Lake Mille Lacs / Sternberg Study

[JS]

A very interesting study here! I suggest that all Mille Lacs anglers read the study and understand it. It can be found under recommended reading on the PERM web site at http://www.perm.org/. This is truly a realistic approach to managing Mille Lacs. I don't agree with everything in the report but it does make sense. I want to hear your thoughts and suggestions.

[Schnauzer]

I'd just add a plea to please don't use this thread to flame the indians. I say that because I have watched several similar threads get axed after they filled up with mindless indian bashing.

I think a lot of people are worried about the Mille Lacs fishery. Declining baitfish numbers + huge big walleye population (if these two conditions are true) = trouble down the road.

It sure would be ironic to see a crash in the walleye population in the name of treaty management. It's an unfortunate situation. I hope the DNR is right and I hope the current situation of good numbers and good fishing continues. I hope we can all look back at this as an example of "the sky is falling" logic. I hate having to "hope" about all of this.

[JS]

The post is solely intended for all of us to understand Sternbergs views on managing the lake. It does make sense. I hope that we are all mature enough to leave the Native American bashing alone. Sternberg's study makes sense. We should by now accept the situation at hand and deal with it the best we can. I know I want the fishery around for my kids someday! Let's deal with this like the professionals we are!

[BlackSilver]

I like a lot of things about the Sternberg report, and don't agree with some other things. Take into account that he was paid to write it, and understand it is probably somewhat skewed by the 'agenda' of his clients.

SET the hook!!!

Hans/MN

[Beckman]

I agree, look at the people who paid this guy to write this up. They say the current regs are all about politics, well this study seems to be all about politics and personal agendas as well.

[JS]

I totally disagree! Politics and Personal Agenda??? Who cares if he was paid to write the report? Facts are facts! You obdviously didn't read the report. I am not trying to blow Sternberg here but facts are facts. Night fishing, culling, barbless hooks, warmer water release mortality rates, decreasing food sources... etc. This is about trying to get the DNR to think differently. -Again, I do not agree with everything in the report but let's be realistic. If you want this lake to be around, there needs to be a different mind set on managing the lake. I am sure suprised that there were not more posts here. With everyone *****ing about the regulations on Mille Lacs, why are there not more opinions? Hey Steve Fellegy, are you out there? What is your realistic opinion on this subject? Any other Mille-Lacs die hards? Whether you support Sternbergs study or not, don't you all think there needs to be a more realistic approach to managing the lake?

[Beckman]

I agree that there are many good facts that are in this study, and I did read the entire paper. I think Sternberg really ruined a credible paper when he put in quotes from resort owners and made the statement "Many resorters reported a 50- to 90-percent decline in business after the 2-inch slot was imposed." It's just not a very scientific study when he adds things like that. I mean that should be the topic of a altogether different paper, pay somebody else to do that one. The closer I read this paper the more I realize it's just stating what the DNR might be doing wrong and it offers some what-if scenarios just to cover all the bases.

Another thing I don't understand is how people complain about all the non slot fish dying from hooking mortality, then in the same breath they say there are too many big fish decimating the forage base, but how could that be if they are all dying from being hooked?

[JS]

I missed the quotes from the resort owners. -My bad. That is tacky but obdviously emotions come into play and that was probably Sternbergs way of plugging the resort owners. Those resort owners are not at all happy but they too have to deal with the situation at hand. I agree with you with regards to hookng mortality. More anglers need to be educated on how to release Walleyes. Too many Mille Lacs anglers are concerned with saving the #8 Gamagatsu (sp.?) hook that is lodged into the throats of the 25" walleye. They need to simply cut the line and get the fish back into the water immediately. Those fish will live. I see more people dig into the throats of Walleye with pliers. No wonder you see so many fish floating on top of the water. As far as big fish decimating the forage base, whether it is true or not, that will work in our favor. The DNR should look into a protected slot, not a harvest slot. How much harm will be done if for a year or two, we harvest 1 or 2 fish between 22-25 inches? Help me to keep this dialog going! Thanks for the reply Beckman.

[Capt. Kerk]

Every year I go up to Canada fishing where all hooks must be barbless. We may lose a few fish but very few if you keep the line tight. I think if you want to reduce the fish kill on Mille Lacs you need to think about doing this on Mille Lacs as well. Thats my personnal opinion.

[SUPERTROLLER]

Boy that was good reading! I know they can't because of the Treaty Rules they are under, but the solution appears to me that they need to go back to the 15" minimum and at least ONE over 20 regulations that they started with. I know the angler harvest would go above allowable levels in lbs. but the bait fish are dissappearing at such a drastic rate as to demand immediate attention. We lost our perch fishery on Lake Mi. and it is still just a shadow of what it was 10 years ago. Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana now have planting limits for Trout and Salmon. How much of this decline in perch was caused by different factors has been hotly debated. Gobie's, spiny water flea's, Ruffe, and disease are all possiblities that added to the demise of our perch. All we know is that adult perch are almost non-existent and without them you can't repopulate the lake! Those Big Walleye in Mille Lacs can easily eat big Perch. The small perch are being preyed upon by the smaller walleye and they aren't getting old enough to spawn. You've got to take more Walleye out of the food-chain as soon as possible. It won't/can't happen because of the Treaty, but it's pretty obvious, from the data that is charted, that the lake can sustain more harvest. Even though the Data is quite incomplete and highly debatable, it seems to consistently err on the low side for harvest targets. It needs to be changed.

[Beckman]

Great point about the protected vs. harvest slot. I agree with that 100%, I would think that a protected slot along with a three or four fish limit would also help keep harvest numbers down within the range that the DNR says they need to keep, and at the same time restore the predator/prey balance that everyone seems to be worried about. That's an idea that seems like a no brainer to me. Of course there will still be many complaints, about any management stratagy that is taken, there always is, and God know the DNR is not always right. All I know is that the fishing is great now and I don't really have the long-term concerns that others seem to have just brought up within the last year or so. It just bugs me when people say its headed for a major crash, "Red Lake #2" they say, "enjoy it while it lasts" and so on, I just don't see how they are drawing their conclusions. It seems like we have some similar ideas after all JS... good thing we didn't start bashing each other right away.

[JS]

Beckman, I would never think of basing anyone, especially you! I appreciate your comments. The people who say this lake is headed for a crash bug the ##### out of me. Those people are also the Indian bashers and the idiots who just don't have a clue. Sternberg mentioned the Protected slot in his study and that is really the way to go. Harvest or protected slot, same difference but a little different mind thought. The DNR should concentrate on Protecting walleyes, not harvesting walleyes! If they are so smart, then they will know when there is, for instance - a good 20-22" year class. Then let us harvest them and protect the 18-20" fish. Those are the ones that will be 20-22" next year anyway! -As far as the comment on barbless hooks, I for one do not agree with that because most fish swallow the hook anyway. -Just cut the ##### line and let 'em go. Like I said before, help me to keep this post going. I want to hear more opinions on this subject! Plus, who knows, maybe the DNR is reading some of the posts and they'll get some new ideas on the management of the lake and more importantly, ideas that will gain the support of Mille Lacs anglers. The DNR and the Mille Lacs anglers should not be fighting each other!

[Leechboy]

Man, that is some scary stuff. To me it emphasises that to have stable and sustainable fisheries, we need to manage the entire "food chain", and not just focus on individual species. I have heard that we are suffering dramatic decreases in Perch populations across the great lakes (Green Bay, Milwaukee, Chequamegon Bay, ect..). I'm freaking myself out here. Are Perch populations in general declining in our region, or are these localized fluctuations that can be attributed to events within each body of water that has declining populations? Help Me:)-lb

[Beckman]

I've got some more to add on the hook issue. I, for one am going to experiment with circle hooks on my live bait rigs this year. I don't know if many people have tried this yet for walleye, but they seem to have high hooking percentages for other species, and always in the side of the mouth, and without even setting the hook. I could see circle hooks catching on fast if they work, could actually make it easier to hook fish. Of course, I (like everyone else) don't like missing fish, so if they don't work you can forget it.

[Fish_on]

You say you would never think of bashing anyone, then in your very next sentence you call the people who disagree with you "idiots who don't have a clue."

Sorry but you lost your right to a civil discussion with that kind of statement. Then you state that you want more people's opinions to keep the discussion going. I can only assume that means you want more opinions that are the same as yours, unless you are hoping that more people will disagree with you so you can call them idiots without a clue, too.

Well I for one will disagree with you whether you call me names or not. The DNR should NOT be in the business of "protecting walleyes" as you say. They should be in the business of sustaining a long-term harvest at the highest level possible while balancing predator-prey realtionships, which is normally done by regulating predator harvest. That's good natural resources management; good stewardship of Mille Lacs walleyes. This should be done with sound biology, and politics must be entirely left out of the equation. That's not what's happening now at Mille Lacs and we are going to pay for it down the road.

[Dave in Mpls]

How can a lake with a declining baitfish population NOT be heading for a crash???? I don't know that walleyes eat manna.....

[Beckman]

Fish_on: You should really state your opinion before assuming others don't agree with it. I just don't care for all the negative attitudes when this subject comes up. That being said, I will disagree with your opinion that the DNR should manage Mille Lacs for long-term harvests at the highest level possible. You make it sound like a commercial fishing operation when you say it like that, although this may be what some people want, I really don't think this is what most Mille Lacs anglers want. Its status as a trophy fishery will go down the tubes if managed this way. I think if Mille Lacs loses that big fish reputation it will lose a majority of it's anglers, not like the few anglers who now do not fish it because of the narrow slot.

[Ben]

Bashing Indians or promoting and encouraging folks to get involved in politics are 2 very different things. Don't stick your head in the sand. Fishermen, we are only in this mess because of the amount of walleyes we are allowed. We are in a competition for the fish, with the group who has control right now...doesn't matter who they are...don't care. The only bargaining chip we have is to put presure on the competition by proposing MN legalize gambling or trying to get some sort of tax on casino money out of it. It is always about the money!!!! Don't ever believe it isn't. If their money source had competition, things would change. We could run the lake like it should be run...if theright decisions are made by the DNR....what a mess!!

[Fish_on]

I stated my opinion clearly in the post from which this one spun off. Here it is again:

"When you start managing a fishery with politics instead of biology, it's the beginning of the end. Unfortunately, there are some year classes of fish showing up in some areas that are obviously malnourished. This might remain localized or it might be early symptoms of things to come. Yes, fishing is phenomenal now, but the lake simply cannot support huge numbers of large fish because there isn't the forage base available for that many large fish. I hope we are not seeing the typical flare-up before a crash, but it's possible that's what's happening: the predator-prey balance is out of whack and the size structure of walleyes is tilted towards large fish. Great in the short term, bad in the long term. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we are headed for a crash within 3-5 years if some changes are not made."

Mille Lacs, by its very nature, will be a big fish lake if it is properly managed, meaning there will be trophies available. Big fish and high sustainable yield are NOT mutually exclusive. The bottom line is that most people who go walleye fishing want to take some fish home to eat. Just ask the resort owners if you don't believe that. The chance at a trophy fish is a bonus to them. People who want to only CPR trophy walleyes are a tiny minority in the overall scheme of things. Good fisheries management should be geared towards sustainable yield, because that's what most fishermen want, and that's what's best for the overall health and balance of the fishery. Mille Lacs is out of balance, and it's being mismanaged, which is providing fantastic catch and release fishing in the short-term, but the present managment will lead to disaster in the long run. If the resort owners think they have it bad now, just wait a few years.

[JS]

I lost my right to a civil discussion??? If you look back, I am the one who said "NO INDIAN BASHING". I think the people who bash the Indians ARE Idiots! And for you to say that the DNR should not be in the business of "protecting Walleyes", you are crazy! I want to see more opinions, any opinions. I don't care if you agree with me or not. I am sick and tired of Mille Lacs anglers complaining about the regs. and not doing anything about it. I for one was in those same shoes about 3 or 4 years ago. I didn't care because I didn't think my opinion would do any good. Now look at where we are at? 4 walleyes between 16 and 18 inches??? That's nuts! Read Sternbergs study and think realistically about it. Look at the post that Beckman wrote... He said that every time this subject comes up, there are a bunch of negative attitudes... -Well look in the mirror. I agree with you that there needs to be a long term sustained harvest with a balanced predator prey relationship. That is exactly why I said the DNR needs to be in the business of protecting walleyes. I did not say ALL Walleyes! Read my posts and you may understand. In the future, please read all of the posts before accusing me of loosing my right to a civil discussion. -And one other point, Should politics be left out of the equasion? I hate all the political B.S. but it just may be a good politician that could really lobby and put up a good fight for our cause at Mille Lacs. -Hey Beckman, what do you think?

[JS]

Beckman, I have used circle hooks and they seem to work very well. I used eagle claw. -I think they were the khale hooks in size 8 and 10. They did have barbs but if I remember correctly, many fish were hooked right in the side of the mouth for easy hook removal. Are you thinking of using barbless circle hooks? Just curious... FYI, it will be a good spring to experiment because I'm sure you'll catch fish on whatever you drop to the bottom!

[SUPERTROLLER]

You got that right Dave. The declining weights of the bigger fish also indicate they are not sustaining a normal growth rate. That's why it's hard to find those 28 inch + fish. They aren't growing that big anymore!

[Beckman]

I don't think it is right for either of us to assume what the majority of Mille Lacs anglers want. Of course alot of people want to be able to keep some fish to eat, we all do, but I find it hard to believe that people will drive 100+ miles or more just to catch fish to eat out of Mille Lacs when they can do it in their own backyard, I think they must be going there for the big fish. Personally I've notice more people on the lake in the last few years than I ever did before the slot, if this is truely the case how to you explain your reasoning?

Right now I think Mille Lacs does have big fish and high sustainable yield. In my experience in the last year I've caught about an even number of slot and small fish as I did large fish 20+". Maybe this is not the ideal balance, but I don't think it will mean disaster in the long run. What do you mean when you say it's headed for disaster in the long run? No more walleyes? Explain to me what is going to happen? Baitfish populations fluctuate every year regardless of predator fish, all of the sudden there will be a good baitfish hatch and people will think that the lake has "crashed", because the fish aren't biting as good as the have been the last couple years. The mayflies seemed to make it last year, as they always do, you would think that the walleyes would have gobbled up every last mayfly if they had nothing to eat. If these fish were really starving, I would think that they should be even easier to catch than they are now.

[SUPERTROLLER]

You can go back and re-read the article again and see that the average weight of the fish over 20" has been declining. This indicates to me that the baitfish population is crashing. What is going to spawn these new cycles of baitfish you magically think are going to reappear if the numbers of baitfish aren't there to start with and the massive numbers of Walleye are still present to feed on what's left? Any lake will only support so many pounds of biomass in the food chain. If the majority is taken up in predator species, it results in an unbalanced ecosystem. Your minnows, perch, and tulibee's are going fast, leaving a vast disparity with the remaining Walleye, Pike, Bass, and Muskie poundage in the lake.

[Fish_on]

Buddy, if you are catching one slot fish for every fish over 20 inches, you had better get in every single tournament that comes to Mille Lacs this year because you are absolutely the best Mille Lacs walleye fisherman ever and you will win them all. In about a dozen trips to Mille Lacs last year, I ran about 12 to one in favor of fish over the slot.

Your claim that there are more anglers out there is bogus too. Just ask the resort owners if they agree with you. If that were true, they would have never hired a bilologist to study it. You seem to be pulling opinions out of the air, and like JS, they are all over the chart.

I don't see any point in continuing this discussion any further.

[Dave in Mpls]

Yeah, it is a mess! A agree with you about the money side. Here's my thinking....Why hasn't the DNR entered into some mutual contract with the bands to buy them out? What is the market value of 100,000 lbs of walleyes? $300,000? $500,000? More? Balance that with the millions that are being lost in tourism. I just don't understand it!

Regards

[Beckman]

I wish I could win a tournament with small fish, everybody knows it will take big fish to win on Mille Lacs this year, but that is another topic altogether. Not once did I claim that my opinions were right on, if that was the case it would be fact, I base my opinions on my experience on the lake, which is about 30 days a year. I thought this would be a good place to share each others opinions on the subject just to see where everyone is coming from. That's fine if you don't want to discuss it any further, all you have to do is not type, however I do still hope others will continue to discuss this if they have anything to contribute, I don't think all the ideas and opinions have been exhausted yet, I know I could keep talking about this.

About the baitfish thing, I have read that you do not need large amounts of baitfish to begin with to have a good hatch, weather conditions are a bigger factor than the spawning population of baitfish as far as that goes. I'd have to research it further to see for sure if this applies for the baitfish native to Mille Lacs.

[JS]

Fish On, what is your problem? First of all you tell me that I have "lost my right to a civil discussion", and now you tell Beckman that he is "pulling opinions out of the air" and that there is no point in continuing the discussion? -What's up? I for one think it is very important that we keep this discussion going. You seem to be the one who is only interested in one opinion, yours! You seem to be so caught up in how many Walleyes you can keep to eat. You should be able to find other bodies of water that you can keep Walleyes. And I would have to agree with Beckman that there seems to be more people fishing the lake. The resort owners are probably seeing less business because more and more anglers are doing day trips or camping. Hey, I feel bad for the resort owners but are you actually saying that if people could keep a boat-load of fish, then the resort business would go back to normal? I don't think that opinion is very popular. As I said before, the Mille Lacs Walleyes need to be Protected. -Not all of them, just a select few each year. -And what is the deal with the Tournament comment to Beckman? Where did that come from. Who ever said he was a tournament fisherman. I wonder why some people even fish tournaments on the lake? You could go out on the lake, catch a whole load of fish, keep a few, take lots of pictures, then go have a nice dinner and a beer and the whole time, you didn't have to worry about catching your slot limit and getting your big fish, and winning some money. Fishing will always be called fishing, not catching. I think you are a little to worked up about catching. -And by the way, if you are a resort owner, I wish you all the best in 2002 and I truly hope there will be a way in which your business will again flourish.

[tk]

Ironic...most lakes the DNR stocks with walleyes...mille lacs will have to be stocked with perch for the walleyes...

[JP]

These are just a few random thoughts, take them for what you will, and I am NOT an Indian basher, so don't go there.
Anyone checked out the west side of MIlle Lacs lately? All the once thriving resorts now closed, looked like a goast town this past winter.
If you all remember, the court system has forced the DNR to keep the harvest at this magic number that they need to come up with using inaccurate data. The non-band fisherman gets to deal with the harvest slots and regs.
My two sons don't want to fish Mille Lacs anymore, last year my 9 year old caught over 25 walleyes summer and winter fishing, kept 2. I don't care what you say, that is not fun for a 9 yr old.
Sterberg's report is one of the best reports I've seen on Mille Lacs, what has the DNR shown us lately?

[MnWalleyeKiller]

Heres my 2 cents,
I have fished mille lacs now for a number of years. I have seen the lake change and it has been for the better. The DNR in my eyes have done a fine job with this slot limit. They are trying to protect the lake from overharvest which is understandable. The treaty is here to stay and we better learn to live with it. There are plenty of fat 28+ fish in this lake there is NO shortage. With regards to the forage, the walleyes are going to have to persue other prey thats all. There are plenty of ciscos in the lake to sustain. This is my point of view and take it however you will. Personally I have heard nothing but praise for the DNR about how this slot has been implemented. I am sorry you had to have your son throw those walleyes back thats a bummer for kids I understand. If your upset, take him to leech and make him stare at nothing and then see how much he likes it. People should not be complaining about catching too many "big" walleyes.
Good luck this spring!


MN Walleye