The Demon Dodge Ball Dilemma?

[Backwater Eddy]

Ok, has anyone seen this "Anti-Dodge Ball movement" thing? What the heck is that all about Eh?

They say it is too aggressive and teaches the hunter/hunted ethic? I wonder who is behind that terminology?

Aggressive, sure, so what!

Kids can burn off stress naturally in an hour of interactive fun or go to the office and get their daily dosing of Ritalin.

Why not more natural ups and downs, instead of fewer? After an hour of dodge ball in my experience you were calm, and poopped out. Hay it was fun!

What we too often see now is chemically altered states approved by the “In house school specialist” who also gets weekend trips from drug companies to attend seminars.

Dodge ball was also fun and it taught instincts and strategy if properly monitored.

What next?


Backwater Eddy ~ ~ ~><sUMo> ~ ><>

http://home.talkcity.com/ResortRd/backwtr1/index.html

[TK_551]

I totally agree! I played dodge ball all through grammar school and it was always a blast. It was always something that we looked forward too. Society has become way too sensitive and ritalin sure seems like the fix all to all kids behavioral problems. If that doesn't work, they get put on other stuff like lithium. There is always something to blame-television, video games, etc. People now just always play the blame game and take the easy way out.

Tom
#551

[Water Dog]

This is nothing more than political correctness gone amock !

To listen to the blatherskites preach this nonsense is a recipe for a migraine headache .

They can not state their purpose with out a long draw out discussion of the evils of dodge ball .

Any time some one needs more than one paragraph to state their point .

Guess what ?

They are blatherskites !

Don't let the bas###ds wear you down .

[tbomn]

Eddy,

Could you explain this statement:

"What we too often see now is chemically altered states approved by the “In house school specialist” who also gets weekend trips from drug companies to attend seminars."

[stevefellegy]

Dod dod dod dddge ba ball and wa wa wa waall... eyes on the same page?
And I was called "nuts" when discussing my underwear color fishing patterns? lol lol Geez ....what have I been missin' all these years....man.lol
I gotta order a new rainsuit just to shed the tears from laughing at some of this stuff you dish up.lol Gotta love it!

[Backwater Eddy]

It is a widely excepted belief that ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) is over diagnosed and subsequently over prescribed in terms of medication in young pre-adolescent males.

I know this from working with mental health professionals who feel ADD was over diagnosed in epidemic proportions over the past 10-15 years in America. Suddenly ADD became a fad diagnosis, and a cure all for behavioral deficiencies of young males in our schools. Drug companies helped to indoctrinate educational professionals into this thinking. We all seen it as an easy fix, we bought into it easily.

From personal experience I dealt with a school concerning a family member on this issue. The school insisted that the family member be placed under ADD medication or find another school to attend.

It took 4 different Doctors to finally back up their claim that it was possibly beneficial in that particular case. Three out of the 4 DR’s said it was not necessary to resort to ADD medications to improve in school performance. They kept it up tell they found one that did, that Dr. then became that schools expert of their choice concerning my family member.

When 50-67% of male student in a single class all become diagnosed as having ADD, something is very wrong!

I do not think it is malicious, just a fad diagnoses run amuck in the schools of America.

Backwater Eddy ~ ~ ~><sUMo> ~ ><>



http://home.talkcity.com/ResortRd/backwtr1/index.html

[Backwater Eddy]

Steve, my point is the Dodge Ball thing is just symptomatic of bigger things brewing.

[tbomn]

Well, being in the education business, and really know what the process is, because I work in it every day, would suggest that you find out what the facts are about ADD and ADHD. Especially in the school setting. I'll leave it at that, because I don't feel this is the place to discuss what are, and what aren't the facts in this regard.

I will say that those statements that you make as fact, should have been researched before being made.

[bigfish1965]

Eddy was right. My father is a psychotherapist and it is alarming the amount of false ADD/ADHD diagnosis going on. It is simply a case of lazy people looking for an easy fix. Want a simple fix? TAKE A KID FISHING!!!! Fishing teaches them patience and methodical thinking. Cobined with a few hours not in front of a monitor or TV and you will soon see a huge differnce. I first made this suggestion to my father as a lark. He thought it had merit and now recommends to many of his patients. It has a better than 40 % success rate.

[Backwater Eddy]

The fact is the family member was my son, and I did go through the process with him.

TBO I am not saying it was done maliciously by the school, just that is was done. We went through it so I know the process well, and the pressure they applied to fallow their recommendations.

They are widely over diagnosed, both ADD and ADHD. Not all schools do go as overboard as others do.

Backwater Eddy ~ ~ ~><sUMo> ~ ><>

http://home.talkcity.com/ResortRd/backwtr1/index.html

[lobo1]

BE,

I see your point but I think that the main issue boils down to a bigger one at hand. In my business I see alot of this, either the teachers or the cops get stuck with being the parents of kids these days. The one income family is the rarity any more - the matriarch has been forced to fly the coop to earn cabbage. Things have changed and shall never return back to what many call "normal".
People are laying the blame almost everywhere except where the truth is and that is LACK OF PARENTING. A secondary cause, to me, would be the extremely high doses of sugars that the American public is consuming - especially kids.
Dads and especially mom's want and need a concrete solution to their problems. I have no doubt that there are kids in need of medication but I also know that many have recieved them without cause.
IMHO - 75% of the problem with today's youth in the schools is lack of parents and dietary problems.
Personnaly we have taken a stand that there are no video games, gameboys etc in the house and we limit the kids to one hour of brain mush per day (the rest needs to be educational or just old fashioned reading). We also try to get them a high protein Bfast to start the day and pack a reasonable lunch (we let them have the goodies and go nuts when they come home).

Dodgeball used to be great - and I'm sure it helped develop the arm I used to pay for my college tuition.

lobo

[Backwater Eddy]

For some interesting reading on the topic.

http://home.att.net/~Fred-Alden/Es39.html

Because it hit very close to home I chose to research ADD & AHHD in my college research paper for a mental health care associates degree.

It is no big wonder the neurological and psychological communities argue over what ADD or ADHD actual is, and if it is anything at all. It is a very controversial topic and still ambiguous to what the final diagnosis criteria should consist of to make the call.

Micro-dose therapy has seen very positive results on many true cases of ADHD.

Backwater Eddy ~ ~ ~><sUMo> ~ ><>

http://home.talkcity.com/ResortRd/backwtr1/index.html

[outdoor fanatic]

I'm not sure I agree with the argument. I do however agree that there is a movement that would like to take everything and put it into the nice little box that they have painted. Butm take a look at depression. Do you realize how many people are on antidepressants? It was the stigma that was associated with the disease that kept a lot of people from seeking help. Once you realize that depression is a chemical imbalance rather than being crazy, you see that more people are willing to seek help. However, please don't be so quick to think that decisions are made because someone went on a trip paid for by a pharmaceutical company. The goal of any health provider is to make someone better with the least amount of medicine possible. Health care providers don't make any more money by writing a prescrition. We must be careful in making points that are not entirely based on facts, just opinion. I must admit that I took the statement about drug companies personally, because I work for one. Regardless, statements that flame an industry based upon opinion don't do any good. I realize that wasn't the intent of your post, so it's no big deal. Just realize that the same drug companies that you are quick to blame are the same companies that are working hard to improve you and your family's quality of life and are a big reason why people are living longer, healthier lives. On the plus side, I'm a huge fan of dodgeball and wonder if things like this are the reason why kids are turning to guns instead of just going behind the school, fighting and then becoming friends after all is said and done? It makes me worry for the future and hope that I can raise my kids the best I can. Just my two cents.

[Kevin/CO]

Two parts to the response:
1) Dodge ball is being taken out of schools because of yes political correctness and yes students use it to pick on the un-popular kids. Why should anyone listen to this more then anyone else? I am in High School and the closest to actually having been in grade school. Its politics, everyday clubs and teams have rituals banned because it offends one person. All it takes is someone's feelings to get hurt and the right or wrong person to decide to flex their political muscles. Parents don't want their children to be singled out or treated less then the popular kids, heaven forbid that an anti-social child be excluded or singled out. All that aside I don't know if its right to take it or leave it in. Kids will always find a way to single out those that they deem as "nerds" or "geeks", its in our society to want to be the best, the strongest, the most loved and its going to have to be. If you take out the venues for kids to vent and do what society teaches them then guess what, it gets more severe and more extreme. In my first years of schooling I was singled out as one of the nerdy kids and picked on in the game, I got good at it because of it and was one heck of a dodge ball player which lead to me being treated with respect. I am rambling now, but put some thought to it, theres been so much emphasis put on these types of things since that day in April in I believe 99. Its just how things are now, people saw the outcast stand up for themselves and they don't wnat anymore of that, too bad nothings changed when you get down to it.






2) To BE's comments on ADD and ADHD, I am not going to claim to be an expert, however I do live with a person who deals primarily one on one with only ADD and ADHD children. part of what is happening with the over diagnosis is the sudden increase in children who are extremely right brained. Teachers and schools really haven't ever seen this before and feel that drugs will make them normal, these kids don't have ADD or ADHD they just think completely different. The biggest cause of this is and this shoudln't be a shock to you, its video games. They aren't bad but many kids that grow up with them don't have the same stimulli that people used to have and their thought processes and brains work differently because of it. Its a fad because its something people don't understand and judge so fast because its easy.

[Backwater Eddy]

Outdoor fanatic & TBO I apologize if I appeared to flame either of you or your professions, that was not my intent. I have high regard for teachers and medical professionals.

I do feel strongly that we as a culture have been far too eager to jump to quick fixes.

How about we all line up, get out the Dodge Balls, and get this cabin fever thing settled once and for all?

;)


Backwater Eddy…….><sUMo>

[SUPERTROLLER]

Eddy, I'm sure you don't fall into the category of my next statement so I want to clarify that right away. I know you are a genuinely caring parent from interacting with you over the years we have been here.

I have several guys I work with or in our group of friends that have children classified as either ADD or ADHD. Why is it that these guys and their wives are the worst ones for disciplining their kids and even watching them to be sure they behaive at someone elses house? They are so oblivious to their kids actions that we severely limit being around them. I watch my kids like a hawk and have two of the greatest kids a father could hope for. No, they're not perfect and I do allow them to screw up on their own now and then, but the teachers always tell us they wish they had twenty more like mine in the classroom becuase they are a joy to have around. They didn't just turn out this way by luck. We taught them to listen to adults and always treat others as they would like to be treated in return.

Two years ago I was helping out with a fishing outing at the pond at the school. We were doing a census count of species caught and size in the pond for Science class. Two kids had their own teachers assistant to help maintain control of them in class. The teacher asked them two or three times to sit down and be quiet because they were disrupting the class. The T.A. also asked them in a whisper to behaive because they had a guest in the room today. Their response was to look at me with contempt and ignore everyone else and continue talking to each other. I asked the teacher later on why he put up with it. He said he was no longer allowed to send them to the office. It was his responsibility to teach them and he had to do the best he could by keeping them in class. These kids had learned that there would be NO repercussions from their continued misbehavior and thus they had free license to do as they pleased. It was all I could do to maintain myself when those kids ignored all requests to stop making chaos in the room so the teacher could finish instructions for the kids to go outside and start fishing. The teacher also is at fault here. He continued to allow them to act up. He never lost his cool or raised his voice. He in effect had told them he would not rain on their parade either. I would never allow two students to dictate to a whole room of otherwise well behaived kids. Someone, Somewhere has to tell them that enough is enough. Whether they are ADD or ADHD, or not. They still need a good kick in the pants and be taught what proper behavior is in class. There was no problem with their attention and they weren't hyperactive. They were just terribly mannered because they were allowed to be that way.

I firmly believe that there are very few actual ADD or ADHD cases. I think most are just excuses for bad parenting and not hurting the kids self esteem by yelling at them and explaining what is expected of them. It doesn't matter if it's the parents or the schools. These kids hear it's not their fault, they can't help themselves, it just their nature to be this way. These kids are being done a terrible disservice. Drugs were not going to make those two act any different unless you gave them enough to knock them out cold.

I'm sure someone is going to tell me how ignorant I am on this subject. That's okay. I'm not claiming to be an expert on drugging our youths into proper conduct in public. I just know what I see. I see rotten parents that are too busy with their own lives and too ready to blame someone else for their kids rotten behavior.

[WAeyes]

I don't remember the nerdy kids getting picked on but they usually were hit first because everybody hid behind them until they could get a ball. Point is everybody ended up getting hit with the ball and I don't understand how this is so harmful to kids now. I absolutely loved it when one of those nerdy kids would grab the ball and give it he11!

[Backwater Eddy]

The video game/gaming thing is an interesting problem in itself. Both for children and adults.

An odd but beneficial side effect of video gaming with my son was he could learn to stay on task by playing them, in his case it helped if monitored.

We pointed this out to the concealing staff and we found it had some positive effects for him. You had to set up a time limit like 20 min and that’s if for the day, back to the books we go.

Synaptic dominance has been characterized as a parallel process to addiction in many ways. In that it trains the brain through a reward cycle of stimulation and relaxation, positive reinforcement. Video games are addictive to some, more then in others.

Good point!


Backwater Eddy ~ ~ ~><sUMo> ~ ><>


http://home.talkcity.com/ResortRd/backwtr1/index.html

[Backwater Eddy]

I am FAR from a perfect parent, parenting is a tough job, but I thank you for that vote of confidence Supertroller.

I tend to agree with you in that the ADD & ADHD phenomenon is likely symptomatic of wider issues in the home and in society.

Improving parental care and/or added mentoring should be a foundation for many difficult issues.

Take a kid fishing is still very high on my list!

Backwater Eddy ~ ~ ~><sUMo> ~ ><>

http://home.talkcity.com/ResortRd/backwtr1/index.html

[Jim Carroll]

More reading on the idiotic "Ban Dodge Ball" movement from the usual suspects found here...

http://fyi.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/06/07/dodge.ball.ap/

www.edweek.org/ew/ewstory.cfm?slug=23dodge.h20

www.nwrel.org/nwedu/fall_00/overview.html

I love this quote:

HALL OF SHAME

One hurdle advocates need to leap is the widespread dislike—even hatred—of PE among parents, policymakers, and the general public. Many baby boomers vividly remember the hurt and mortification they endured in punishing games like dodge ball and team sports that pitted athletic kids against clumsy ones, aggressive against timid. And then there was the cruel practice of choosing up sides. Countless children were deeply wounded when team captains passed them over again and again in favor of their more agile peers. "For most of us, the ghost of PE past looms large," writes A. Virshup in Women's Sports and Fitness. "Ask any group of 10 adults for their memories of gym class and seven of them will launch into litanies of frustration and humiliation: the groans when they came up at bat, the failure to do a single pull-up on the annual fitness test, the gruesome uniforms." In her 1999 article, "Why Janey Can't Run," Virshup concludes that "PE seemed less a class than some tribal ritual for jocks to enjoy and the rest of us to endure."


If this kind of thinking continues, God forbid we ever have to fight another war.

In the future I envision this...

"Ok class, today in PE we are going to teach proper yoga simulation techniques and of course if you don't want to participate with the class feel free to take a nap for the hour. We all need our rest. All of you will have your own little cubicle to insure privacy and soothing music for comfort. Please remember not to work too hard - you don't want to strain yourself."

"Also I'd like you to meet our new student Osama. He is from a different culture and we must celebrate, praise, and honor his individuality in our non confrontational manner. I see little Osama has brought his gym bag. What are you taking out of the bag little Osama? Is that a Kalashnikov? How sweet..."

RATA TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT TAT......



For good of country and our collective sanity, I choose the dodge ball, frozen on a cold winter's day, like a brick, to the face...

[Backwater Eddy]

I wonder if the ban will help decrease the numbers of brutal drive by Dodge Ball attacks?

[targa2]

There seems to be a correlation between the times we have an overabundance of psychology grads and the overdiagnosing of new disorders. Same thing is happening with law grads.

[Husky]

Supertroller,

Firstly, let me say you are not ignorant on the issue. Your observations, and some conclusions were interesting. Please realize that , although the teacher was instructed not to send the misbehaving (ADD/ADHD) kids to the office, if he actually "got on their case" he would have most likely been the recipient of the parents calling the administration complaining that he singled out their child. Their child with ADD/ADHD. Now, I have to make certain I don't offend or ignore the parents who are realistic about their kid's limitations, and actually follow through with responsible consequences. I feel Backwater Eddy might very well be one of these parents. The point is, many of the parents are indeed, part of the entire problem. They know their child need more structure, carefully monitored situations, and very clear rules and concequences, yet they expect evryone else (teachers, etc) to do this, while they are often temarkably poor at doing so themselves. These are also the most vocal parents, able to create much strife for everyone over percieved injustices.
This is an ailment that is broadly infiltrated most of our society. It doesn't only affect kids who have learning disabilities, it is seen everywhere from schools, to businesses and their workers, to professional athletes and politicians. We've got some major problems that we better address soon, the conseqences of ignoring them are scary. <<Rant mode off>>

[outdoor fanatic]

BE,
No problem. I stated that I didn't believe it was your intent then and I still don't believe it is now. I think where we all miss the boat is in realizing that medicine is an always changing science. What was once considered wrong may very well be right now. For example, there was a time about 15 years ago if a doc prescribed a beta blocker, it was almost considered malpractice. Today, in certain patients if he doesn't prescribe a beta blocker, it's considered malpractice. Do I believe that medicine can sometimes be written when not necessarily needed? Yes. Do I believe that in some conditions, it's underutilized? Yes. My point is that I believe that the answer lies somewhere in the middle. However, I think the important thing with ADD is that it's being talked about openly and not having a stigma associated with it like depression used to. I remember a time when most men wouldn't admit to suffering from depression because of the associated stigma. I wonder how many committed suicide because their depression went undiagnosed? It's not the same thing, but if you can remove the stigmas from medical conditions, I do believe more people are hurt than helped. Anyways, any time you're in Michigan, give me a call, we'll play some dodgeball and wet a few lines.

[David Anderson]

Backwater,

I've been reading this thread with alot of interest. Although I have no children, I get totally frustrated with the notion of my peers and their kids, and what's wrong with them, and what they are taking. I absolutely agree with your position. As the great Rodney Dangerfield once put it, "As a kid, my dad got sick and tired of me running around in circles............so he nailed down the other foot."

[SUPERTROLLER]

Yes, society in general has definitely gone to the blame someone else mode. They always say it can't possibly be their child's fault or that everyone is always picking on them or singling them out. I think they are only getting the attention their behavior is demanding. If I was teaching I can guarantee they would get all that and more.

[Jim S]

BE,

I commend you for starting a great exchange of opinions. I would also like to offer some perspective, not so much on the dodge ball issue but, the ADD diagnosing/schools/parenting issue.

I have almost 20 years as a research scientist in both academic (large universities) and private industry (major pharmaceutical company) settings and let me assure everyone, the number one priority in science is furthering man's understanding of life on earth. There are countless brilliant minds (not mine) at work looking for that "cure for cancer". The health care profession here in the US is the best in the world but, as many of you know first hand, it has many cracks that allow some (actually lots) to escape quality care and treatment.

Lastly, I recently (18 months ago) decided to take a "sabbatical" from my job in scientific research to stay at home full time to raise my now almost 7 yo daughter and almost 2 yo son. What hasn't changed from when I was in school (I'm 44, went to Chicago public schools)? Besides teachers being grossly underpaid and schools/books severely outdated, mothers are still doing the lion's share of raising the kids. And let me tell you guys, try staying home with your kids full time for not just days or weeks, but months. It's a lot more exhausting than punching a clock. The one thing I can tell you is that, IMO, it is the fathers of this country that need to rethink our role in today's society. Kids today don't have enough positive male role models. I know, dads are sometimes forced to work long hours because women make something like $0.70 to our dollar for the same work, so they don't have time. But, do we really need that new Ranger/Lund/etc? (I own a Lund) Do we need to spend every weekend from April-Nov (at least here in the Midwest) chasing walleyes, perch, bass, whatever to burn off the stress of the work week? Think back to when you were a kid...was your father out fishing tournaments every weekend? Did he have a new rig in the garage/driveway? I'm not questioning work ethic here. I rarely, if ever, see fathers volunteering in the classrooms here. This relates to the dodge ball issue. Do you think it's girls (daughters) who are torturing PE classes with dodge balls? I have seen first hand, even though it's obvious, that the majority of "school bullies" are boys. No, I don't want dodge ball removed from PE. But I do want a kid to be severely reprimanded if he/she is torturing another kid, in or out of PE. There need to be more discipline, in schools, and at home. The best way to do this is take one lunch hour a week/month and volunteer to help out in the lunchroom at your child's school. I guarantee it will be an eye opener. I truly believe that we fathers are the ones who can really start changing things for the better for the children's futures. Good fishing, Jim S.

[jim c]

I consider this a clasic case of FDD (fishing deficit disorder)cure...take two fishing rods and see your boat in the morrning Dr. jim.

[Skillz]

First off: Currently licensed and teaching Physical Education. Also certified to teach to those individuals with special needs (Developemental/Adaptive Physical Education) I use dodgeball as a "treat" for fun/free days. In college, the movement was to get away from DB because of various reasons, including those listed on this post. I agree and disagree with some:

When it becomes apparent that kids are picking on one another, it is time to find a new game. Period. This however should not be a problem if you teach sportsmanship and compassion for your fellow man. For those who are bullies- well, there are ways to modify behavior...

Second: To address the ADD/ADHD issue. Yes, there are very many children being diagonsed with it. Dope em up to make the job easier right??? Wrong. Ritalin and other ADD drugs actually stimulate the Central Nervous System to allow for the child to concentrate better. It does make the child more complacent and able to learn, but will not take the "pep" out of their step while participating in PE classes. Almost every kid is excited to come to PE anyways. Regardless of activity. They just like to move, manipulate objects, run around, etc.

It is of my opinion that DB should be moderated and still played. People can analyze this or that, but the proof is in the pudding. Do the same techniques get used in other sports? Throwing, dodging, catching, etc? You can answer this one for yourself.

3 reasons for getting into teaching: June, July, and August. (joking here people...) How else would I be able to sustain my fishing addiction??

skz


Good Fishin'!!!!

[Walizz 1]

Dodge Ball Smodge Ball. Kids don't even play tackle football anymore. Local baseball diamonds have weeds growing in the infield. Somehow we got into the mindset that soccer is nice and safe and participation in other more traditional sports has suffered. What a bunch of crap. While I'm not proposing the BB gun fights I once engaged in, we have got to let kids be kids and quit trying to make them "little grownups".
I'm not disputing or minimizing ADD and other disorders, I don't know anything about them. I think it's pretty tough being a kid nowadays. We put too much pressure on them to succeed and excell. I think it was a lot easier in the 50's.
There, I don't know if I feel better but a lot of the steam is gone.

[Skillz]

Yep.

skz