shock collar

[Deegan]

I have a 16 week old golden retriever I'm training myself. I'm having some trouble getting her to come, and having her lost in the woods doesn't appeal to me. Do these electronic collars work, and are they difficult to train with? At what age should they be used? My dog is young, so am I not giving her enough time, and expecting too much at this age?

[stinkycat]

I am not by any stretch of anyones imagination a Professional trainer but this is what has worked well for me.

I do not know what the age is to take your dog hunting but I start training right away with simple obedience training like Sit, Come, stay and down. I use a whistle all the time and this will help your dog hear even in the woods. I like an electric collar but you must be very careful to read all the instructions. I have seen many dogs unfairly shocked and ruined by bad owners. The best thing I have learned with electric callers is when you first introduce your dog to the collar, set him or her up to fail. Example, I knew my dog could only stay for a certain period of time and then he would get up an roam around. I put the collar on him and told him to stay and I waited. The very second he got up I hit the button and verbally let him know he did something wrong. From that very second he new that it was me that corrected him with a lite shock and verbal scolding. I have never had to use the collar shocking very much because when he wears it he knows that I can reach out and touch him no matter where he is. Most of the time when I do have to shock him it is to break his concentration. He will get so focused on something that just a little stimulation will get his attention.

I am sure there are many guys on WC that have great advise as well as many books.

Good Luck!
Happy Hunting!

[JJ Scully]

The first thing I will say is that your dog is too young for the e-collar. It is a good time to get one and let your dog get used to wearing it for short periods of time to get used to the weight of the collar. My dogs got to the point that they like to see the collar because it means that we are going out for a run. Most of what I have read does not recommend using it until a dog is at least 6 months old. I waited until about 8 months. The e-collar should not be used to train but to re-enforce commands that you are sure that the dog already knows. The first thing that you need to teach the dog is how to turn off the stimulation. I used the kennel command. My dogs sleep in thier crates and know that when I say kennel it is time to get in there. They used to try to take thier time getting there. It only took a couple of times and they understood that they got stimulation with the collar until they listened. They collars do work. You won't find too many pro trainers that do not use them. If you want to leave me your email address I can direct you to alot more information on the subject.

[2Labs]

I use collars on my Labs and have for 15 years now. I learned to use collars from my buddies who run field trial dogs -- and have been very successful in their efforts. I NEVER hunt my dogs without the collars -- one never knows when they will get on a hot scent from a running bird and follow it across a highway.

When should you shock your dog? Shock it when you are absolutely sure the dog knows the command, hears it, and it is obvious that the dog is dawdling or completely disobeying the command. NEVER use it until you have trained that dog in that command and are certain the dog understands. It is an enforcement tool -- not a training tool.

And, only use a power setting needed to get the dog's attention. You don't have to hurt the dog every time you press a button.

How old should the dog be? I don't think this is a relevant question. The question should be ... "Have I done enough repetitive training that I am absolutely sure the dog understands the command?". Age has nothing to do with it. The dog could be a pup or a 5-year-old dog which has come to you late in its life and which you are just now giving it the well-deserved structure it never had.

How well do the collars work? I go to the same fishing camp in Canada every year and have since the early 1990's. The owners have 4 dogs and were having a problem with 2 of the dogs disobeying the "No Bark" command and causing problems. I found a one-transmitter 2-collar setup at a good price from the Cabela's website. I gave the owners a short course in use of the collar. Problem solved immediately! Took just 2 zaps. After that they were very obedient dogs because they knew the owner could "reach out and touch them".

What features do you want in a collar? Make sure the collar has intensity levels that are determined from the transmitter rather than at the collar itself (most models are now driven by the transmitter but earlier models were not and required a plug change at the collar). Make sure the transmitter is small and light -- most models now are -- but the "classics" are bigger, heavier, bulkier, and less convenient than current designs. Make sure the transmitter power will cover the distance you want it to cover (I think mine are good for 400 yards which is more than enough for my use). A "buzz-vibrate" or "sound" feature is a nice one -- you can use that setting instead of a shock as a gentle reminder to the dog (but you can do the same thing with a low-power shock as well so don't let the "sound" feature be the determiner of your selection).

Hope this helps.

[BCLII]

I use collars on my Labs and have for 15 years now. I learned to use collars from my buddies who run field trial dogs -- and have been very successful in their efforts. I NEVER hunt my dogs without the collars -- one never knows when they will get on a hot scent from a running bird and follow it across a highway.

When should you shock your dog? Shock it when you are absolutely sure the dog knows the command, hears it, and it is obvious that the dog is dawdling or completely disobeying the command. NEVER use it until you have trained that dog in that command and are certain the dog understands. It is an enforcement tool -- not a training tool.

And, only use a power setting needed to get the dog's attention. You don't have to hurt the dog every time you press a button.

How old should the dog be? I don't think this is a relevant question. The question should be ... "Have I done enough repetitive training that I am absolutely sure the dog understands the command?". Age has nothing to do with it. The dog could be a pup or a 5-year-old dog which has come to you late in its life and which you are just now giving it the well-deserved structure it never had.

How well do the collars work? I go to the same fishing camp in Canada every year and have since the early 1990's. The owners have 4 dogs and were having a problem with 2 of the dogs disobeying the "No Bark" command and causing problems. I found a one-transmitter 2-collar setup at a good price from the Cabela's website. I gave the owners a short course in use of the collar. Problem solved immediately! Took just 2 zaps. After that they were very obedient dogs because they knew the owner could "reach out and touch them".

What features do you want in a collar? Make sure the collar has intensity levels that are determined from the transmitter rather than at the collar itself (most models are now driven by the transmitter but earlier models were not and required a plug change at the collar). Make sure the transmitter is small and light -- most models now are -- but the "classics" are bigger, heavier, bulkier, and less convenient than current designs. Make sure the transmitter power will cover the distance you want it to cover (I think mine are good for 400 yards which is more than enough for my use). A "buzz-vibrate" or "sound" feature is a nice one -- you can use that setting instead of a shock as a gentle reminder to the dog (but you can do the same thing with a low-power shock as well so don't let the "sound" feature be the determiner of your selection).

Hope this helps.

2 Labs is right one the money. The E-Collar an extension of the leash only. Not for training purposes. Only used to reinforce the command that they already understand. The dog must know why they are being corrected. I personally introduce the e-collar receiver to the dog at 8 mo. Start using the transmitter at 1 yr. I never hunt my 2 Brittany's and soon a German Long-haired Pointer (5mo.old) without collars for the very same reason 2Labs mention.
good luck and have fun!

[SLE]

Lot's of great info give here! The only thing I see that I would caution against is if you purchace a collar with a locaotr/beeper, do not use this as a warning to the dog that the next will be the shock button. This is especially important with pointing dogs, probably not as relavent with flushing breeds. The reason why is with a pointing dog hunting any type of cover where you cann't alway see the dog you want to be able to use that beeper to find the dog, not to scold it! The last thing you want to do is have that beeper telling the dog he's doing something wrong when there's a good chance he's on a bird or lock-up on point and you just can't see him. My particullar coller has three beeper modes, a manual where I push the button and it beeps, a run mode where it beeps continuously every 10 secs or so, and a point mode where it begins beeping only when the dog is on point (this is the best tool I've ever used).

As others have said make the collar a tool and something the dog likes to see come out of the case. My brit see it and knows that we're either going for a run or going hunting, both of which he loves! The only problem I have had is my brit has become very collar smart! which means he does wear it more than I'd like but I have began trying to break him of this using dummie collars and such, it's certanly not the worst problem to have.

[NTD]

They work and are worth the money. I use one with my yellow lab and a German short hair. As stated above use it as an extension of a leash. The dog learns quickly. The model I use has a vibration mode that I use first. I have only had to shock my lab 5 times in 3 years. The short hair has needed it a little more.

[Phil T]

My fertile male Brittany needed a shock collar, so I got a little experience using one.

The first rule of their use is never, never, push the button if you're angry. You've already lost the argument, it's time to go home for the day.
Only use it if the dog know what he is supposed to do and is obviously intentionally disobeying you.
Oh, if his nose tells him to go left, and you want to go right, remember that nose knows more than you. If you disobey a good dog's nose, you need to be shocked.

[A DOG Judge]

I have 35 years of AKC and American Field Bird dog running, training and field trial judging experience with 5 years as a pro and am nationally known with well over 100 placements in the woods, in the WEST and all parts in between. I have owned 12 Labs and a too many to count of English setters, pointers and Brittneys. This includes walking AND horseback handled dogs. I have used a shock collar only twice during that period of time. Once was to break a dog from fighting with his bracemate and another time was to break a dog of deer chasing. Neither dog was owned by me.

Amateur trainers in this day and age tend to demand an instantly trained dog in the shortest amount of time possible and are willing to reach in their wallets to buy a shock collar.


I can do in 4 weeks 15 minutes a day with a 25 foot check cord what your guys are trying to do with a 300.00 E Collar.

Spend 20.00 bucks on the Book, "Best way to Train your Gundog" by Bill Tarrant. Read it and then train your dog.

There are no electronic short cuts in dog training. The good dogs everybody would die for have never been shocked to achieve canine perfection.

If you would like to invest in a true electronic dog training tool, spend your dollars on Garmin's new GPS dog locating/tracker collar.

Any questions before I go and water my Tennesee Walking Horse?

[AllenW]

I have 35 years of AKC and American Field Bird dog running, training and field trial judging experience with 5 years as a pro and am nationally known with well over 100 placements in the woods, in the WEST and all parts in between. I have owned 12 Labs and a too many to count of English setters, pointers and Brittneys. This includes walking AND horseback handled dogs. I have used a shock collar only twice during that period of time. Once was to break a dog from fighting with his bracemate and another time was to break a dog of deer chasing. Neither dog was owned by me.

Amateur trainers in this day and age tend to demand an instantly trained dog in the shortest amount of time possible and are willing to reach in their wallets to buy a shock collar.


I can do in 4 weeks 15 minutes a day with a 25 foot check cord what your guys are trying to do with a 300.00 E Collar.

Spend 20.00 bucks on the Book, "Best way to Train your Gundog" by Bill Tarrant. Read it and then train your dog.

There are no electronic short cuts in dog training. The good dogs everybody would die for have never been shocked to achieve canine perfection.

If you would like to invest in a true electronic dog training tool, spend your dollars on Garmin's new GPS dog locating/tracker collar.

Any questions before I go and water my Tennesee Walking Horse?


Good post, rarely did I ever see a need for a collar in the years we belonged to the Mn springer club.
Al

[lacywbosu]

Fishing, hunting, and yes, dog training techniques can be improved on by new inventions. The old tried and true methods still work, but e-collars are amazingly efficient and effective. Just because you have been doing something that has worked for you the last 30 yrs., does not mean we should close our eyes to new techniques. If we did, we would still be using cane poles and smoke poles to fish and hunt with. I want to also emphasize a point already made. E-collars are not a short cut. Dog must know the command, heard the command, and then the zap if he chooses to not obey. Works for me and more conveient in the field when he is 200 yds away.

[AllenW]

Fishing, hunting, and yes, dog training techniques can be improved on by new inventions. The old tried and true methods still work, but e-collars are amazingly efficient and effective. Just because you have been doing something that has worked for you the last 30 yrs., does not mean we should close our eyes to new techniques. If we did, we would still be using cane poles and smoke poles to fish and hunt with. I want to also emphasize a point already made. E-collars are not a short cut. Dog must know the command, heard the command, and then the zap if he chooses to not obey. Works for me and more conveient in the field when he is 200 yds away.


Read the Original posters thread, he has a 16 week old dog who won't obey commands....and you want him to get a shock collar?????

Pretty obvious we have a untrained dog and a owner who hasn't the experience to train his dog.

A shock collar is the last thing I'd recommend, a basic obedience course with a good trainer is what I'd suggest..imho

Al

[Suzuki]

I trained my dog to stop what she's doing and find me with the beep feature.

[lacywbosu]

Yes and we all know many amateur and pro atheletes that are very successful but trained differently than each other but got great results. We also have a self proclaimed "know it all" that feels everyone that uses a shock collar is an idiot and an amateur with no patience that only wants a quick fix so he abuses his pet. What nonsense. When people don't agree with this wizard of dog trainning, he lashes out with insults and name-calling at these unworthy trainers that simply do things differently. Not that it will matter to you, but to set the record straight for other readers, I can count maybe seven or eight instances where my pup got a small, small shock during this past year. Always when he knew what the command was, heard it, but was chosing to ignore me.
A shock collar could be a very bad thing in the hands of an idiot as could a gun, a car, etc. Don't assume everyone is an idiot because they don't do things your way.

[AllenW]

I think one should never say, never or always..especially in this case.

I think (for whatever the **** its worth) that's it much easier for a person who's not trained to do way more damage to a dog with a collar, than just trying basic obedience.

I also think I can only remember a couple of times when a collar was used where it may have been needed, and they were all because the owner had their own idea's on training and ended up with a dog that was unmanageable.

So...if asked, (insert the fwiw) spend the time to obedience train your dog first, that don't work seek help and they may or may not use whatever they are trained to use.

You all of course can do what ever floats your boat, and I doubt we'll ever settle it here...:D

Al

[baydogman]

Lacywbosu, this is why you shouldn't argue with the ignorant, those watching my not be able to tell the difference. The judge judges field trials, you and I both have seen & heard knuckle heads running around killdeere plains on horses screaming their heads off beause their dogs dont listen. I have even had the arrogant handlers ride though my decoys and through areas where i was training my HUNTING retrievers. eollars are effective, everyone knows this. Ask Mike Lardy, I am sure he has won more ribbons than the judge. If they were not effective the Dahl's would not be published every month in willow press magazines on how to use them. yes they have and will continue to be abused. Also you were correct in your satement that there are no short cuts to training basics. And I appologize for all of the AMATURES who have real jobs and dont have all day to spend training, how dare they go to work. they should never see their families, after their real job they shoud run straight to the kennels. darn them for going to their kids games and coaching their teams. maybe after the basics are taught these so called rookies need an aid while teaching hand signals at 300 yards. does that make their dogs less effective in locating live game, or less efective in finding crippled birds? let me see, no it doesn't. after all isnt that the goal, to find more birds and not to lose crippled birds. we should all save our $300 on collars and let the judge train our dogs for $5000, after all he is the pro giving the advise not to waste our money, isnt he?

[lacywbosu]

The Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act , sometimes called the Pittman-Robisnson Act is supposed to do what the name implys, restore wildlife. The running of horses after field trial dogs should not be supported by federal dollars and an excise tax on guns and amunition. And a public hunting area should not be set aside for the this specific use and not permit the general public from hunting while these trials are going on. Although the act has had several admendments, the new director realizes that we were getting off track from the original intent and said "No" to this unfair use of public property. Why should people not interested in field trials have to build and maintain these fancey club houses on public property when only a few are permitted to use them?
Special Note
My e-collar dog is doing very well and has several retrieves on doves.

[shakiki]

I was just doing a google search for finding another e-collar and came across this topic. I purchased a Petsafe brand collar in December '08 as my then 8.5 month old sheltie would ALWAYS refuse to leave the fenced-in (large sized) dog park. Treats never worked and other people used to be able to grab her so we could leave but it got to the point that I'd had it and that was my only issue with her. I would use the collar on her in the middle of the night to walk her around the neighborhood off of the leash and, of course, used treats quite frequently. If she did something out of line I'd say "no" and she'd get the negative tone and, eventually, would get a mild shock later if she didn't respond to the tone and was still out of line. Once she responded she'd get the positive tone & a treat. After only using the collar a few times all I'd have to do is put the collar on her (not even turn it on) and that was enough of a nudge for her to listen ever since! That was the best $57 I ever spent (they're $145 @ Petsmart & I got mine NIB on eBay) and it allowed me to QUICKLY & EFFICTIVELY break my dog from her stubborn streak without wasting $ for a class where not all dogs are on the same page, etc.

[Super Jigger]

I have a 16 week old golden retriever I'm training myself. I'm having some trouble getting her to come, and having her lost in the woods doesn't appeal to me. Do these electronic collars work, and are they difficult to train with? At what age should they be used? My dog is young, so am I not giving her enough time, and expecting too much at this age?

Back to the original question... For a 16 week old dog, don't worry about the e-collar right now, as the dog is too young. Right now, you need to concentrate on basic obediance, which by the way, you need to instill in the dog manually in order to set up any future e collar training. Buy yourself the basics - leash, check cord, choke chain, whistle, and a training stick. If you are inexperienced, buy a good book and follow the basic instructions, or look into a retriever club or local pro for help. A lot of experienced people will help you if your willing to throw birds for them. Another option is to attend a basic obedience class. I cannot stress how much an experienced person can help you in a very short amount of time in person.

The most important thing you can do is spend at least 10 to 15 minutes a day on your obedience. Keep it upbeat and praise good behaviors for reinforcement. Also - keep your sessions short at this age.

In the short term, if your dog isn't responding to "here," get that check cord and get to work. Say the dogs name, followed by "here." If the dog doesn't respond, say here again as you use the cord to pull the dog towards you. Both you and the dog should figure it out pretty quickly. You must be consistent with your commands so you don't confuse them. Sit, Here, Heel, No, and Kennel should be the staples of your dogs vocabulary for now. Good luck!

[champ641]

I use to breed shorthairs for the field trial's and I have seen way to many good dogs ruined because of them not being used correctly. I would invest in a good quality check cord and whoa post and a little time. and your dog will thank you for it. You still need to have the basic commands instilled in your dog before a e-collar will do a bit of good IMO.

[champ641]

Also make sure only to teach 1 command at a time. I teach all my dogs whistle and hand commands.It takes a little more time but is well worth it in the long run.;)

[Aaron-IN]

Read the Original posters thread, he has a 16 week old dog who won't obey commands....and you want him to get a shock collar?????

Pretty obvious we have a untrained dog and a owner who hasn't the experience to train his dog.

A shock collar is the last thing I'd recommend, a basic obedience course with a good trainer is what I'd suggest..imho

Al


I have to disagree as well. If the original poster had picked a good training program from the start (like Smartworks) that incorporated the e-collar he wouldn't be where he is at today.

[Further North]

If you would like to invest in a true electronic dog training tool, spend your dollars on Garmin's new GPS dog locating/tracker collar.

Agree 100% - the Astro is to bird hunting what the LCD fish finder was to fishing. Maybe even more.

That said, I have e-collars on my dogs also. Don't need them often - probably less than once a year, but when you need them, you need them. There's nothing better than instant correction, as long as it's not over done (too much juice, too ften will ruin more dogs than it will ever help)...and most of the time that correction can be done via the sound on the collar without any current.

[Further North]

Read the Original posters thread, he has a 16 week old dog who won't obey commands....and you want him to get a shock collar?????

Pretty obvious we have a untrained dog and a owner who hasn't the experience to train his dog.

A shock collar is the last thing I'd recommend, a basic obedience course with a good trainer is what I'd suggest..imho

Al

Al's got this - the trainer needs a LOT more training before he's ready to use an e-collar.

Too many people like to turn 'em up to 11 and and stand onthe button when Rover pisses 'em off.

Worst possible thing you can do.

[Steve of Madison]

I think one should never say, never or always..especially in this case.

I think (for whatever the **** its worth) that's it much easier for a person who's not trained to do way more damage to a dog with a collar, than just trying basic obedience.

I also think I can only remember a couple of times when a collar was used where it may have been needed, and they were all because the owner had their own idea's on training and ended up with a dog that was unmanageable.

So...if asked, (insert the fwiw) spend the time to obedience train your dog first, that don't work seek help and they may or may not use whatever they are trained to use.

You all of course can do what ever floats your boat, and I doubt we'll ever settle it here...:D

Al


Allen has the correct track. You have a very young dog that needs to learn the basic's before being introduced to a collar.. I trained Labs and Springers for 7 years at a game farm before e-collars were invented. Like an earlier post stated, 15 to 30 min per day with a 25" checkcord and a whistle will do more training than anything else. What must be remembered here is who is in charge. I can control my Springer with my whistle much better than anyone I know with a collar. While pheasant hunting this past fall my hunting partner and I lost his lab, e collar and all, for 5 hours. All the hitting the button and beeping made no difference. Meanwhile my Springer couldn't understand why we kept calling and blowing the whistle. It showed back up at the truck when we went for lunch and left a hunting coat on the ground.
Granted, some breeds may need more than a whistle, but the collar is not the cure-all that some guys think the are or should be. Just like trying to make certain pointer breeds into close workers, it's just not in thier nature. Spending more time training than hunting in the first 5 years make them good dogs afield. Also understanding that dogs don't speak english, french etc. I have always trained with the whistle and have just 2 commands with it, simple. Besides, who looks more stupid, the dog owner screaming and constantly barking commands while the dog is off doing his thing, or the dog. My money is on the former.