View Full Version : Sonars and the Industry
Jesse-WI
03-01-2002, 09:59 AM
All this sonar talk of late made me curious enough to find out more. There are a lot of sonar companies out there, all more than willing to tell you why to choose them.
My head is spinning from reading sonar(fishfinding) info on the web. The options and differences are as endless as buying a truck or car. Do you need a small 2 door V4 pickup or a open pit mining truck whose tires are larger than the small pickup? Do you need a Yugo or a Ferrari? Do you need an Accord or a BMW528? There is a big different between the cheapest and most expensive fishfinder out there but in general they all do the same thing; find fish, some more than others.
I even seen an article on how some engineers had taken a color sonar unit and programmed it to help them find oyster shells instead of mud, gravel, rock or sand.
As consumers we spend a lot of money on these things each year, yet we never seem to care that we have to take each companies' word that their unit does what they claim. We have tests and standards for all kinds of things. I once went to an elite PWT pro's seminar on a particular high level LCD unit. He did not completely trust the units ability to determine what he should see. His sensitivity was turned up so high that the screen was littered with clutter but he had examples to show you fish that you might miss if you let the unit decide. You would need a lot practice to do it his way.
I won an underwater camera last year and my view on my sonar has changed a 1000 fold. I have a 320 vertical pixel unit up front and 240 vertical pixel unit by the driver seat; I have been driving by a lot of fish regardless of the settings options you could choose.
So would it not be nice if some company would take the lead and create some industry standard tests to certify the capabilities of their units. As we have seen, other companies would be forced to follow or be left by the road side. Then as consumers we could truly decide what price we would be willing to pay for the various features and capabilities that each unit has.
RANGER
03-01-2002, 10:23 AM
I agree with you 140%!! I want to be able to comparison shop without having to access multiple resources (catalogs, web sites, picking Reps' brains at shows, etc.)!! I consider myself slightly above a stump, in intelligence, and I can - AND WILL - make up my own mine as to how I spend my money and for which product!! It galls me as to how difficult it is to ferret this info out for products and ESPECIALLY when it comes to SONARS/fish finders. This is one of the reasons I absolutely LOVE this Board!!!!!
I don't know if you saw my post about a month or so ago but...........I was doing comparitive shopping for several SONARS, one of which is the Lowrance 15 MT. It truly frosted me that if I was planning to buy the top of the line unit, with GPS, at a cost of $1100 I WOULD HAVE TO SHELL OUT ANOTHER $49 FOR THE SPEED AND TEMP module!! That is crap! For that kind of money I'm not about to reach any deeper! One good intentioned reader said that I could use the GPS! Yeah, I could but I personally don't trust them under 4 mph, I just don't. So, all of my other SONARS had it and I liked the way it works and I want this one to be the same - NOT!! So, now, Lowrance went to the bottom of that list and is about to fall off it all together. It boils down to WHAT I WANT - NOT - what YOU want to sell me! That's the BottomLine (pun intended ;-) )!
Standards could be a nice thing to have published for us consumers. But all the standards in the world are not going to help you interpret what your seeing on the screen. Is it a fish or submerged debris? It takes a lot of time and experience with a sonar to figure that one out. More important is understanding the characteristics of the fish your seeking. Combine the two and your on your way to interpreting the specs' blobs, lines and arc's on the screen. That's one of the many differences between a pro and a guy who's hobby is fishing like me.
So I do what I do when you question, is it a fish or submerged debris? Drop your line down there and see.
edwardMI
03-01-2002, 06:14 PM
this is very true but i think we need a place to start. specs would be a beginning at least.
Goldpig
03-01-2002, 07:34 PM
Certainly an interesting post. If only we could get everyone on WC to pitch in, say 20 bucks, and then hire an independant testing firm, and publish the results.
My former company and I actually hired a test firm to compare a competitors product to one we were designing. I was amazed at the disparity between the tested results and this companies product specs. It certainly proved to me that you can't always treat company literature as gospel.
GENETRON
03-01-2002, 10:01 PM
AN EXCELLENT IDEA THAT WE HAVE BEEN SUGGESTING AND PUSHING FOR YEARS. MANY PRODUCTS HAVE RATINGS(TIRES, KITCHEN APPLIANCES,ETC) A SPORTANGLER DESERVES TO HAVE A RATINGS SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR ALL KINDS OF MARINE ELECTRONICS(FISHFINDERS,RADARS,PLOTTERS,VHF RADIOS, ETC)SO THAT HE OR SHE CAN MAKE A MORE INFORMED CHOICE BASED ON FACTS FROM INDEPENDENT TESTING OF PRODUCTS . THEN THE NEXT OBVIOUS DECISION IS WHAT THEY CAN AFFORD. AN EXCELLENT IDEA THAT IS LONG OVERDUE!!!! DICK KNUTSON GENETRON
Ranger and others can you suggest what is the current best sonar made for the type of water I am fishing. This is driving me nuts. I fish western Lake Erie from 10-35 feet usually.
Jesse-Wi
03-01-2002, 11:44 PM
As it stands right now, the only way to verify my units capabilities and how various things display is to use the underwater camera. As walleye fisherman we always talk about structure. One of my units can see 1 - 2 inch grass, the other can not. One of my units displays many small fish at the same depth as one larger fish, the other shows a few small to medium sized fish. These are just a few examples. We all know what the perfect picture of nice arcs look like. How often do you really see those? If I only fish in 20ft of water how much power do I need? How much power is to much or wasted? Does the unit display bait fish and suspended weeds differently? Can I see a walleye right on the bottom regardless of bottom make up?
We now have software that lets me pretend like I own the unit and can play with the settings. Why not take the next step and attach real screen displays with real underwater video footage? Let me see how the settings affect the screen picture while viewing the underwater footage. I will then truely know how to use my unit and you will have proven what your unit can do? If we do not dream, companies will continue to do business as is.
stevefellegy
03-02-2002, 09:23 AM
Jess,
Although I don't live there or fish there much, I have done an extensive amount of hunting walleyes in the western basin revolving around PWT events, for about 10-11 years. Like any open water fishery, there are no fences out there, so covering water quickly, and effectively, when hunting walleyes, can be key. I use a Genetron video because of scenarios like you deal with everyday. I can look at high speed, with a 72 degree cone angle, that not only gives me a big picture generally, but is able to see those bad boys when they are only 7'-8' under the surface. The ability to do this at 10-35 miles per hour is huge, to say the least, in open water fisheries such as the western basin. Please feel free to ask any questions in this regard, anytime. I'll be out there in late March.
I, too, would welcome a detailed study showing the various characteristics of the sonar technology available per manufacturer. I've tried to get answers for years from many, but end up having to test them all on my own to draw a good conclusion. Good luck!
Big Al
03-02-2002, 11:54 AM
There was a magazine published about ten years ago that was the "Consumer Reports" for the boating world. I can't remember the name of it now, but they reviewed all types of boating gear and reported the pros and cons of each. It was supported only by subscriptions - no advertising at all was allowed. Unfortunately, they weren't able to survive - not enough subscribers.
-Big Al
One problem that I have is the user manuals are written for the guy that has to look up how to fasten the seatbelt in his car every time he goes for a drive. When I call Pinpoint wanting to know how do something that isn't in the manual, they will tell me, but it is by following sequences that are not written down. How about an advanced manual if you request one?
That magazine is still being published to this day, in fact its subscriber list has got much longer and the publication itself has improved greatly. Its called Power Boat Reports. They have a website from which you can subscribe of course. Its expensive, because there is absolutly no advertising, but there is a special price for the first year's subscription that is not at all bad.
Thom
Was looking at some units, Eagle, Lowrance and Garmin. A gentleman explained to me that with a 60 degree cone angle the cone diameter will be 1/3 of your depth(18 ft depth, 6ft dia cone on the bottom). I thought that was a nice piece of info. Then I started thinking, "Why do finders only display a side view of what's below? If you think about it the signal goes straight down and up. For sake of arguement we'll say you're in 30' water so the cone base is 10' diameter. So imagine a 10 foot circle. In the middle of the circle is your transducer, now from that transducer position correlate the position of your hull. If your Trans is on the right side of your transom, your boat hull would cover from the 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock position. It would be nice to see a circle(looking from above) and seeing where the fish are located in relation to your boat. The only problem I see with this would be the clutter or trying to distinguish the fish from the bottom. Maybe a combo of the top and side view? If you have a 6" screen the only important reading is the right hand side! Because as your unit gets new signals, it scrolls them to the left, the furthest left is the oldest reading! Your newest reading is the moment something shows coming in from the side. I figure with a "top view" finder one would actually have a better awareness of what's going down below, maybe even witnessing fish coming and going! If you really think about it, I don't think great great great strides have been made in fish finder technology, only the packaging/marketing to sucker us into buying a new one.
Cheers!
Steve,
Thank you very much. I have been interesten in one of these units but was turned off by the service. No web site and If I want to see a video they need a deposit. I was also told they break easily. I am worried I might have problems and spent my time fighting with the company. Are there any units of comparable performance?
Thank you for the info,
Jess
stevefellegy
03-02-2002, 07:16 PM
Hey Jess,
I truly don't know of any units that compare to my Genetron, for the application we use depthfinders in. But I have not hunted too much in that direction lately, since I have no reason to change. If these units are mounted right, they are very dependable. But yes, they are more fragile than the lcr technology. But I wouldn't let that scare me. I wish I had dollar for every wave that shook the graph. I never had one fail due to a pounding in the waves.
As far as I know, that security deposit thing that urks you isn't charged to your card unless you don't return it or purchase a unit. I read here, lately, they are considering the website deal also. But I would think the video would be much more enlightening than any website. Or as I said, you surely can find me out in your country this spring, and take a look/see for yourself. Your eyes under the water are the key tool you have. If they ain't there, you can't catch'em. Once you win that battle, catchin' them is a whole lot easier. If I can answer any more questions, please feel free to ask.
Jesse-WI
03-02-2002, 09:24 PM
I seen some talk on one of the web sites that talks about a commercial unit that could show you your cone in quarter sections. The problem is the unit costs $40,000.
Lund Angler/Mark
03-02-2002, 09:53 PM
I've learned to use a paper graph,with great success,and my LCR unit does not catch the same fish it seem's. My trial's on the water show a unit-no matter what it is; is only as good as the operator.I have original Lowrance unit's, to paper graph's to LCR's.My graph,with new stylus and belt are like a very old guitar,produce beautiful music in the right hand's.Only the most expensive unit's seem to have all you need. Don't shop for one on a budget.You only short change yourself.