momentum.

Our next generations of sportsman and sportswomen will have new challenges to face and any tools they get now would surely help to make better informed choices down the line.

[Chad]

Something cam down recently where the conversation centered on "Why Lakes Turn Off". My part in the fray went like this:

This is not a attempt to threaten freedoms in the short term, but to guarantee them in the long of it. There are several states that require a hunter safety course be taken and passed before the license is issued. Along with boater safety courses, what if states required a fishing ecology course be completed/passed before that license is issued? Then, what if any group, club or otherwise, wanting to hold a tournament on a lake would have to collectively put in so and so number of hours volunteering with the DNR on lake/river/etc. ecosystem issues? Knowledge is controversial. It makes us grow beyond our limitations, but no growth ever comes with some pain. That pain of today always becomes a blessing tomorrow.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Comparing a hunting license and a fishing license is like comparing a bicycle to a car and saying that you should be licensed to drive a bike beause we require it for automobiles.

We are loosing anglers every year. We are spending all kinds of money to promote the sport of fishing. Proposing regulations that would make it MORE difficult to get a fishing license is the total opposite thing we should be doing.

The lakes I fish all have their up's and downs and most were man made problem. Bad regulations or failure to regulate or other agencies not caring how they effect the system.

Lake Sakakawea.....Not enough water killed the smelt and is starving the fish.
Lake Oahe....Too many little guys and not enough bait fish.
Devils Lake....No probles there except too many big fish being kept.
Upper Red....Loooking good due to regulations. we'll see what happens once they open the fish processing center.

[Nimstug]

One thing I have not seen mentioned is a sucessful or unsucessful spawn. You have the influence of water levels both high and low, water temps rising or falling right at the hatch and predation affect a year class.

Not being an expert, I suppose the success or failure in one year's hatch would not make a difference, but say two, three, or more in a row will influence the number of a particular species in a body of water in the future.

As for formal education, whatever you propose you'd better back it up with dollars. Politicians love to come up with mandates for public education requirments but no money to fund the program.

Hunting classes, as I understand it (not being a hunter) are geared toward safety, not lessons on how to hunt.

Nimstug

Why did you tell her I was an icthyologist? You know I always wanted to be an architect!
-G. Costanza

[bob oh]

I think if the fluxuations are due to harvest levels you need to send the DNR to school, not the fishermen. The DNR manages the resource, not the fisherman If it is overharvest then limits are too high or DNR is not enforcing or doesn't have the funds to enforce. Putting more burdens on next fishing prospects is a good way kill our sport.

[Texeye]

Rich,

I think in the grand scheme of things nature pretty well takes care of itself. Our best intentions are often wrong. Many lakes, if left to themselves would still be cyclical in nature. Like some have said here, and I also believe, is that lake levels,temps,winter killls,summer heat,floods,droughts and on and on have a major influence on a lakes viability. We often judge a lake as being great when we are catching large numbers of big fish when in reality it may be peaking and headed for a few unproductive years.

All that being said, we do have an influence as far as some things go. Pollution and over-harvesting are two things pretty high on the list. On both these issues we do have mandates set by those supposedly in the know, but I don't think there should be any kind of mandate on getting a fishing license.

I think our greatest problem lies in personal resposibility. I am not much on over regulation,but one thing I would like to see implemented, is this one thing. I think evey time you leave a lake,any lake, you should have to write down the number of fish taken, and what species. This would take very little time and be a very useful tool for setting limits and slots. I don't think the DNR has any idea how many fish leave a body of water in a given year. They come around once or twice and do a creel survey...like that really gives the big picture. In today's climate of technology and information the fishing scene has changed dramatically in the past ten years. Fishing is no longer a spring urge and a few month long passion. It now lasts all year long and fishermen no longer hope for a bite or two they hope for a limit or two.

Man, what got into me tonight?

Have a good one .
Texeye

[Klaas Act - Rich Ziert]

All of your replies have been no less than great. Thank you for your honest opinions. I just received a reply from the Terminator Governor out here in California, saying he will look into the education bit. The message was probably canned and it came from someone who had the authority to sign his name. But, it’s a start. Water is the most valuable resource on the planet. In all the things we do fishing, if we can build in integrity through awareness, we can't lose. . . and think of the legacy we’d leave behind.

Take care, my friends.

Rich

[Burr]

Sometimes we think we don't know much as fisherman, in how to catch fish. I think we know even less about the science of fisheries, and we will continue to learn.

The first 3-5 years, I believe, are above average years for fishing because they have so much food in the system for fish to eat. When looking at successful stocking years, and unsuccessful stocking years, the one thing that correlates to the success of stocking is the abundance of baitfish.

I'm wondering if efforts to manage baitfish will become more of a factor as it relates to stocking.

Maybe to have better stocking success, it's the baitfish that has to be managed? We just don't know that much about fisheries management, in comparison to what we will know.

:peepwall:

[fishingfarmer]

A fishing license only value is to make the people using the resource put money back into the resource. To put limits on who can get one only hurts that resource. In this case fishing.

I sometimes wonder is fishing really getting worse in some of these places or because of TV showa that only talk about catching the big one or trophy fishing are peoples expectations far greater than they should be. When is the last time a fishing show just went fishing to catch fish. Instead they they spend a week or 2 on a lake to show how we all should be catching trophies every 3rd cast.

There is more to fishing than catching big fish for the wall. Fishing is about enjoying a day at the lake or river and bringing fish home to eat without feeling guilty about it.

That might be the most I've typed since I got of School'

Thanks
JWI

[Justfishing]

I dont think you can manage the flucations of a lake. A newly opened lake has a lot of organic matter being turned into fish food. It will be at its peak in the first few years. But the carrying capacity will soon decline. The lake may stabilze at a healthy level or it may continue to drop over the years if the lake isnt properly managed for fishing. Then the fishing declined due to the food chain carrying capacity. This type of decline of fishing success is because the food chain has declined or collapsed. Things like brush piles and habitat improvement can revitalize the lake.

The other aspect is over harvest or the fish adapting to fishing pressure. Over harvest becomes a management issue. A course is not likely to help the over fishing because there is segment that are going to harvest the max allowed regardless and then there are those that will take more than the limit. There is not enough enforcement to stop this. I so rarely get asked for a license that I am sure most would not worry about getting caught. On lakes close to urban areas I see non English speaking fishermen taking either nonlegal fish or over-limits. I have tried to inform people of length limits but have not been able to communicate. On these occassions I have wondered if they even have a license/

As far as the fish adapting to high fishing pressure then we have to adapt to. Some times they move deeper or stop biting on common lures. Doing something new or fishing in different areas or at different times may be what needed.

I would say what needs to be done is better enforcement of regulations and better management of the lakes. A newly opened resevoir may need to have brush piles added as the intitial nutrient base declines. Natural lakes may also need some supplement to help higher fishing pressure.

Fishing clubs can help the dnr in sinking brush piles. They can also keep the dnr informed of abuses of fishing regulations so enforcement can be stepped up.

[no1son]

Back home one of the PE classes at the local public school is a fishing outing to a local lake. As I understand it, it is pretty much panfish catch and release, but that is an exposure to a different type of sports activity from the increasingly specialized, competitive sports classes.

[Bassbuster UL]

Lakes turn off because there is not enough fish in there due to overharvesting, lack of stocking, or conditions that are not good for fish reproduction. Overharvesting should not be an issue if the DNR enforced bag limits and adjusted bag limits on a yearly basis per lake. It is a joke to have a high bag limit in a year where there are so few fish that you can barely catch any.

Also lakes will turn off because there are so many baitfish in the lake that the fish are stuffed to the gills and they really don't have to hunt.

[Bassbuster UL]

I also think that catch and release in the summer can be a bad thing. Many of the bigger fish that are caught in 80 degree temperatures just are not going to make it. Suppose that the bag limit is 3, you cull fish, catch 20, and keep 3. If the mortality rate for your lake is 80% during the summer there are 16 fewer fish swimming around in the lake. I do not have a problem with catch and release during the non-summer months as the mortality rates are rather low. The DNR could disallow culling during the summer months when the mortality rates are high and save a bunch of fish. There is a reason that the DNR is there, they should step up and manage the resource.

[bass eater]

A new lake is good WALLEYE fishing for the first 3 to 5 years because of competition and a predator/prey balance. It drops off because WALLEYES are taken out and prey become overabundant. On the flip side, BASS are released so they remain popular, numerous, and easy to catch.