Barbles hooks and no lindy rigs on Mille Lacs?

[REW]

With the current fishing situation on Mille Lacs, I am wondering what others would think of having :

no lindy rigs,

no bobber fishing - both result in gut hooked fish, and

requiring crank baits to have single hooks, no trebles -and

all hooks on the lake be barbless?

It is so sad to see those multi hooked fish floating on the shore?

I would think that these proposels would greatly reduce hooking mortality.

Take care
REW

[Dave in Walker]

Good ideas, the problem is only going to get worse with the water warming up and soon a lot of the action picking up on deeper water in the mid sections of the lake. Manitoba is barbless and I have never had a problem losing cats in the red river and they sure are easy to unhook, and if you did lose one due to barbless at Mille Lacs so what? This past week I abandoned leeches at mille lacs and tried jig and minnow with fantastic results and all hooked in the mouth. Whatever, something needs to be done, I feel the worse coming on. On a brighter side I did see some normal proportioned Walleyes on one spot that were chowing down on crayfish.

[REW]

Based on your earlier post, when I was up on Thursday; I fished mainly with a jig and minnow.
Plenty of fish, and all hooked in the corner of the mouth.

Take care
REW

[Backwater Eddy]

Once again, just because you can catch 50-100 fish a day on a known high mortality presentation during a high stress calander period, should you?

Gamakatsu circle hooks would help to limit the gut hooked fish dramatically, therefore limiting stress & mortality.


Backwater Eddy..><sUMo>

[REW]

Ed,
I totally agree.
As a matter of fact - with the current treaty regulations, rule, and political winds that are blowing;
I would propose something like - catch 1,2, or 3 fish - any size -- no releases allowed.
When, you catch this pre determined number - you stop fishing.

I realize, that this might mean that some folks might only fish for 5 minutes, and then have to stop fishing -- but if it would eliminate the hooking mortality; I think it would be worth it.

Even though, it is a very unusual experience to catch all of the very large fish - very easily - does not make it morally right - when you consider the implication of - basically hooking fish, that are on very short rations.

Take care
REW

[Dave in Walker]

Interesting proposal REW, I think it would work, if you could get the angling folks to comply. I wish the Native Biologist and the MN DNR biologists would work together on this and come up with a plan, but first the MN DNR has to admit the present restrictions are not working.Yes there are plenty of big fish but at what cost? Me, I'll stick to jig and minnow and release at boatside, thats my plan

[mmillelacs]

all very good ideas.......heres another one. ive seen the scenario i saw today played out far too many times on mille lacs this year. I watched a guy this morning, fishing with a lindy rig and leech, get a bite, drop his rod tip, play out line for 5! minutes, set the hook, reel up the fish, RIP his hook out of the fish's stomach, measure the fish, even though i could see from 200 feet away that it was way over the slot and certainly not a trophy,all of which lasted at least 5 minutes. Laughably, he then gently layed the fish in the water and seemed to almost be SURPRISED that the fish wouldnt't go down. He kind of sheepishly shrugged to the other couple of boats within eyesight and went back to business. I wish there was a time limit you could keep a fish out of water, say 60 seconds, and violating it meant you were keeping it or you could get a ticket and fine for careless fishing. Why not,careless fishing, as a ticketable offence?? When automobiles were first appearing on country roads at the turn of the century, the idea of someone being charged with careless driving probably seemed ridiculous too.. Well, I'm ranting so thats it, i just cant get that picture of that guy mauling that fish out of my mind.

[Hawgeye]

Please don't take this as smart alec or sarcasm but...I continually hear of so many people having so much success catching fish, what is wrong with the fishery that these extreme slot limits need to be imposed? I don't get it. I personally like what Manitoba is doing on the Winnepeg River/Pine Falls area. The limit is 4 fish, not more than one over 22" (I think that is the number) and if you catch one over 28" to keep, you mark your license and that is the only one you keep for the year.

Sorry but why is Millelacs in such bad shape? Have a reasonably slot, it will eliminate the number of released fish that die and give the fisherman something to eat. It sure seems to work everywhere else in the state.

[dude]

Hey they are just walleye, not like they are muskie for Christ sakes!!!Let us just eat them all...Bait fish for us and the muskie

[Ernie]

Here was an approach that I heard from a long-time Mille Lacs fisherman. Set a total length limit on the fish you keep.

For example:
60 inches is the limit - three 20 inchers would fill your limit, or four 15 inchers, etc. This way, we are not 'hammering' a year class exclusively.


BTW, my partner and I were lucky enough to fill our two limits yesterday (Sunday) afternoon in a few hours. We caught about 20 fish and found 8 that were in the slot.

[Tommy Mac]

REW,
I have not been down to Mille Lacs in a few years. I have been aware of a hook mortality problem there but had no idea it was as big as it is. You bring up some good suggestions. Rigging is a great contributor to fish mortality and the problem with barbless hooks is that a) a bigger fish, if gut hooked, may fatally injure itself during the fight and b) many anglers if required to use them would still yank the hooks out, guts and all. Simply cutting the line as close to the mouth as possible seems to prevent much mortality due to gut hooking. All of that being said maybe Mille Lacs needs a rigging ban. At least in deeper water if nothing else. I have not done a whole lot of spinner trolling but with the fish that I have caught this way, I have never gut hooked a walleye and have gut hooked very few (none till this year) jigging.

Others contributing to this thread also bring up some good points. It seems to me that the DNR has to revisit the slot issue. Perhaps a little larger slot with a no cull rule. I like the suggestion of a total inch's slot, at say 60 inch's. There are people who do not want to keep any fish but for the most part I think that these people are more knowledgeable and have better results releasing their fish unharmed.

I just hope that the issue gets resolved to the satisfaction of all involved. I can see the same issues coming up on other lakes that now have a slot limits protecting larger fish within the bio-mas. Hook mortality is a problem that needs to be addressed. Good Luck.

[mike]

I don't believe in gut hooking fish, but believe me this is not the worst part of this story. Thousands and Thousands of fish are going to starve if something isn't done to harvest these fish anyway. Either way were going to be looking at floating walleyes.

It's not too hard to figure out, skinny fish that bite like crazy? I've been up there 7 days this year and myself have taken(caught and released) well over 300 fish, this isn't normal!

[David Anderson]

REW,

All great ideas, in theory. As one who has been more than vocal about hook mortality and the overall way the lake is managed, I continue to get more cynical every day. Let's assume that these ideas are implemented, you might as well just shut down the lake period. No lindy rigging, no bobber fishing, no treble hooks, what's left for the average guy. Jig fishing and single hook trolling. You've eliminated all of the family fishing as they are complicated for most areas other than the sand. You have just eliminated 90% of the known techniques that most of the guys have learned to be successful and comfortable with. These techniques have been honed to the days when the average guy didn't catch that many fish, and wow, now just look at how "successful" they are.

A better idea might be to authorize a pass system whereas you can only fish the lake if you have been trained in the proper use of all tackle. You are inspected before you could even get on the lake to make sure that you do not have any banned hooks in the boat and have a cooler full of ice. You will not be allowed to have a net in the boat and all fish must remain in the water for proper hook removal and release. Once a certain quota of fisherman are on the lake, you must wait until someone leaves before you can launch the boat. Any fish regardless of size and hooked in a location other than the upper or lower lip must be immediately put into the cooler. Upon returning to the landing, all fish deamed to have been subjected to possible hook mortality and kept in ice must immediately be turned over to the landing attendent (except slot fish 14 - 16") whereas it will be turned over to the local band and assessed as part of their allotment. If that allotment has meet their quota, then the fish will be donated to either a local foodshelf or other like charity.

I just wish I had better answers than that. Heck, if you limit to jig fishing a year from now someone will be concerned about the amount of lead accumulating on the rocks. I better go take another blood pressure pill!

P.S. 44 walleyes yesterday, 136 total for the last 3 trips, 100+ caught and released on crawler rigs, ZERO gut hooked, all on tru turn hooks. If you fish with me, I supply all the rigs, as you are not allowed to use your own.

[Grey Wolf]

Speaking of hook mortality. Everyone says yep the hooks will dissolve. I caught an 18-19" fish yesterday on Mille Lacs, it had a 12" pice of monfilament comign out of it's butt. I lightly tigged on it, and it appeared as if there was more in there than just a piece of line. I snipped the line close and let er go. I would sure like to have kept that fish to cut it open and see what was in there. Do you think it is possible that it was a hook that had not dissolved?

[starcraftguy]

I have to agree with mike.. Do you really think that legislating how to fish is going to matter in August when thousands of fish start washing up on shore dying of starvation???. might as well enjoy the resource while you yo can However you wish to.

By the way REW might as well eliminate night fishing... I'm sure they would rather take the time to carefully remove a hook and retie than yank and kill a fish. (just my opinion)

[guest]

btt

[davey crockett]

After experimenting with circle hooks for the past two seasons, I would fully support a regulation on any water where anglers were limited to circle hooks while using natural bait(s). I have had only one fish in two years swallow a circle hook. Every other one was hooked in the corner of the mouth and was either fried in flour and butter or succesfully released.

[hawg]

threaten the gambling. the fish problem will go away.

[Kelly]

Why does everything always have to be so bloody regulated? And you wonder why our taxes are so high! Can't people think for themselves anymore? All this kind of B.S. does is make criminals out of all of us! If you're hammering the dickens out of the fish obviously they're hungry. Use a jig, hook them in a spot that's easy to get the hook out and carry on. Furthermore if you're consistently catching good numbers of fish then what's the problem? Just use a little common sense people!

[BlackSilver]

>A better idea might be to authorize a pass system whereas
>you can only fish the lake if you have been trained in the
>proper use of all tackle. You are inspected before you
>could even get on the lake to make sure that you do not have
>any banned hooks in the boat and have a cooler full of ice.
>You will not be allowed to have a net in the boat and all
>fish must remain in the water for proper hook removal and
>release. Once a certain quota of fisherman are on the lake,
>you must wait until someone leaves before you can launch the
>boat.

Well, that would certainly reduce the harvest, and would keep everyone off the lake except those who consent to submit to strip searches, or pay to go with approved commercial guides who come up with cockamanie plans like this! ;) ;)

Walk softly and carry a big fish.

Hans/MN

[Garrison]

I spoke with some of the game wardens in the area a year ago about hooking mortality. One of them said there had been a study on fish that died and what the cause was. He indicated that a significant number of the fish that were studied had died of natural causes, not hooking.

Now I know all studies are not perfect, and I also know there are a lot of fish that die because people don't know how to unhook a fish properly, so please don't come down too hard on me. I do wish there was a way to teach the average fisherman how to get a fish back in the water quickly and how to properly get a hook out without "ripping" it from the fishes gullet.

[About Time!!]

Thanks Kelly, I thought this whole thread was a joke until I read all the replys. Where do these people come from!?! Get a pass to go on the lake?? No bobber fishing?? No rigging, no night fishing, no trouble hooks?? Why don't we just fill in the lake entirely and build a golf course. It's acually frightning to think people could get this radical. Why can't we just enjoy the fantistic resourse we have and understand that nature always cleanses and recycles itself.

[DUDE]

This isnt Steve Kagarise or known as DUDE who wrote this garbage post. I fear and love the Lord to much to use His name in vain. So please use a different handle [dude], so not to get people thinking you are me.... Not that Im great or anything but I like to think I have a reputation among the people who know me.........

[what!]

The last think we need to do is protect more fish in this lake. Ever wonder why you cant put a line in without catching a walleye? There are two many fish in the lake. The best thing that could happen is fishing mortality since they won't let people keep the fish. If things continue the way they are the baitfish population in the lake is going to crash and then there wont be any walleyes to save.

[About Time!!]

I personally like the fact that the lake is full of fish. It sure beats hitting my head on the wall trying to get lucky and get two fish. I think the baitfish crash has already happened, that's the way nature is, up and down, up and down. There isn't much us over-thinking humans can do about it, and when we try, things get REALLY screwed up. Mother nature will and can do a much better job of lake management than us. I'm just going to enjoy the bite while it's here, and when it's gone, I'll sit back with my memories and plan for the next boom.

[Fish_on]

You seem to be making the assumtion that lower mortality is good and higher mortality is bad. Considering the poor condition of these starving fish, the best thing for Mille Lacs might be if we would kill every fish we catch. Nothing is going to save Mille Lacs from a major population crash except a huge reduction in numbers of 20- to 25-inch fish. I see the floaters too, and I really believe that for every fish that lies dead on the surface, that's a little bit better chance that another fish will live. The thing that makes me angry is that we are wasting this natural resource, it's just plain poor stewardship and the DNR is pathetically silent on the issue.

[Fish_on]

Here's something more to think about. I had a chat with the creel survey guy yesterday afternoon at the Cove Bay ramp. I asked him how many fish are people really catching? He said a lot of people say they are catching 40-60. I asked how many of those actually counted the fish they caught. Not many. But the ones who admit they actually counted the fish run from 10 to about 30. So, for many people that are having incredible fishing, they claim to be having 40 to even 80 fish days, and many of them really only caught half that, they just had incredible fishing and pulled the numbers out of a hat. The hooking mortality of 7% is figured on the numbers people give to the creel survey clerk. Is it possible that the numbers of fish being provided to the clerk are in many cases inflated? I'm convinced it is. I do not believe the hooking mortality is nearly as big as what's estimated.

Not all the floaters are walleyes either. I've seen carp, suckers, a muskie and pike floating too. And it wasn't that uncommon to see floaters long before this C&R fishing pressure was put on the lake. I think we might be overestimating the number of fish that are wasted, but even one is an injustice in my opinion. I was brought up with a conservation ethic that we are stewards of our natural resources and we should use them wisely and not waste them. Everything being done on Mille Lacs right now goes against that.

[Kelly]

Finally some common sense responses. Although it's not good at all to be greedy in any way, if a fishery is seemingly quite healthy with several year classes available then why not let anglers take a fish or two home rather than wasting and tossing back a dead fish. Maybe this will actually help people be more conscious of what wonderful and enjoyable resources we have, which will in turn help sustain it for the future. If a fishery is seemingly in crisis then shut it down to give it time to recover again. Perhaps a bit more input from the anglers as to what a fishery can handle should be implemented. Again common sense. I am just an uneducated idiot that cares about ALL parts of the system from the economics of the fishing industry to the health and sustainability of the resource, but to go extremes either way in most cases is more detrimental than beneficial. I'll say it again "COMMON SENSE".

[hawg]

i was there again yesterday. 3 guys/2.5 hrs/26 fish. the other two guys didnt even own their own equipment so that tells you their ability level. im telling you this ,a 26.5 in walleye should weigh more than4.5 #s. they are dying.we had 3 of them, the heaviest was 4.75 #s on a digital scale. i think the dnr had a pretty good thing going tell the tribe got involved.stay out of the casino,and dont give us that -we just stop there to eat-business. go to the goose or others that dont smile at you then ##### you.

[David Anderson]

Interesting observation. I put a counter in the boat and keep track. It often seems like you've caught alot more than what's actually on the counter. I would agree with the fisheries person.

New interesting fact, as reported by Thursday's Outdoor News. As of mid June hook mortality accounts for 119,212 pounds towards the total harvest. Based on my experience that number will certainly exceed 200,000 pounds.

[mr. common sence]

the idea of not being able to have a fish out of the water for 60 seconds is stupid and not being able to use a hook with a barb these all are remarks of people who are ready to cooperate with the flat out idiotic 14-16 slot i realease the fish out of the slot but that doesnt mean that im going to start changing my presentations! we need to spend more time pushing some sort of 3 fish of any size slot or something in that ball park , im sorry but talking about how to work with this stupid slot limit is making me mad ive seen so many dead fish floating im sick of talking about how to save them , i want to talk about how these fish can be kept and enjoyed!

[bustalker]

Somebody in this discussion mentioned something about stripping line when using a lindy rig. Stop stripping line!! Given the fact that the chances are about 90% that the fish biting your line will have to be released, it only makes sense not to strip line. I never strip line and my hooking percentage is excellent, especially on Mille Lacs. The fish are hungry! Many good ideas have been proposed on this forum but due to the treaty I don't see much change in the regulations. I definately don't see the state going to barbless hooks on Mille Lacs. I think all we can do at this point is use a lot of common sense and make the best of it. just my two cents.
bustalker

[bustalker]

Just got back from the big pond. We fished a couple hours last night and caught 8 fish. Fished seven hours this morning and caught 22. Honest count. Two guys. Two slot fish. I saw two walleyes floating and one perch. Some fish were skinny but most about average for Mille Lacs. The sky is not falling! (at least not yet) A lot of mayflys. The fish were suspended feeding on the mayflys. Some spit out mayflys when they got next to the boat. I am with the guy that said "enjoy the fishing while you can"! If you don't agree with how the state and tribe manage Mille Lacs just drive by and go to Leech Lake. No slot limit and the fishing stinks. I am sure they could use the business!

[Borch]

Fishing was very good on Leech two weeks ago and fantastic right now on Cass Lake. No slots and fish jumping into the boat.

In regards to Mille Lacs.

The sky is falling!

[bustalker]

Borch,
You make a very good point. I have heard good things about Cass and I know Leech can be good at times. Sorry if I bashed a favorite lake of yours. (leech) I have a tendancy to talk out of my a** sometimes! I am not a Mille Lacs veteran. I have only fished it for three years but in that time I have never had a bad trip. I have fished it in may, june, sept and oct during those years. I definately don't think the current regulations are perfect and I definately think the lake is managed for the wrong reasons (treaty poundage) instead of the right reasons. (biology) I am a big C&R guy and like to catch big fish. I am a big believer in slots and think they work when used properly. Many parts of Canada have seen the benefits. The bottom line is that there are a lot more fisherman than there used to be with much better equipment. These lakes get pounded! Without strict regulations to keep guys in check most will fill there livewells with as many fish as the regulations let them. I think the limit should be two! I know that won't be popular with many people but that is enough for a meal. If you want to feed an army or your friends and neighbors go to the grocery store! I know from personal experience and word of mouth that the numbers and size on Winnie have improved since they put the slot on the lake. (no fish 17"-26") I have been fishing there for ten years. Maybe the "sky will fall" on Mille Lacs and I will have to eat my words if a half a million pounds of walleyes float up on shore in August. I am concerned. When I read posts from reputable long time Mille Lacs walleye men like Steve Fellegy about there concerns I do take note. I think the fishing will drop off in a year or two. I hope it doesn't crash but is just a dip in the curve. I hope my points make sense and plan on enjoying this boom while it lasts. Good fishing!

[Borch]

Bustalker,

No problem. I really think the eyes are gonna fall hard on Mille Lacs. Certainly this is part of the natural ebb and flow of nature. But the crash will be more severe because of the current management practices. Management for reasons other than biology will get a lake in trouble. I've never had any complaints about the slots prior to the "judgement". Prior to the "judgement" the slot was based on biology, not politics.

By the way. Fishing was great on the Cass Lake Chain last week. Bring crawlers if you plan on going.

Borch

[REW]

The following response - is from the MN DNR, with respect to the above concerns:

REW


Thank you for your observations regarding Mille Lacs walleye. It is
not ikely that any regulation changes will occur this summer. You are
correct that the floating fish you see are a conglomeration of fish that
have died from being hooked and those that have died from natural
causes. Over the course of the year, more fish die from natural
mortality than are either hooked or are harvested by any method. The
"floating" fish are not counted as part of the state's allocation, but
rather a proportion of fish that are caught and released are assumed to
have died and are counted towards the 300,000 pound allocation.
However, even though a large number of fish may die from hooking (a
portion of which you ha=may see floating), way more fish would die if
they were actually harvested. Think of it this way. When a fish is
caught it has about a 10% chance of dieing if it were released; whereas,
it has a 100% chance of dieing if it were harvested. By opening up the
slot, way more fish would ultimately die, than if anglers continue to
release them.

Regarding your suggestions, we will keep them in mind when we consider
alternative regulation scenarios.

Thanks again,

Rick Bruesewitz

1837 Treaty Biologist
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources - Fisheries
P.O. Box 138
Aitkin, MN 56431
218-927-4814 / FAX 218-927-4121
rick.bruesewitz@dnr.state.mn.us

[David Anderson]

Very interesting.
In Outdoor news Rick states that over 2,000,000 pounds of fish have been released as of June 15th. At 10% mortality this adds up to 200,000 pounds of fish. Safe harvest quota's for 2002 is 395,000 pounds. This is based on a 24% safe harvest number which would put the total amount of harvestable fish in Mille Lacs at 1,645,800 pounds. If you subtract the bands 50,000, Ice fishings 50,000 and the 100% kill rate on 14 - 16" fish at 80,000, the total fish left in Mille lacs is 1,465,800 pounds. Basically every walleye has been caught at least 1.2X using pounds as the base measurement.

I was up on Sunday and the lake is in a frenzy. This is the first time ever that I had to park in the ditch, 3 deep, at the landing. On one flat I observed 10 boats and my rough estimates put at least 100 fish caught within 2 hours. I predict that if 2,000,000 pounds have been release as of June 15, by September that number will be in excess of 4,000,000 with (according to Rick) 400,000 pound sitting at the bottom of the lake feeding what crayfish there is left. But the good news is (according to Rick)400,000 pounds dead on the bottom is still better than 100% killing of 1.2X(soon to be 2.4X) the total amount of fish estimated in the lake.

BTW, Ron Linder was on KSTP last night stating that both he and Al in the 30 years that they have been fishing the lake have never seen it like this, and express considerable concern. He also announced his new television show coming out next spring.

[REW]

BMP