View Full Version : Possible upgrade from 115 4-stroke to larger motor/Should I?
Kingfish
03-10-2002, 06:45 AM
Experience and insight needed! I am narrowing my choice of boats down to one of the following units. A Lund 1700 Fisherman walk-through with a Yamaha 115 4-stroke or a 115 Merc 4-stroke (extra 2-year warranty has got me thinking Mercury very strongly and they are very similar motors) or a Alumacraft 175 Tournament Sport walk-through with same motor. Anyway, I keep looking at the size of these boats and am continually asking myself. Will I be satisfied with the performance and speed that I am going to get out of them? The jump from the 115 4-stroke to the next level of power (4-stroke) would exceed boat limitations (other then Honda 130HP), or should I forget the four stroke and move on up to a good proven 2-stroke engine. (I'am not a tree hugger but it is nice not having to smell that stink from your exhaust). If so, which engine would I get? I would still like to maintain fairly decent gas mileage and don't want to price myself into the poor house. It will be my last boat and don't want to make a mistake I'll be kicking myself in the butt for later.
Could any of you guys hone in on this one and shoot me some thoughts as to which way I would go. The 1700 Lund Fisherman weighs in at 1300 pounds but I'am not sure what the Alumacraft 175 Tournament Sport comes in at, I'am guessing pretty close to the same, if not a bit heavier. I appreciate any help you can give me on this decision.
The Kingfish. May all you fishes be big fishes!
Smitty
03-10-2002, 06:53 AM
I'd guess you'll get low 40's with either of those motors and the 1700 Fisherman. If that's enough to meet your needs it's not really "underpowering" the boat dramatically. If you want more, look at the Optimax or HPDI. Right now 5 year warranty on the Opti from what I hear. With a 135 Opti on my 1800 Fisherman I run 45-47 with a fairly good load, so it would probably push the 1700 close to 50mph.. Oh, and I don't recall any stinky oil/2-stroke smell out of the Optimax. I think the DFI motors are much better at more completely burning the oil.
Good luck whatever you decide..
finaddict
03-10-2002, 07:05 AM
I had a 19' sylvan with a 115 mercury that would run at 45 mph I dont remember the weight but it had to be more. It was plenty of power I dont believe you would be disapointed in the 115. As far as boats go the lunds seem to hold resale value better name,quality etc...
Kingfish
03-10-2002, 07:12 AM
Thanks Smitty. Didn't mean any offence to your motor, just that when your in a bunch of trollers with older motors, the smell sometimes gets unbearable. I'am sure your right about the new motors not smelling. Anybody out there have any idea what a guy can expect for boat speed and performance with a 115 4-stroke hanging on a 1700 or 175 aluminum? Thanks. The Kingfish! Think SPRING.
You might want to take a serious look at the Suzuki 140 4-stroke. My buddy put one on his 1700 Fisherman (to replace the Yamaha F115 that he totalled last Fall...but that's another story). I was very skeptical (I love my Yamahas) but it's pretty impressive.
It's definitely quieter and lighter than my F115. He put a 21" SS prop on it and we were consistently running 45-47 gps with full tank of fuel.
His only concern is availability of parts if something bad should happen.
Good luck.
EsoxProSport
03-10-2002, 08:03 AM
Check Out www.yamaha-motor.com Follow the links to "Performance Reports" You can check out how the F115 Performs on a few Lunds, including a similar Mr Pike 17.
According to an article in Bass and Walleye boats that I read. A boat should have 75% of its rated horsepower at a minumum.If a boat is rated for a 150 hp. the smallest motor would equall 112 hp. Food for thought.
Smitty
03-10-2002, 08:33 AM
No offense taken at all.. More an FYI regarding the differences between the new DFI 2-strokes and the old "smelly" versions. If it were me, I'd probably narrow the choice to one of those (4-stroke or DFI). They're all great motors and the wave of the future.
SnellTier
03-10-2002, 08:47 AM
The TP 175 CS, which I was also looking at as an option, weighs 1415# according to my 2002 Alumacraft brochure. The boat is rated max @ 175 hp.
Don't do it ... wait a season. Yamaha is supposed to have more 4 strokes out for the 2003 season that cover the 115 to 200 gap in their lineup. If the poster who talked about using a minimum of 75% of max rated hp is right, that puts you at 131 hp ... at a minimum. I have had boats which I underpowered ... and they were fine for small Wisconsin lakes, but on LOW ... I just could not put up with it and eventually sold the boat.
Patience can be a virtue in this situation.
I have settled on the Magnum 175 CS and have decided to wait until the 2003 models show up. The boat is rated for 130 HP and while I would probably be happy with the 115, I want the 125 or 130 that will be available soon.
FYI. I hope this helps.
tomd
The article I spoke of in my earlier post is in the March 2002 issue under the shoptalk section.Oddly enough its also regarding a 1700 fisherman,although this boat only had a 90 hp on it. Hope this helps.
Kingfish.
03-10-2002, 12:35 PM
Ya, Finaddict. On the Sylvan, was it a 115 4-stroke you were running?
Thanks. The Kingfish!
Kingfish.
03-10-2002, 12:39 PM
Thanks Smitty. You got the ball rolling and it looks like I'll get all the info I'am going to need. These promos run out the end of March and I'am trying to make up my mind which way to go much more quickly then I make most of my decisions. Your input was greatly appreciated. The Kingfish!
have never smelled anything coming out of my 150 opti. and my gas usage is great.
Kingfish.
03-10-2002, 12:55 PM
Bert, I hear what your saying. The story I get on the Suzuki is the same thing you got. Parts availability. "Bad Storys", super motor, heck of a machine. But it scares the h--- out of you, not knowing about getting repair work if you needed it. I guess they have a six (6) year warrantee on their units. I haven't heard of a lot of dealers carrying them either. Does anybody have any idea how they price out, especially the 140 4-stroke? They must outright fly if their lighter then a 115. I have a hard time believing that it could be quieter. My third favorite brother-in-law has a new yammi 100 and I can't believe how quiet the thing runs. Thanks for the input. The Kingfish!
Kingfish.
03-10-2002, 01:16 PM
Tomd, you sure know how to bring a guy back to total confusion from just slighly confused. I hear what your saying and probably agree with you totally. Now the problem is, do I use common sense or has the bug already taken possession of me beyond my control. The wife has already given me the green light and I hate to wait and perhaps give her a chance to come back to her senses. You know what, you make so much sense that your almost sickning (you sound just like me on most any other occasion). I agree with you, although I havn't heard anything definite on the empty range of horsepower going to be filled. I'am going to another boat show at Cabela's over the next weekent in Owatana, Mn and will have a good chance to look both of the boats over good and perhaps get a few lingering questions answered. I also have heard the same stories about people getting underpowered rigs and kicking themselves after. Well, if nothing else the wife will get in another day or two of shopping and I'll have banked a few more points for later use. My old Alumacraft competitor still runs great, I may just run her another year. Thanks a lot for your thoughts on the subject . I surely do appreciate all you had to say. Here's hopeing for a quick spring and may all your fishes be big fishes. The Kingfish!
I have been in several of the boats - you mention - both the Lund, and the Alumacraft. They have all been powered by the Yamaha 115 hp 4 stroke.
None of the owners have been the least bit unhappy with their motors.
The motors are so quiet at idle - that several times, the new owners - tried to start the engine, when it was already running.
In general - the speed of these rigs run about 40. Some up to 45 some top out at 39.
Since the waters that all of us fish on are big waters - we seldom run much over 35 - due to the waves, and such.
As we all have gotten a bit more gray hair - we have all come to realize, that we really don't need to go 70 mph - for 5 minutes to get to the other side of the lake. Running at 30 mph for 10 minutes is just fine.
I think that that is the issue with some many folks running on many different bodies of water - unless you are a tournament fisherman, or fish the great lakes - it is seldom necessary to run over 30-35 mph on any of the inland lakes.
If you are a tournament fisherman - with money on the line - that is a different story. Then every second - that you are fishing, may be worth several thousand dollars in potential prize money - eithr won, or lost - if you haven't been able to get to a particular spot.
If you boat is rated for 150 and I think that it is, I would strongly consider the 140 hp Suzuki. I think that there is really a bit too much concern about the availability of parts and service. I assume that any dealer that you might buy a motor from - would have a good service shop. When is the last time - that you were up in the north woods, and had a broken motor - that you were willing to fix on vacation?
It does happen, but very rarely - in these days of motors and boats. If you do have the misfortune to take off the lower unit - on a rock, in the canadian wilds - it is quite likely that you are going to get a tow home, and have the boat fixed at home any way. That would also probably be the case, if you happened to have a melt down on a power head, which almost never happens these days of quality motors.
Also, as the popularity of the Suzuki brand grows - there will be more dealerships around that handle the brand.
When you have the Green Light is tough not to GO!!
Either of your boats are great choices, and either of these motors are great choices as well.
I have to agree with you - with the situation with EPA, potential - desire to troll and or run quietly - would make my decision on a new boat - 4-stroke only.
Take care and have fun shopping.
REW
finaddict
03-10-2002, 05:00 PM
No it wasn't the four stroke would that make a diference?
Kingfish.
03-11-2002, 06:44 AM
Finaddict. You know I'am not sure if it would make a differance, maybe someone out there might know. I was just thinking that an older 115 might run out different then one of the new 115 4-strokes.
Anyway. Thanks for the input. I appreciate it. The Kingfish!
jigtugger
03-11-2002, 07:13 AM
I'll throw a little fuel onto your fire of confusion...I ran an Alumacraft TP 175 for two seasons with the F115. At first I struggled to get the bow out of the water on the rig, but the right stainless prop cured that. The motor was awesome, absolutely awesome. Always started instantly, trolled quiet, etc. However, my biggest disappointment with the rig was when I would load it up with 4 guys and their gear, or with two couples and some kids out for fun. That is when the underpower issue reared its ugly head. Tough to plane, and top end really struggled. If you don't plan on loading up the boat to the gills very often, I'd suggest it. But otherwise I would look for a lighter boat or a bigger motor. The lund I believe is lighter so maybe thats your ticket. Also, real trolling speeds for me were 2.7 to 3.2, so if you need to troll cranks/spinners slower than that, be prepared to buy a kicker too.
I feel for you man, when its green you gotta go!
Big Sky
03-11-2002, 08:28 AM
Kingfish,
Not to confuse you with your choice, but I was at the Milwaukee sport show this weekend. I asked 2 Yami rep's there if they were coming out with a 4-stroke in between the 115 and 150 range. They both said no, it would probably be a few years. Please don't take my word for it of course, but you may want to double check their website and fire out an email to them. I too wanted the 115 for my 617, but went with a larger motor. Actually I was surprised that they said there wasn't much of a call for a 4-stroke in that range. Hard to believe with Merc's Opti 135 (not 4-stroke, but EPA approved), Honda's 130, Susuki's 140. Good luck.
Just a note on the Opti 135... I run this motor on my Mr. Pike 17, for what it is worth, I run in the low-mid 50s depending on load. Further, Bass & Walleye boats did a test of this motor a couple of years ago (along with several other motors in this range but not the Ficht 135 as it was not out yet) and found that the Opti 135 got BETTER gas mileage than the Honda 130 4-stroke (faster too).
Andy
Trophysport
03-11-2002, 04:22 PM
Kingfish:
I run an Alumacraft Trophysport 175 with a BF-130 Honda (4-stroke). I bought the unit 1-year used, so the decision was already made for me. My boat runs 41-43 MPH GPS with a standard 17 pitch aluminum prop. The boat is 17"6". 89" beam with full windshield. Boat is approximately 1200 pounds, motor is 500 pounds.
The motor starts and runs great, very quiet, trolls down to about 1.5 MPH GPS.
I have never once wished that I had a 115 instead of the 130. Yes 41-43 is fast enough, and you can't always run that fast, but it sure is nice when conditions are smooth and you can.
Dealers have all said that the Yamaha is much lighter, so you can get as much from the Yamaha 115 as the Honda 130. I would look at the various prop tests, and try and compare them.
Good Luck!
Kingfish.
03-11-2002, 05:22 PM
Thanks Andy for the input on the optimax 135, Thant's really one of the things that I was trying to find out. Just how does the Honda 130 or Honda 115 compare for milage, speed ect. Appreciated! Also do you have any idea how they would compare pricewise. Also any idea how it may compare money wise to the Yamaha and/or Mercury 115 4-strokes. Another thing, would there be much of a weight difference? They have these Honda's priced like gold!
I just have a hard time kicking out that much cash for a bump of 15 HP. Thanks. The Kingfish!
Kingfish.
03-11-2002, 05:32 PM
Trophysport. Thanks for the post. I finally got some info on one of the boats that I've trimmed down to. The Alumacraft Tournament Sport 175. I can't believe how big this thing is. A 96" beam and weighs in at 1530# and is 17'11" long. I'am wondering if I may have to scratch a 4-stroke. I have yet to see one but will this weekend at Cabela's in Owatanna, Mn. this coming weekend. Thanks for your insight! The Kingfish!
Wiley Walleye
03-12-2002, 05:56 AM
I am a little different than a lot of post on this subject. I have noticed that when I am in 3'+ waves the guy with 50 - 100 horse more than me, does not go any faster than I do with a similar boat.
With that said my experience has been with a 110 Evinrude on my old 1800 Lund and now I have the 115 Yamaha, 4 stroke on a new 1900 Lund. I like the boat but I love the Yamy. No cold starts, just a tap on the key, good power, and for me good idle for trolling. I am sure you have that decision. This time and even on the old Lund, I had to make a choice, if I went up another size, I would need a kicker. Some of this involves how much do you want to spend but also it is one less thing in the way and less weight.
I get 40mph by gps with my 115 lightly loaded. You would get even better with the 17'.
Kingfish.
03-12-2002, 06:22 AM
Thanks Wiley! Makes good sense. Nothing but good stuff about the Yammi. Well, I have a week or two to think on it yet. The input for my consumption has been extremly helpful. Appreciated! The Kingfish.
SnellTier
03-12-2002, 07:46 AM
Big Sky,
I find it interesting that they told you there would be nothing "in the gap". They told the dealer I have been talking to that the product would be available this coming season. Of course, he was talking to the design and manufacturing team (they wanted his input as a consultant) Maybe the reps have not been in the communication circle ... who knows??!!
tomd
Wiley Walleye
03-12-2002, 08:06 AM
You are in the same spot I was last year and it is FUN. You ask and read and read. The final decision is yours. Many have said it, A lot will depend on your dealer and the service and accommodations they provide. If you have the time, a lot of the enjoyment is in the shopping. You said this will be your last boat. Just for the heck of it you may want to say it may be your last boat. Never say never, except at home. Anyway, good luck and let us know what you end up with and why. You will be helping a lot of others with your decision because they know you put a lot of time and study into your decision.
Good Luck
Joe
Snoogans
03-12-2002, 08:07 AM
I too was looking at the new Tournament Sports with a close eye.
You may want to check with your dealer on a couple of things before you make the call.
1) Since it is a 2003 model boat, I'm not sure that it qualifies for the "boat bait" incentive, as that says it is only on '01&'02 models-where you can get up to $1000 in accessories.
2) Availability. My dealer ordered a couple of these boats, but does not yet have a delivery date. I have heard that there are not a lot of them around (if any).
I, personally, went with the Trophy 195. Has the 96" beam on it. The 185 just got too narrow in the back.
And, if you are looking for opinions, I would never consider underpowering the boats you reference as much as you are considering. I am putting a 200 HPDI on the new boat, and don't really even like that...as it is rated for 225. But the cost to jump up to an F225 was an extra $2600, and they do not make a 225hpdi.
If you MUST get a four stroke, I would ONLY consider the 140 Suzi. If I were you, I would hand a DFI motor on there (close to the same mpg at WOT as a 4str, same noise at WOT, faster--look at the performance specs on the HPDI's on the Yam website), but I would NOT go more than 25 horse off of your recommended max.
When looking at used boats, I was shocked at how many were significantly under their hp rating. I really did not even consider those boats.
Phil T.
03-12-2002, 10:16 AM
Weight at the transom--it can be a big deal. I'm acquainted with a fellow who traded a 90 Honda for a 130 and didn't get the speed gain he was hoping for. Why? His boat has a relativly narrow running surface at the transom. A relative once owned a Lund 1775 Pro Vee and loaded it down with a 150 OMC and a 4-stroke kicker. It didn't backroll well into any kind of chop. The scuppers in the splashwell weren't big enough to drain all the water that came over the transom. One of his buddies had the same boat with a 90 Honda, and was able to get 42mph out of that rig.
That fairly flat 8' wide Alumacraft should carry the weight of a 130 Honda or 150 DFI engine with a kicker, depending on what else you store back there, like batteries. The Lund is, I think, veed a bit more so will set lower in the water.
The 115 Honda is so much heavier than the 90, and the 90 is one of the quicker 90's built, there is little to gain with that engine unless you need the option of counter-rotating props for an off-shore twin-engine setup. The 135 Optimax is so near the performance of the 150, that with a boat of the weight you are considering, you may as well save a couple thousand bucks. A coworker has an an Alumacraft like the one you're considering, and with the 135 Optimax, it's quick.
Have fun shopping, and comparing. Spend lots of time in the back pages of the brochures where weight and such is listed.
Smitty
03-12-2002, 10:38 AM
Kingfish, at least when I was looking (late 2000), it was another $1,700 to go from the 135 Opti to the 130 Honda. 4-stroke pricing may have changed since then to narrow the gap, but that was my experience anyway.
Good luck.
4Lakes
03-12-2002, 11:21 AM
>Thanks Andy for the input on the optimax 135, Thant's
>really one of the things that I was trying to find out. Just
>how does the Honda 130 or Honda 115 compare for milage,
>speed ect. Appreciated! Also do you have any idea how they
>would compare pricewise. Also any idea how it may compare
>money wise to the Yamaha and/or Mercury 115 4-strokes.
>Another thing, would there be much of a weight difference?
>They have these Honda's priced like gold!
>I just have a hard time kicking out that much cash for a
>bump of 15 HP. Thanks. The Kingfish!
Kingfish, I do not have any current price comparisons as once I bought my 135 I was out of the market and have been since. As far as weight goes I do not know how they compare, but that is probably easily discerned by going to the web page. I know Merc has all of that product info on their page. One thin you need to consider beyond simple HP rating is how is the motor built? Is it a 4cyl or 6cyl? For example, you cannot compare a 115 v4 to a 115 v6. You'd be far better off with the v6. When I was looking at motors, I contemplated (briefly) about going with a 115hp motor. Again, I was going to go with the Merc 115 over the 'Rude as the rude was a v4 and the Merc was a v6. Just remember that a hp rating on the cowl is not 100% accurate. By regulation the manufacture must only be within 10% of the rating on the cowl. Because the 135 opti (115opti too) are actually detuned 150 motors, the actual hp at the prop shaft is only lowered to get the rating legal. The 135 puts out more like 143-144hp I think. This holds true with the Ficht 135s as well. They are also v6s and put out more HP than the listed 135 on the cowl. because the merc 115 opti and 135 opti are detuned from the same 150 motor, they weigh essentially the same. I do not however know how the 115 4-stroke compares to the 135 opti though.
Andy - 4Lakes