9.9 kicker problem

[rebs]

1986 evinrude kicker 9.9
primer bulb only gets hard sometimes, other times will not pump up. I replaced the hose, both fittings and the bulb. the carb float is not stuck, no gas leaks at either fitting or motor itself. today bulb pumped up hard, motor started on first pull and trolled for about half an hour then the motor ran out of gas. I tried squeezing the primer bulb and it would not get hard, only pump a small amount of gas to motor, the motor would run about a minute or so and run out of gas again

what could possibly be causing this ?

[Chucker57]

Must have a leak some where or a float that only sticking part of the time. Is there a fuel filter in the tank?

[Hot Runr Guy]

by any chance are you using a separate tank for your 9.9? I'm wondering if there is a fuel pick-up problem in the tank, maybe the dip tube has a crack or is broken off.
HRG

[Tim_Kelly]

Air vent on separate tank plugged?

[perchjerker]

another possibility is a leaking fuel pump diaphram.

Comon Bob, just buy the Bigfoot LOL

[skeeter]

Reb give me a call 989 827 2681

[skeeter]

Here is what I did to my 9.9 mariner 1998 4 Stroke still doesn't work. :(

I have had a problem with my 9.9 kicker all summer. This last spring I took the motor to a marina to have them work on it. Problem started out like this. Run along and it would either stall or almost stall. If I got to the gas squeeze bulb and squeezed it before it would stall it would run along for a few min. I could not run it wide open it would stall. Ok. They worked on it and said they found something in the seat plugging it off. They said they over hauled the carb. Would sit in the tank at home and run fine. Take it out to troll and it would die. Took it back and they tear it appart again. Found nothing. Put it in the water at the ramp and it would run but it wasn't under load. Took it out and same thing. Run along and die. Well I desided to tear into it myself. Wasn't easy to find parts but did find parts, got some all over the US at different marinas. I replaced the float, I replaced the pin that goes through the float because it looked like someone pounded it in and was bent. Was hard to get out. I replaced it thinking got it now. I replaced the seat although I could not find the needle. Replaced the squeeze bulb and hose and even the piece that the gas line connects to on the motor, replaced the vent. Put a 10 micron filter in it. Replaced two rubber pieces in the fuel pump. Ran it in my garage in a garbage can it purs like a kitten. I go out fishing the motor wouldn't start so I used the electric that day. Come home had had wife turn key while I chocked it at the motor starts right off. All set now, I go fishing. Motor starts right up and runs for 2.5 min and I have to squeeze the bulb again. Every 2.5 sec squeeze bulb. Got tired and discourged and came in. ANY ideas out there ANYTHING before I have a nervous breakdown????? Even call me if you can or email me. I hate thing broken down.. Thanks so much in advance for any help. Nels Larsen Midland, MI 989 837 2681 or skeeter185@charter.net

[yarcraft91]

Nels:

Did you have Pangborn Marine on M-20 work on that Mariner?

My buddy and I each have 15 horse 1997 Mariner kickers- IIRC, those are almost identical to your motor. Ours would start and idle OK, but bog down and stall when we put them under load. Pangborns helped us get those running right- short story, lots of carbon in the exhaust system.

Check the two exhaust relief ports on the back of the motor- one of mine constantly plugs with carbon and it makes the motor harder than heck to start. I drill out that port after every trolling trip (1/8" bit turned by hand). Also, the timing linkage wire between fast idle cam and ignition can easily be (and in my case was) installed upside down and that screws up the ignition timing, particularly at starting.

I visited your place earlier this year to pick up some cleaning supplies- I might be able to drop by again and look at that motor if the advice above isn't helpful. PM me BEFORE you have a nervous breakdown.

[rebs]

Nels
you can also try this place for a fuel pump

http://www.crowleymarine.com/

[skeeter]

Sorry to steal your post Rebs :)


Nov 20
I don't know if it is the fuel pump but I found one and am going to put it on. Then I can rest assured it that isn't the problem.. To be honest I have already put the diaphragms in the old pump. Still had the problem. So the search is on for the problem.



Nov 20
Went out this afternoon and replaced ALL hoses all the way to carb from the kicker tank (6 gal). Cut the hoses open and found nothing wrong with the inside at least what I could see. I then pumped up the bulb hard. Oh one thing I did notice is I tried to blow into the gas tank using the hose and I couldn't. I hope there is a check valve there. Must be because I could suck gas up. Waiting for new fuel pump to come UPS but am going to go to ramp tomorrow and let it run again just to see if I had fixed anything.

[yarcraft91]

Skeeter:

If you have trouble with the motor tomorrow, try by-passing that new 10 micron filter- doesn't sound like something that was part of the orginal package that served you for so long and it will add some resistance to the pump pulling fuel into the motor.

[skeeter]

Sure will try that. Although I did blow through it tonight very very easy. :( lolol Be so glad when I figure this one out. Probably something simple No take that back I have tried all the easy stuff.

[skeeter]

Took boat to ramp today and ran it. Same problem. This is fun. :)

[yarcraft91]

Skeeter:

When you replaced the fuel pump diaphragms, did you also clean, replace or test the check valves in the pump?

[skeeter]

No, I just replaced the parts as I didn't know how to test it for sure.

[yarcraft91]

Since you have a new pump coming, it should have good check valves.

If you have the pump type I expect, the check valves are two small flaps held in place by phillips head screws, mounted on the pump body piece with the inlet and outlet hose nipples. It should be possible to remove the screws and inspect/clean the mating surfaces. If you did that, that's about as much as you can do.

[skeeter]

Thats exactly what it looks like. I cleaned everything to the best of my knowledge. A guy told me today to unhook the fuel hose from the kicker. Pump up the bulb and it should be still hard in the morning. SO I went out and did that.

[yarcraft91]

The coupler(s) on the fuel hose- have those been replaced?

[skeeter]

Yes

[B-lou]

Skeeter ...have you checked your valve clearance....B-lou

[skeeter]

No I haven't only reason is it will run so well you can count the revolutions as it runs. Very smooth.

[skeeter]

From now on when I go fishing I will first have to find a primer guy to go along. Lolol Bill B. The bulb was hard this morning. SO I would have to think everything down there would be ok. I can easily suck gas up through so should be no problem there. This is starting to be like a mystery book. Stay tuned for next chapter FUELPUMP. Nels

[skeeter]

I signed up to this online manual. Selco :

General






The problem most often seen with fuel pumps is fuel starvation, hesitation or missing due to inadequate fuel pressure/delivery. In extreme cases, this might lead to a no start condition, but that is pretty rare as the primer bulb should at least allow the operator to fill the float bowl or vapor separator tank). More likely, pump failures are not total, and the motor will start and run fine at idle, only to miss, hesitate or stall at speed when pump performance falls short of the greater demand for fuel at high rpm.

Before replacing a suspect fuel pump, be absolutely certain the problem is the pump and NOT with fuel tank, lines or filter. A plugged tank vent could create vacuum in the tank that will overpower the pump's ability to create vacuum and draw fuel through the lines. An obstructed line or fuel filter could also keep fuel from reaching the pump. Any of these conditions could partially restrict fuel flow, allowing the pump to deliver fuel, but at a lower pressure/rate. A pump delivery or pressure test under these circumstances would give a low reading that might be mistaken for a faulty pump. Before testing the fuel pump, refer to the testing procedures found under Fuel Lines and Fitting to ensure there are no problems with the tank, lines or filter.

A quick check of fuel pump operation is to gently squeeze the primer bulb with the motor running. If a seemingly rough or lean running condition (especially at speed) goes away when the bulb is squeezed, the fuel pump is suspect.

If inadequate fuel delivery is suspected and no problems are found with the tank, lines or filters, a conduct a quick-check to see how the pump affects performance. Use the primer bulb to supplement fuel pump. This is done by operating the motor under load and otherwise under normal operating conditions to recreate the problem. Once the motor begins to hesitate, stumble or stall, pump the primer bulb quickly and repeatedly while listening for motor response. Pumping the bulb by hand like this will force fuel through the lines to the vapor separator tank, regardless of the fuel pump's ability to draw and deliver fuel. If the engine performance problem goes away while pumping the bulb, and returns when you stop, there is a good chance you"ve isolated the low pressure fuel pump as the culprit. Depending upon the model you may be able to perform a pressure or vacuum check (Yamaha and Mercury tend to recommend the later) or you'll have to disassemble the pump to physically inspect the check valves and diaphragms (your only option on carburetor integrated pumps, but it's not that difficult and can be done on ALL pumps).

Never run a motor without cooling water. Use a test tank, a flush/test device or launch the craft. Also, never run a motor at speed without load, so for tests running over idle speed, make sure the motor is either in a test tank with a test wheel or on a launched craft with the normal propeller installed.

[skeeter]

The carb on my 98 mariner is exactly the same one on the 93 Yamaha. Parts are half price about and you can find them easy. Figure that out! Most everything you look for on the Mariner is NA.


Just to give an update in case anyone else finds the same problems I have. Mercury doesn't make hardly any parts for this motor. In fact the power head is a 1993 Yamaha. Wonder how much the Mercury sticker cost the original owner lol. Anyway if your looking for parts for this motor check yamahas website for a 1993 F9.9MLHR. The good news are the parts are cheaper. I bought a front support for my top cowling that cost me in the range of $150 including shipping the same part is 43 from yamaha. and that "starter assembly" I need is $107 from Mercury but NLA. Yamaha has it for $79.00.

[alanexpup]

Hi. i had the same problem with my 15 hp 4 stroke johnson,1997 model. this is what i found. the first place the gas goes into the engine by the fuel pump has a little check ball and a retainer to hold the ball in place. the little metal retainer had worked its way free and consequently the check ball would not hold the gas in. when i put the retainer inplace the way its supposed to be the engine ran without having to pump the primer bulb every minute or two. the ball is about the size of a bb and the retainer is very small also. this fixed it for me i dont know about yours but i would think these systems are all very similar. i did not want to take in and have them charge me an arm and a leg. good luck. let me know if this works. alan

[rebs]

new fuel pump seems to have fixed my evinrude 9.9

[rebs]

new fuel pump seems to have fixed my evinrude 9.9

the new fuel pump did not fix my problem after all. It was good for one outing and the next time out the bulb would not pump up again.
This is irritating as all get out. what the heck could be wrong ?

[skeeter]

REBS you aren't suppose to write things like "a new fuel pump fixed mine" ! UNLESS you knock on wood. Oh man am so sorry. This is terrible. I hope you don't mind me sharing your thread "WE WILL GET THROUGH THIS THING"

[skeeter]

Well Alan, I sucked all the gas out checking it in a clear bottle before and after I shook the boat real good all the way to the bottom (6 gal) I kept checking it. Clear and clean gas. I took the tank out and put on bench and put some gas in it and keep shaking it and pouring it out in a clear bowl checking for dirt of some kind. All I got was some Al thread material probably when they put the drop pipes etc in. Not enough to hurt at all. I shook and drained at least 5 or 6 times. Nothing in there. L BUT now I know its not that and I could tell you a whole lot of things its NOT. Lolol Thanks for the idea though. I am bummed I didn’t get the pump in the mail yet. L Nels

[skeeter]

Does anyone know what the compression should be for a 98 Mercury Mariner 9.9 4 stroke? Thanks in advance. Nels

[rebs]

the primer bulb pumps up hard sometimes but not all the time, however once the motor is running it runs great. this would say the carb is ok and the fuel pump is ok, which is brand new, the hoses, primer bulb and fittings ar brand new
what the heck is left to cause this problem ?????????
also if I unplug the hose from the motor the bulb pumps up hard, plug it back in the motor and sometimes dfoes pump up hard and other times it doesn't

[skeeter]

Check valve in tank? Leak in tank? Check valve in bulb? Bob, we are suppose to be thinking turkey today not sick motors. ha I am thankful for many many things but I sure would be more thankful if our motors run. lolol

[rebs]

skeeter
if someone tells me today what is wrong with my motor, I will buy them a turkey....LOL

[perchjerker]

rebs look at your pms

[yarcraft91]

skeeter
if someone tells me today what is wrong with my motor, I will buy them a turkey....LOL

Sounds like you and Skeeter replaced everything in the fuel system from the tank to the carburetor, including the fuel pump and it still isn't pumping enough fuel to keep the motor running. I don't have a motor like yours, but I like this kind of puzzle. And, for a chance at a turkey, I'll guess. :)

What is it that makes the fuel pump in your motor work- makes the pump diaphragm move back and forth to pump fuel- is it a mechanical pushrod or is it engine vacuum pulses? If it's vacuum pulses, did you try to clean out the port that provides the pulses? You'll probably have to remove the fuel pump to access it.

[perchjerker]

Sounds like you and Skeeter replaced everything in the fuel system from the tank to the carburetor, including the fuel pump and it still isn't pumping enough fuel to keep the motor running. I don't have a motor like yours, but I like this kind of puzzle. And, for a chance at a turkey, I'll guess. :)

What is it that makes the fuel pump in your motor work- makes the pump diaphragm move back and forth to pump fuel- is it a mechanical pushrod or is it engine vacuum pulses? If it's vacuum pulses, did you try to clean out the port that provides the pulses? You'll probably have to remove the fuel pump to access it.

I dont know of any 2 stroke fuel pump that uses a pushrod, that would require some kind of camshaft or it would have to run off the crankshaft somehow. Some may have that, I dont know though...

I would think if the vac port was plugged then it would not be an intermintent problem, and the symptom of the bulb not being able to be pumped up seems to point to something else also.

My bet is still a sticking float.

[rebs]

my motor runs great once it starts, I have trolled for 2 to 3 hours at a time and also run it 3/4 throttle for an hour with no problems. The motor runs great. the whole problem is the primer bulb on the fuel hose doesn't pump up hard all the time. when it does pump up the motor starts on 1 or 2 pulls, but when the primer buld doesn't pump up it takes anywhere from 8 to 12 pulls to get the motor running.
The trouble is in the primer bulb not pumping up hard all the time.

[yarcraft91]

Rebs:

OK- your motor troubles are different than Skeeters.

Pardon what is probably a dumb question, but do you always hold the bulb with the outlet end up while you pump it?

If the problem was a stuck float, I'd think there would be gas pumping out of the carb throat or the motor would be flooded.

I'll keep at this until I have room for another piece of pie.

[skeeter]

Rebs, I am thinking that when you and I go fishing rather than going through all these problems, wouldn't it be easier just to take someone with us and give them the job of pumping the bulb?

[rebs]

Rebs:

OK- your motor troubles are different than Skeeters.

Pardon what is probably a dumb question, but do you always hold the bulb with the outlet end up while you pump it?

If the problem was a stuck float, I'd think there would be gas pumping out of the carb throat or the motor would be flooded.

I'll keep at this until I have room for another piece of pie.

no usually I just hold it sideways with neither end up

[skeeter]

I do notice with my bulb if I hold up the excit site UP it fills up faster.

[yarcraft91]

I have 2 Evinrude/Johnson factory primer bulbs that don't work reliably when I hold them sideways, but always work when I hold them outlet end up. You might give that a try.

[perchjerker]

I have 2 Evinrude/Johnson factory primer bulbs that don't work reliably when I hold them sideways, but always work when I hold them outlet end up. You might give that a try.

yea thats a great suggestiom. My Yam kicker primer acts the same way at times

[perchjerker]

Rebs:

OK- your motor troubles are different than Skeeters.

Pardon what is probably a dumb question, but do you always hold the bulb with the outlet end up while you pump it?

If the problem was a stuck float, I'd think there would be gas pumping out of the carb throat or the motor would be flooded.

I'll keep at this until I have room for another piece of pie.


it might be flooding, we really dont know for sure at this point. If he has to pull 8-12 times to get it to start when it does this then it could very well be flooding...

[yarcraft91]

Yep- there could still be a carb problem. The bulb may not be the problem- at least not the only problem, but at least rebs has something really cheap to try. :)

The exit-end-up thing occurred to me when I took an not-so-old Quicksilver bulb apart and found the outlet check ball is not held in its seat by spring tension- just rattling around loose in the valve housing, with a piece of wire that prevents it from falling out.

[perchjerker]

I sent him a pm telling him to get it to act up, then disconnect the fuel line inlet from the carb, then pump the bulb. If nothing comes out then its someplace in the fuel supply to that point.

If it squrts out normally then its in the carb most likely

once he narrows it down we can go from there

the other question I have is, is the kicker fuel tank seperate from the main, if not, how are they tired together?

[rebs]

the kicker fuel tank is seperate

I just went out in the garage and tried holding the outlet end up and it did not make any difference.

am I correct in assuming that if the flooat was stuck open when I squeeze the bulb, I should be able to see gas or atleast smell gas ? because I do not see any leak or smell any gas.
tomorrow I am going to take the fuel line off the carb and see if gas comes out when I squeeze the bulb, like Perchjerker suggested.

[skeeter]

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/primer.html

[skeeter]

Here you go Rebs! This thread is FULL of good info on fuel problems.

Primer Bulb Never Gets Firm
If you can fill the bulb with fuel but it never gets firm, you probably have a fuel leak downstream of the primer bulb. This could be a stuck float valve on a carburetor, or a fuel leak in the engine fuel pump. Many engines use a diaphragm pump, and if the rubber diaphragm has a pin hole leak, gasoline will be forced past it into the engine crankcase. It should only take a few squeezes to get a primer bulb to become firm.

If you have a fuel disconnect downstream of the primer bulb, disconnect the fuel line from the engine and see if the primer can now be pumped to firmness. If so, your leak is in the engine.

[staylor]

....most often the rather complex tank venting system in the tank attachment where you snap the hose onto the tank. Another possibility is the metal fuel tube where it attaches to the venting system has developed a pin hole leak that only leaks while the motor is running for a while. The traditional way to check this is simply to snap your hose on to an OMC tank that is known to be good. The other way is to remove the tank attachment fitting from the fuel hose and just shove the open hose end into the tank thru the fuel fill cap- this is messy and dangerous but works. If this fixes the problem then you can just buy a new tank- or if you want to do penance, you can buy all the tiny little poppets and springs and o-rings that are retained inside the upper tank attachment with hammered in with retaining metal washers and welch plugs. These tank venting parts get crudded up over time and often the crud plus wear and tear on the attaching barbs causes the tank vents to work initially, but then vibrate around till they stick and prevent the tank from venting. Sometimes they leak air into the fuel only at certain temperatures- usually when its cold outside. If you try a known tank that is good- or go to the shove the hose into the tank fill hole route and the motor still acts up, then you go to the powerhead. If the fuel pump is new and installed correctly then the next place to go is the carb. An OMC carb has a sediment bowl held on with a single big screw. You have to pull the carb, drop the bowl, and look for old congealed gas in the bowl that usually looks like tiny flakes of hardened reddish colored varnish. This is the fuel that you can't drain from the carb when you run it out of fuel for storage in the winter. It turns to varnish and floats around in the sediment bowl. If it gets near the float, then you can either run out of gas or flood. If it gets to the main jet it will cause you to run on 1 cylinder, if it gets to the idle jet or feed holes it will cause random stalling at idle. The only solution is to rebuild the carb, unless you're lucky enough to find one big flake floating in the bowl- in some cases if you remove this one flake the motor will run fine- but usually one isn't this lucky. All I can say is that this is one lousy way to spend a half-way decent long weekend up here in the Buffalo area where Rebs and I both live.
Doug

[rebs]

Hi Doug
the motor will run fine for hours once you get it started, the problem is the primer bulb will not pump up hard most of the time, only sometimes will it pump up hard. Possibly a sticking float in the carb ? Other wise I don't think it is the carb because the motor runs so good once it starts. I ruled out the tank by trying another tank and it does the same thing with both tanks. I also disconnected the hose at the carb and it does pump fuel through the fuel pump and out the hose. Also if I unplug the hose from the motor it pumps up hard right away.

[staylor]

Bob, when you tried the different tank did you run with the hose on the second tank or your new hose? The bulb going soft means that you have to have air getting into the line or you have a bad bulb. If the pump diaphram was leaking this could also have the same effect. The fact that you're pumping fuel to the carb implies to me that the air leak isn't that bad. On OMC 9.9/15 that I've owned it was not unusual for a good fuel system to have the bulb require 1/2 to 3/4 of a squeeze before it would go hard. Sometimes if you don't have the bulb itself elevated higher than the top of the tank you will build up a little air pocket in the bulb- but this won't have any real effect on how the motor runs. If you have a stuck float and the carb runs dry then this will cause a stall and hard re-start- as will other things, like a bad powerpack that fails when it gets warm. If the carb is flooding you should see gas dripping out the carb mouth, and on many OMCs you'll have to run without the little plastic airbox that covers the carb, or remove the top of the box so you can see the carb throat. If it's running dry you can try the old trick of a squirt oil can filled with fuel from the tank. With motor stopped, put it into forward and open the throttle full. Give her 2 squirts down the carb throat, reduce throttle to idle and put back into neutral. Then try to start. If it fires and runs for a few seconds and then stops the carb is dry. I've seen some of these motors act just lke yours with varnish in the carb bowl as I mentioned. When the motor stops, the varnish flakes fall out of whatever they've plugged and after 8-10 pulls the motor starts and runs fine till the flakes work their way back into the jets. Another check that's easy on a kicker is to check the ignition for spark when it stalls. Just pull both plugs and remove one from the plug wire. Substitute an old plug with the outer electrode clipped off. Ground both plugs to the block and pull the starter rope. You should see a spark on both plugs- and the one with the electrode missing should have a nice clean spark shooting the big gap. Then swap the modified plug to the other wire and test again. A good OMC ignition can shoot a spark across a 3/8 inch gap on a spark tester.
Doug

[skeeter]

Update on compression. Upper cyl 135# Lower 130# Glad of that. Still no fuel pump. :(

[skeeter]

GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Received pump this morning. Put pump on and took it to the launch. Ran perfect for 45 min in gear at higher rpm than idle. Works perfect. KNOCK ON WOOD! Like to thank everyone that showed an interest in the problem. I hope all the informantion in this thread helps someone else someday. Skeeter

[yarcraft91]

Good for you Skeeter!!! And, just in time- should get our first snow tonight...

[skeeter]

Rebs, any word on your motor after all this? I have been out 2 times and the kicker has not missed a beat. :) Nels

[rebs]

Rebs, any word on your motor after all this? I have been out 2 times and the kicker has not missed a beat. :) Nels

It still does the same thing, the primer bulb pumps up hard sometimes but not all the time, I am going to rebuild the carb in case it is a sticking float.

The stuff I need to change it to electric start arrived except for a solenoid. Does anyone know if I need a selenoid ?

[skeeter]

Disconnect the fuel line from the motor. Be sure to pump it up hard. Let it set all night and see if it is still hard in the morning. IF not check for leaks. Could even be the drop tub in the tank. That is where I would start. Nels

[rebs]

when the bulb pumps up hard it will stay hard over night plugged into the motor.

[skeeter]

Wish I lived closer Rebs. Love to give you a hand on that motor. Nels

[rebs]

I am going to rebuild the card, the only thing I can see it being is like perchjerker said a sticking float. stick sometimes but not always

[perchjerker]

Bob-

call me in the morning anytime after 10

[rebs]

Bob-

call me in the morning anytime after 10

ok will do

[Phil'm up]

I have a Mercury 9.9 2006. Same thing happened with this motor. I found out that in the carb. that the accelerator pump check valve was up side down. It quit flow of fuel. Now it works fine. I was ready to dump it over board.