Marine radios

[I Walleye]

I will be needing to purchase a marine radio for some tournements this summer. You guys that have them do you prefer the hand held units or the more powerful radios with a larger antenna. I will not be on any real big water, just "little" lakes like Mille Lacs and Leech. What are the pro's and cons of each, besides the obvious in size?

[cast_and_blast]

I'd mount one to the boat. The handhelds are low power and have small antennas - you're not going to get much distance from them. If it's just a formality to have one to comply with tourney regs, a handheld would probably meet the requirements, but not be very useful.

If you plan to actually use it, mount one with a good quality 4' - 8' antenna (Shakespeare or Digital brands are top notch). You'll spend about $250 plus your labor to install.

Good luck!

Scott

[caffeineforall]

Depends on the equipment. In the army our hand helds have ranges of miles and miles over rough terrain. But range control has a big antenna/receiver.

Depends on your use. And who you are talking to.

When in doubt, go big.

[I Walleye]

Ok then, lets break this down a little more. After looking at some online catalogs it seems there is more to a marine radio than just buying a radio and an antenna. Bass Pro has antenna listed as 3dB and 6dB. What is that all about?

Does a guy need an 8' antenna or would one of the shorter 24" antenna work to get say a 6 mile range?

Thanks.

[yarcraft91]

With a 24" antenna on a small fishing boat, you may be able to communicate over 6 miles with a Coast Guard station, but probably not with other boats. Range would likely be limited to 1-2 miles. Range depends on antenna height above the water- put on at least a 4' antenna and 8' is better.

If you can double the distance at which you communicate, you quadruple the area of lake where you can talk to another boat.

[caffeineforall]

The difference in between 3db and 6db is power. 6db is more powerful. How much so, I dunno. I can maybe google a chart, and yarcraft is right about a larger antenna. Let me get google going.

[Ray Champine]

I'd personally mount a radio in my boat with an 8' antenna.

Here is some good reading regarding antennas and nomenclature: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/VHF-Antennas.htm

Ray

[caffeineforall]

"Since in many electrical applications power is proportional to the square of voltage, an increase of 3 dB implies an increase in voltage by a factor of approximately √2, or about 1.41. Similarly, an increase of 6 dB corresponds to approximately four times the power and twice the voltage, and so on. (In exact terms the power factor is 106/10, or about 3.9811, a relative error of about 0.5%.)"

adding one of these may also boost your signal reception ability.

http://cgi.ebay.com/-M151-HMMWV-Military--Radio-antenna-ball-Tip_W0QQitemZ150394737612QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2009 1205?IMSfp=TL091205194003r39037

[yarcraft91]

Interesting article from West Marine.

The article has a table showing data for 2 antennas 5' high (assuming this is the handheld VHF they mentioned). The table indicates those two radios can communicate over a range of 5 miles. In my experience, that is highly optimistic. I've found the real useful range for two radios with such short antennas to be less than 2 miles. I could communicate with the Coast Guard 5 miles from their station on Channel 16, but not on Chanel 22 (they could hear me, I couldn't hear them). Maybe there's something wrong with my handheld (Standard Horizon 270), but that's what I found. I'm putting an 8' antenna on my boat with an adapter to connect to the handheld.

[keek]

I have two hand-helds (iCom and a hummingbird) and one boat mounted VHF (Uniden). In terms of range the boat mounted wins, plus it's always where you left it... bolted to the boat!

There is more to it than just buying a radio and an antenna like some have said. It'll work (usually) if you do this but to really get the most out of your set-up they should compliment each other.

[bvs]

As an RF engineer I can say I'd take a 5-Watt handheld with an 8' antenna under almost all situations over a mounted 25-Watt with a short rubber antenna. The 25W will transmit decently, but you won't hear squat.

5W is about +37dBm. 25W is about +44dBm.

7" rubber antennas have 0dB gain if you're lucky.
4' antennas have about 3dB of gain.
9' antennas have about 6dB of gain.
19' antennas have about 9dB of gain.

A 5W (37dBm) handheld with a 8' antenna will have an effective power of 20W (43dBm) and it will receive 6dB better too. That's the nice thing about antenna gain. It helps in both receive AND transmit.

Now a 25W is smoking with a 8' or even better 19' antenna. If you can go there, do it.

On boats you're also dealing with the curvature of the earth. Even thought the water appears flat, it curves at about 1 foot per mile. During boat-to-boat communication if you don't want to get shielded by the water you need to get the antenna up as high as you can. Long antennas naturally help with this.

The receivers in most of the handhelds are just as good as the mounted units. The main advantages you get in the mounted units are more transmit power, a larger speaker, a much bigger battery, and they're much harder to drop overboard. Handhelds get a bad rap because their antennas are so weak, but they really do work almost as well if paired with a good antenna.

All this said, unless you need to move the radio between boats, I'd go mounted. They're cheaper, more powerful, and they're illegal to use on land so portability doesn't give you much advantage anyway.

The difference in performance between brands will be minor. Except for a few mandated features that have been added, marine VHF technology has been the same for about 30 years now. They're a commodity. Choose the brand that you think will be the most reliable, have the best speaker/mic, and has the user interface you prefer.

[walleyejim1216]

I have never in my life heard of that stat of the earth curving 1ft. per mile! Maybey I should of paid way more attention in school, but I find that fasinating for some reason! It also brings many questions to mind like, if its curved that much why wouldn't the water flow both directions from the middle of the curve! I'm sure I have shown my complete ignorance here but that is just unreal to think it curves that fast! Thanks for the info. Jim

[Hot Runr Guy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon

HRG

[yarcraft91]

I have never in my life heard of that stat of the earth curving 1ft. per mile! Maybey I should of paid way more attention in school, but I find that fasinating for some reason! It also brings many questions to mind like, if its curved that much why wouldn't the water flow both directions from the middle of the curve!

For the same reason that people in Australia don't fall off the earth- gravity. :)

I see you're a builder. Have you ever used a long clear plastic hose to level up two "things" that are too far apart for a spirit level? Hold each end of the hose upright, pour in water until it's at the level of the first thing. The water at the other end of the hose will be at the same level, no matter how apart the two hose ends may be. With tees and more hose, you can use this technique to level all around a large building. If you could measure exactly enough, you'd find those water levels follow the curve of the earth.

The Atlanta Georgia World Congress Convention Center is so large the curve of the earth had to be factored into the building design and construction. If the floors had been built absolutely straight from one end to the other, the floors at the ends would not have been level.

[walleyejim1216]

I guess I'm not the only dummy, I have told 4 or 5 people about this and every single one says they haven't heard of that either! So I feel a little better but i still find it amazing! Thanks for the info and it proves your never too old to learn!

[Catcrazy3]

Not trying to stir things up, just curious: are marine radios subject to the FCC narrow-banding requirement for 2012/2013? (meaning all current radios would have to be replaced if not narrow-band capable)

[yarcraft91]

Not trying to stir things up, just curious: are marine radios subject to the FCC narrow-banding requirement for 2012/2013? (meaning all current radios would have to be replaced if not narrow-band capable)

Marine radios are unlikely to be affected. Marine radio channel assignments are subject to existing international standards, not solely under US control.

[bvs]

The narrowband (12.5KHz) radio requirement is only for land mobile radio. They're doing this because in many markets there is a long waiting period for licenses. By halving the channel spacing the FCC can provide twice the number of licenses currently available as well as double their income on this spectrum.

Marine channels already occupy twice the bandwidth of land mobile radio (soon to be 4X). If the FCC had the power to force a change on the marine system like this, I think they would have already done it.

[Hawker]

BVS, you brought up something interesting when you stated they (marine band VHF I assume) were illegal to use on land! Just this past week while fishing on Lake Ouchita in Arkansas, our group was using ch 18 to keep tabs on each other etc. There was some kind of trucking outfit (log haulers from the sounds of them) complaining about the "fishing" talk on their channel. If what you say is true, then the trucking outfit were the ones running illegal, correct?? We invited a couple of them to come on down and help drag in some good sized stripers, but they were no shows!! ha

[I Walleye]

Great information guys! Such a wealth of knowledge here, it's fantastic.:cheers:

[yarcraft91]

BVS, you brought up something interesting when you stated they (marine band VHF I assume) were illegal to use on land! Just this past week while fishing on Lake Ouchita in Arkansas, our group was using ch 18 to keep tabs on each other etc. There was some kind of trucking outfit (log haulers from the sounds of them) complaining about the "fishing" talk on their channel. If what you say is true, then the trucking outfit were the ones running illegal, correct?? We invited a couple of them to come on down and help drag in some good sized stripers, but they were no shows!! ha

The truckers had grounds for complaint. Channel 18A is for commercial radio traffic only, so your use may have been the illegal one. I've heard our local road commission talking on marine band channel 63A- I'm betting that's OK, too. You may have noticed that many channels on your marine band radio are technically identified with an "A" in the channel number, e.g., 22A, 18A, 63A- see the full list here.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/vhf.htm
Channels ending in an "A" are not internationally recognized as marine-only channels, so may not be subject to the "marine-use-only" rule.

[Hawker]

The truckers had grounds for complaint. Channel 18A is for commercial radio traffic only, so your use may have been the illegal one. I've heard our local road commission talking on marine band channel 63A- I'm betting that's OK, too. You may have noticed that many channels on your marine band radio are technically identified with an "A" in the channel number, e.g., 22A, 18A, 63A- see the full list here.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/marcomms/vhf.htm
Channels ending in an "A" are not internationally recognized as marine-only channels, so may not be subject to the "marine-use-only" rule.


Good information Yarcraft, it is appreciated and noted and I will pass this on to all the club members. Ch 18 is typically the channel they use on our local lakes, but from reading the chart you linked to, that is not a good channel to be using. Again, thanks for the heads up and info!!

[yarcraft91]

Good information Yarcraft, it is appreciated and noted and I will pass this on to all the club members. Ch 18 is typically the channel they use on our local lakes, but from reading the chart you linked to, that is not a good channel to be using. Again, thanks for the heads up and info!!

You're welcome! The channel assignments went through some changes years back and I found myself using channels that used to be OK and had become no-nos. When I bought my first VHF (1983), channel 09 used to be a general communications channel- now you're only supposed to use it for hailing another ship, not holding a conversation- as some were quick to point out. :blush: Back then, I don't even recall channel 18 being available on my radio.

[keek]

Great info here. All this VHF talk reminded me of one of my favorite moments using a VHF. I was in southeast Alaska on a 14 day sea-kayak tour and due to the travel plans we we're riding a tide that began ebbing at 3:00am. My group and I had made it to the point of an island with a 4 mile open crossing looking us in the face. With enough fog to make things interesting I saw the hazy lights of a cruise ship heading our way. I made the decision to wait and let it pass and kept thinking how many more of these huge ships were lurking out there. I radioed the cruise ship with my handheld VHF and asked for a radar sweep of the area. I got a confirmation that that ship was the only one in the area which calmed a few nerves. We ended up safe and sound with a cool twist to night-time navigation by sea-kayak.

[PackerBacker]

West bound and down, eighteen wheels are rollin' ,
we're gonna do what they say can't be done.
We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I'm west bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run.

Keep your foot hard on the pedal. Son, never mind them brakes.
Let it all hang out 'cause we got a run to make.
The boys are thirsty in Atlanta and there's beer in Texarcana.
And we'll bring it back no matter what it takes.

West bound and down, eighteen wheels are rollin' ,
we're gonna do what they say can't be done.
We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I'm west bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run.

West bound and down, eighteen wheels are rollin' ,
we're gonna do what they say can't be done.
We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I'm west bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run.

Ol' Smokey's got them ears on and he's hot on your trail.
He aint gonna rest 'til you're in jail.
So you got to dodge 'im and you got to duck 'im,
you got to keep that diesel truckin'.
Just put that hammer down and give it ****.

West bound and down, eighteen wheels are rollin' ,
we're gonna do what they say can't be done.
We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
I'm west bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run.

[Dave34]

I will be needing to purchase a marine radio for some tournements this summer. You guys that have them do you prefer the hand held units or the more powerful radios with a larger antenna. I will not be on any real big water, just "little" lakes like Mille Lacs and Leech. What are the pro's and cons of each, besides the obvious in size?

Since the radios basically operate by line of sight for distance, the taller the antenna, the better. I've always been advised to stay with an 8' antenna. I have a Ray Marine Ray54 in my boat with a Shakespeare Galaxie 8' antenna. I think I get great range with it - both for transmitting & receiving. The weather alert feature is also a nice thing to have. Many of the marine radios are equipped with weather channels and severe weather alert capability.

[PackerBacker]

I would second Ray Marine and the 8' Galaxie antenna. I have tried the shorter 4' antennas and the reception is not nearly as good.