Is it still the best or has time caught up with it? Does Lowrance, Humminbird and Vexilar offer models as good?

A few years ago, your post would have brought an army of Genetron users out of the woodwork defending their units. Haven't heard anything about or from them for a long time.

It's been many years since Genetron units were considered the best by anyone other than Genetron owners. Remember, the Genetron is late 70's early 80's technology.

The highly integrated DSP (digital signal processing) technology used in your current cell phones verses the mostly analog, mostly discreet component technology used in the 15 lb mobile telephone of years gone by; is a perfect example of the new high end sonar units compared to the "high end" Genetron. The new cell phones simply are better, just like the new similarily priced sonar units.

Yup, you'll still find people who claim the Genetron was the best unit ever made. But if that was true, some entrerprising person/company could still sell them, lower the cost by getting rid of dozens of chips with a single gate array, upgrade the display, etc. How many of the current technology units need a factory tune up on a regular basis?

Some people still maintain the Model T was the best automobile ever built. Most new cars, in view of the value of the dollar over time, etc. are a real steal compared to the Model T.

Interesting analogy Vern. There was a reconditioned one for sale in the classifieds awhile back that caught my eye. Looks like I will look into Vexilar this time around because the other 2 do nothing for me.

Without getting into the tech side (since I know nothing about it) the Genetron is still the best unit I have ever used to show me fish...up high or down low...period.

Did I like my 111, 987, 162, 168, 320, Zercom, etc...yes, but none of them showed me the fish the Genetron did. Is the Genetron outdated and will the other units (currently running a 1197 and 787) do an adequate job, yes.

My Lowrance showed me fish better than my Humminbirds do...not that the Hbirds don't show the fish...it was just easier to discriminate on my Lowrance...and the Genetron was the best of anything i have ever used. Might be operator error as I have not used the Humminbirds very much. It took me a long time to part with my Genetron (just a couple months ago) but I knew I would never go back to a unit that didn't have all the toys. The most important reason I am using a Humminbird is the side imaging, if you get used to it...you will never go back.

Not sure why the Genetron had such an edge for showing fish anywhere they were...but I stand by my conviction that nobody has been able to duplicate the output.

Mexico, why did you part ways with your Genetron? Was it a reliability issue? What did you get for it for a purchase price? I am thinking of a dual frequency sounder myself for a tiller boat, that leaves me with Genetron or Vexilar.

NO,
Take care
REW

That has to be your shortest reply ever REW! Did you buy it from Mexico?

First--Vern? The "army" you speak of consisted of ANTI-Genetron posters. They were countless! There usually was only 2-4 of us that defended and spoke highly of Genetron--as I recall those days. So the Genetron "army", if any, was small--but smarter.

2nd--I agree with Mex. I've had Genetron in the boat for 17 years and still have yet to have anyone show me anything better--and in many cases--as good. I disagree with Vern! And as in the years he speaks of, I challenge him today, or anyone, to show me a better, more consistent fish finding technology.

Did REW say "no" to the question asked--"is Genetron still the best depth sounder"? or to the question " Does Lowrance, Humminbird and Vexilar offers models as good?" Or "no" to the rest?

Steve Fellegy
http://www.npaa.net/memdir/49.htm

First--Vern? The "army" you speak of consisted of ANTI-Genetron posters. They were countless! There usually was only 2-4 of us that defended and spoke highly of Genetron--as I recall those days. So the Genetron "army", if any, was small--but smarter.

Steve Fellegy


Steve,
If you go back to a few threads dating back as far as March 2003, you and I have discussed Genetron units before on WC. I just did a search..... look specifically at the "Technical info on Genetron units?" and "Genetron, I believe" threads in the archives.

I used the name Vern back then, use VernH now. I've registered a bunch of times, switch computers and never remember my old name so I start over again. Remembering forum passwords isn't high on my list of priorities. I'm not trying to hide my identity, I'm just lazy.

I suppose my asking for technical information put me in the"anti-Genetron" group. In reality, I was simply asking questions trying to verify the accuracy of the claims made by Genetron users and by Dick who built them.

Because of my posts, I remember discussing the technical aspects of some of the circuitry with Dave Anderson who lives less than 10 miles form my place. Dave was (still is?) a parts supplier for Genetron. He supplied some custom and very critical parts for the unit. We had a really good discussion. Per our discussions, I believe I have a very good understanding of the logic and circuitry involved and could duplicate some it with dozens fewer components. If you check back the discussions, I offered to provide a copy of my engineering degree (MS); I'm not blowing smoke, I've done this type of thing before.

I maintained back then and still do to this day, that in a side by side true, measurable and repeatable test; that the high end units that were being sold at that time were probably just as good.

Stories about how a Genetron unit showed fish while another didn't at while both were traveling 30 mph and there wasn't a diver down below to verify just don't cut it in my opinion. If you remember, I mentioned how people were "bending the laws of physics" in their descriptions of the capabilities of the Genetron and that was why I was asking for technical specifications. Ping rate at the different depths, speed of sound in water, transducer beamwidth and frequency can't provide what people were claiming.

We're not taste testing here, so the old adage "proof is in the pudding" doesn't apply. Sonar units are higly complex devices. They can be tested in a repeatable way and ranked according to the results.

Is Dick still selling/servicing the units? What was the name of the original company that sold the Genetron? Dick never hid the fact that he bought the design from another company.

I believe that ability of new units to integrate GPS functions with a sonar device and include mapping killed the Genetron because it DID NOT have a microprocessor in it. When I asked what micro was in there, Dick said it was to technical for people to understand. I ran across that response inthe archive.

I will, based on my conversations with Dave, agree that the analog front end of the Genetron may have been somewhat better then the others models of that era. With the DSP built into today's units I'm pretty sure that is not true anymore.

Bottom line (not the company) I maintain that the high end units of today (those costing typically more than $1000) are better than the Genetron of old.

Vern H

PS I don't agree that the Genetron "army" was smarter, either.

Vern,
I know this is a apples to oranges comparison and purely subjective but can you explain why simple Hi-End audio gear with discrete components instead of integrated circuits sound better than "chip" amplifiers? I know this is purely subjective but it is discernable to listeners. I am wondering if hi quality discrete components with a tightly regulated and filtered power supply aid in the performance of both audio gear and possibly the Genetron sounder? The Capra's used to do pool tests in the 90's on different fish finders and although not lab quality the results where interesting. They liked Si-Tex back then. Someone should start testing fishfinders to find true target seperation and such. I know target seperation is a result of pulse width and narrower pulse widths can be achieved with higher operating frequencies like Vexilar Edge's 400khz tranducer. Oh well, I used to be into this stuff alot more 15 years ago when I worked with a engineer that worked in developing a sounder called the SonicWave, I think.

Vern........As my kids would say(and now grand kids) WHATEVER!

Proof is in the livewell...maybe not pudding! lol I am gone.......

Fellegy

Guest

Your high end audio equipment example is a perfect analogy. The proverbial description of the perfect amplifier is a "straight wire with gain."

Double blind tests proved time and time again that the sound of a truly "perfect" amplifiers (flat response, low THD, etc.) couldn't be reliably discerned by the audiophiles. Most of those audiophiles simply liked the sound of tube amplifiers that have a distinct and measurablly different sound. There were even double blind test where engineers modified the response curve of a solid state amplifier and made it appear to be a tube aplifier. The "experts" loved the sound. Instruments measure true amplifier response better than ears. Human ears don't have a flat frequency response and can tolerate a fairly high THD.

They also liked records because they sound "warmer," hated CDs because they are too shrill or cold. The snap, crackle and pops of the needle in the groove were acceptible artifacts.

I saw some of those tests that Capras used to do in a pool. In another thread REW talked about a water column that someone was using to test transducers. Both methods provide repeatable (or nearly so) unbiased information. They do have real limitations. Pool bottoms can be very hard and usually aren't 50 ft deep....

The higher the transducer frequency, the closer the separation that can be measured. Pure physics. Look at the detail that the Hummingbirds get on their side view units. You can't do that with low frequency based pulses. Optical is even better because the frequency is even higher.

People love what they are used to seeing/hearing and there is a very real sense of elitism when you overpay for any piece of equipment , be it an amplifier, sonar, fishing rod, boat,`camera and on an on. There is a point where dumping bucks doesn't get a true benefit anylonger.

One of my friends claimed he could feel a walleye flare its gills just before biting due to the sensitivity of his Loomis rod. I bought the same one. I now tell him that I can feel the walleye looking at my bait with distain as they swim away..... Neither of us could prove our claims, but I really do like my loomis rod....

Kodak tweaked their film color response to make snapshots more brilliant. People liked the vivid colors. My sister in law used to always give me crap cuz her picture of the same group of people taken with a cheap film camera always "looked" better. I cranked up the saturation on my digital camera and duplicated her results. But the picture wasn't real anymore. It was "colored" by the equipment.

In my earlier post, I mentioned that Dave and I talked about how the front end of the Genetron was finely tuned. That also would drift with time and the units were sent back for tune ups. Perhaps the best unit ever would blend the "frontend" of a Genetron and the display/processing "backend" of a current model.

VernH

Steve,

"Proof is in the livewell" just means you are a better fisherman. I'll bet when your Genetron no longer works, you'll still be outfishing me and many others.

Fish locators, rods, lures, boats, etc are all just tools in a craftsman's hands.

Vern H

I recieved an e mail from steve and it is most interesting to see the debate about who makes the best fishfinder surface again. First off lets set the record straight. The genetron actually has two microprocessors. The genetron is both analog and digital. The gentron uses a crt not a lcd screen. It is amusing to me even in my retirement that some people still profess to know the genetrons guts better than we do. Yes we still repair genetrons and will continue to do so for many years to come. Who knows maybe we will build new ones again someday. Dick nutson genetron

I recieved an e mail from steve and it is most interesting to see the debate about who makes the best fishfinder surface again. First off lets set the record straight. The genetron actually has two microprocessors. The genetron is both analog and digital. The gentron uses a crt not a lcd screen. It is amusing to me even in my retirement that some people still profess to know the genetrons guts better than we do. Yes we still repair genetrons and will continue to do so for many years to come. Who knows maybe we will build new ones again someday. Dick nutson genetron

First of all, every sonar unit ABSOLUTELY has to have both analog and digital components it there is any type of display. It's the nature of the device. Only the flasher units can get by without any digital components.

Two Microprocessors? Please then tell us what brand they are, model numbers.etc. Five years ago I asked that question and you said the answer is too technical for the average person to understand. That's a pretty tough statement to say in a forum where everybody uses computer thousands of time more powerful that what could possible be inside the Genetron.

From the information I know from a person who has seen the inside, there are NOT two microprocessors inside the Genetron. There are character generator ROMs (read only memorys) and associated glue logic (ie counters shift registers, clocks, buffers, gates, latches etc.)

Dick, you have now made a statement that you need to back up with real data. If the Genetron is truly the best fishinder ever, help us understand why. Other sonar manufacturers have been let us know what is inside thru patent disclosure info. Most of all the other units have their brochures indicate what is going on inside. I've seen the patents on Lowrance, Hummminbird, Sitex, Impulse, Garmin, Zercom, etc. they readily tell what's inside.

This is how the Genetron "discussions" always went. The unit was shrouded in this "we can't tell you cuz it all a big trade secret" and you couldn't possible understand what we are doing anyway mode. The debate is on going because information was never provided.

It is your reputation on the line now. You can set the record straight by providing the information before some one posts or releases pictures of the inside of a Genetron. I will apologize from now till eternity if I'm wrong. You can clear this up now. There were about 6 microprocessor familys made when the Genetron was first introduced.

Is there anybody who has an Genetron unit willing to send pictures of the circuit board so we can identify the two microprocessors that are being used.

Not everybody liked the Genetron units. Perhaps a disgruntled owner will open their non working unit and will make pictures available. Based on the date codes on the chips, even if you removed the chip markings, it's easy to determine which era microprocessor is being used based on the clock circuitry, power connections, reset circuitry, etc.

Dick, who did you buy the Genetron design from?

Vern H

Dick,

Good to hear from you. Judging from the lower case letters your vision must be improved.

I am in the market for a used Genetron and have found one. I have always wanted one to play around with and now that I have some expendable income I will be purchasing one.

Good to hear that the units can still be serviced.

Vern,

I cannot disagree with any of your statements as you seem to have a pretty good understanding of things. If the purchase of a used Genetron goes thru I will try some unbiased tests of the unit and report my findings, hopefully before ice up.

Vern,

I cannot disagree with any of your statements as you seem to have a pretty good understanding of things. If the purchase of a used Genetron goes thru I will try some unbiased tests of the unit and report my findings, hopefully before ice up.


I would love to hear your results. You seem to be aware of what you are getting so that is good.

Ice up? Are you in the MN area?

Do you have any mapping GPS options for your boat?

Vern H

Mexico, why did you part ways with your Genetron? Was it a reliability issue? What did you get for it for a purchase price? I am thinking of a dual frequency sounder myself for a tiller boat, that leaves me with Genetron or Vexilar.

I sold it because I didn't want to mount it on a boat that I would be parting with every year and I like integrated units...that is not to say I would not buy another in a heartbeat...now that I don't plan on replacing my current boat.

The sale was more of a "paid in advance rental" to someone I fish with often. He knows I get first shot if he ever takes it off his boat. Since buying it, he has purchased two more (he has three boats).

Mexico, thanks for the reply. Vern, I am in western WI. I made the deal and the finder should be on it's way, expect to see it in about a week. May not have time to install it this season. My present sounder is a Lowrance X-85 and a Lowrance Global Nav 1600 GPS, both antiques at this time but that is what's on the boat I just purchased.

I'd be glad to help you "Guest", run the new GT 9.

Email me and I will return some helpful hints/direction.

Steve Fellegy
sf@northlc.com

Still wainting to hear about the two micfroprocessors in a Genetron unit. Anybody know that information?

Vern H

When I flick my lightswitch on in my house the lights come on. I don't wonder what kind of wire they ran, the type of transformer used...how many hops it had to make to turn on my lights. Much the same as my boat motor it starts...runs...uses gas...oil...gets me too fish...I'm okay with that...I do not need to know how it works or why. Much like my computer, I know it starts, process information and also connects to the interenet...but i certainly do not need to know more than that about what it does.

If a fish graph shows me fish...and I catch fish...and it is one I like...then I'm okay with that as well. If it does not do what I want or like...then I will get a different one. I do not need to look under the hood to see why. I don't care if it is a Lowrance...Humminbird...or Genetron...matters little to me. It works the way it works and it simply works the way I like.

I own a Lowrance LCX-111c, a guy I fished with owned a Genetron...didn't matter to me...we caught fish in both our boats....

When I flick my lightswitch on in my house the lights come on. I don't wonder what kind of wire they ran, the type of transformer used...how many hops it had to make to turn on my lights. Much the same as my boat motor it starts...runs...uses gas...oil...gets me too fish...I'm okay with that...I do not need to know how it works or why. Much like my computer, I know it starts, process information and also connects to the interenet...but i certainly do not need to know more than that about what it does.

If a fish graph shows me fish...and I catch fish...and it is one I like...then I'm okay with that as well. If it does not do what I want or like...then I will get a different one. I do not need to look under the hood to see why. I don't care if it is a Lowrance...Humminbird...or Genetron...matters little to me. It works the way it works and it simply works the way I like.

I own a Lowrance LCX-111c, a guy I fished with owned a Genetron...didn't matter to me...we caught fish in both our boats....

Remember this thread started when someone again asked if Genetron is still the best depth sounder. That is a pretty specific question. The person apparently wasn't able to do a side by side comparison. Another way to compare units is to look at the specs. Never seen them published in one place for a Genetron so that just can't be done.

I'm not sure your comparison is apple to apples. Are you saying that the lightswitch, etc. in your house is the best? Sounds like it is simply adequate, just like mine. Never been interested in upgrading lightswitches. I've owned 7 different locators in the past 16 years. Owned 16 computers since 1978 and am very interested in how they work and are upgraded. Different things are important to different people.

Some people really do need to know what's under the hood of their computer to determine if it will run their computationally intensive programs. Some people really want to know what's under the hood of their sonar unit. I've taken more than one apart to see what's inside.

I know, based on comments on this thread and previous threads like it in the past five years, that I am one of many who want to know about all the locator options.

Vern H

The Vexilar EDGE 2 is a top player for sure, tough to beat it's ability's to locate and distinguish fish and/or structure. Reliable, dependable, easy to understand and use.

In the category of GPS/Sonar, than my hat is off to Garmin.

Garmin is breaking ground now where others will struggle for years to catch up. In my personal opinion, the new 5 X units and above are amazing in every way.

I just pulled the plug on a brand new Lowrance x510c that had issues that Lowrance couldn`t resolve. I then bought a reconditioned Edge 2 from Vexilars web site. The Edge2 is a great unit. I would be willing to bet its one of the very best out there. The Vexilar is a straight forward no nonsense graph with two separate transducers dedicated to bothl 107mhz and 400mhz frequencys.
The Edge was built with quality in mind. I noticed that the wire is of a higher grade than that used on other graphs that I had.. The Edge isn`t cheap but my mind was at ease when I opened the box and saw its construction and made in Japan rather than China or Mexico.

You will be happy with the Edge, If I had not found this Genetron that would have been my next choice. I owned a Edge about 6 years ago and sold it with the boat it was on and missed it since.

We love mysteries!!!!!!! After owning a company for 20 some years we cant wait for someone to tell us exactly what we were making!!!!! Also a little aside about getting units tuned. All the companies that used to make high end sonars suggest getting the unit looked at by a good tech every so often. Like an indy pace car a well tuned sonar is the cats meow when it comes to detecting fish! Particulary a bottom feeding fish like a walleye. Again let me say that a really good sonar will work in the air as well as it does in water so you can test without going through the rigamoral of setting up in deep water or shallow for that matter. Wow this getting better than an agatha christie novel. Did an et really design the genetron? Stay tuned dick knutson

We love mysteries!!!!!!! After owning a company for 20 some years we cant wait for someone to tell us exactly what we were making!!!!! Also a little aside about getting units tuned. All the companies that used to make high end sonars suggest getting the unit looked at by a good tech every so often. Like an indy pace car a well tuned sonar is the cats meow when it comes to detecting fish! Particulary a bottom feeding fish like a walleye. Again let me say that a really good sonar will work in the air as well as it does in water so you can test without going through the rigamoral of setting up in deep water or shallow for that matter. Wow this getting better than an agatha christie novel. Did an et really design the genetron? Stay tuned dick knutson

We would be glad to have you tell us exactly what the specs are on your unit but you have resisted doing so for move than 5 years.

I can guess as to a couple reasons why you would not tell us that information. In that past, is was always a "trade secret."

Any patent numbers you wish to share? Or does ET only know those numbers (along with the part numbers onthe two microprocessors that you say are in the unit?)

You can stop all the speculation with a single post. My guess is that you really like the publicity that you get.

VernH

Since this is turning into the usual "off topic" Genetron post and nothing is being added in value to the original posters question...I am locking it.

How a Genetron is built has nothing to do with the topic...and why Dick wants to turn this into a game...also has nothing to do with the topic...plain and simple.

Too bad opinions could not be expressed without it getting personal...oh well...that is why we can lock posts.

Mexico