View Full Version : Technical info on Genetron units?
I've been seeing a lot of anecdotal information posted lately about Genetron sonar units. I'm looking for technical specifications on the unit(s). I haven't been able to find anything anywhere. I'm interested in the pixel counts on the CRT display(both vertical and horizontal,) # of grayscale levels (which a valid spec even though they may have "green screens")and the screen update rate (how often a new piece of information is sent to the screen....a number that is dependant on the depth being observed. Transducer frequency is also important as in transducer power (either RMS or Peak).
Please humor me. I'm an engineer and have designed systems over the years using both CRT and LCD technologies. I know how they work and what their capabilities are. I don't work for and I'm not sponsored by any of the sonar manufacturers so I'm not trying to blast anybody or put anybody in a better light. Some of the recent claims for the units appear to be "bending the laws of physics."
I'm just trying to get some concrete factual information.
Thanks (not only from me but I'm sure from others who are interested)
lund man 3
03-13-2002, 04:16 PM
Vern, I am hoping you get some information on this i also would like to know. Knudson where are you
Please do a search in the archives. This topic (technical specs of Genetron screen...) was hashed over in intense detail within the last few months.
Best Regards,
FJH
Chairman
03-13-2002, 05:26 PM
All this technical stuff means nothing. Ask the guys using them if they work and they will all say yes. Sometimes too much information can be hazardous. Most of us don't know anything about electronics other than to turn them on and adjust them for the best picture.
Engineers on the other hand need this information to talk around the water cooler about.
The top pros in the country BUY this unit so that says it all. Ilove mine and have had one since 96.
Buy it, bolt it on and go fishing.
have a nice day.
Chairman
NPAA #6
I agree, best unit available bar none
stevefellegy
03-13-2002, 06:09 PM
Hey Vern,
First, I will agree with The Chairman, that if the results are what they are on the water, proven by creditable users, than that should be enough.
I also question your motive here, since there has been a "slight" history of conflict in this regard, on WC, beyond factual, technical, and on the water information. I hope that isn't the case here, but the remark, within minutes, following your post, tells me different.
Now, I of all people won't claim any "engineer" level knowledge of Genetron. I'll leave that up to Mr. Knutson. But I, again, question the validity of your interest, since, being a self proclaimed engineer involving crt's, because you use the term pixels ,when crt terminolgy is surely well known as "dots". In the process of learning how my Genetron operates, I also will remind you, that "tranducer frequency" , in crt lingo, is "refresh rate".
I hesitated to respond here since I surely don't want to see this thread end up, where the same issues were, well intended, brought up several weeks ago. Let's talk facts and leave it at that, PLEASE.
Again, what happens during actual on the water walleye hunting is what counts when discussing graphs, not necessarily the very technical reasoning behind the machines. But that said...any fair question deserves a fair answer.
I did a search and determined that I didn't really want to wade thru about 200 messages that only contain bits and pieces of info. It would really be nice to have the info in one place.
Wally Walleye
03-13-2002, 08:55 PM
I for one would also like to hear and or see what the technical specifications for the Genetron are. What's the big secret anyway? I feel this in addition to on the water experence are the true measure of what a certain piece of equipment is truely capable of.
Wally
Ernest P Worrall
03-13-2002, 10:15 PM
Hey Vern, just call Genetron directly, Dick will be more than happy to explain anything to you. I do not know the number, but it is in several past threads. I must also preface this by saying I do not own a Genetron, nor do I work for them in any capacity. I have learned more about the Genetron units from reading posts here than I ever could by owning one. As to those who demand answers and use innuendo, what is your real beef? Dick and Genetron comes here time and time again and answers all questions and defends all accuzations. They are a small company and make a fixed number of units per year. I find that refreshing. Dick deals directly with the people who purchase the units, I like that too. You cannot directly compare a Genetron to ANY other locator. They are different. You cannot drown them or beat the snot out of them running 40 mph in 5 footers. They are tough but not indestructable. As I say Vern, and I am not bashing you, just trying to help, the contact info for Genetron is there. Do take a moment and look for it. Dick will help you.
Twice in your post, you question my motives. If you care to go back into the archives, you'll notice that I was not part of the "hot threads" about the Genetron units that happened some time ago. After searching the archives, I didn't find a single posting that provided all the info that I requested. Asking a simple question like "what are the technical specification of a particular unit?" should be easy to answer and most people would believe to be valid. In that past 10 years I've purchased 6 sonar units (including ice fishing units) I'm sure that I'll buy more in the future.
You and others tell us that we should simply take the "word of creditable(your spelling) users and that should be enough." Whoa, what a concept. Rather that looking at the unit and it's specifications, now I have to research the background of some users to determine if they are credible. How do I know that the "credible users" really know what they are doing. ( I have seen more than one person look at a CRT sonar unit, tell me that little bump is a fish on the bottom. I look into the water and see a sunken log.) I don't know who you are, you don't know who I am. Maybe you have more experience than anyone else .I don't know. Measuring someone's experience is a very subjective exercise. I want some hard facts. I never said the unit was bad, I wonder whether or not the unit has the technical capability to do some of the things that have been claimed. Whether or not any product has merit should be a function of the product rather than who "endorses" it. Isn't the easiest way to find out about a product is by looking at the product directly or its specs?
You refered to my using the word "pixel" when speaking of CRT technology and implied that it meant that I don't know what I'm speaking about.. True, CRT specs talk about dot pitch when refering to the smallest size "dot" that can shown. A pixel is defined as "a picture element." In two data books in my library, (Intel and Motorola....most people have heard of them), I checked the specs on video display controllers (the IC's that put the information in a format that the CRT can use) and found that both use the word "pixel". If you are running some form of Windows, right click you mouse on your wallpaper. Check under properties, you see the "setting" tab. There's that magic word...pixel. I wanted to know how much " picture information" the CRT can display. My usage was correct.
"Self proclaimed engineer" ..... Do you want me to scan my engineering degree diploma (MS) for you to look at? Been doing this for 22 years....
I assure you that the statement you made: ' " tranducer frequency", in crt lingo is refresh rate" ' is not true. (Does making an erroneous statement like that make you not a credible user?) When a sonar transducer produces the "ping", it is generating a modulated waveform of a very short duty cycle. Most units operate around 200 khz. Refresh rate on a CRT refers to how often the electron beam updates the information displayed on the phosphorus before it fades away. Usually that happens between 30-60 times a second. What I want to know is how often a "ping" is generated and how often is that information displayed. Some units generate several "pings," average the data and then display it, resulting in a lag between what is displayed and what is actually under the boat. Some Lowrance units updated the display 6 time a second. The Vexilar Edge LC-507 claimed a sweep rate of 30 pixels per second. Pinpoint claims 60 pixels/sec in 10 ft of water. Depth has to be considered because the "ping" has to make the return trip. The deeper the water the lower the update rate.
Please, when somebody ask for some real, measurable information give it to them. That is all I asked. I just want to know if the unit can do what people claim.
Thanky for your post.
It seems that several people would like the same info that I'm requesting. It would seem to be easier to simply post it in a message for everyone to see. That you save money for us all. I suppose that I could call Genetron on the phone (my nickel) and then post it. But what is wrong with asking the questions that I did and expecting the answers in a short posting.
Like someone said lets deal with the facts.
Why did a smiley face appear in my original post? anybody know?
stevefellegy
03-13-2002, 11:03 PM
Vern,
First, please accept my sincere apology for conveying any ill will toward you. My intentions have been, and always will be, nothing but positive in offering my viewpoints on fishing related stuff, here and elsewhere. The past history and the fact that "ghostbuster" appeared,got me off on the wrong foot. As I said, I have no business talking in technical terms on these units,though I do listen and try to comprehend what I am taught in this regard, but DO have more experience using these units than almost anyone else in the walleye world.(1200 hours per year) So that said, as I pull my smelly foot out of my mouth, any questions you might have in regard to the Genetron and how it performs on the water, let me know. ( thanks for pointing out my spelling. lol) I will try to contact Dick and have him answer your technical questions. Good luck!!
sf@mlecmn.net
Shellback
03-14-2002, 03:57 AM
Maybe Genetron is comfortable with business as it now stands. They seem to be sold out for the years production already. Perhaps he feels if had a big website with all the info and was flooded with orders or whatever it would over burden him, when he is happy with the way things are. Hey, he's sold out for the year and now he can go fishing! What more could a man ask for!
SUPERTROLLER
03-14-2002, 05:37 AM
Vern, I found nothing in your original posting for anyone to argue with. It seemed to me to be a simple request for information. I think what happened though is that because of what flared up from the past postings of such information, is that you kinda hit some raw nerves. They are afraid that the same lunatic fringe will jump on this thread and get Dick K. all riled up again. He is, I feel, a real sincere gentleman that has only been trying to help answer questions pertaining to his products. What happened was it got turned into a Genetron bashing thread and we sure don't want to see that revisited. Please try to understand where these guys were/are coming from. Give them all the benefit of the doubt. I think Steve was trying to assure you they are a dependable unit, he just isn't the technical expert with the exact answers to your questions. Hopefully someone with the right answers will come through for you. I think they should.
(I'm not affiliated with Genetron.)
Juls_WI
03-14-2002, 05:53 AM
Nothing wrong with asking Vern. That's what this site is for.
As for the smiley face, you must have hit the proper combination to create them. If you look at the left hand side of a reply window, you will see "Smiles lookup table". There you will see the combos that make up the different faces. At the bottom of the window you can put a check mark in the box that says you do not wish to use emoticon icons in your message.
Juls
fishy1
03-14-2002, 06:02 AM
I'm am not going to baby sit a bunch of arguing but would like to know whereyou can buy these genetron units and are they user friendly.
I'm illiterate and cant see very well so I do things the hard way if I cant figure it out in tenmin. its not user friendly and I'll stick with LOWRANCE
curt quesnell
03-14-2002, 06:03 AM
Why, if you want information about Genetron would you post
here instead of calling Genetron with your question. Your
question has been answered here a few times already.
If you are an engineer you are looking for the best way to get
the right result. The telephone is the best way for you to
get the result you seek. Also Genetrons Email is all over those
threads in the archives. If you dont want to look for the answer
call or email Genetron and have a party.
Curt Quesnell
Wally Walleye
03-14-2002, 07:44 AM
I agree with Vern and a few others that it would be really nice to see the specs posted on the board. No one is trying to bash anyone or any product God knows it would be really nice if all the manufactures would give this kind of data then we'd all be able to really compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I follow most of the forums on this board several time a day and really do appreciate it when a rep from a company responds here. I have aske several questions about Pinpoint equipment and have had this board mentioned when THEY contacted me to address my concerns and problems.
Reels
03-14-2002, 08:03 AM
Why wouldnt he ask here?? Dick has never been shy about answering questions on the board, plus here, we get valuable feedback from people who actually use the units. Almost every post on the board is asking questions about products.
Maybe Im missing some hidden agenda here, but at face value, it seemed innocent.
<{{}}><
Ernest P Worral
03-14-2002, 08:12 AM
Hey Vern, Dick knutson from Genetron has posted all this info many times before, and he probably will again. If you want to read much about the Genetron units, try the search feature on this message board. Click on the search link at the top of the message board, right above the red line. Then narrow your search to the general discussion board and type either GENETRON or DICK KNUTSON in the topic box. also enable the archive to be searched. Give it a minute and you will have more info about genetron than you ever imagined. "Y'all be cool" {Eddie Murphy}
Marble Eyes
03-14-2002, 08:15 AM
After reading these threads and posting my own questions, I am beginning to think that perhaps the thing to do it for someone to run a in the water test with these things (refering to the top 6 Sellers)IN a controlled area. Much like the Precision Trolling book was developed.
Using markers to mark the spot, and Using different sized objects that will read on a fishfinder like a fish placed at different depths, over different bottoms.... I would think that with a little time it would be rather easy to compare units in water that is less than say 50 ft.
Okay so who is retired and likes a challange? :) Or is my idea all wet?
Texeye
03-14-2002, 08:32 AM
I agree, it would be nice to have some of the technical info.Lowrance and some of the other manufactures give some of this info.with their literature.I had never even heard of Genetron, much less the difference in operation till a month ago.I have sent two different e-mails,one a few weeks ago and one a few days ago so maybe Genetron will send some info.I think some of you want to keep it a secret!I know how some of those walleye guys and gals are. Thanks to some of you for your informative posts.Keep it up!
RANGER
03-14-2002, 08:40 AM
Vern,
I'm with you on this and I see good reason to ask this question and I feel this is an excellent board to do so on!
If nothing comes of this maybe this thread will help you somewhat:
http://www.walleyecentral.com/cgi-bin/dcf/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=14485&forum=generaldiscussion
It gets going around post #6. ;-)
Not all of the answers are there but you can glean some valuable info from the various discussions. I too, am VERY interested in specs on products I buy. I want to do comparison shopping on the SPECS so that I'm comfortable with my decision process. Particularly this year because I will be buying a new SONAR for my boat - guaranteed! I'm driving over to the Cleveland Sportsmans Show for this possible purchase as well as other things!
I listen to and admire a lot of the folks on this board but when it comes down to rug cutting I have to KNOW what I'm dealing with in my own mind!
Sparky
03-14-2002, 08:58 AM
I first heard of Genetron on this board also. I had used a couple of LCD units and fished off many other boats with them. I had also used a paper graph and bought a brand new one at a swap shop. A friend had a CRT unit, not Genetron, and I liked what I saw when running with a group of boats. I started looking and asking about different units. With the information provided on this board and many calls/emails to Dick I purchased a Genetron. I have very pleased with it's performance. I especially get a kick out of going back and picking up the fish others told me "Weren't there!". It sometimes pays to have objective witnesses. I purchased my second unit this winter to rig a new boat for me. I'm not spnsored or paid. I'm a whenever I can fisherman who appreciates a product and company that performs well. Yes, they aren't inexpensive, but picking up fish where they aren't supposed to be is priceless. If you have fishing buddies like some of mine you understand completely. The enjoyment is in the game.
Vern, did you find the archived posts regarding "dot pitch" for the GENETRON? As I said, this was covered in great detail some time ago. I seem to remember comparisons of the pixel count of the Lowrance X-15? with the dot pitch of the GENETRON....
Best Regards,
FJH
GENETRON
03-14-2002, 09:39 AM
VERN. I GUESS I CANNOT BE GONE FOR MORE THAN A DAY ON THIS WEBSITE. I BELIEVE YOU HAVE E- MAILED US FOR INFORMATION AND THAT HAS BEEN SENT. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT KIND OF ENGINEER YOU ARE AND IN NO WAY DO WE WANT TO IMPUGN YOU OR YOUR EXPERTISE.YOU DO COME ACROSS IN YOUR FIRST POST AS RATHER HOSTILE,INFERRING THAT WE ARE SOMEHOW"BENDING THE LAWS OF PHYSICS". LET US ASSURE YOU THAT WE ARE NOT. HOWEVER WE FEEL THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO INFRINGE ON OUR "INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS" BY TRYING TO GET US TO DIVULGE WHAT AND HOW THE GENETRON IS DESIGNED. HOWEVER IN THE SPIRIT OF BEING NON CONFRONTATIONAL WE WILL ANSWER MOST OF YOUR QUESTIONS THAT DO NOT INFRINGE ON TRADE SECRETS. YOUR E_MAIL INDICATES YOU ARE IN THE HEATING AND AIR CONDITIONING BUSINESS AND I AM SURE YOU DO NOT TELL YOUR COMPETITION EVERYTHING YOU KNOW AND HOW YOU APPLY IT. SO AGAIN IN THAT SPIRIT WE WIL ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS.
1 WE HAVE IN MANY PRIOR POSTS STATED THAT THE CRT DOT PITCH ON THE GENETRON SCREEN IS .020. THERE IS APPROXIMATELY 128 DOTS PER LINEAR INCH.
2.YOU USE THE WORD "GRAYSCALE" IF WE ARE TO PRESUME THAT THIS MEANS LEVELS OF TARGET STRENGTH RETURN AND THE CAPABILITY OF THE PROCESSOR TO INTERPRET THOSE RETURNS THE ANSWER IS 16. WE USE THE WORD "QUANTIZATION" TO DESCRIBE THE ABOVE FUNCTION. MOST LCD TYPE UNITS HAVE 4 OR LESS QUANTIZATION LEVELS. A GOOD SONAR OPERATOR CAN LOOK AT THE DIFFERENTIALS ON THE SCREEN BETWEEN LEVELS OF GREEN SHADING( WE USE A GREEN PHOSPHOR IN ORDER FOR THE SCREEN TO BE SEEN IN DIRECT SUNLIGHT) AND TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FISH AND OTHER STRUCTURE MOST OF THE TIME.
3. THE GENTRON INCORPORATES A DUAL BEAM TRANSDUCER SYSTEM USING TWO SEPARATE TRANSDUCERS( IF YOU KNOCK ONE OFF YOU STILL HAVE THE OTHER. THIS MAKES THE SYSTEM MORE BULLETPROOF) BOTH TRANSDUCERS OPERATE AT 120KHZ. ONE TRANSDUCER IS A NARROW CONE AND THE OTHER IS A WIDE BEAM. AGAIN NOT TO BE CONFRONTATIONAL BUT THE KHZ RANGES VARY WIDELY IN TRANSDUCERS FROM THE SINGLE DIGITS TO THE HIGH 400s DEPENDING ON THE JOB TASK.
4.THE "CRT REFRESH RATE" IS NOT THE "TRANSDUCER PULSE RATE" AND IN YOUR LATER POST YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. THE PULSE RATE ON THE GENETRON IS VARIABLE DEPENDING ON DEPTH. WE WILL NOT DISCUSS THE NUMERICAL RATE BUT LET US SAY WE SAMPLE VERY,VERY, FAST. THIS SAMPLING SPEED IS ALSO MANUALLY ADJUSTABLE BY THE USER IF THEY CHOOSE.
5.THE GENETRON HAS VARYING POWER OUTPUT RANGING FROM 15 WATTS RMS IN SHALLOW WATER TO 150 WATTS RMS IN DEEPER. THIS IS AN AUTOMATIC FUNCTION BASED ON DEPTH.
HOPEFULLY THIS WILL ANSWER SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS. DICK KNUTSON GENETRON
Jesse-WI
03-14-2002, 09:41 AM
The screen is a 7inch diagonal high resolution green phosphor CRT screen with dot pitch of 0.20 Dick has stated his people give the unit a vertical pixel count of 768.
He has inferred that his unit is targeted at the 90% of fisherman who fish in 100 feet of water or less. He has also stated he believes excess power spooks fish. Since he believes power spooks fish, they have spent more time producing a product that has better capabilities at picking up smaller strength return signals. They prove this capability by demonstrating their product will work in air and that only 15 watts of power are necessary in shallow water. As such, comparing the power of his unit to a Lowrance unit with 1000 RMS peak that will reach down to 2000 feet, does not prove much.
He has only stated that the refresh is variable and depends on the depth of the water, with shallow water happening very fast. He has listed no maximum value that I have seen. Since everyone needs to deal with the speed of sound traveling through water, the refresh rate can be fudged if you so less detail so additional measures would be needed to prove anything.
It would seem that without baselines a Genetron unit would be hard to compare to other units that advertise based on numbers that do us little good.
As an example, at 10', 20', 30', 40' etc, how much RMS power is needed to show "X" amount of detail. As walleye fisherman, our biggest concern is walleye on the bottom. Assuming that the prior condition is meet, what is the fastest theoretical refresh rate possible? How does the unit compare to this number?
This is my view of the posts Dick has offered to this point. It would seem he has provided plenty of information.
stevefellegy
03-14-2002, 10:10 AM
Hey fish hunters,
First, thanks Dick, for allowing me and others to learn more about Genetron in post #26.
To any of you who might have any questions that need more explaining or clarifying in regard to "on the water" real world info about Genetron and my experiences, let me know.
I would be glad to talk on the water shop.
sf@mlecmn.net or access my phone # through the NPAA directory.
RANGER
03-14-2002, 11:02 AM
I thank you, Dick, for again stepping forward to address questions here at WC. There may be more questions from VERN and others but the fact that you stepped up to the plate is greatly appreciated!!
THANK YOU!
Vern,
Dick provided a response and Jesse pretty much echoed the same response. Personally I don't think it answered all your questions and probably never will. And I agree that some of Genetrons claims are either hard to believe or have no relevence but sound impressive to the easily impressed. Their main claim to fame from what I read is mostly satisfied customers and that's not a bad thing to be known for. I don't own a Genetron and probably never will. Mostly because the sonar brand I choose has some of the best customer service and customer loyalty I've ever experienced with a consumer product. Stupid as it may seem, that's my reason and it's a ##### good sonar too.
Certainly the specs, you refer to, appear impressive to say the least. I'm sure there are many more you could request. But what is their comparative significance in your opinion or knowledge? No insult intended, but do you even know what makes those specs so important for finding fish? And how one recognizable spec may effect a lesser known spec?
I only ask because I used to sell stereo equipment at a time when Watts per Channel and the lowest Total Hamonic Distortion (THD) percentage was the A-Typical engineers determination of sound quality. I'd sell them Yamahas or Pioneers every time. By far the worst sounding amplifiers in the store in those days but they had the most watts and best looking specs. But that's what appealed to the engineers and they wouldn't consider anything else. "Who cares what it sounds like, the specs say it must be good." And I'm sure they were overall happy with their horrible sounding stereos. But if someone wanted the best sound quality based on sound quality, I'd sell them a Harmon Kardon or Dennon. Almost unheard of brands in those days. Today HK is definitely not what is used to be.
Anyway, what most engineers didn't know or care about was THD was electronically controllable. But the lower THD got the higher Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM) got. And that distortion was much more audible and displeasing to the human ear than THD. Yamaha and Pioneer never listed TIM percentage on their spec sheets. Watts per channel was and still is a worthless specification that means nothing with regard to sound or power but impresses the kids. The best amps available costing tens of thousands of dollars are rated between 25 and 100 watts.
My point is to you, Dick, and anyone else that talks numbers is what relevence do they truely have when we're trying to find a fish? I could care less if a sonar senses a target in mid air at 15 watts, mine does that too. In my worn out opinion (IMWOO), a balance of specifications needs to be achieved in a sonar to make it work well with it's own components, what ever the specs may say. Otherwise you could have a sonar with more pixels but no sensitivity for target separation. More sensitivity but lower signal to noise ratio. Etc. Etc. Etc. I've briefly owned and been disappointed with a couple brands with some exceptional specifications and pixels out the wazoo.
What's become very clear to me this past month is Genetron has many loyal, satisfied customers vs. very few dis-satisfied. You can't put a spec on that. A statistic, an opinion, but no spec that means anything.
Texeye
03-14-2002, 11:57 AM
Dick,I just want to clarify I am not Vern.I do own a hvac business and have sent you e-mails requesting information on Genetron.I see in your response to Vern it has been sent.Thanks!
david anderson
03-14-2002, 04:10 PM
Vern,
You have started an excellent post and comments from Dick, Jessie, and KP are both enlightening and useful. In the end the proof is in the pudding. Check back on previous posts regarding RMS vs Pk/Pk ratings of various sounders and I believe that you recognize that it's all a game of one upmanship rather than real useful data. If Genetron publishes 15 watts at a certain depth and Lowrance says 1600 pk/pk, which looks better? With the exception of a few people like yourself, someone could easily make the wrong decision based on who writes their spec better. Genetrons by no means is the very latest in microprocessor technology. It's principles of operation are deep rooted in how signals are processed, not how it compares in a spec race with an X15. Given that, how does one quantify those advantages against the competition in the form of a spec that you could understand and apply. Yes Genetron will mark a fish on the bottom better than anything out there. As a fellow engineer that helped develop the output stage of the Zercom Clearwater Classic transmit circuit, I certain don't know you could quantify that except with actual experiences. Besides, I doubt very seriously that any of Genetrons customers have purchased units based on the specs. Agreed the specs are a useful tool, but in the end you are not going to buy one because you think the they have the right frequency, refresh rate, variable pulse from x usec to y msec, 16 gray scale, 80,000 pixel, and it'll clean your fish if you insert it in the back 2 minutes after you shut it off. You will buy one because you want one, regardless how it stacks up to a Lorwance or Sitex on paper.
GENETRON
03-14-2002, 07:22 PM
LETS SEE NOW. TURN THE UNIT OFF FOR 2 MINUTES, INSERT FISH INTO BACK OF UNIT FOR CLEANING. HMMMMMM.THIS COULD BE DONE!!!!! DAVE YOU ARE BRILLIANT. LOL,LOL,LOL, LOVE YA!!!! DICK
The "real" Vern
03-14-2002, 07:50 PM
Thanks for responding. If you read my post carefully, I didn't say that Genetron, as a company, was "bending the laws of physics" but some of the posts of extrememly happy customers might be attributing abilities to your unit that it may not be able to do.....like cleaning fish lol. I was heavily involved in the medical electronics field for many years. It used to drive me nuts to be in our booth at a trade show, have a MD come up to our booth and try to buy our instrument for a particular application that it could in no way perform.... Where did they get the idea that it could do that? I'd ask... From another MD buddy who made the claim...
I have not emailed you so far so If someone purports to have done so, they are playing games on both of us. I'm am not the HVAC person....I think that person did place a follow up post.
I will print out your responses and get back to you shortly.
I'm not trying to get any intellectual property info from you. I believe that any information that can be acertained by using or looking at the box doesn't fall into that category. Many of the specs that I asked for can be easily determined simply by looking at a unit. I've never seen one.
Later
Thanks for the summation. You provided most of the information that I asked wanted.
david anderson
03-15-2002, 09:18 AM
I'm packing it up today! Just make sure I have it back before opener!
Did you work with Duane Cummings (of Marcum) on that. They're just down the road from me....I live south of Elk River. I think they are still in Monticello
Yep specs can be very misleading at times. But what to do.... Pretty pictures (of products) is how they sell lingerie:)
It would be nice to have a common set of meaningful specs on sonar units, but until that happens it makes sence to try to get the bare minimum if possible.
Stereo equipment and specmanship is another area where manufacturers of good equipment need(ed) to explain their products and publish the specs that truly make a difference. In the brochures, they can easily show why looking at Watts/THD alone isn't the best indicator.
I'm sure part of the sales problem was that at a 3 am party, after you're pretty hammered, the only spec that matters is how loud you can crank it up to compete with the throbbing headache soon to come......
The people who made the Audio Research, Mark Levinson, etc (are they still in business? ) $10,000 per channel amps usually didn't sell to that portion of the market. Their literature usually "gave" the a better view of important specs.
Yes, but if they start producing 10,000,000 per year their costs go down and then we can all afford one......
David Anderson
03-15-2002, 11:17 AM
Vern,
Yes, I worked with Duane on this. I am a transformer designer/manufacturer and he was having problems with the output isolation transformer between the drive and the transducer. We made a proto, and built 15,000 pcs for their initial build. I am just across the river from you in Dayton. If you want to look a Genetron close up e-mail me david.anderson@precision-inc.com.
I would be happy to show you one or answer any questions you might have. Always have time to talk fishing!
bob oh
03-15-2002, 12:45 PM
Curt, I would have to ask you why he would not post here. Isn't that what the board is all about. Have you ever had asked someone why they would post here about specs for Garmin, Lowrance or Pinpoint? It happens all the time and most of their specs are available on web sites (oops, sorry forgot Pinpoint isn't) :-)
I think everyone's just a little edgy cause their has been some heat on this topic.
Don't you think I had extensive and frustrating discussions with engineers who thought they knew what specs were important and what were not. I think most of them did not understand what I was talking about but couldn't admit it because they were "Engineers". They also did not have respect for the long haired stereo salesman, who at the time was studying to be the engineer I am today.
My bottom line on ALL these sonar threads over the past month is various specs or capabilities are important according to the interpretation most comfortable, understandable, or usable to each individual. What a mouth full.
To answer your other question, Audio Research, Mark Levinson, Conrad Johnson and many other audiofile type equipment are still being made and enjoyed by those that can justify the cost. The $10,000+ amp example was an extreme to make a point. I used to demo a 20 watt per channel Harmon Kardon against a 100 watt per channel Pioneer all the time and the HK always sounded better with more powerful bass. Louder? No. In most cases, the perception of loud volume is usually caused by distortion. 1 watt of distortion will have the impression of being louder than 10 watts of clean sound. What does this have to do with fishing? Unless you'll permit me to talk about the stereo on my boat :) Hey Dick! Does Genetron make a boat stereo to match the fish fillet, cooking, sonar?
Thanks. Sent you my phone number via direct email.
I saw that the Mississippi is open between you and me......How well does a Genetron work in 6 inches of water?????? My props have met many of the rocks in that section of the river.
Bruce
03-15-2002, 03:38 PM
Dick,
I noticed in your response that you said both of your tranducers operate at a frequency of 120 Khz. How can you operate a split screen function with the wide and narrow cone angle transducers without one interferring with the other when they both operate at the same frequency?
I am also interested in why you use such low frequency transducers. I thought the higher the frequency of the transducer the better the target detail. Lowrance mainly uses 200 Khz transducers and Vexilar uses a 400 Khz transducer in its Edge unit.
I have been trying to learn all I can about fishing sonar and your posts have been helpful. Thank you.
Fishgut
03-15-2002, 07:09 PM
Vern,
Aw shucks, just forget it.