QUESTIONS FOR THE STATEMENT: Just a few ground rules and comments [Archive]

theguide_1

04-28-2002, 06:11 PM

I now understand this no website thing, but what about NPAA numerbers behind names? Isn't that a form of advertising? Should that be aloud?
Shouldn't the person asking the questions that your giving the answers to, deserve to know that the info comes from a reliable source instead of just a sign-in-name-ID? And what about someone refering your site to others for the fishing report in that area, is that OK? If these people want more info, what's a person to do? Because it is all advertising in one form or another! Please answer these questions for me, and not just the easy ones.

tbomn

04-28-2002, 06:39 PM

I am not sure what the NPAA numbers behind a persons name is advertising, I would think that it is only a way of identification. As for the other part of your question I think the statement I made in the previous post really said it, "The reply posts with information sites, or sites requested by the "first" poster are not considered an advertisement. If the first post includes a website address, or web link, then it gets dusted."

theguide_1

04-28-2002, 09:08 PM

Pro's pay good money for the top 100 numbers. As far as advertising with them, well here's an example. Jeff Gordan (24) you think Dupont, Michel Jordan (23) you think the Bulls, and so on..... They're not just sports, they are businesses. Am I right or not? Sounds like advertising to me!

theguide_1

04-28-2002, 09:23 PM

I see that I spelled allowed wrong, please forgive me.

FROGMAN

04-29-2002, 03:16 AM

There are several reasons I, and most other anglers, associate ourselves with our NPAA member numbers. Most importantly it is a form of identification. It let's other people know I'm dedicated to the sport, and hold my actions out for all to see. If I'm performing in an unsafe manner at anytime they have a way of tracking me down, and holding me accountable.

If you wish, feel free to get in touch with me personally to discuss this further.
Tight lines

Keith Segar
NPAA #260

theguide_1

04-29-2002, 03:28 AM

But this doesn't answer the questions. A business will put there name out on the limb too, if they do these things. You weren't born with that number like a SS#, so it's a business # which helps you advertise. I am not nocking the NPAA. They stand for many good things. But YES it is a form of advertising.

wouldchuck

04-29-2002, 04:28 AM

Yeah, you could consider the NPAA # a form of advertising but I think it comes down to more of a form of bragging. I mean that in a good way, like it is something they are proud of and not ashamed to show us. But they're not selling a product per se. Not one that the companies who put the money down to keep this site running would be competing against.

I used to spent alot of time at a woodworking site where if some tried in any way to hock any kind of product they were severely scolded by all of the members. It was like a sport and you NEVER seen antone do it twice.

theguide_1

04-29-2002, 07:11 AM

True about the bragging rights, but you know and I know that these pro's have sponsers that have products that they endorse. I would still call this, "backdoor-advertisement". But still advertisement in any respect.

"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander"

Peanut

04-29-2002, 08:48 AM

Well, let's think about this a little....

The original question was whether including a NPAA # was a form of advertising. Now, if we're taking things way beyond their useful logical limits, every form of communication is a form of "advertising" - it is promoting something, even if only our knowledge or point of view.

But, the concern with posting website links is that it is not just communicating an idea, but is in fact trying to Sell You Something.

And that's not inherently bad, except that companies like C'liner,and, let's see who else is on here, oh, Crystal-Pierz Marine, Hotspots, etc. actually pay WC to put links to their sites which try and sell you something.

Obviously, companies like these would be less than thrilled to find out that others can post free links to sell their stuff in the message boards. Scott did a good job of explaining this issue, so I won't belabour it further.

So...to wind our way back to your question/concern, I have to ask, when Keith Segar puts his #260 on his signature line, what exactly is he trying to sell you? Is he selling anything?

To me, that's the big difference. Yes, it informs us that he is a NPAA member, but so what? He is not doing this to elicit sales, and to me, that's the acid test, and that's why I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Anyway, that's my $.02.

derrek.

CANADIAN WALLEYE OPEN UP AND SAY "EH"!

Jim Ordway

04-29-2002, 09:05 AM

10-4 Derreck. If your not trying to sell something, I would guess, no foul. Folks use names of boats as their handles, and, I would say they are promoting what they like, but so are folks that tell you what baits worked and and the products they used in the process. This is an informational board, meant to help us all. If you are not trying to sell something, for your own direct benefit, but just informing others of your preferences, no foul.
Take care,

theguide_1

04-29-2002, 01:38 PM

But still what the answer to the rest of the statements,like "And what about someone refering your site to others for the fishing report in that area, is that OK? If these people want more info, what's a person to do?" And, "Pro's pay good money for the top 100 numbers. As far as advertising with them, well here's an example. Jeff Gordan (24) you think Dupont, Michel Jordan (23) you think the Bulls, and so on..... They're not just sports, they are businesses. Am I right or not? Sounds like advertising to me!" So is your logic right, because still see advertising. Now how many shirts and hats did Michel Jordan (23) or Jeff Gordan (24)? NONE, but thier sponsers did, didn't they.

I understand that the companies are paying to be on WC 24/7, but this so-called advertising by putting web-site(such as for fishing reports) under your name so that people know the information comes from a reliable source, should be no different then a number next to your name so that people know who you are. These people are looking for good reliable info. Besides it's not like it's going to be a 24/7 pop-up advertisement.

Is there anyone out there who thinks the same?

Fishtail

04-29-2002, 01:46 PM

What is your point theguide-1??? There is a BIG difference between someone advertising a service or product and a Tournament Angler promoting himself! What is your point?
Fishtail

theguide_1

04-29-2002, 01:59 PM

Thank you for YOUR opinion, but do you have any answers for the other questions, other then the NPAA#'s?

hgmeyer

04-29-2002, 02:03 PM

My signature includes a link to my IBF/BASS affiliated club...I'm one of those "confused" folks...I fish both Walleye and Bass Tourneys... The club website is my only "non-commercial" web page (MY work has one I have never posted here)...But, there are commercial links on the resouces page of the club site...as well as free bass games and quizzes as well as clkub news and tourney info...Actually the IBF picked the site as an "Award Winner"...So, I am justifiably proud...Anyway should I leave it or delete it...?

Peanut

04-29-2002, 02:30 PM

First, I have no idea whether NPAA members buy their numbers, or whether they are assigned, or whether they can pick any number not already chosen. Maybe someone else can help me out on that point.

I can't remember exactly your other questions, so I'll prattle on a little bit on what I do remember - forgive me if I miss anything, I'm not trying to dodge the topic - my memory is good, just short (an old joke...).

I understand the rules regarding website links to be as follows: If someone posts a site link as an appropriate answer to a question, that's fair ball - as it is not unsolicited advertising.

For example, if I was to post a question asking: "Where in tarnation can I get me some of that there Guidewear, and who the heck is this Cabela fella with all these extra clothes anyway?" In all likelihood within 5 minutes someone will post "Hey stupid, Cabela's is a store that sells this stuff. Here's the link....", that would be fair ball.

Off the top of my head, I've recently seen links to Northland Tackle, Shimano, St. Croix, some resort/outfitter camps, etc. The thing was, they were all posted in response to a specific request for information. This is allowed.

So, when you ask whether someone can post a fishing reports site, it depends. If someone asks how the fishing's been on a lake or in a particular area, if there is a site that provides such information, posting a link to it as part of a reply would be appropriate.

Posting the same fishing report link as a response to my Guidewear question would be goofy as well as inappropriate, and may get nuked.

Including the site link in your signature line so it appears in everything you post on WC is a no-no. That would fall under the (free) advertising category, and is definitely verboten.

Finally, to bring a merciful end to this beast of a post (I really must want to avoid work at all costs today), your comments regarding NPAA numbers still don't make sense to me. Yes, there may be hordes of teenage girls buying up Keith Segar merchandise, I don't know. But, he's not advertising any of it by posting his NPAA number, in my books.

To me, if he included a link to a site that sold the stuff, or if his signature line read: "Segar 260 signature underwear, available at...", or if his sponsors were somehow identified in his signature line, that's a whole 'nother matter, and then I would agree with you.

But he does not. He lists a membership number that's all. Okay, dammit, back to work......

derrek.

CANADIAN WALLEYE OPEN UP AND SAY "EH"!

Fish_on

04-29-2002, 02:52 PM

Yer purty sharp for a canuk.

WAeyes

04-29-2002, 03:04 PM

I vote for Peanut to head up the next WC rules committee!

Peanut

04-29-2002, 03:07 PM

Duh, thanks eh. How's them teeth?

Hey, can you believe it snowed here (again) today? Our opener is this Saturday, and everything within tolerable driving distance still has ice on it. I'm gonna hafta start pitchin' practice jigs at my border collie just to pass the time....

Hope all is well,

derrek.

CANADIAN WALLEYE OPEN UP AND SAY "EH"!

theguide_1

04-29-2002, 04:48 PM

So is what your saying is that these number not an advertisement, but just numbers to make them selves look famous? Is that why their numbers are all over their boats, clothing, and vehicles along with all of the rest of their sponser stickers?

04-29-2002, 06:08 PM

Maybe some people feel that everything is advertising.Maybe the reports should read. Last week i went to ------- and got those new ------ lures. Used them when i fished sat at -----. Boy did we hammer the fish.The best colors were-----and-----. All our reels have that new line on,---- it really helps hook the fish.------- is going to have them on sale this coming week,and if i were you i would get a few of them.Let me know how you like em ,they worked great for me.
If that place runs out of them try-----.

Pa

water_wolf

04-29-2002, 06:16 PM

Does this clear it up for ya?

ALLOWED:
Question posted: Hey I saw a couple of guys using a new lure called a catchem-bigen-jig. Does anyone know where I can get these?

Answer posted: Yes I do know where you can get them they work great for me on Lake X heres a link to their site: www.catchem-bigen-jig.com

NOT ALLOWED:
Question posted: Has anyone been to Lake Q lately was wondering how the fishing was?

Answer posted: Yeah I was there over the weekend we did pretty good with worm harness crawlers slow trolled along weed edge.

Billy Bob
www.mywebsite.com

That clear things up a little?

Oh and the NPAA# that is not trying to directly sell me anything.

Rich Ferguson

Paul Myrdahl

04-29-2002, 07:48 PM

I was directed to the NPAA when asking a rep from a well known boat manufacturer (name withheld so as not to advertise). He said, "If your serious about being a tournament fisherman than join the NPAA.
I didn't join the group in order to appear famous. I don't have any sponsors. I joined the group (a nonprofit organization) because of the benefits that are available from the group and it's affiliates.
I don't see why somebody would make a stink over the fact that someone is proud to be a member of such an organization and display the fact that he is. It is their to promote ethical behavior and sportsmanship between Professional anglers.
Am I trying to sell you something? Myself? maybe but I don't need a number to do that.
When I joined the NPAA I received an ID #. The number is registered to me and nobody else. It Identifies me to everybody I come in contact with as a professional (tourney fisher or guide). It is just like signing my name. It is just like if I were a Doctor and signed my name Paul Myrdahl MD.
At least that my point of view

theguide_1

04-30-2002, 03:38 AM

I just want thank you all for particiating in this question, whether it be answering or just reading it. It's nice to know that there are people(the fishermen and women) that still have pride out there, and have not been commerciallized like the rest of the world.
Keep on fishing and dreaming of fishing, and be proud of that NPAA# becaused in my opinion it is the best fishing organization out there to help the common fisherman.

Question

04-30-2002, 04:55 AM

I think the reality is that the vast majority of "Pro" fishermen are not truelly receiving anything but discounts on company products in exchange for "the plug". Some may be under a big time contract for real "cash in hand", but I think that might be the exception rather than the norm. I know that some also get products for testing and opinions. I think that a vast majority are simply sporting the sponsors logo's without compensation unless placing high in tournaments. Most of this is just a guess, but I think maybe a pro can post a response to this?

I have read where the boat companies and other "big ticket" products are not given away. So the NPAA number is really not an advertising gimmic as it is not directly connected.

Mike Michalak

04-30-2002, 06:52 AM

Okay,

As a paying sponsor of this site, here's my 2-cents worth.

The question is the NPAA number. If you can buy one at Wal-Mart, then it's advertising. But, obviously, you can't. It's a professional angling organization that adds a bit more credibility to the person it's attached to. It doesn't bother my company one bit.

In that regard, when you post your question here on WC and get responses from "eyeeatum" or John Q. Public, NPAA #988, you immediately know the qualifications/expertise of one, don't you?

There was a posting that gave examples of "right and wrong" ways to list things. I agree. Maybe this can fuel Scott to provide a service to WC'ers out there who have sites/services of their own.

I respond or post here regularly with my full signature to add that same credibility. If I weren't a sponsor, would I be wrong? Is "Craig from Garmin" wrong when answering queries? You certainly know where he works. You also know you have the straight scoop. It's a fine line sometimes and it's Scott who has to draw it. "Private sector" ads are what's getting carried away and he's attempting to regulate it fairly. If FHS gets (and we have) out of line, he lets me know. Bottom line, this is his business and we're visitors. Let's play nice, and by the rules.

Huzaa Huzaa Huzaa

04-30-2002, 07:19 AM

Give the Mapguy a ceeegar!!!! Right on the money Mike. Seriously, some of you people are wound waaaay too tightly!! Mike is right as are several other posts here. Some of you anti tourney or anti pro types need to lighten up as much as the small type businesses that have been really abusing the guidelines. lastly, thank you Mike M and to the whiners and pot stirring trolls, "Shut up and fish!"

Sunshine

04-30-2002, 08:07 AM

Mike,
First off, let me say that I always enjoy reading your insightful comments. You're one of those guys that I make sure to read whenever I see that you posted something.

As always, you made me think and made me react. I was one of those ?guilty? guys who listed my guide service name and my web page with my signature. I took it off because I read the posting from Golden and I can live with his decision. As others have said before, it's his playground and his rules. I'm just a visitor here and I can live with it.

But, as a non-paying member of this site, here's my 2-cents worth.

You mention that NPAA is a professional angling organization and that adds a bit more credibility to the person it's attached to. This credibility issue was one of the reasons that I attached my guide service name and web page. I wanted people to know that my answers came from a guy who was trying to make a part-time living by fishing. I was trying to show that my insights were developed by fishing tournaments and that I may have "some credence" with my answers because I have done "some" small time presentations. Including my web page, I thought, immediately gave my qualifications/expertise. Just like your example of the NPAA #.

Like you, I responded or posted here regularly with my full signature to add that same credibility. Because I'm not a sponsor (small business with inadequate funding) it is apparently wrong. You're right, it's a fine line and it's Scott who has to draw it. MY "Private sector ad" was not there because I was trying to solicit free advertising. Most probably will not believe this but it's true. Besides showing credibility, I was also showing my pride from recently creating a web page all by myself for the first time. I was also trying to show others what was possible from the free web page offer through WC.

Scott lets all of know when we?re out of line not just the paying sponsors. He just did this in a very professional manner. He could have sent me and others an ugly private E-mail threatening to remove me from WC, but he didn?t. Thanks Scott, If I lost my WC privileges, I?d have to fish more or drink more ;-)

As always, thanks for letting me vent and share my thoughts.

Backwater Eddy

04-30-2002, 08:23 AM

One could easily make the argument that a full or even a part time tournament angler is a business in itself and prone to advertising to further it’s needs monetarily. Therefore by posting associations or affiliations he or she is in fact promoting his or her own business efforts, the business of “Pro” tournament fishing.

Many guides do not gain the bulk of their income from guiding, as would a part time tournament fishing pro that also has a “Day Job”.

So who is pushing a part time pastime or cottage industry, and who is the professional businessman pushing a product, the product being his or herself?

As far as posting outside addresses goes, if Scott and the crew at WC.com think it is not appropriate to do so, end of story.

Backwater Eddy

tbomn

04-30-2002, 09:17 AM

ditto......Even as a moderator here on the board, I didn't think of the advertising thing. I was proud of the fact that I made my own web page, and could show folks that I have got some expertise in the area of fishing. I didn't consult with Scott before I put my web addy on my signature, but should have, I was wrong. Now that I set back and think about it, I would feel the same as Scott does about the thing that i did, I appologize. I see the "fine line" about advertising, and I will follow it. Thanks Scott.......and thanks to the rest of you for understanding also.

Sunshine

04-30-2002, 10:21 AM

Okay, that's it. If you're confessing, I'll add my 2 cents. I didn't add my web page until you started the thread about the free web service. SCOTT, IT WAS HIS FAULT.

I feel much better now.

FYI,

I'm thinking about adding "Professional Guide" to my Signature. Is this legit? What's the difference between this and NPAA # ?????

They want credibility about being a professional tournament angler.
I want credibility about being a professional guide.

what do you think?

Backwater Eddy

04-30-2002, 10:35 AM

;)

tbomn

04-30-2002, 10:50 AM

I don't think that adding that to your signature is a problem, as long as it isn't "Professional Guide".com............

Yup, I did it, it's all my fault, and "kill me now" for doing it!
but in my own defense, I never posted a "first" post with my addy in it, only had it in my replys.
;) ;)

Backwater Eddy

04-30-2002, 11:03 AM

I will need to be in the "Shoot me line" too TBO.

:)

Sunshine

04-30-2002, 11:05 AM

Joe,

Thanks for getting me and out of trouble.
Per your advice, (Scott, you watching?) I have added a new signature.

This is a disclaimer notice indicating that if the new signature is unethical, immoral, against WalleyeCentral rules or in bad taste, ADMAN made me do it.

Let's all go fishing. I'd offer a 10% discount but that would be advertising, so I won't.

Shut up and Fish

tbomn

04-30-2002, 11:10 AM

Dennis,

Put your full name above the "Professional Guide". That way you put a more personal touch on your post, and there is some name recognition to "Sunshine". Just a thought! Heck, it's legal.

Sunshine

04-30-2002, 11:47 AM

Point well taken !

Harry

04-30-2002, 12:12 PM

But, how many NPAA members that sport those stickers, hats, jackets and shirts actually receive any funds as a pro? I think the previous post is right. Most are just wearing and displaying the logo's while not really sponsored in its true sense. Yes, the companies might have gone as far as supplying those things, but not really receiving the bucks.

Harry

04-30-2002, 12:27 PM

I mean that except for the few Tournament proven pro's, the rest are just fishing as Pro's while only "appearing" to be sponsored by a sponsor. As such, the NPAA is not a part of that equation.

I noticed that no pro's stepped up to say any different. I think it is an accurate assumption. Kind of like the stock car circuits. You could buy a product from a company, after "X" amount of purchases or money spent, the discounts kicked in for you as a pro and the so called sponsorship started. BUT, they would happily give you a sticker for your race car! So, you might have a product sticker and an NPAA number, but at what level are you purchasing and performing. And as to performance, I would imagin that the very few consistant tournament winners are the ones with the more lucrative deals.

just my .02

You miss the bigger point

04-30-2002, 04:12 PM

You need to go to the NPAA site and read the requirements to belong. Anyone can join, as long as they meet the criteria.

curious?

04-30-2002, 07:07 PM

OK, I went to the NPAA website and found out that once you have an NPAA number, that it is a registered trademark. Isn't a trademark that everyone can see business or advertising?

Jesse-WI

04-30-2002, 08:36 PM

Since there is a direct link to NPAA on the main page of WalleyeCentral, this subject seems a bit mute.

I would argue that the NPAA gains more by people using their numbers than the individuals who attach them to their post. The numbers on the posts lead to discussions that seem to cause people to check out the NPAA. So the NPAA gains by the use of the numbers.

Some purposes of trademarks are to protect one's product or make money by licencing it. For business purposes, the number and the person are the same thing. They can use their name and/or number to identify themselves.

I would imagine they hope someday that lures/rods/reels/etc come packaged with their numbers displayed boldly upon the package. Even though this would infer they are making money, there use of the number to identify themselves would still not be advertising.

If the goal of your post is to make money for someone, especially yourself, you are stealing from everyone on this board. As the primary customers of this board we need advertise to help ensure that this board continues into the future.

My opinion,

Jesse

Advertise : to make public announcement of, especially to proclaim the qualities or advantages of (a product or business) so as to increase sales.

curious?

04-30-2002, 09:42 PM

Yes, and the more known you are, the more a sponser will want you. The more people that see your name and number on the message board, the you are known. ADVERTISING your numbers= BUSINESS! Which means he(she) is the product he(she) hopes to sale. Please don't tell me that these people don't dream of big time contracts.

Doubtful

05-01-2002, 03:49 AM

The question is if any pro's really make any money outside of tournament winnings?

The true sponsorships go to a very elite few.

I doubt that there are over 20 sponsored pro's in the Walleye arena.

The rest have discounts and sport their favorite products logo's.

Notice the pro's do not speak up on the issue at all. Those with real sponsorships refuse to discuss them, while those just getting discounts and sporting logo's don't want to embarass themselves by admitting it.

don

05-02-2002, 09:36 AM

I enjoyed reading everyone's viewpoint on the subject. As a member of the NPAA I would like to comment on a few things. First, when I post on wc message board sometimes I use my number, other times I do not. It never crossed my mind or was it my aim to use my number to advertise myself. I do however use it to promote myself in other venues.
I can not agree with doubful that pros will not speak on the issue. I have seen numerous articles on the topic, and have contacted some of the well known pros who were more than happy to answer my questions. As far as refusing to discuss their sponsorships I can not speak for anyone else, but some of the contracts I have signed haved stated that I could not discuss the details to anyone. Also part of the deal was to display their logo. I am not claiming to be a pro or be sponsored, I recieve discounts from some companies and others pay for my entry fees. Before I fished tournies or ran fishing related companies I sported logos from my favorites. There are also differnt levels of sponsorships that companies offer, so I think it is unfair to say only a certain number of pros are sponsored and the rest are just sporting logos. Sorry I forgot to log on. Thanks, Don

curious?

05-04-2002, 09:07 PM

So are there any Pro's out there that want to speak-up on this topic? Some of us would like more info.

BlackSilver

05-05-2002, 07:29 AM

With all due regard to the fine folks who have them, these numbers are essentially an ego-stroking thing, and are meaningless outside the small circle of people who care.

SET the hook!!!

Hans/MN
#0000

Thats as may be,

05-05-2002, 08:45 AM

It is no different than saying you are an NRA member or anything else like a fishing club. The NPAA numbers are not advertising. Now, for the sake of sanity, let's go fishing and stop whipping this dead horse. Not an attack on you at all Black Silver, please do not take it as such..

John

05-07-2002, 02:05 AM

bump

WAZ

05-07-2002, 08:30 AM

I must be a "Pro" because I pay the higher entry fee than the co-angler and use my boat in the tournaments. I work full time to support my family and competative fishing addiction. I am a member of the NPAA number 586 to be exact. I you look at the main page here at WC the NPAA is listed. I assume they have a relationship and WC isn't against people used their numbers. I have a couple of boat related sponsors. They help me out tremendously to get and keep my boat tournament ready. Outside of that I pay my own way. "Doubtful", I am not embarassed in getting a discount from a boat manufacturer or dealer. I am greatful for their support. I am also proud of the fact that I can pay my own way. I use the lures, rod, reels, line etc. that I want to use. I do not have to spend time traveling and making appearences to promote product. Not that it is a bad thing if thats what you choose to do for a living. As far as decals and logos are concerned I do not like or use them. When I was a kid thoose things were cool. But if people want to use them it's their perogative. What ever makes you happy its American. Have fun and don't hurt anyone. Again I am not embarrased to get a discount. But I don't go out and solicite them. Alot of the Pro's work very hard to get and keep sponsors. I respect them for it. I also respect the wan-na-bes such as myself that fish competitively for the love of the sport. We sacrifice time from work and family and most guys have a hard time making ends meet to fish the big tourneys. So don't anyone be embarassed because they love to fish. One other thing if it weren't for us part-time Pro's paying the entry fees the big boys wouldn't be able to cash those 50k checks. So be nice to us once in awhile. Sorry I rambled so much I forgot what the question was.