Job stress [Archive] - Walleye Message Central

Dutchman

03-20-2002, 04:39 AM

I couln't agree more with all the above posts. In a recent very small article on the back pages of our local paper the CEO's of Kmart where asking for millions in bonus's. As I read this article my blood began to boil. They where the captains of Kmart and they ran there ship aground. Now they felt they should be rewarded with millions of dollars for not only ruining a corperation but also placing hundreds of family's in financial jepardy. I cannot believe that the current legal system in America allows this to happen. It almost seems that rewards should be given for those at the top no matter what they do. Is there no accountability in big bussiness any longer? Years ago these persons would have been relieved of there positions and more than likely their careers would have been ruined, but in these times they retire wealthy and continue to be allowed to tear down the very fabric that made this a great country. Thanks for letting me vent....

" Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope "

Meathead

03-20-2002, 06:43 AM

Anxious,
If 3-4-5 hundred grand and a million bonus was all they got it's a start. It is getting 20mil bonuses on top of multi million/year they receive after cutting jobs. That's what happened at att a few years ago. That company is so mis-managed I'm surprised they are still in business. I really feel for their employees.

problempigs

03-20-2002, 07:08 AM

the problem is, the money hogs think they deserve it. how the heck do we all put up with it anyway? amazing. i say, snub a money hog when you have a chance. enron, LTV steel, Potlatch, on and on and on.

Winnie T

03-20-2002, 07:34 AM

It gets pretty frustrating doesn't it. I work for a public school as a custodian. Our district has declining enrollments, so each year there are budget cuts. They always start by cutting the custodians, although the size of our buildings never changes. There are as many administrators today as there was during peak enrollment, and they never get cut.

T

Tommy Mac

03-20-2002, 07:52 AM

Oh yea! It's a good thing that I have to get ready for a fishing trip or I think this would be really long. It really seems to be common place now doesn't it. A guy works 25 years at a place and starts to think about retiring and spending some pension money but everywhere you look business are being sold and union contracts thrown out the window. Yet our government lets this go on. These outfits made billions over the years through our labor and yet all they seem to care about is how they can screw us over. They are getting a license to steal money right out of our pockets. We don't seem to have a chance in ##### of doing anything about it. Write your congressman, hold labor rally's. Bull #####. The lobbieing groups are to strong to get anything meaningful done through legislation. Even our own unions seem to look the other way when issues are brought up. I don't think anyone will have an answer for this topic. nuff said. Please excuse my lousy spelling.
Good Luck.

tj1n

03-20-2002, 08:20 AM

I didn't get layed off....yet! However, I've been slaving for 10 yrs. for my current employer working/saving up to finally be able to purchase a boat that would meet the majority of my needs...10k range.

Well, last week I was informed that I would be losing my company car effective immediately, as the car needs to be replaced. Well, it's not just the car but the gas, insurance, etc... This was part of my salary negotiation prior to accepting the job. Well needless to say, this is going to cost me a minimum of $650 extra per month to replace and I'll have the depreciation on my own vehicle now. I travel 4-5 thousand miles per month for my job.

Obviously this isn't as substantial as losing your job, however it sure is frustrating to continually have these set backs. I've been waiting all year for the right boat to come along and now I'm struggling to just make the finances come together without my dream.

Travis J.

Fred S

03-20-2002, 08:28 AM

I know how you feel. In Oct of 2000 I ended up losing my job at a company that the CEO sold after running it into the ground. He got himself a nice 5 million dollar buyout, and we all got unemployment. To this day I'm still feeling the effects of it by having had to take a crummy deadend job with hardly any benefits, because it was better than being out of work. I look for a job now and and it's tough because the resume is a mess. I look like a job-hopper.

Someday I will get around to my dream of simplifying my life, by saying @#!?!#? to all of the stress of this world and corporate America, by getting a stressless job with no politicking where I can be happy. Both options are pretty good: I can move to the Carribean and open up a small stand on the beach selling sunglasses, or I can move to a Canadian province and open up a bait store.

Seanik

03-20-2002, 09:08 AM

Hangeth in there guys!
I finally made it to retirement last year, now the most stress I have is planning this years trip North. God bless you all and hold on to your dreams a lot of us geezers are out here supporting you.

dave

03-20-2002, 09:24 AM

Seems like every 10 years or so this happens.Big layoffs.I went through this with every job I had until I quit & started my own business.You can't even buy a car let alone a house when you are laid off every year.The auto industry & the feeder plants are bad for this.As for K Marts I think it was abc in Detroit that did a big expose on them showing huge bonouses worth millions to a bankrupt company & get this taking a corporate jet to the bankrupcy hearing in court.Geese what about enron & lay the boss.

Water Dog

03-20-2002, 09:43 AM

The best jobs that ever became available to me were right after getting fired !

Strange , but true .

After a lot of hurt and thinking , someone said to me : (Do something you really enjoy . That is the key to success . )

After 20+ years in the same business it was hard to switch gears ; but you know what ? We all have skills and abilities that can be applied elsewhere .

My prayers for your chance to prosper in another line of work or business .

The only thing constant in life , is change .

Embrace it .

Dman142

03-20-2002, 09:50 AM

As a recent college graduate, I was convinced that college would be they way to go to get a good job, house, new truck, ect. Boy, did they fool me at college. Jobs are not out there in my field...of course. They don't tell you that while you are there. I have little experience in the work environment so no employer wants to take a second look. I can't even imagine being able to afford a new Lund or Ranger...ever in my life. I do have a County job but not anything that I can ever make good money at.
I know this may not be as bad as some situations but I ticks me off that I spent $20,000+ on college.
Dman142

eyecatcher_1

03-20-2002, 10:09 AM

DMan, hang in there, college will prove itself valuable before you know it. I graduated 2 years ago and looked at the world through the same glasses you are. But, I started small actually working for a college, moved on to a web development company, got laid off when the ##### terrorists attacked and our company closed, but it all worked out for the better in the end. I am now working for an excellent company making almost twice as much as I was a few months ago and I don't think my current employer would have considered me without a college degree. It is amazing to me the changes I have had for the better in a few short years. But let me tell ya, I was out of work for only a month and a half, but it took me 4 months to recoop from it. Thank god I already had my boat!!!!!

Hang in there guys, I firmly believe that a person can only get ##### on so many times in a lifetime!!!! (sorry about swearing)

GR8WTHUNTER

03-20-2002, 10:19 AM

The problem is that as a custodian you do not have the leverage the teachers union does. They continue to demand 5%-9% yearly raises or it is out to the picket line with the kids futures held hostage. Worst yet is that if there is a strike, the teachers will not lose any money in the long run. They will be paid in full for the 180 days of work (school year). And if population declines, less money budgeted for things like custodians, suplies, and the like. Also Every other hard working family suffers as they watch the taxes go up and up and up. A "GOOD" administrator can earn his wages many times over through creatively acquireing funding and managing the costs, But in the education racket, with the cost of educators going up faster than the cost of living, too many make the easy cut rather than fight the union. I feel for you.

IaCraig

03-20-2002, 11:02 AM

Correction Seanik, if your on Social Security or Medicare there is a lot of them supporting us Geezers...... :) Just kidding :) My parents & Aunts and Uncles have been on Social Security & Medicare for years and I actually get a warm fuzzy feeling when I see the portion of my check that goes to retired people like them.

I ditto what everyone is saying, and hang in there everyone. I hope that the ENRON situation gets enough press that the government or someone figures out how to put a stop to it.

Maybe I am just more aware of it because it happened where I worked for 21 years, but it seems like there is a new breed of management out there that is unscrupulous and preying upon solid companies to line their pockets with a quick buck.

I have been accused of being naive, but I don't think all of these "bad managers" are corrupt on purpose. I think that it is partially because they are book smart people with very little experience and common sense. And when they get in a position of power too soon, their inflated ego makes it worse because now they are not only "ignorant of their own ignorances" but also think they are too important to listen to anyone who tries to help them see the light!

There I feel better, sorry for getting on my soapbox!

Peter H

03-20-2002, 11:25 AM

A teacher deserves the money they get. They provide the service of educating our children and I want the best for my children - I will pay the taxes. I will do anything for my kids. Parents today think of teacher as a babysitting service to teach all the morals (and keeping up with tech (computers)) that parents of yesteryear taught there kids. Have you read to your child or told them right from wrong? With 2 income families the norm today -you want all that service - put up the cash. If they are getting all the money - why aren't there more teachers. Simple supply and demand????? Send your kids to a private school if you don't like the public school. The only teacher I have seen in the private schools are underpaid with no benefits(there are exceptions). No way will I send my kids to a private school the a teacher making less than a guy flipping burgers. Does that seem right for a teacher with a Master's degree? If you think anyone can be a teacher - I have news for you.

By the way - I am NOT a teacher.

Marble Eyes

03-20-2002, 11:40 AM

20K? After spending 10k for college back in 85, I took a job making 4.58 an hour..... Things have a way of working out.

Let me pass on some of the IMHO best advice I ever heard, and If you follow it you too will be able to write your own ticket.

It is NOT how much you make, but how much you spend. If you consider a personal savings/retirement fund a Monthly bill and pay it BEFORE you pay anything else and do it religiously, things will work out for you. Especially if you are in your 20's. And keep from playing the Keep up with the Jones. What the neighbor has may sure look Nice, but don't think folks don't get headaches paying all those payments. Debt is not something you should or need to jump neck deep into. Look at how much that controls your choices? If you are in debt up to your arse, can you afford to tell the boss to stick it and go find something more to your liking? or do you ahve to stand there and lick their boots? Can you accept the lower paid/ less stressful job if you have a house/2 car/ boat/ cabin/ kids college/ payments to make?

Money doesn't buy everything, BUT it makes dealing with layoffs and unexpected emergencies alot easier.

You keep your head up, Work hard and it will pay of. IMHO luck is something people make. Sure bad things happen. But So do good things.
Someone will be more inclined to go out on a limb for someone if they have a attitude of "I can" versus, "that won't work" or "what's the use".

I feel for folks that get their knees kicked out from them with crap like layoffs or plant closings. Especially when the CEO's are flying away with their golden parachutes. And yes, I think they should be building gallows for some of the Scammers. You may not have any control over that crap, but you can plan and atleast be able to deal with it a bit better.

Okay, sorry folks I'll get off the soap box.....

Waiting my turn

03-20-2002, 12:13 PM

I too work in a school-- only I teach. Talk about the shaft!!! Teachers are the lowest paid "professionals" on the market, and we still are being cut left and right. Where do we go without education? Cuts are a coming boys... maybe we could all go live in log cabins and sell our walleyes on the side.

tired of it all

teacher

03-20-2002, 12:27 PM

its good to say that teachers are over payed and under worked..YOU must be a teacher, because you understand the job so well.. I have been a teacher for 30 years and my average pay increase is 2 or 3 percent.. Many years we have had no increases in pay.. There is a teacher shortage in this country and a great time for all thoses who want join the teaching ranks and become rich and try out the good life..

phidelt157

03-20-2002, 12:38 PM

I am an inner city middle school computer science teacher in Indianapolis. Try it. It can be a very difficult job, but the reward fully pays off. There is nothing better than seeing a student's face light up after the finally "get it." I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Secondly, of course I'll say how much teachers are underpaid because I live it everyday. If you're a teacher and you have a basic 9-5 day, you're not fully doing your job (duty). During football season, I'm at school from 6:30-6:30. Plus the take home work is another matter. It's just one of those things...either you love it or you don't, there's no in between.

Getting closer to fishin' time...

157

GR8WTHUNTER

03-20-2002, 12:46 PM

Don't get me wrong, there are many teachers that do a fine job and deserve a just reward in compensation and should be the people educating our children. There are others that do not do a good job at teaching our children. I am not trying to "bash" teachers as a whole, nor am i trying to be a union basher. The facts are that in most school districts tenure is the rule for job retention, not preformance. A teacher with tenure (2 years service in all cases I am aware of)can be released for little short of molesting a kid. There is no review or evaluation of the teachers preformance. I know many people that teach as a profession. Some are fantastic, some good and some are nearly worthless. The ones that do not produce are quick to tell you that they have tenure and the administration can not get rid of them. My gripe is with the system that continually rewards the less competent. The teachers union is very strong, probably too strong for our own good. When contract time comes up, at least around here, the teachers have been looking 6-9% yearly increases as the norm. If the district does not give them everything they want, a strike can and does happen. A longer strike can affect the graduating class, particularly those loooking toward higher education. The "school year" needs to be completed and runs into the summer. If you are an iron worker and go on strike for a month, you do not get paid while on strike. That money is lost. As a teacher, if on strike, you do not draw a pay check while on strike, BUT when you return, you will receive your entire years salary. No money lost.
Who suffers in this situatin???? The kids
You can tell me how great and caring the teachers are in public schools and that there is no "dead wood" that should be eliminated, but why do kids graduate from high school that can not read.
There was this kid that worked for me that was a very industrious worker, but he was constantly making mistakes and never followed written instructions. He was very hard worker, he actuall was holding down three part time jobs. After much counseling we were not able to improve his accuracy and eliminate the mistakes and I needed to do the worst part of my job. When I sat him down in the office to tell him that he was going to be dismissed and the reasons, He broke into a cry. I learned that he could not read. No I did not fire him. I did get a loaner copy of hooked on phonics from the local Catholic elementry school. I knew two of the men that called them selves his "teachers". I asked them a club meeting if they knew that this kid could not read. The response was that they (teachers)all knew that he and others that just wouldn't ever get it or didn't work hard at it so they were just passed through the system so they were not a "problem". They started laughing about this and other follies with the less desireable students. I still see this young man from time to time. He did learn to read on his own. The point is that he had many teachers and none of them as I see it did there job. Again there is no accountability for teachers after tenure. If you or I stop producing, we will lose our jobs or receive little or no raise. Still they get the huge raises, when was the last time you got a 9% increase, and the administrations make cuts in other areas of the "non professional" staff or raise taxes to pay for it

IaCraig

03-20-2002, 12:58 PM

When budget cuts hit the state government the teacher contracts protect them to a point, so the maintenance areas are often looked upon as being unprotected and the easiest place to cut money. Personally, knowing what I pay in taxes that supposedly go towards public schools I am baffled by how they can be short on money, but that is a different story.

Anyway, as long as I can remember the teachers (at least in Iowa) have been saying they are underpaid. And I'm sure that for the most part it is true, however I'd think the teachers should have known this before they chose that line of work so I sympathize with them much less than the people who find themselves suddenly unemployed.

OrangeBarrel

03-20-2002, 01:28 PM

Please be careful who you call greedy. I am vice-president of our family company. It is a small company but my paycheck is based on the amount of work our company gets. I have had employees make more than me some years. I hope someday that I will be able to take a "FAT" bonus. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. But as long as I love what I do, I'll be OK. My children have a roof over their heads and they are clothed and fed. When they are happy, I am happy.
I can tell you that I do not have a single employee that was here when this company started. They went off to find greener pastures. No one wanted to stick around when times were tough, but my family stuck it out and made personal sacrifices to keep the company running and you are darn right we will take advantage of a "FAT" bonus if it ever happens because WE deserve it.

Marble Eyes

03-20-2002, 01:54 PM

Lance,

I believe you read something in my post I didn't write.
I called CEO's that screwed the employees then took off with their
Golden Parachutes, "Scammers".

I said nothing about Greedy. I have run and owned small businesses.
My post was not directed at such. I know first hand those headaches.

Cheers

wondering...

03-20-2002, 02:09 PM

anxious,
would you feel the same way if you were the one making 500 G's a year?
i wonder...

Are you SERIOUS??!!

03-20-2002, 02:25 PM

1) Average pay raise for teachers after every 2 year negotions period is roughly 2-3%. Average cost of living increases more than our "raises" ever do.
2) Taxes. Granted, this is where our salary comes from. As does the policemans', firemans', clerk of court, etc... Those who are not paid by the state, pay for the state to do the things they themselves do not do...(inforce laws, improve roads, educate their children)
3) Education? If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. The proverbial question... Spend now to educate; or spend later to incarcerate?
4) Budgets? Lets leave this one for the suits to discuss...
5) Strikes? I don't know where you are living, but no teachers want to strike anymore than anyone else. It does happen. Take my situation for example. I am NON tenured. The tenured teachers actually discussed teacher strikes recently at a board meeting. If I don't strike, the union disowns me, and I am screwed. If I do strike, the administration "releases" me for the next contract, and again, screwed.
6) Tenure... In my district, tenure comes on the fourth contract signed. How many other jobs make you go through a 3-year probation period? (Personally I disagree with Tenure...)
7) Special Education. You want to see paperwork and headaches? Try this. Not asking for a shoulder to cry on, nor bashing those in need of service, but WOW!!! Didn't expect as much of this going into the profession...
8) I will stop now. I too, hate reading long drawn out posts that basically repeat the same thing.

Sumation? You have to spend money to make money.

Yes, I am an educator.

Looking for answers... Can't wait for spring.

03-20-2002, 02:45 PM

Having been married to a teacher for the past 20 years I can tell you that they don't get paid enough for the crap that they have to put up with. The student that you refer to that couldn't read...WHERE WERE HIS PARENTS AND WHAT WERE THEY DOING FOR 12 YEARS??????? Why aren't you outraged over their incompetance? And yes, the school probably did pass him along because his parents threatened to sue the school and the teacher if they held him back. This happens daily. 6-9% annual pay increases, this is pure fantasy. 2.5-3% is more like it.

What you'll find is that, just like the iron workers you mentioned, there is some deadwood in the system. 90% of the teachers are underpaid and the other 10% are overpaid and protected by the union. Just like autoworkers, ironworkers, and workers in every other field.

After 24 years of teaching, going to night school to get a Masters Degree, and grading papers every night, my wife still doesn't make as much as the guys on the assembly line at the local GM plant. But she has never complained about the money, just the BS from the administrators and parents that think the school should be raising their kids, not just teaching them.

This is still America. If you think teachers have it so good, go get your teaching certificate. You too can cash in on this easy life.

GR8WTHUNTER

03-20-2002, 03:00 PM

As I see now, the raises being asked for and published in the paper in central Pennsylvania have been out of line with other parts of the country. I may have come off as hot towards all educators but that is not the case. I'm not looking for a war. I have had wonderful teachers during my school years that challenged me to think and learn and owe a debt of gratitude to those individuals. At the same time I had experience with the guy that wrote what pages to read in the book on the board, had students switch papers to grade tests, and spent his work day reading the paper. My ire is towards these individuals and the ones that make jokes about the kid they didn't make an effort to educate. Every district has them, they have tenure, I see this as a problem. Education is very valuable, but I don't think throwing money at the problem is the answer. My hat goes off to you if you chose special education as your field. Anyone that can sucessfully teach and deal with the stresses that abound in special ed could certainally have dove very well in the private sector and very likely made more money. Not trying to bash anyone, but yes I was serious. next year is contract year(every 3 years here)and locally it will be a hot topic.

03-20-2002, 03:01 PM

A guy should be a teacher then he could fish all summer.

GR8WTHUNTER

03-20-2002, 03:11 PM

marble eyes, well said and great advise

OrangeBarrel

03-20-2002, 03:23 PM

Hey Marble eyes,
I wasn't even thinking so much about your post, but just how some people think in general. I do believe that corporate greed is out there in regards to screwing employees of their just rewards and profiting off of unearned bonuses and such and that is WRONG. My sympathies go out to all those people.
On the other, and I am not pointing fingers, there are those people who take advantage of the employers. i.e. I know of people that have faked a back injury just before they were about to get laid off because they know Work Comp pays more than Unemployment. Now, I wonder how many WCer's are going to read this and say, "Well now, I never thought of doing that" Well if some of you think that way and act upon this, good luck in life because what goes around, comes around.
And for anyone who wants to know, yes, I have a nice boat and a company truck. BUT, if my wife did not also work full-time, I can guarantee you, I would not have a nice boat. I am even on my wifes health insurance because her rates are a heck of alot better than my small company can provide. That is a fact of life that can only change when our nations health providing policy changes.
I work, I play with my children, and I fish(sometimes I catch fish too), and I am happy.

IaCraig

03-20-2002, 03:58 PM

It does not matter where you are, if anyone brings up the topic of employment woes someone will bring up how underpaid teachers are.

Enough already, are you people telling the guy who started this post "losing your job isn't so bad, it could be worse you could be an employed teacher".

sgtski

03-20-2002, 04:04 PM

Wow, this post has evoked some strong emotions.

Like the teachers who have responded, most of us would likely take offense if we’re painted with too broad a brush. Maybe like most professions, the best teachers are underpaid and the worst are overpaid. Don’t most of us think we deserve more, whether we’re a teacher, custodian, or professional fisherman?

I agree that executives of large companies that take huge salaries plus bonuses, while the company struggles, are way out of line. On the other hand, small businesses that succeed should reward those who took the risk (generally the owner). I disagree with those who think any company OWES them a job. I’ve been self-employed for nearly all of the past 30 years. As a result, I’ve always been employed, although I’ve missed my share of paydays. I started with nothing, and have managed to hang on to most of it!

I also disagree that the government should “step in”. The government should get out of the way (to the greatest degree possible), and let businesses function.

To Dman142, who spent $20,000 on a college degree he can’t use: Regarding the lack of job opportunities in your field, you said, “They don’t tell you that while you are there”…
Don’t you have some responsibility regarding your choice of major? Don’t mean to sound scolding, but it’s easy to play the blame game. I think you will find your degree to be meaningful at some point.

To the original poster: I wish you the best in finding suitable employment soon.

It’s easier to get older than it is to get wiser.
sgtski

Box

03-20-2002, 04:05 PM

Marbleyes, well said.

Dman, your education will help. And it WILL pay off.

My first job after college was in '90 and for $5.65 hour. My first w-2 was for like $14k for one full year (including overtime), and I had NO benefits. I worked that job for 5 years, never making more than $20k per year. My buddies were making double that right out of high school, and with little training. I just new I would be rich if I could ever make more than $24k :)

Then that job (a biology research related job, and no, biologists don't make much - even teachers who always complain about $$ made much more than me) ran out, and I was forced to take another "interim" job. Well that job flourished into something that is fun, pays decent, has a good outlook and has given me many opportunities (I was even able to expense a Remington .270 doing what I now do...hehe...).

A college degree is not required for what I do, but I honestly think I would not be at the job I am at without it. You learned much more while at school than you think you did, and while it might not show on your resume, just watch what happens about 5-10 years down the road. That $20k college money is well spent! Trust me!

Just don't be afraid to take chances. And on that note, I will never complain about the small business owner (who double mortgaged his home and sold his car, etc. to make a business grow) who took a chance and now pays me much less than himself even though I do more work. These guys took the chance, they are ENTITLED to the lion's share. If they want to keep a good worker they pay him/her well. But they should get the most. Period. My next job, if I ever must change, will be that of a small business owner. I will work my arse off, and then let someone else take over while I let the $$ roll in. I would advise any young person to consider this early. Take a chance.

end of my lil soapbox ;)
-Box

Box

03-20-2002, 04:18 PM

wow sgtski, we posted at the same time, and have remarkably similar feelings. I agree, get govm't away and keep them away.

I was also self-employeed for a year and half, until just this Feb. Still doing same thing, but now someone else is paying the "employer postion" of SS. Until I was self-employed, I had no idea how much "employees" get from their employers. I have much respect for small business owners, and the ones who can take it to larger businesses, or keep the small businesses successful over time - - my hats are off to you! :)

And again to Dman, take control of your life and future. Change is good, and good things often come slowly.

And likewise to the orignal poster, I hope things work out well for you and anybody else here who is on the bubble. I've been there, and it has worked out for the best, for me anyway.

-Box

Northman

03-20-2002, 05:04 PM

I agree with you MK. My wife went back to full time teaching 4 years ago. She is out the door by 7:30am, 22 minutes for lunch and home at 6:00pm. Then there is the usual night prep for classes and weekend work. She makes 22,300 a year. Last year the teachers got a 1% raise and this year 1.5% raise. She has 6 years of college (elementary degree and secondary ed degree with major in English and minors is math and business.)
Like you said, she has never complained about the pay and crappy benies. She just really enjoys teaching the kids (High School). I don't know how she keeps her cool with all the disrespectful kids now. I would be in the slammer if one of those kids talked to me the way they talk to the teachers. The parents are just about as bad. It always is the teachers fault, not little Jonnies or Suzies.
I used to think that teachers had it pretty easy but not any more. I think you have be married to a teacher or be one to really see that they earn every cent they get.
Northman

03-20-2002, 07:09 PM

Broad generalizations there about private schools. My observations of private schools as an outsider and as a parent of kids who attend private school differ. I've seen both sides of the fence. I've found dedicated teachers in both private and public, but a much higher percentage in the private schools. Are they paid less? In most cases yes, but in our local area, some of the Catholic and other private schools have top educators that have 25+ years in. Down the road at two of the "top" public schools in the area, they don't have that kind of experience.

I've been in both situations, and I've seen parents much more involved as a whole in private schools. Maybe this along with other similar trends makes the money trade off better for the teachers. Would you rather teach kids whose parents sacrifice to send their kids there....or a group who sees their education as "free"?

The american working man

03-20-2002, 07:50 PM

Things are changing for me the american working man. Corporations want to get rid of my good paying job, get rid of my pension, and get rid of my benefits, and replace me by hiring part time or contracting out. Hey, more profits for the stockholders, and the CEO's. Who can blame them, "Right".

Lets see who they sell their products to when we're all working part time, making five bucks an hour.

Winnie T

03-20-2002, 08:05 PM

Imagine this, you work for a company for 30-35 years, and retire with a pension, and health care coverage. The company you worked for files for bankruptcy. Now they tell you you will loose all or most of your pension, and your health care coverage. This could never happen right? Well it's happening right now to LTV steelworkers here on Minnesotas Iron Range.

To me, this is criminal, and yet we let it go on!

T

Average Canadian Working Man

03-20-2002, 08:07 PM

We have lost a lot of our manufacturing jobs to cheaper foreigner like Mexico and the far east. The average construction worker is over 45 and resource jobs are being modernized so that machinery and a couple of operators do the work of hundreds. I am in my fourties, have a skilled trade and have been very fortunate. I feel for my kids who are in high school and have an uncertain future. Without an education or a trade it will be very dificult to maintain a good level of living as in my generation. The problem is that not everyone can get a high paying skilled job or be good at school. We are destroying our way of life going to a global economy and allowing cheap imports in at the expense of well paying jobs.

ANXIOUS

03-20-2002, 08:14 PM

SO MANY VERY GOOD COMMENTS. THOUGH IT'S NOTHING WE HAVENT KNOWN FOR YEARS,WE KEEP TAKING IT UP THE #####. THIS DEAL AT POTLATCH REALLY STINKS. MY COUSIN WORKS THERE AND HE IS SCREWED. I READ AN ARCTICLE IN THE TRIB TODAY AND THEY INTERVIEWED SOME SCHMUCK FROM THE CITY OF BRAINERD AND HE SAYS... WELL EVERYONE WILL GET BY,THEY WILL GO TO WORK IN THE RESORT INDUSTRY AND AT MENARDS AND BEST BUY. YA RIGHT! ALL THOSE GOOD UNION JOBS WERE HOLDING BRAINERD TOGETHER. WHO IS GONNA BUY THE ##### AT MENARDS AND BEST BUY NOW? THE PEOPLE WORKING AT MADDENS MAKING BEDS AND MOWING THE ##### GOLF COURSE? I DONT THINK SO. OH YA,AND WONDERING, HOW DO YOU LOOK AT THINGS?

Dutchman

03-20-2002, 08:15 PM

Hey! I thought there was legislation voted in by our senate and cogress signed by the President to prevent this type of issue after A beefpacking corp. burned all the retired folks from John Morrels. Looks like there where some loopholes. I think we need to vote vey carefully in the upcoming elections...

" Fishing is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable, a perpetual series of occasions for hope "

ANXIOUS

03-20-2002, 08:22 PM

YOU CANT WIN BY VOTING ANYMORE! THE GOVERNMENT IS SO COMPLEX HOW COULD ANYONE EVER FIGURE IT OUT? SEEMS LIKE NOW A DAYS THERE ARE AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WANT TO BE POLITICIANS! NO WONDER WHEN AFTER YOU SERVE YOUR TERM(S) YOU RETIRE AND GO ON COLLECTING YOUR SALARY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. A LOT OF OTHER COUNTRIES HATE US AND IT'S REALLY OUR GOVERNMENT THEY ARE MAD AT.

Jesus

03-20-2002, 08:25 PM

For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet lose his own soul.

outdoor fanatic

03-20-2002, 08:31 PM

I hope not to sound too much like an idiot here, but I don't think anyone should be blaming high paid executives. If they do something illegal to acquire their wealth, then they should be taken care of. If they do something immoral, they will be taken care of sooner or later. However, I have been on both sides. I'm not a high paid executive, but I make pretty good money. I don't think I should feel sorry for that in any way. I started in the military as a grunt (even after I had my college degree) because there weren't any jobs to be had in my field (wildlife biology). I put ten years in the military basically working 80+ hrs a week for a mere pittance. I didn't complain about it because it was the choice I made. If anyone follows the happenings of the military during democratic reigns, you'd know that the military always gets cut and cut hard. I know of many people in our military who were called on to fight for our country and had to have food stamps to feed the family. I worked my ##### off to get where I'm at today as have a lot of high paid executives. It's a lot like blaming professional athletes for their salaries. I don't know of a single person who wouldn't take that kind of money to play a sport. But, they like everyone else took a chance at playing sports. My point is this: I empathize with anyone who is unemployed or is facing a layoff, but blaming top level executives is not where the blame (in most cases; Enron and the like excluded here) should lie. We all make choices and we live by those choices. As for the college grad: Never take your education for granted. It will get you things that you might not be able to see now. In most cases, it's just a case of having a box checked off. I wouldn't have my job right now if it weren't for my degree, however, I'm not even working in the field that my education is in.

I hope that everyone has things work out for them as best as possible and thanks for letting me vent.

SnellTier

03-20-2002, 08:37 PM

I read with great interest all 40 of the posts ahead of mine. I retired last July at age 54. I have never been happier in my life. Man, I am so glad to be out of the stuff you guys are putting up with! My heart goes out to those of you still getting consumed in the economic meat-grinder.

The only advice I can offer is when you get "re-cycled" (and, yes, it WILL happen to YOU!! ... it did to me) just make sure you wind up with a job you like.

One thing that brings a smirk to my face is that a few years after our company down-sized most of my department, the parent company closed down the whole mess and the jerks that ran our company onto the rocks in the first place shared all our fate. I wish I had the cojones to call the president at that time and remind him of his statements to me about what a great job he and his team were doing running our company ... but I could not bring myself to be that mean.

Hang in there.

hgf

03-20-2002, 08:58 PM

If your company had a pension plan, it should be protected. But it had to be fully funded. In other words, the company had to be paying in the money as it went along. Unions need to watch that closely. But sometimes it is more important to give a raise to the guys working than making sure the company keeps fully funding the pension plan.
I wonder about one comment by road barrel. He said not one employee stuck with him. I've been self employed for 27 years, and would not be successful unless I had long time employees. It's the oldtimers who make you money and keep you out of trouble. But you have to treat them right to get them to be old timers. I just sold out, will be taking a job working for the government. But every one of my employees has a job guarantee. Otherwhise I would not have quit.
Keep on getting that education. It will pay off in the long run. But always remember you can't do it alone. Wife, kids, parents, coworkers, bosses, employees all play a part in your success. To be successful, you have to help others be successful. (Took me awhile to learn that)

Dave

03-20-2002, 09:44 PM

Well I have joined the ranks of the fishing for “food” group. I waited 2 years to apply for the PWT as an armature and was really looking forward to fishing the western division this year and meeting some of you in person. I now get to spend my time fishing for a new job.... The company I was working for was making money but the people at the top were looking for ways to cut cost and that easy to do with less staff. Maybe we need to add a Walleye Fishermen’s Networking board to this great site....Hope to see some of guys on the water this year...I be the one paddling my Triton 205 from the dock to save money...lol..but really just want to say thanks to the folks at PWT for their encouragement to come back next year and have the opportunity to do some fishing and learn with the pros…jobs come and go but your dreams are forever!

Good Fishing!
Dave

jigmeister

03-21-2002, 03:04 AM

Dutchman you are not only on the mark , but speak with the intelligence of a very wise man! To All A Safe And Happy Fishing Season "2002' "Jigging Till The Break Of Dawn"

jigmeister

03-21-2002, 03:11 AM

Are You For Real?????????????? You Are Funny???????????????????

jigmeister

03-21-2002, 03:36 AM

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!

phidelt157

03-21-2002, 05:23 AM

Well said.

It is difficult to raise 30 kids 9 months out of the year. It's too often (especially where I am) that this happens to teachers.

Thank you.

Amdahl

03-21-2002, 09:46 AM

Sorry, couldn't stay out...

First, as someone who grew up with a teaching father there was never a 9% raise at my house. Second, there was never a summer when my dad didn't have to work to make ends meet (Yes, mom worked full time). Third, It was illegal for teachers to strike in the state we lived (lets talk about powerless). Fourth, everyone seems to know how to teach better than teachers, but there are never any solutions given that work. My personal favorite is "Let's run the school like a business". Good one. Employees do their job so they won't get fired. What do you do with a kid who isn't going to do his/her work? Tell his parents? Guess what? They don't care either. Don't even get me started on vouchers...

Stepping off of my soap box...
Reality also is that there are some teachers who aren't doing their job and should be removed. But the vast majority care more about "their kids" than the kids own parents. There is a solution out there. I've heard good suggestions from both sides of the political fence. These are our kids folks. Let's quit throwing mud and work on this together for a change.

Sorry, for the ranting, I need some open water.

Amdahl

Amdahl

03-21-2002, 09:56 AM

Just two questions for you. Where do you suppose the kids go that either can't afford to private school (or get kicked out). Two, you're a new college grad with an education degree. If public schools pay more (which in most cases they do) where do you think the best teachers go? I understand that there are a few people out there who will forego the cash because of deep beliefs and I commend them for it. But reality is that we all have to pay the bills and given the opportunity, most of us will take the higher salary.

Amdahl

OrangeBarrel

03-21-2002, 10:05 AM

I will tell you something funny(sarcastically)about modern machinaery and why it is used. In fact, I'll give you an incident.
I had a laborer on a project site picking up ORANGE BARRELS from a construction site that was finished. There were approximately 500 drums on this road. the drums themselves weigh about 12-15lbs and the tire ring base about 40lbs. I show these guys how to properly lift as to not injure or stress their back. Well, this numbnut decides to spin around like a shotput athlete and throw the bases on the truck. He pulls a muscle in his back and now collects Workman's comp. MY Workman's Comp. carrier calls me to go through the injury evaluation with me. The employee states he was picking up approximately 300-350 drums that day and felt his back getting sore. I told the gal that his statement was correct but he probably lifted more than that. She states, "WOW, That's an awful lot of drums, don't you have a machine that can pick that equipment up for the employees." My jaw hit the floor. At this time I was no longer courteous to this gal. I told some jobs have aover 3000 drums on it. I asked her what ever happened to manual labor. If the state and OSHA keep mandating us to make it easier for the employees, than we have no choice but to let go some employees to make up for the lost money we had to dish out for machinery. There are alot of hard working americans out there that know what manual labor is like and I am still in the trenches with my men. But than there are those that want to make alot of money and sit on there rear ends and cry that it's too hard. As the saying goes, laziness is the mother of all invention, but that's not always a good thing.

Dman142

03-21-2002, 10:20 AM

sgtski,
I don't mean to say that a degree in Criminal Justice doesn't have openings but the professors in college tend to promote all the jobs that are available to you but fail to tell you that these jobs are only available to people with 10+ years experience. After trying to get a job with the State, I have realized it's who you know, not qualifications. Possibly not in any other states, but here it is.
I'm content with my job now. I probably should not be complaining because I really don't have much debt, got a girlfriend(no plans for marriage), boat, ice shanty and the best part..no kids!
I'll just be patient and see what comes about.

Thanks to all.
Dman142

Silver/MI

03-21-2002, 10:41 AM

OutdoorFanatic has got it right. Everybody thinks these executives were handed those positions. They took extremely high risks to get where they are. We all could have, but most of us including me are afraid of failure and want security. The bonuses come from the people that hire them. And no its not always ethical. I too liken it sports salaries.
In a way the people driving the whole thing is ourselves. We only want to invest in companies returning 15%. Big fat companies can't do that. So we, by wanting the highest returns are demanding these companies be as profitable as possible.
I can almost see the day when the US becomes just one big office building. How can we compete with the cheap foriegn labor? My prediction is that many countries like Mexico and China will have to start seeing a huge change in living standards before things improve for us.

sgtski

03-21-2002, 10:52 AM

Dman142,
You sound like you have a very good attitude and a balanced perspective. Both of those (along with your degree) will serve you well. Others have pointed out that your degree is important, often without regard to your major area of study. Best of luck to you.
sgtski

eyeman_1

03-21-2002, 06:12 PM

I hear you. I thought I'd retire from Lucent Technologies. I thought wrong. I got the axe last October. Took about 3 months to find anything else and I will say that I truly hate my new job. No bennies, no vacation, no time off, and about 2/3 pay. But, I have to pay the bills and keep peace in the house. If my wife is out there everyday earning a living I need to do my part as well. It's been awful tough both financially and emotionally. I sometimes feel like what did I do wrong.

The frustrating part is that there are still people working there that really should have been gone long before myself and many others. But as you've said we don't make the decisions it's the folks at the top.

I try to take it one day at a time. Put in my time now and keep looking for something better around the bend. There has to be better things to come. I just hope it's soon. I count the hours till the weekend so that I can be with my wife, friends and family and hopefully if the weather permits do a little fishing. Forgot about tournaments this year, I'm just happy to keep the boat!

Better days ahead!

GR8WTHUNTER

03-21-2002, 08:21 PM

Where was the pension fund invested???
More than likely it was invested back into company stock. Tch company goes broke, the stock becomes worthless, the retirement money is gone. How to pay the pensions???
I feel for you guys in this situation, but I think every one needs to take notice and start thier own retirement fund. This could be any one of us down the road.

chrism

03-21-2002, 09:46 PM

Hmmmm.......Good One!

03-22-2002, 07:16 AM

Dutchman, Didn't your mother tell you to not beleve anything you read and only half of what you see... Chuck Conway was the CEO (There is only one CEO of the company not CEO's) He did not ask for that Million dollar bonus, but it is in his contract and to date he still hasn't asked for it. Before you think I am some K-Mart Exec. I am not. But my wife has worked for them for over 27 years and we are both sick of what is going on. If you look at the top structure of the company in recent years you will find that the Top level managers are former Wal-Mart Exec. Looks pretty fishy to me. My whole point is that people need to get their facts straight before spreading rumors and the people that do the stock reporting (Reiters) are the one's that put the companies at risk by allowing personal opinion's to be incorporated into their statements....

BlackSilver

03-22-2002, 10:15 AM

I grew up poor, dropped out of college after one year (no scholarship) and got my degree/post grad on GI bill after 21 years in the USN. In those days my wife and I counted ourselves lucky that the kids were warm and fed everynight.

Then spent 22 more years in another occupation, and only now can we kinda splurge a little once in a while.

Instant gratification is over. Deal with it.

SET the hook!!!

Hans/MN

the man

03-22-2002, 11:55 AM

If you don't vote, you can't #####.

Red Ruffandsore

03-22-2002, 07:29 PM

I'm sorry but I had to comment here.

Don't ever ask the people that own/run the company to apologise for making millons. That's ridiculous. Last time I checked it was a free enterprise system. And if you are union it's even worse. Union labour sure has a selective memory. Remember all those times you screwed the company? Unions get what they want through threats and intimidation and call it bargaining. Who in the ##### ever owed anybody a living. That's Communism baby! If a person invests millions of dollars in a venture, it is his money....not yours. He can do with it what he pleases. Why does the owner of the company owe anyone anything? Let's take a look at what's really screwing up any country. Y'all want services from everybody. Y'all want to be able to take things back to the store just because you changed your mind. Y'all want everything to be at your door fast fast fast. Companies today need to compete globally. Listen up carefully because this has been said a million times and no one is listening. Buy domestically....hello did you hear it...did you understand it.....are you going to forget it in five minutes. I'll type it again. BUY DOMESTICALLY. Doesn't it make sense? Jesus friggin Christmas I don't understand why the heck it's so hard. If you buy foreign, you deserve every bad thing that happens in your life. Let the foreign countries buy your goods and don't buy theirs. Now having said that, unions listen up. What is so bad about making your company strong instead of tearing it down? Don't whine about the company moving or shutting down if you own most of the fault for it happening. And don't blame it on the fat cat making millions at the top either. Y'all out there have the power to make the country stronger so why don't you do it? Put up or shut up. Y'all talk about working together, being united, strength of our county, Sept 11 and all that talk. So how many of you out there talk even prouder about screwing the govenment, the store, the business you work for. And just FYI...I'm Canadian and our dollar being low doesn't mean we are lesser...it means American bucks are spent building our economy...that's the idea.

Stay off the pipe...and don't forget to wipe.

Red

ntz4fshn

03-22-2002, 07:41 PM

I empathize with you, lost my job 12-10-01 for reading a photocopy of a trade mag article that proved that the company was being managed backwards and all the trouble we were in with Boeing Co. was because of the big guys making the big bucks. I now getting my degree so I can be one of the big guys making the big bucks. Seems like they never get fired or layed off.

tightlines,
ntz4fshn

Canadian Guy

03-22-2002, 07:41 PM

Good speach Red............

LakeRat

03-22-2002, 08:28 PM

If you look at American history, you will find the most disasterous economic times were when the times of plenty are the best for the "fat cats" and CEO's. Basic economics dictates that the little guy must be able to afford goods and services in order for the companies to survive. The companies need to keep wages low to increase profits. The problem in many cases is the top heavy companies with excessive management and middle management and all over priced for their capabilities.

As to owing someone a living....No! I agree! But, a business owner can blow sunshine up your butt all he wants until he has to come across with the bucks at the barganing table. That is when their memory gets cloudy. Then their solutions are to get rid of the back bone of the companies...the higher priced experienced worker that has seniority and longevity and has worked diligently for the company, to be simply replaced by a newby that has no clue about life until he has a wife, is knee deep in kids. Then that worker too will want a piece of prosperity.

It may be the money of the investor that creates a company, but it is the back of the worker on which it is carried!

No you do not owe just anybody a living, but you do owe a worker a living for the hours of their life given to the company. Alone, a worker has no clout at the bargaining table, also, is at the mercy of another worker that brown noses the boss. A Union levels the playing field. Also, a Union can bring labor attorneys to match the attorneys hauled in by business. The history of Union formation in this country is well documented and yes, violence was an issue on BOTH sides of the table. But there is not near the violence that there was back in the day. As far as buying domestic, you really can have a tough time figuring out what parts of a product are made in the USA and what is not. Components are manufactured world wide. Unless you have some inside knowledge as to the parts purchasing of a product, a made in the US sticker might not reflect the whole labor picture. So, just buying domestic doesn't quite cover it. Truth in labeling might. And finally, if the existing companies quit selling off to foriegn companies, or moving factories to overseas production, it might be possible to buy domestic.

The bottom line is the "bottom line". The company must make huge profits, not just profits. And, it is easy to EXPLOIT a foriegn worker who does not know when he is being taken to the cleaners for the benefit of the "fat cat", but is simply satisfied with being subservient to one.

I guess it comes from living in the US, but I guess my view is that I hold myself to a higher standard of living than to bow down to a dirt floor shack with a dollar a week income and watch a "fat cat" strut about like he is a slave owner.

I am thankful for what I have, but I will be ****ed if I will shut up at the bargaining table and take it up the butt from people that are themselves overpaid!

LakeRat

03-22-2002, 08:50 PM

Good, now if they would cut the other professionals down to size wage wise, this country might start making sense.

And the percentages are only refering to wages, the benefits are not mentioned. And I have yet to go past a school parking lot and see that slouch of a vehicle that all those teachers are driving. Not a 10 year old vehicle in the lot!

If you want to see the incomes of a worker class, go view their spending habbits.

Go to a factory and see what the workers show up in. Go to a school and see what the teachers show up in! You will see a large difference in the year and cost of vehicle between the two lots. And I promise you the factory worker will not be in the upper end.

As bad as the Senior Citizens crying about needing discounts! I went past a senior citizen function at a local park a few years ago, there was NOT ONE vehicle that did not look shiney new and almost all were no older than a few years! Discount my butt!

Red Ruffandsore

03-22-2002, 08:54 PM

That's real easy to say when you live in an economically strong country with social services. If bin Laden get's his way, you may well be hovelling in a dirt floor shack. If you are to lazy to know what it is you are buying, or take the time to research...well...what can I say? As for brown nosing the management, why is it someone who tries to succeed is labelled...wait a minute I forgot who I was talking to. Union rhetoric is tired, old, and stale. Unions are out for one thing and that's making money for union bosses. Funny how the big grievance settlements always end up in the pockets of the union bosses. I'll ask you why union fat cats are allowed to make so much money...but company fat cats are not? Does not everything you spew count towards the union bosses? Why not?
I have watched many grievances fall by the wayside because the cost of arbitration to get just an apology is not economically viable. Was not the union out to protect my rights? As long as it's cost effective. Hmmmmmmm sounds a lot like the stuff the CEO was saying before the layoffs. You keep wishing upon a star that the unions will make the world right...that the power of union labour will bring your country along into the next century...that the union labour actually built the contry to what it is today....and then take the time sometime to look objectively at how a company makes money. How much money is made by investing cash and not building products. I haven't even mentioned mutual fund managers yet. If you think Al Chainsaw Dunlap was a bad guy...find out who pulled his strings. Sunbeam...a 100+ year old company with brand recognition second only to Coke. Cut up and parted out to make a mutual fund perform. Think you better find out who was really to blame. By the way, do you own any mutual funds. Ahhh if problems were only a simple as unions made them out to be. That ##### management screwing you workers again. har har har

Stay off the pipe...and don't forget to wipe.

Red

LakeRat

03-22-2002, 09:16 PM

"I have watched many grievances fall by the wayside because the cost of arbitration to get just an apology is not economically viable". If you had a true handle on how a union works, then you would understand that you can grieve a contract violation and that is it. I am wondering why a union would grieve to get a simple apology too? They don't grieve to get apologies, they grieve for remuneration to enforce the existing working agreement. It costs the company to violate the working agreement, just as it can cost a worker a job if he violates it! If you filed for that kind of garbage, that is probably why you simply watched them dissappear with a not feasible statement.

You sound like a disgruntled worker that a Union wouldn't back! Or is it just that your economy is dependant on ours and yours will always suck!

As for the terrorists, they are not capable of dropping us! Canada maybe, but not us.

Rapaleye

03-22-2002, 09:19 PM

I don't want to be dragged into are teachers worth their pay, of course they are, but Marble eyes you pointed out something that all too often people don't pay attention to.
When I started my first job out of college I had the worst time making ends meet. I was tempted by all the things I wanted to buy. I had 25,000 dollars in college loans (in the early 80's that was a lot). My dad used to bug me about how much I was spending and how much I wasn't saving which drove me crazy. We had fights about it all the time. Then he gave the the best advice I have ever been given. He finally said that if I began to participate in my company retirement fund (401K) at the matched amount, that he would never question me about my spending again. I did it just to get him off my back. Nearly 20 years later I can't belive how much that has grown into. It has given me the security that even if I did loose my job I could now take a lesser paying job and my family and our future would be just fine.
Thanks dad for the good advice. For any of you younger folks out there don't pay interest on a depreciating asset, and start a retirement fund in your 20's , even if it is only a couple hundred per year.

Red Ruffandsore

03-23-2002, 05:30 AM

Canada's economy does not "suck". That's just ignorant U.S. chest thumping logic. Look at our highways...not only are they superior to the U.S.'s but they are full of new cars. New home sales have never been so good. Unemployment is the lowest in decades. We are now Hollywood North, taking jobs away from California. Learn before you speak. Global economy is a relatively new area for the layman to understand so I won't grind you. Before you go to bed feeling safe and warm, watch what's happening between Israel and the Palestinians. All the friggin bombs in the world can't fix that mess. No point in arguing when you will clearly see in years to come, what the sustained costs, to do what the U.S. has to do now, take their toll on the U.S. economy. Hmmmmm Just checked the paper and the Canadian dollar is up even more.

Oh! and whether you "brown nose" to the company or "brown nose" to the union, neither is going to pay your mortgage when the paycheck stops coming. You are on your own and you do what's right for you and your family. Me, I'll continue to work hard and succeed through promtion and retire as planned at 55. My home is paid for, my RRSP's are maxed out, I have a considerable savings account, and soon I'm out. The end did justify the means. When I drive by your picket line, I'll toss you a few quarters to help you get by. You can rag to me about what the company did to you...and I'll tell you about what I did for myself.

Stay off the pipe...and don't forget to wipe.

Red

LakeRat

03-23-2002, 08:02 AM

LOL... Way off the mark.

44, Already retired with substantial savings and a regular income until death, at which point my wife continues to collect half of my income until her death, complete with cost of living increases.

hehe... where did you invest your dollar.... I mean 37 cents.

And I never belonged to a union, nor did I ever have to brownnose a boss.

And please don't throw anyone a couple of quarters, we don't want to see you throw away a Canadian's days wages!

Have a great day. I will!

Red Ruffandsore

03-23-2002, 08:16 AM

Pure fantasy

Stay off the pipe...and don't forget to wipe.

Red

Canadian Guy

03-23-2002, 09:56 AM

LakeRat.....You Americans never dissapoint me in your logic. I will back away slowly now bowing as I go.

unknown

03-23-2002, 10:00 AM

I think he is saying that the big wigs up top are greedy and are not looking out for ther employees, just the bottom of ther personal bank accounts. what will it profit them to get all that wealth at the expense of the employees on ther death bed and beyond.

Jerry

03-23-2002, 10:45 AM

Hey Bud ,im just a blue collar workin stiff that knows what your talking about.This is not a FEEL SORRY FOR THE GUY DEAL but i love to fish and always like to meet new people...so if you and a son or daughter or friend or a couple more(if they have another boat)want to come to MANITOBA for some of the best fall walleye ON THIS PLANET i'd be more than happy to have you stay at my cottage and use my boat .....no charge...use of boat is with me in it of course..if you feel this can work for you let me know

eyeoffish

03-23-2002, 02:48 PM

What has happened to american jobs is the fault of greedy,apathetic people. People who have stood silent and refused to have their voice heard. MILLIONS of good paying good benefit jobs now reside in china mexico,and many other countries.I work in manufacturing in these jobs are few and far between. Once America was the worlds leader in manufacturing industries, but as fellow americans we would rather save a penny than save are neighbors job. I will end my comments with this true story. IN the school district my children attented in the 80"s they wanted to pass a school levy and property tax increase to buy educational needs and give the school board the funds to increase teachers salaries. WHEN I attented the meeting at the scholl district office. In the staff and teachers parkings areas there were more foreign cars than american made cars. AFTER that meeting for the next several weeks I made it a point to drive by the teachers parking areas at each of the schools in the district. There were MANY more foreign cars at each school, so I also hate fat cat rich CEO"S of big companies, but where do you think they got the idea that the American people would allow this to happen.

fishguy

03-23-2002, 04:10 PM

I have to put my 2 cents in. I'm 30 yrs old and have been self employed since I was 20. I don't agree with the heads of huge companies getting huge bonuses after firing hundreds. I do believe that they should get a bonus--if the company is stabble enough to do it!! As an owner of a company, paying taxes on employees, paying self employment taxes, paying dept of economic security taxes, paying work comp fees, paying company insurance premiums, paying to maintain all of our equipment, ---I derserve a bonus after all this. My balls are on the chopping block every day! Sometimes I wish I was an employee at the bottom. It doesn't get any simpler than that. Punch in-Punch out, go home, file a 1040ez and smile, no worries but to manage the salary at home.

Arkie eye jerker

03-23-2002, 04:31 PM

ORIGINAL VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer
long, building his house and laying in supplies for
the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and
laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The
grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in
the cold.

MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer
long, building his house and laying in supplies for
the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and
laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press
conference and demands to know why the ant should be
allowed to be warm and well-fed while others are cold
and starving.

CBS, NBC and ABC show up to provide pictures of the
shivering
grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his
comfortable home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth,
this poor
grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper,
and
everybody cries when they sing, "It's Not Easy Being
Green."

Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the
ant's house, where the news stations film the group
singing, "We shall overcome."
Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for
the grasshopper's sake.

Al Gore exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings
that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the
grasshopper, and calls for an immediate tax hike on
the ant to make him pay his "fair share."
Finally, the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and
Anti-Grasshopper
Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate
number of
green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his
retroactive taxes, his
home is confiscated by the government.

Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the
grasshopper in a
defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried
before a panel of Federal judges that Bill had
appointed from a list of single-parent recipients.

The ant loses the case.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up
the last bits of the ant's food while the government
house he is in (which just happens to be the ant's old
house), crumbles around him because he doesn't
maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug-related
incident and the
house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of
spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.