View Full Version : 870 12ga w/ cantilever rifled barrel
I am scratching my head. I have shot 6-7 different brands of bullets thru this thing and none are grouping with a hoot. Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady,
Getting spendy trying to find a sabot slug that flys true time after time....
Rednek_
10-25-2009, 08:38 PM
What is your group size and the target distance?
Is your barrel lug nut tight?
Are the ring screws tight?
Are you using a quality scope that can take the punishment?
Are you shooting from a good rest? It's tough to beat a lead sled.
2Labs
10-25-2009, 08:57 PM
I sent one barrel back to Remington on my 870 Wingmaster for the same reason. I went through $90 worth of various sabot slugs back in 2000 trying to make that barrel work (Federals, Remingtons, Winchesters, a good foreign brand whose name I cannot recall right now, etc.).
The replacement barrel (Remington replaced the original at no cost to me) was a little better, but not much. Gander did sell me an assortment of sabot slugs at their cost to make up for the $90 I spent testing the first barrel. But I was still disappointed in the groups the second fully rifled barrel produced (I tested it with the same assortment of slugs that I tested the first barrel).
I got fed up with the fully rifled barrels and replaced THAT second fully rifled barrel with a Remington smoothbore cantilevered barrel with RemChokes. I figured I would at least have more control over the tightness of the muzzle with a particular choke. I then shot that 3rd barrel with regular old-style rifled slugs through an Improved Cylinder choke just to see what would happen (Remington Sluggers at $1.99 for 5 at the time -- $2.99 for 5 currently). Even those Sluggers produced much improved accuracy over the second fully rifled barrel with its sabot slugs.
Then I switched out the Improved Cylinder Choke and put in a Rifled Choke. I shot the grey Winchester sabot slugs through it ($6.99 a box of 5 at the time). That produced consistent 3-shot one-ragged-hole groups at 50 yards. I stayed with this setup and went and bought a bunch of the Winchester sabots so I would have a good supply.
This was back in 2000.
A few years later a buddy of mine was going through the same problem with his fully rifled cantileverd barrel on an 11-87. I talked him into trying the same approach I used (cantilevered with Rem Chokes). His problem went away. He now uses the Rifled Choke tube with sabot slugs for deer and uses the same barrel and scope with a Turkey Choke for hunting turkeys (he has to change the setting of his scope when he makes the switch as the slug setting for the Rifled Choke with sabots does not match the point of impact for the Turkey Choke with #4 shot -- a pretty common occurrence). He has a Leupold 2x7 scope and it moves settings back and forth very consistently when he switches from deer to turkey hunting.
Some folks get lucky with their fully rifled barrels and swear they are getting 1-hole groups at 100 yards. I have seen 3 out of 3 (my 2 and my buddy's 1) that weren't worth a darn.
Just some thoughts for you to consider.
Oh, and one more point. The plastic of the sabot will start to fill both the lands of the fully rifled barrel and the lands of the Rifled Choke after a few rounds. You will need to scrub the lands out with a brass brush and some plastic wad remover to keep the accuracy up regardless of which method you use. I do this after 8-10 rounds at the shooting range.
Suzuki
10-27-2009, 01:26 PM
I have heard nothing but good things about Hastings barrel replacements for 870's.
Papascott
10-28-2009, 08:20 AM
Chad, I have an 1100 with full rifle cant barrel. It likes copper solids but LOVES lightfields. The lightfields do not have the distance that the others have but sure makes up for it in accuracy.
Are you shooting 2 3/4 or 3" ? Tell us a little more about your set up, scope rings etc etc.
What is your group size and the target distance?
Is your barrel lug nut tight?
Are the ring screws tight?
Are you using a quality scope that can take the punishment?
Are you shooting from a good rest? It's tough to beat a lead sled.
At 50 yards and 100 yds I may have 2-3 within reason and then 2-3 flyers about 5-7 " out (up/down/left/right/).
All tight
Leupold scope
Lead Sled
Oh, and one more point. The plastic of the sabot will start to fill both the lands of the fully rifled barrel and the lands of the Rifled Choke after a few rounds. You will need to scrub the lands out with a brass brush and some plastic wad remover to keep the accuracy up regardless of which method you use. I do this after 8-10 rounds at the shooting range.
I guessed that could be a problem and I cleaned er out after my lat depressing outing and will give it another try once the wind dies down or the rain stops.
Chad, I have an 1100 with full rifle cant barrel. It likes copper solids but LOVES lightfields. The lightfields do not have the distance that the others have but sure makes up for it in accuracy.
Are you shooting 2 3/4 or 3" ? Tell us a little more about your set up, scope rings etc etc.
I have shot all 2 3/4. ( Federal Fusion & Barnes Expander/Remington)
870 Remingrton 12ga, cantilever scope mount\
Leupold Rifleman scope
Going to try Lightfield, Hornady and Win
But as another post mentioned my problems could all be from plastic fouling thebarel. Got er cleaned and will give it a shot.
Rednek_
10-28-2009, 06:09 PM
At 50 yards and 100 yds I may have 2-3 within reason and then 2-3 flyers about 5-7 " out (up/down/left/right/).
All tight
Leupold scope
Lead Sled
What kinda group is within reason?
Do the flyers kinda group themselves together? If they do then.....
How many consecutive shots are you making? The barrel heat could be creating a "mirage" and changing your optical point of aim.
Have you tried shooting a group with cleaning the barrel between shots? Barrell fouling could be changing the point of impact?
Everything can be tight but if there are max tolerences between the receiver and the barrel, rings and the mount, mis-align rings causing a bind on the scope or internal scope issues, the recoil from 2 or 3 shots could cause slight movements that will move back in other 2-3 shots.
Also keep in mind that you are shooting a shotgun and not a rifle. The trigger pull is over 6#, a mile of creep, and a slow lock time all of which result in reduced accuracy, especially when we are enticipating the recoil of a slug gun even though the 'lead sled' tames the slug gun down to a .243.
I'm extremely happy with 4" 3-shot groups at 100 from my 870 Super Slug gun using my reloads. 6-8" groups at 100 yards still normally means a dead deer.
Keep "Sluggin" Away
[QUOTE=Rednek_;1145007I'm extremely happy with 4" 3-shot groups at 100 from my 870 Super Slug gun using my reloads. 6-8" groups at 100 yards still normally means a dead deer.
Keep "Sluggin" Away[/QUOTE]
I cleaned the barrel after each box. The Hornady SST 2 3/4 300 grain were the best. 3 within an inch of each other. One was about 6 inches to the left and nother was 4 inches high. Call it good!
Rednek_
10-28-2009, 07:07 PM
No...Call it a Dead Deer
Good Luck
Super Jigger
11-09-2009, 09:57 AM
This may be to late to help for this year, but here goes. Based on my experience and a considerable investment, here are some suggestions and commentary. Sabot slugs are imperfect ammo. Flyers can happen and it has nothing to do with the gun or shooter. If the manufacturer trims the plastic just a hair bigger or smaller, it will have an effect on how that particular round performs. Also, to eliminate gun and shooter variables, you want to eliminate as much "movement" from the gun as possible. I have epoxied my barrel to my reciever (12 guage 870) and had a screw installed into my magazine cap to eliminate movement. Magazine cap tightness, or lack there of, will effect groups and accuracy. Also - have your trigger pull lightened. It really helps. Make sure your scope is good and installed correctly. If you tighten it to much, you can create problems. Cheap scopes also wear out under the stress of the recoil on these guns, which I describe as severe. I like Luepold 2x7's. Shoot from a good base. I have a lead sled, but I don't think it helps accuracy and it is hard on the scope. Buy a good recoil pad, get some sand bags, and make sure you hold down the barrel. You can't lay it on a rest and shoot like a rifle. You have to hold it down. I shoot better with bags (vs. Lead Sled), but it hurts more. On the scope mount, use a cantilever or have it mounted right to the receiver. Nothing else.
Now, if you have a Remington factory rifled slug barrel, it is what I would call a slower twist barrel. I am not familiar with 20 guage twists, but can speak about 12 guage. The 12 guage Remington barrel is a 1 in 34" twist. Most of the time, this barrel will perform better with slower slugs, say 1700 FPS or less. I could not get the results I wanted with that barrel or the Hastings barrels with the 1900 FPS slugs as both at slower twist barrels. I now shoot a 1 in 26" barrel with fast slugs, but found that my gun doesn't like every brand. It likes the 2 3/4 Federal Barnes 1900 FPS. Believe me, I tried them all to compare. Barrel length is also a factor on sabot performance.
I would suggest you try the Winchester copper solids (not Partition Golds or XP3) and see how they do. Also - supposedly, Remington's new Accu Tips are made for Remington barrels. My fast twist barrel did not like them, however, my back-up gun (Benelli Nova - 1 in 28" twist) did, but that gun likes several kinds of slugs, but never shoots better than 4 inch groups with any of them. I have found that different brands of sabots can have dramatically different results in the same gun. So much that if you had to change brands during a hunt, you might miss a deer clean at 100 yards.
While shooting at the range, I clean with a bore snake every three to five shots. I spray it with muzzleloader cleaner because it gets the plastic out of the rifling. I will only clean my slug guns (and rifles) from the breech to the muzzle. Never the other way. Barrel heat can also be a factor. Take your time and let your barrel stay cool. Have someone else load the gun and occasionally not put one in to see if your flinching or jerking the trigger.
I like the option to reach out 200 yards, but in reality, have never shot a deer past 150 yards with a sabot and the majority of my kills have been under 50 yards, where any speed sabot gets it done. Shotguns shooting sabots are not rifles. They kick harder and don't shoot as accurately, but for a lot of us, are the only option to put venison on the table. If I could legally use a rifle, I would trade my shotgun in tomorrow...
Lastly, practice really helps. The more you shoot, the better you will shoot. Good luck and I hope you find a load that works in your gun and that you don't become as compulsive as I have on this issue. If my wife only knew...