Which gun is better Cooper 30-06 or Sako 85 300 WSM

[lindstd]

I am in the process of buying a all around gun for whitetail, elk, moose etc. I really like the Copper but it does not come in the caliber that I was ideally looking for. Only a 270, 280 or 30-06. The Sako 85 comes in a 7 WSM and a 300 WSM. I am wondering if a 30-06 would be enough to shot very long range if ever needed? Or should I just buy the Sako 85 in a 300 WSM that I know will get to that range. I know the Copper's are a custom gun and are very accurate and the Sako's are now made on a production line from Beretta. I appreciate anyones knowledge of this subject. Thanks a lot.

[2Labs]

I am in the process of buying a all around gun for whitetail, elk, moose etc. I really like the Cooper but it does not come in the caliber that I was ideally looking for. Only a 270, 280 or 30-06. The Sako 85 comes in a 7 WSM and a 300 WSM. I am wondering if a 30-06 would be enough to shot very long range if ever needed? Or should I just buy the Sako 85 in a 300 WSM that I know will get to that range. I know the Copper's are a custom gun and are very accurate and the Sako's are now made on a production line from Beretta. I appreciate anyones knowledge of this subject. Thanks a lot.


I don't know either gun specifically. Can't help you with that.

BUT, I DO know the calibers. I followed the WSM's, the RUM's, the MM Mag's, etc. when the "short magnums" were being developed. They are functional, of good design, and will do the job.

BUT, I stuck with my .30-06 caliber for several reasons.
1.) You can get ammo for it anywhere.
2.) Factory loads include 150, 180, and 220 grain bullets. And, there are a ton of different bullet designs for it. Not that you would want to, but you can even get (or at least could get at one time -- I have 2 boxes purchased in 2000 if I recall correctly) 110 grain sabots for varmint shooting. I have always read that you can kill any game on the North American continent except the Brown Bear with the available off-the-shelf loads for the .30-06. My use has been for Black Bear, Mule Deer, and Whitetal Deer and I have never had a problem getting one-shot kills. The 180 grain has done well on elk and moose according to my friends and relatives who have used it on them ... I have not because I never had an interest in those hunts.
3.) It has killed a bunch of deer very efficiently for me from 20 yards to 225 yards.
4.) If you are using a modern bolt action .30-06 in good shape, you can hand-load it up to .300 Win Mag stats.

I always figured, why put up with the recoil of the Mags unless you specifically need it. And, if you DO need it, you can handload some rounds OR buy some from some of the specialty loading web sites.

There is an opposing philosophy. My brother-in-law shot the .300 Win Mag for a long time and took a lot of deer with it -- including long-range shooting on Western hunts. Then he "moved up" for his long-range Western hunting after several hunts because he figured that wasn't enough gun for his 250+ yard shots. He bought a Weatherby .338-.378 (.338 caliber bullet on a necked-down .378 caliber casing) with a recoil brake on the muzzle and put a big Swarovski scope on it. The rig cost him $1200 back in 2000 and would be a lot more now. A box of factory load 20 rounds at Gander cost $90 at the time and $120 now. He has taken mule deer at 400 yards with it (he tells me) and if I remember right, he tells me he has it sighted in for 250 yards and the drop at 400 is only a few inches (my memory may not be exactly right on the trajectory but I think it is pretty close). That is with a 220-grain .338 caliber bullet.

My point is, I guess it is all in what you want a gun to be able to do.

Me? I will stick with my .30-06. I sight it in 1-inch high at 100 yards and it is dead on at 200 (the typical gun mag table says 3-inches high at 100 is on at 200, but my bench work with several types of ammo shows that is not correct).

Hope this helps. Good luck with your choice.

[Ziert]

30.06 165 grain spitzer boattail at 2800 fps mv - bc =.477 - sd .248 7.7 inch drop at 300 yards, with a 200 yard zero.


300 winchester mag 168 grain spitzer boattail at 3300 fps mv - bc = .471 - sd .248 5.3 inch drop at 300 yards with a 200 yard zero.

there is very little diff at 200 yard zero.

at 100 yard zero, the diff is just slightly more where you'd hafta hold 6 inches higher with the .06.

Still not worth buying that 300 magnum just to say you had one.

If you are going to take long shots, sight your rifle in properly, and practice long shots. Otherwise don't take em.

I own a .06 and a 8mm magnum. But you see these are for diff size and tougfhness of the intended game.

[Wormy]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but if you are asking other people this question maybe you should reconsider taking "very long shots" at an animal.

There is nothing wrong with a good old 30/06 and it will take down anything in North America

A Sako is a nice rifle and a Cooper is a great rifle!

[Dodge1]

I am wondering if a 30-06 would be enough to shot very long range if ever needed? Or should I just buy the Sako 85 in a 300 WSM that I know will get to that range.

IMHO, the 30-06 is one of the finest all around cartridges ever made and that’s why so many rifle manufactures include it in their lineup.

FYI, "U.S. Marine sniper, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hath****, took many of his shots at 700 yards with his Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hath****

[lindstd]

Is this a better option? I heard very good things about this gun. I know they had some Issues a few years ago but it appears everything is all good now. I am wondering if this gun is as accurate as a Sako. Some people are telling me yes then some are saying even better and some are saying the Sako is better. Any info would be very helpful. Thanks.

[Ziert]

All you'll get are layer upon layer of stuff that finally makes you cry. Friends are important. But if you always do what your friends do, you will never reach your full potential of being you.


Kimber is the best there is. Not just - because. . . but BECAUSE !


On anything you want to buy, cars, rifles, or cereal boxes, read all you can about the product - knowing a certain amount of what is written can be hype. Check out the company history/reputation, and the manufacturing process, and the quality control, and the attention to detail, and how it looks, and whether or not they offer a custom shop, and the type of rifling used, and the customer satisfaction, and the inherent accuracy, and the, and the, and the. . . Then go to the dealer and ask him to measure - check out the head spacing while you stand there and watch. You are doing this for some grasp of closer tolerances.

Get all the meaningful categories lined up across the page by column, and then list the manufacturers down the page. It's a little work, but you can easily see what's what.


Do this, and "you" will know "you" made the best choice for "you".


I'll repeat something if I may - In the moment of truth, a rifle is only as good as the person that pulls the trigger. That statement has far reaching implications - way, way beyond - before and after the firearm. . . now that, my friends, is real long range shooting.

Quixote Lives ! Don’t shoot his horse from 500 yards away.

[2Labs]

Is this a better option? I heard very good things about this gun. I know they had some Issues a few years ago but it appears everything is all good now. I am wondering if this gun is as accurate as a Sako. Some people are telling me yes then some are saying even better and some are saying the Sako is better. Any info would be very helpful. Thanks.


Let me give you some advice I learned the hard way. The "hard way" was spending a lot of money trying to buy "the best" or "the right gun" or whatever I read in the NRA's "The Rifleman", "Shooting Times", "Gun Magazine" or any other outdoors/hunting magazine. I have had dozens of high-powered rifles and shotguns. Bolt actions, lever actions, semi-autos, pump actions, side-by-sides, over-unders, -- more than I can remember. My wife has been very tolerant of my "disease" as I never smoked and seldom drink and never gambled or otherwise spent money foolishly.

There is NO PERFECT GUN. Period. BUT there are a bunch of good ones that you can buy relatively cheaply, shoot a lot relatively cheaply, and learn what you like and don't like about specific gun features. If I were you, I would buy one of them, put a good scope on it, and learn about trajectories, gun features, and about yourself. That is the best advice you will ever get about gun purchasing. You don't have to have "the best". You don't have to throw a lot of money at "the best" like I did.

I am down to 2 high-powered rifles now. I have a pump carbine Remington 7600 .30-06 that I bought in 1995. It shoots 1-inch groups at 100 yards with factory ammo. The other is a stainless steel Browning A-Bolt in .30-06 that also shoots 1-inch groups at 100 yards with factory ammo. I use the Remington for my deer hunting and my bear hunting because it is short, light, never malfunctions, and never changes zero on me. The Browning is my backup. The Remington barrel interior is perfect because I take care of my guns, but the stock has lots of nicks and scratches -- to the point of my embarrassment -- because I have banged it against tree stands, ladders, deer carts, trees, brush, antlers, etc. in dozens of hunts. The bluing is fading in spots because I have carried it so much and shoved it in and out of cases so much. But, I will never sell that gun or use another to hunt. And I never use the Browning although I like it enough to keep it as a backup.

If I were to start again, like you apparently are (forgive me if I assume that if it happens to not be the case -- but it appears so based on your posts), I would buy a Savage 110 in .30-06 caliber. I would put a Leupold VX1 2x-7x scope on it (same as on my pump) or the Leupold VX1 3x-9x as is on my Browning. Savage had some problems in the 1980's. They made garbage guns. They went bankrupt. They were bought out by 1 man who was committed to excellence at a decent price and that company has achieved it.

The Savage 110 shoots very accurately, the Accu-trigger is a GREAT trigger (light pull), it has lots of small features that other guns lack, and Savage stands behind their guns. No, your buddies won't die of envy every time you pull it out of the gun case. No, the gun writers won't tell you that it is the best gun ever made. No one will swoon over your purchase. But it shoots. It is accurate. It will take whatever game you hunt.

AND, it will get you some experience, it will do so inexpensively, and you will never regret your purchase. From there, you can learn about what you like/don't like in guns, handle other guns in gun shops, talk to lots of hunters, etc. By the way, gun writers make their living by getting everybody fired up about the latest/greatest caliber or "the best deer rifle of all time" or "the best multi-purpose rifle of all time" or "the worlds best gun" and topics like that. I went nuts about every article I read too. And I bought "the best" gun every time I read about the next "best gun ever".

Take my advice. Start with a good basic gun, a good basic scope, spend your money on ammo, shoot that gun a lot, and then if you want to start spending money on a "better gun", you have something to compare against and a knowledge base on which to move forward.

I probably have told you things you didn't want to hear. But, it is the cold hard truth. Right now your mind is reeling with all the input you have gotten from all the sources you have pursued. Good for you for trying to be informed!! But, some experience at hunting and shooting will help you sort things out. Oh, and remember -- gun writers get paid for hype. I can't tell you that enough times. There are a limited number of gun owners in the states and the industry survives by selling MORE guns to those same owners.

Good luck with your purchase. Enjoy the experience -- the shooting, the anticipation of the hunt, and the hunt itself -- THAT is what it is all about.

[Bassbuster]

All you'll get are layer upon layer of stuff that finally makes you cry. Friends are important. But if you always do what your friends do, you will never reach your full potential of being you.


Kimber is the best there is. Not just - because. . . but BECAUSE !


On anything you want to buy, cars, rifles, or cereal boxes, read all you can about the product - knowing a certain amount of what is written can be hype. Check out the company history/reputation, and the manufacturing process, and the quality control, and the attention to detail, and how it looks, and whether or not they offer a custom shop, and the type of rifling used, and the customer satisfaction, and the inherent accuracy, and the, and the, and the. . . Then go to the dealer and ask him to measure - check out the head spacing while you stand there and watch. You are doing this for some grasp of closer tolerances.

Get all the meaningful categories lined up across the page by column, and then list the manufacturers down the page. It's a little work, but you can easily see what's what.


Do this, and "you" will know "you" made the best choice for "you".


I'll repeat something if I may - In the moment of truth, a rifle is only as good as the person that pulls the trigger. That statement has far reaching implications - way, way beyond - before and after the firearm. . . now that, my friends, is real long range shooting.

Quixote Lives ! Don’t shoot his horse from 500 yards away.

Ziert:

Which Kimber do you like in 1911 for BOTH target and personal defense? In other words I don't have enough Kimber dollars to get one of each...

[Ziert]

If I was to buy one and only one, I'd favor a little bit longer slide. This ones a 5 inch barrel.


http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/tactical/tactical_custom_II/

[Bassbuster]

If I was to buy one and only one, I'd favor a little bit longer slide. This ones a 5 inch barrel.


http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/tactical/tactical_custom_II/

Thanks.

[Somethins_Fishy]

Well, I can't disagree with most of whats been said here, as it's (for the most part) accurate and good advice. That being said, I, unlike the rest here would choose the .300 wsm over the .30-06 .

First, you have to know yourself and consider whether you're able to deal with the shock and recoil of the magnum versus the -06 . Not a huge difference, but enough to make some guys flinch with the magnum and not as much with the -06. If the magnum recoil doesn't effect you, then you may want to give the magnum a look.

The magnum is ballistically superior to the .06 with similar actions in size and weight. If you're looking for a rifle to do more jobs and cost isn't a factor than the magnum is the choice IMHO . As others have mentioned, the -06 is the most practical as it has a "LOT" more shelf ammo available to you and are normally a cheaper weapon to buy .

You would not be making a mistake buying the -06 as it's a fine round and will be cheaper to operate, but the magnum does a better job ballistically and offers more punch in a similar weapon .

[Burr]

Both of those guns, the Sako 85 and Cooper 52 are really nice, I'd like to have both of them. Is that an option?

The Cooper stands out above the Sako in my opinion. I just realized Cooper started making a repeating bolt with your post. There are several other calibers for the Cooper, although most lend themselves to handloading.

The individual attention in making your 1 firearm is what I believe is a nice plus, and the Cooper wood is always very nice.

[fishman10]

I am in the process of buying a all around gun for whitetail, elk, moose etc. I really like the Copper but it does not come in the caliber that I was ideally looking for. Only a 270, 280 or 30-06. The Sako 85 comes in a 7 WSM and a 300 WSM. I am wondering if a 30-06 would be enough to shot very long range if ever needed? Or should I just buy the Sako 85 in a 300 WSM that I know will get to that range. I know the Copper's are a custom gun and are very accurate and the Sako's are now made on a production line from Beretta. I appreciate anyones knowledge of this subject. Thanks a lot.

i have shot a 3006 all my life in northern canada. it is a great calibre, but now with the larger forestry cutovers there are chances for longer shots. i have recently purchased a 300wsm and let me tell you this is a great calibre. ammo is easy to obtain, it shoots flat and carries a **** of a punch. there is no such thing as too much gun, and after watching what the mags do on moose compared to the 06 there is no turning back.

[dotizzy33]

I would personally go with the 300 wsm. You could kill anything in North America and if you wanted to take a trip to Africa, it has dangerous game ammo that can take down game as big as cape buffalo.

[AllenW]

300 would be my choice being your shooting longer distances, you can still find ammo should you run out or forget it, maybe not the choices of a 06, but enough to easily get by.

kimber would not be my choice in rifles or pistols, there's better out there for the money and by far better customer service.

Al

[Bassbuster]

kimber would not be my choice in rifles or pistols, there's better out there for the money and by far better customer service.

Al

Al:

Just curious what you like for .45? I absolutely love my Kimbers, but I am always looking for something better.

For rifles, Sako has a lot of bang for the buck.

[AllenW]

Al:

Just curious what you like for .45? I absolutely love my Kimbers, but I am always looking for something better.

For rifles, Sako has a lot of bang for the buck.


I know two people who were unhappy with Kimber cust service, other that that they're probably ok firearms.

But my favorite would be the SVI open gun I have, the STI I have is a good gun too, if I was going to buy a .45 and wanted the most for my money while not spending a fortune on a SVI/STI I'd look at Springfield, good gun, accurate, and reasonably priced, and your not paying for the Kimber or other custom gun names.

I also have a Colt that Clark went over and it is a tackdriver, it'll shoot .45 wadcutters through full house loads and never jam, I've used that gun for everything from pin shoots to bullseye, not sure you want to spend that kind of money though, I think you pay a bit much for the Colt name also.

So...Springfield it'd be if I was looking for a basic good gun in .45, I have a H&K USP that is a great gun if your looking for a plastic gun, but they are a bit bigger than a 1911, one of the H&K compacts might be nice, never owned one, but the ones I shot were nice.

My carry .45 was a Starr PD but I have now went over to Ruger LCR revolver in .38+p, unbelivibly light and very nice to shoot.
Might want to give a wheel gun a try too..:)

But remember...ITS ALL ABOUT PERSONAL CHOICE!!!!

And what your gonna use it for.

If your happy with whatever you shoot, don't let me or anyone tell ya different, I've shot kimber pistols and thought they we nice, not as nice as others, better than some, but if you gave one to me, and it shot well, I'd keep it...personal choice again.

Al

[Phil T]

Which target game are you considering? If it's bullseye competition, get the catalog from Gil Hebard Guns (I don't think they have a website, but their address can be found with a web search).
Kimber builds one 45 auto, with different finishes, barrel lengths, grips, etc. The barrel quality seems the same.
I have a Stainless Target model II and a Commander-length Eclipse. The Eclipse is more accurate than the "target" model. If I were to take up bullseye shooting again, I'd skip the $2500 Kimber model they claim is for that game, and spend a little more on a Les Baer.
If you're going to shoot big "combat" targets or just plink to stay in practice, KImber is fine. Just don't expect 1 1/2" 10-shot groups at 50 yards.

[fishman10]

i own both an 06 and just purchased a 300wsm. i just returned from an african hunt with the 300wsm. the 300wsm performed great, both rifles are great but the 300wsm shines at long distances and has far more hitting power especially on moose size game. it depends on what you are after and distance shooting. you would not be disapointed with the 300wsm.

[tzonetom]

I am in the process of buying a all around gun for whitetail, elk, moose etc. I really like the Copper but it does not come in the caliber that I was ideally looking for. Only a 270, 280 or 30-06. The Sako 85 comes in a 7 WSM and a 300 WSM. I am wondering if a 30-06 would be enough to shot very long range if ever needed? Or should I just buy the Sako 85 in a 300 WSM that I know will get to that range. I know the Copper's are a custom gun and are very accurate and the Sako's are now made on a production line from Beretta. I appreciate anyones knowledge of this subject. Thanks a lot.

Cooper gave a TON of money to Obama, so if you're into that go for it, but I will not give 1 cent to them for as long as I live.

The 30-06 will work in nearly any situation that will ever need. There is nothing I would be afraid to shoot with an 06, it may not be the best application for everything, but it will work.

If you'r just hunting deer, elk, black bear.....there is nothing more suited for that IMO.

[hgmeyer]

IMHO, the 30-06 is one of the finest all around cartridges ever made and that’s why so many rifle manufactures include it in their lineup.

FYI, "U.S. Marine sniper, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hath****, took many of his shots at 700 yards with his Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hath****


A great hunter in his own element... A hero among Marines and a man that won the Wimbledon match at Camp Perry (1000 yrds) ... What he (and his equally accurate shooting Marine (Ret.) son, Carlos Hatch**** III) were (and CIII is still) capable of doing with a rifle isn't a fair comparison to mere mortals. As CIII says; "it ain't work till it's 600 yards!"

That said, the .30-06 is capable of doing its job on all but the largest animals in North America (brown bear...where a .50 cal ain't enough gun in my book). However, I have learned over the years that "one gun" for "everything requires way too many compromises.

A lot of threads on various boards have run with the One-two-three gun battery... what would you do/own. The consensus choice at one is either a .30-06 or a .300 Win Mag... Two gets you a 6-7mm (.24-284) of some variety and a .32-.35 at the top. Three generally gets you a 6-65 (.24-260), a 7-7.65mm (.284-.300) and a .32-375) at the top. As you can see, even in those consensus ranges the spread and variety of individual calibers is "vast". But, always, in all of those threads a good showing is made by the .30-06. My point is, that buying a great rifle in .30-06 fitted with a great scope ( and I mean get a great, not good, scope) will fit into a one gun or a five (or more) gun battery and fill its role well. And, it does have the best choices avaialable for factory ammo. (They won't all shoot as well in your rifle...there is a big difference in the optimal twist rate for a .30 100gr and a .30 220gr, but they will shoot!)