Ban on driveway carwashing

[Red Ruffandsore]

On the news today was a report of few Toronto councillors attempting to push through an all out ban on washing cars in driveways. Their concern is that the lifting agents in soaps are not broken down even if the soap is biodegradeable. They make their way into the rivers and lakes. Because driveway runoff goes directly into the waterways as opposed to car wash water which is put through the sewage system.

Since I cannot fit my vehicles through any conventional car wash....I'm in a bit of a predicament, regardless of the proposed law changes. What will I do?


Stay off the pipe...and don't forget to wipe.

Red

[Water Dog]

Vote the idiots out of office .
Protest this lunacy .
Wash your ride with pride .
Get a lawyer and go to court . That way we can see how FREE MEN live . And when you get on TV , we can rally around your cause .

[WAeyes]

Wash your truck on the front lawn. No need to irrigate the grass either.

[targa2]

What kind of vehicle do you have?I lave a 2500 Dodge and I go through the carwash if I'm lazy that day. I use the manual powerwash if I want a thorough cleaning.

Where in T.O. are you?I live about 40 minutes east of there.

[Cangl]

Your lawn would appreciate and your vote can fix it. Cripes Canada is starting to sound like California. Too many idiots having infleunce will bankrupt your country as well as any state. Common sense first and laws would seldom be used.....or created for that matter.

How did the Toronto board of commissioners vote on the "rings" of Saturn? Did they figure they should tolerate those or what?

[Silentsixty]

Wash in the grass/undrained gravel. Among other things, biodegradable means the material will use oxygen as it breaks down. Too little oxygen and our fishy friends or their dinner suffers. If your the only one dumping some suds into the creek or ditch, not such a big deal. When it's a fair portion of a subdivision, water quality impacts can be significant.

Relatively new EPA regs require larger cities to ban commercial vehicle washing but allows them to exempt residential washing. Not sure why. Fun part is figuring out what to do with "Charity" carwashes.

Biodegradable doesn't necessary mean it's ok to discharge to streams or waterways. It simply means it will decompose. Too much stuff decomposing all at once uses all avail 02.

[Thumper]

Those TO councillers have way too much time on their hands. Sounds like those Schad people (instumental in the Spring Bear Hunt cancellation) are mixed in with this some how.If they are post it on the board....we can send down a few hundred unemployed bear guides and a few thousand nuisance bears to picket city hall. It'll be a friendly rally and the good people of Toronto will get to see some real Northeners and real bears. LOL

[Car Wash Owner]

We have been donating money to the Riverside Foundation for years who are actively lobbying the various powers that be to get the practice of washing vehicles in your driveway made illegal. We also agree 100% with their mercury in dentists office strategy. Washing your car at the local car wash makes an environmental statement. Keep Toronto clean and beautiful......Support your local car wash. We have special bays for oversize vehicles and also provide custom washing and detailing.

[SUPERTROLLER]

It couldn't be that you have the motive of making an extra dollar or two could it? My driveway doesn't drain into the street so why should I be banned from washing there just so the local carwash owner can line his pocket in green.

[KP]

Once again those cheap, lazy, excuse making people who don't want to be inconvienenced for the sake of environmental protection, ##### about RADICAL LIBRAL legislation intended to protect the waterways we fish and the air we breath. What a surprise.

[targa2]

Talk to me about the mercury amalgam thing a little more.I finally got my dentist to admit (sort of) that amalgam breaks down and causes mercury vapours to be released while chewing.Seems to be a hot topic with naturopathic types.Destroys the immune system and so forth.

[Car Wash Owner]

http://www.riversides.org/review/riversides/initiatives.htm

[Silentsixty]

The carwash owner was likely generalizing when they mentioned "washing in driveways". Sure they stand to benefit, but as a conservationist, I think the cause is worthy. Someone almost always benefits from any new law.

Any regulation would probably be worded to reference no discharge to the storm sewer system or surface waters. Nothing wrong with discharging to your yard or a combined sewer, trouble is trying to explain the difference between sanitary, storm, and combined sewers to people who are not in the business.

Would you take a bucket of used soapy water from washing your car and dump it at the boat ramp on a busy day? There are a lot of situations where the discharge of a limited amount of wash water wouldn't hurt a thing, trouble is there are a lot of situations where it might. How do you write a regulation to allow exceptions? Kinda like size limits - their great until you have a gut hooked bleeder that you must release (I was taught if you kill it, you eat it.)- we must accept that some rules are for the greater good even when they don't seem applicable to our situation.

Non-point source pollution is considered the biggest source of water pollution and is just starting to be addressed on a large scale. Our streams and lakes are generally much cleaner now than they were 30 yrs ago after we addressed the point source stuff. In 30 more years, after the stormwater pollution issues have been addressed to the extent that is reasonably possible, things will be even better.

The mercury filling thing is not something I'm very knowledgeable about. However, just to mention it, with new "ultra-clean" sampling techniques for Hg, it is well established that vapors from Hg fillings in the technicians mouth can impact analysis results on WATER samples. Before anyone starts yanking out teeth - methyl mercury is the big environmental concern, while elemental mercury reacts with stuff in the environment to create methyl Hg, I don't think it's an issue while it's in your mouth. Best thing we can do is properly dispose of old flourescent tubes & Hg vapor lamps. Do not buy Hg thermometers. I believe the largest source of Hg water pollution is atmospheric deposition - originates from burning coal.

[Silentsixty]

The link posted by the Carwash Owner also has some good dentist/Hg info.

[River_eye]

I wash my car on the driveway, but I don't use soap, so it makes no difference. Just a brush attachment for my hose, gets the car just as clean.

I can understand banning the soaps, but not driveway washing alltogether.

[Silentsixty]

This has been a subject of discussion among regulators in my area of the US. Our current position (for commercial applications ranging from car dealerships, sidewalk/parking lot washing)is you can rinse with cold water w/o soap, but if we ever happen by and test your wastewater & find oil, your in trouble.

The argument is that you are introducing the "dirt" in a large volume during dry weather conditions. When it washes off during rains, you get the benefit of "natural dilution". Again, the solution is to wash in the yard. No runoff, recharge groundwater, irrigate lawn, it's win/win - if you have a suitable yard.

[Water Treatment Guy]

Paraphrasing from 4 pg article in May/June 02 Stormwater Journal. This (newest) issue is not avail on-line yet but should be soon. www.stormh2o.com

.... How do detergents...affect fish populations?

...through the power of surfactants to destroy the external mucus layers protecting the fish from bacteria and parasites, not to mention severe damage to the gills....detergents reduce surface tension in water...allowing organic chemical such as pesticides and phenols to be more easily absorb by the fish...popular phenol based surfactants have been identified by Environment Canada and USEPA as possible endocrine disrupters...end result being that aquatic species are not able to reproduce.

[Water Dog]

They can't get the hookers or drug dealers off the street , so they go after the poor smuck cleaning his car .
Hookers spread STD's and AIDS . The drug dealers create zombies who spend most of their time breaking in and stealing from the poor smuck trying to wash his car .
We KNOW the hookers and drug dealers are bad for society . We think the car wash thing , MIGHT BE BAD .
OH MY ! OH CANADA !
Get a GRIP Toronto

[Chris]

Sooooo, nothing else that is bad should be done/addressed until we get the drug dealers and hookers off the street?

[River_eye]

You're wisdom amazes me! Why didn't we think of that before! Let's round up every drug dealer, and get every oz. of cocaine, heroin and anything else that's harmful on our streets first, then go after the finer details.

Sorry to say Water Dog, but Drug dealers don't create addicts they just support them, it's our society (which happens to be capatalist) which allows many people to slip through the cracks.

That sounds funny, an American telling Canada that they should clean up their drug problems!

Sorry to keep harping on you, and I mean no disrespect to other americans, but you make it so easy.

[Water Dog]

The councilmen (or ladies) never address the real environmental problems like sewer overflow during heavy rains or snow melt .
My point is simple . This drive way ban does not address the problem .
It costs nothing to implement and sounds good , however it is just a political ploy and offers no real benefit .
We have many more serious problems and bans on lawnmovers , back yard cooking , drive way washing are just style over substance .
Your outboard motor is next , then your tow vehicle .
How about some investment in the future ?
Oh , and try to use your spell check feature .

[BlackSilver]

I always wash my vehicles in the back yard. Just watching that foamy detergent go down the storm drain raises visions of green crap growing in the lake about a mile away.

SET the hook!!!

Hans/MN

[serious]

Want to save the earth? Don't burn gas in your outboard. Don't use gas to get to the landing. Sell your car. Ride a bike in the snow or walk. Don't flush. Paddle a canoe. Use natural fishline. The earth will appreciate it.

[Water Dog]

Sewer overflow during rain storms and heavy snow melt is a REAL problem that many cities have not figured out how to address .
Style over substance environmental legislation will not solve or reduce the problem .
No politician wants to tell future voters that they will have to pay for digging up the streets .
It is easier to sound nicey-nice to the environment with silly proposals .
Vote in leaders who will lead and propose real solutions .