Black Powder ?

[jdino]

I currently use the Pyrodex pellets for my in-line. I hear that the American Powder brand or the Jim Shockys Gold is much cleaner. Do those powders come in the pellet form like the Pyrodex or is it in "stick" form? If so, is it better to crush the sticks or just load them like the pellets? Also, can I use them in my flintlock? Lastly, how does the Tripple 7 pellets perform?

[stinkycat]

I have used the Pioneer Powder "Jim Shockey's Gold" in both the stick and loose form. I prefer the loose form I am not sure why. The best part is how clean it burns. 25-35 rounds... no swabbing the barrel and still have no problem loading the next round. Clean up when your done is a snap.

I used to use Pyrodex pellets.... I gave them away.

Good Luck!

[2Labs]

I currently use the Pyrodex pellets for my in-line. I hear that the American Powder brand or the Jim Shockys Gold is much cleaner. Do those powders come in the pellet form like the Pyrodex or is it in "stick" form? If so, is it better to crush the sticks or just load them like the pellets? Also, can I use them in my flintlock? Lastly, how does the Tripple 7 pellets perform?


I was asking myself the same questions last year. I ran across some product evaluations on Cabela's website. You can read the current versions by going to the Cabela's website and typing in "Shockey" for a search key.

I saw some hilarious reports last year on that site about the sticks (I believe the Shockey stuff as well as the American Pioneer Powder came as sticks last year). The users reported burning sticks flying downrange like tracers!! Some of them landed on the grass between shooter and target and laid there smoldering! I laughed so hard at these reports that I was nearly in tears. Plus, the sticks were too wide and would shear down at the muzzle as they were shoved down the barrel, resulting in inconsistent powder loads. I decided not to try the sticks! I don't know if they are still available.

I use American Pioneer Powder for my bench work. It burns clean and consistent and is cheaper than the Shockey stuff. I shoot two Thompson/Center Omega in-line rifles in .50 caliber -- each mounted with a 1x scope for the Wisconsin muzzle loader season. Each shoots 5-shot one-hole groups with 240/250 grain sabots at 50 yards from a bench rest. I clean my barrel between shots with a swab run down and up the barrel just once using Hoppe's Black Powder Solvent and then run with a dry patch after that wet swab.

The Cabela's site gives some negative feedback about the APP, but I have gone through 2 cans of it without a problem. I will shoot just the fffg APP starting with my next purchase because the ffg granules are pretty large and the fffg is easier to handle through the loading equipment.

I use the Triple 7 pellets for hunt strictly for ease of use. I only fire 2 or 3 rounds a season and will put up with the extra fouling in exchange for ease of loading in the field.

Due to granular size-caused spacing, TWO 50-grain pellets of Triple 7 pellets (the pellets are held together with starch which adds volume) matches 90 grains of ffg powder which matches 80 grains of fffg powder. The research I have done online says reduce the Triple 7 load by 10% to give the same load in ffg. Then reduce the ffg load load by 10% to give the same load with fffg. That is how I wind up with 100, 90, and 80 grains in Triple 7, ffg, and fffg respectively. These loads all shoot to the same spot at 50 yards for me.

By the way, the starch used to hold the pellets together is also why the Triple 7 will foul your barrel faster than powder loads! The starch burns and leaves a char coating in your barrel as it exits.

The Triple 7 performs well in my inline but you don't want to use the Triple 7 in your flintlock. Triple 7 says on the box that it is designed for inline models only. I suspect that flintlocks and percussion cap guns won't burn the "off-side" portion of the pellet as clean as an inline would.

Hope this helps.

[jdino]

Been doing some looking around and found a powder called Black Mag3. Has anyone used this powder? Seems like a pretty clean powder. Any thoughts?
http://www.magkor.com/index.html

[2Labs]

Been doing some looking around and found a powder called Black Mag3. Has anyone used this powder? Seems like a pretty clean powder. Any thoughts?
http://www.magkor.com/index.html


Sorry, don't know anything about that. Can't help you. But you might try asking that on a few muzzle loader sites -- that would be my best guess at a place to find input. You ought to be able to find such sites by doing a yahoo or google search, I would think.

[stinkycat]

Zlabs,

I can't imagine "burning sticks flying down range." I have shot plenty of the sticks and they fire just like the loose powder. Never Ever saw anything burning going down range. Also, Shockey's is made by American Pioneer and several years ago it came in sticks as well as the loose form. They both, sticks and loose, are still available today. I would question the reports that you have read as propaganda or extremely dangerous idiots utilizing the powder in those reports.

Matter a fact about an hour ago I just fired 6 rounds each, the sticks and loose Shockey's, and they both performed flawlessly!

IMHO

By the way, never had to swab the barrel once in 12 rounds. Burns clean!

[2Labs]

Zlabs, I can't imagine "burning sticks flying down range." I have shot plenty of the sticks and they fire just like the loose powder. Never Ever saw anything burning going down range. Also, Shockey's is made by American Pioneer and several years ago it came in sticks as well as the loose form. They both, sticks and loose, are still available today. I would question the reports that you have read as propaganda or extremely dangerous idiots utilizing the powder in those reports. Matter a fact about an hour ago I just fired 6 rounds each, the sticks and loose Shockey's, and they both performed flawlessly! IMHO By the way, never had to swab the barrel once in 12 rounds. Burns clean!

Yah, seemed pretty odd to me, too. But there were several such posts on that Cabela's site ... not just from one individual. I showed them to my buddies and we all had a pretty good laugh about them.

I swab the barrel between shots because T/C recommends it in their videos (although they swab with their brand of bore butter -- even with their inline guns). The guys in my shooting club who shoot in muzzle loader competitions swab religiously between shots also (they shoot various types of powder -- I haven't been to a match lately so I don't know which powder prevails now). With APP I probably wouldn't have to, but the swab still comes out a bit dirty -- not nearly as bad as with Pyrodex -- but still dirty enough that I want to clean it.

[2Labs]

Zlabs,

I can't imagine "burning sticks flying down range." I have shot plenty of the sticks and they fire just like the loose powder. Never Ever saw anything burning going down range.


Oh, by the way, I found the posts I was referring to. They are still on the Cabela's site and was listed as part of the 31 posts about APP powder. I don't know why I didn't see them when I checked as part of my first post. Here they are. I copied them for your reading pleasure and convenience.

Some of the posts were knocking the powder as well as the sticks. Like I said, I have used the APP powder without a problem. Haven't tried the sticks.

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http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/1_0/5/rating.gif 1 out of 5
.45 cal sticks, December 13, 2006
By dlwest71 from Iowa



"Simply put don't waste your money!!! Buy Triple 7 to begin with and save yourself a ton of headaches. Like some of the other reviews I had everything from sticks that landed smoking on the grass to over powered charges that felt like they were going to tear my shoulder off. Sticks in the bottle were broken and you could only hope that you had a properly measured charge. Also the tapered square shape of the stick didn't lend itself to easy loading."

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http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/1_0/5/rating.gif 1 out of 5
American Pioneer Powder, December 7, 2006
By TonkaXX from MS



"I have been hunting for years and have purchased several of the "new and best hunting products to come out". In other words... I wasted who knows how much money on stuff that ended up being completely worthless. American Pioneer Powder is my latest "worthless purchase". I have shot Triple 7 pellets and have NEVER had a problem. I decided to purchase American Powder hoping it would perform as it claimed... clean burning, less mess, and easy cleaning. It did absolutley NONE of these. The pellets were all broken up in the container, some of them fell to the bottom of my barrel, the others I had to cram in the barrel with my rod. Sighting in was an absolute nightmare.... I could never even get an accurate grouping to even try to dial my scope in. Using 100 grains of powder and a 250 grain bullet I had several shots that would not even make over 100 yards. They were hitting the ground at about 75 yards. Some of the shots I took would feel like I was shooting a .22 rifle, and others would try and take my arm off. I even had a friend video tape me as I shot to see what was going on. The tape clearly showed the bullet, sabot, and one of the sticks of powder going through the air. I finally got fed up wasting time and bullets, so I reach back in my gun box and pulled out my Triple 7 pellets. I shot three times at 100 yards and all three bullets were in a 1.5 inch group dead center on the target. At 150 yards I grouped 3 shots in a 3 inch circle. All in all....do not waste your time or money by purchasing American Pioneer Powder."

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http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/2_0/5/rating.gif 2 out of 5
American Pioneer Powder Sticks, November 21, 2006
By Percmat from Des Moines, IA



"Being new to Black Powder hunting, I did a ton of research before I went out and bought powder. I had my mind dead set on Triple 7 pellets. When I got to the store I was talked into trying this new revolution in clean muzzlelaoding. It truly is a very clean powder, however getting a consistent 100 grain was near impossible as most of the sticks in the container had piece that had crumbled away. Also the sticks are just wider that the barrell on my Knight Revolution which caused some of the powder to be shaved off. If they could make them fit in the barrell easier and store them in some other container these would be awesome but I think I am going with Triple 7 until they fix these problems."

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http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/2_0/5/rating.gif 2 out of 5
Slow to burn, October 25, 2006
By Oldhunter1941 from Newburgh, Indiana



"I tried the American Pioneer Powder Sticks this summer and found them to work as well as similar products. The clean up was just as advertised. A real dream. However during a shooting contest held by our hunting club I had one shot at 25 yards that bounced off the back stop and left a burn mark on the target,
One of the members was video taping the shoot and the powder stick can be seen flying down range leaving a smoke trail, One other shot at 50 yards caught on video tape also left a smoke trail down range and the bullet hit three inches below the bulls eye.
I would hate to have the buck of a lifetime broadside and have the bullet bounce of his side."

[bpetersen]

Quick question, how does a person measure these sticks. I have never used them.

[stinkycat]

They come pre-measured. The ones I have used were 50 grns per stick. Simple to slide two in the muzzle and a sabot or powerbelt. Seat the bullet properly. Slide in a 209 primer and you are ready to shoot.

[Lundexp]

I know it sounds unheard of but I have experienced it myself. My buddy had just got a new muzzleloader and the shop recommended he use some clean burning stick powder I don't remember what kind and to use 100 grains (2 sticks). Anyways, I watched him shoot it several times and I kept catching something off the side of my eye smoking and bouncing halfway to the target. I decided to try shooting it myself and it certainly was not burning both sticks and it was with 209 primers. In fact it felt like it was firing twice cuz it kicked twice, first when the first stick lit up pushing the rest out and the second kick when the second stick lit up towards the end of the barrel and bounced downrange. I ended up giving him my box of triple 7 pellets and he had absolutely no problems after that. I belive the problem is that there is no hole through the sticks to allow the primer flame to blow all the way through igniting the entire powder like the pellets with center holes do. I recommend triple 7 pellets, never had a problem with it.

[stinkycat]

Lundexp,

I was wondering the same thing. I was thinking the problem could be no hole or old/damp powder. Some of the other guys that did the reviews expressed that the sticks came broken up. That also could be a problem. I believe the volume would change if you used broken pieces vs whole sticks. If I was going to use pre-measured powder I would probably use one of the other brands but I still really like the loose powder of APP.

[R. J. Ziert]

Went to their site to purchase a Lyman Mustang. Good price at $300.00. . . $75.00 less expensive than BPS. Noticed they were charging taxes for Arizona. Also noticed you can save shipping charges by having the item sent to a local store for customer pick up. So, I did it both ways just for fun. Somehow the taxes go up when you opt for customer pick up. Suspicious to say the least

The point? Dont believe everything Cabala's tells you.

Oh yes. I'm dissappointed in the Glendale AZ Cabala's store. Real dog pound compared to BPS in Mesa AZ. The people are OK, it's just a feel. and display, and not enough of diversified stuff. Cabala's is closer to my house. But, I don't really want to go back there.

[R. J. Ziert]

When I was in Cabal's yesterday, I saw a Lyman Mustang on the floor rack where they put items they no longer have in stock at the store. This rifle had a price tag of over $400.00. As I posted earlier the price through the catalog is $300.00. I beginning to think the whole organization is in trouble from a mis-management point of view. Too bad, I always liked them better than all the others.

[2Labs]

When I was in Cabal's yesterday, I saw a Lyman Mustang on the floor rack where they put items they no longer have in stock at the store. This rifle had a price tag of over $400.00. As I posted earlier the price through the catalog is $300.00. I beginning to think the whole organization is in trouble from a mis-management point of view. Too bad, I always liked them better than all the others.


Did you ask someone who worked there why you were seeing what you were seeing? They can't correct a problem they don't know about. Might just have been a clerical error, might have been a typo, might have been any number of things.

I spend literally thousands of dollars a year at Cabela's through their catalogues, online, and through their Richfield, Wisconsin, and Owatonna, Minnesota, stores and have found only a couple problems in 15 years of doing business with them. ALL of those problems were addressed promptly and in my favor when I pointed them out.

For one example, this past week I was in Cabela's in Richfield, Wisconsin. They had a sign saying 25% off select hunting clothing directly mounted on a rack of windsheer camo fleece. The windsheer fleece pants I was looking at were tag-priced at $89.99. They rang up at the register for $74.56. I asked the clerk why wasn't that 25% off the $89.99 when the sign was on that same rack.

She thought about it and said "I don't know. Let me give you the 25% and I will take it OFF the $74.56 price and not the $89.99 tag price" and proceded to do so. She didn't have to do that -- and she just took my word about the 25% off sign rather than having someone go check it out to make sure I was an honest customer (I was and am). And, I pointed out that the price was really $89.99 not the $74.56 that showed on the register -- and she said she would give me the lesser price anyway.

For another example, I was looking for spinners that were sold out at the Richfield store. I asked the clerk when they would be replenished. He said "You don't have to wait for that ... let me order them and send them to your home directly and we won't charge you for shipping." He did exactly that. That same thing happened on another occasion (I don't recall what the purchase item was) and they shipped it to my house promptly at no cost to me.

A 4th example (counting the 2 shipped to my house at no shipping cost to me) is I went to Richfield to purchase a full-zip windsheer fleece sweater in brown. They only had it in gray in the store. The customer service people apologized for only having it in 1 color, ordered the brown color for me and shipped it to my house at no shipping cost. They said they would also get some brown sweaters in stock as a service to other customers. Next time I went into the store, there were about 10 brown sweaters on the same rack as the gray ones.

A 5th example ... I ordered a dry-plus camo parka through the catalogue. It leaked when I stood in the shower in it and I took it too Richfield to return it. Richfield took it back, ordered another like it and had it delivered to my house at no shipping cost.

A 6th example ... I came into the Richfield store looking for a particular jacket in a particular color of camo they had in their catalogue. The didn't have that model/color in the store. I asked a clerk if they had any such items that were not on display. The clerk checked their inventory and found they had none in stock, went through their catalogue online, found exactly what I was looking for, found the same model of clothing on the floor and had me try it for size, and then ordered the color I wanted and had it delivered to my house at no shipping cost.

A 7th example ... I ordered chokes from Cabela's catalogue. These were the kind that had inward pointing teeth to strip the wad from a shotgun shell on the way out of the barrel and supposedly make for a tighter pattern for turkey hunting. I patterned them and they didn't work worth a darn. I was traveling a lot for business at the time and just set them aside and forgot about returning them. A year later I was going to Owattonna to shop and my buddy said "You ought to bring those chokes along -- I bet they will still ake them back." I didn't have the receipt anymore, but I thought ... it was worth a try. I think I had 2 chokes that were about $35 each at the time. The clerk at the Owattonna store said "I can't give you your money back without the receipt, but I know we carry those items -- I can give you in-store credit for the current price." I said, "Fine by me -- I am going to spend it here anway!" She did, and I spent that and much, much more.

These 7 examples have happened over the past 10 years. I have had probably 100+ transactions with Cabela's over the past 15 years. Seems like very good service and customer support to me.

Like I said, if you don't give them a chance to make things right, they can't.

I was, am, and shall remain a loyal Cabela's customer.

[R. J. Ziert]

I couldn't tell them at the time in the store. I didn't come accross the concern until I arrived home and got on the net. I did write to them. Outside of a canned response, they haven't returned my email.

I'll agree, Cabelas has been my favorite for 30 years. I still think they are in trouble.

[PackerSmacker]

When I was in Cabal's yesterday, I saw a Lyman Mustang on the floor rack where they put items they no longer have in stock at the store. This rifle had a price tag of over $400.00. As I posted earlier the price through the catalog is $300.00. I beginning to think the whole organization is in trouble from a mis-management point of view. Too bad, I always liked them better than all the others.

I wish that we had a Cabelas. Many more items than we have locally. Plus I have always wanted to get locked in at night and go fishing in their tanks:raisin: Are they still as busy as they were two months ago when I was down there? They had over 100 people in hunting dept. waiting to be helped with about 15 workers behind the counter.

I was able to purchase some ammo in the store that was backordered on-line for about 25% less in the store.

How far away is the BPS. I might have to try that next time down.

[Tinkerrr]

Guys, I came across this info and found it to be very good. It base is more scientific comparing powders with Chronograph standards and some history.
I've provided two links but I used the terms "Black Power Review" and "substitute black powder tests" and have found much more.
I've used Black Mag for 15 years and loved it. I purchased a large quantity back when I found it and read that there have been problems even with it...
I need more now and see that there is a new Black Mag out but it is only sold from the factory.

I'm trying the Black horn powder and will report my findings soon.


http://randywakeman.com/A2006BlackPowderSubstituteRoundup.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/black_powder_substitute_roundup.htm

[outdoorsron]

Hello: I've been muzzle loader hunting since 1984. I've tried a lot of black powder substitutes. The best one I've found is Black horn 209. You can shoot all day or all season without cleaning your gun. If you want to or have to clean it it cleans up very easy using regular gun solvents.I've shot it over 50 times without cleaning it and it loads the same as the first shot or the fiftieth shot with no accuracy change or difficulty in loading. Check out Cabelas web site and check the reviews on it. You must use a 209 primer. Its more expensive but it goes farther. All I can say is its the only one I will use. Good Luck. Outdoorsron. from the land of the big bucks, Iowa