Thought Americans Should Read This!!!!!!

[eyecatcher_1]

After reading the post about school prayer, I remebered receiving this email a while back and thought I should put this out here. It's not meant to be discriminating, but I feel it holds alot of truth. I used my real login, with my name on it, so if someone has a problem with this post, let me know! But I am proud to be an American and I am tired of all the "sally's" that whine every time they get their feelings hurt.

Oh, I like Canada too! lol

AN EDITORIAL FROM TAMPA NEWSPAPER YOU NEED TO READ
THIS DOES SAY IT ALL!!!

This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a
Tampa Newspaper. He did quite a job; Didn't he?

>>IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending
some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on
Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority
of Americans.

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
"politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility
that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone
who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population
is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants.
However, there are a few things that those who have recently come
to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.
This idea of America being a multicultural community has served
only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.
As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own
language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed
over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of
men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian,
or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our
society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some
Christian, right wing, political slogan.

We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian
principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It
is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.
If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the
world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then
you should seriously consider a move to another part of this
planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we
really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is
OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle.

Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his
opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But, once
you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our
pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage
you to take advantage of one other great American freedoms, THE
RIGHT TO LEAVE.

[eyeamdaman]

AMEN!!!!!

[Ed_Eye]

Too bad our politicians don't understand this.....I as many others on this board, fought for this right of freedom. I reiterate, if you don't like this country....L E A V E.

Be Good To Others....It Pays

Ed

[hawg]

im sending this to our newspaper to see if they will publish it. they have an editorial thing called "other opinions". its great!

[jimbo2]

Too bad it won't fit on a bumper sticker!!!
I wonder just how many feel this way, I'd be willing to bet a greater percentage than it took Bill Clinton to get elected!!
Have a nice weekend everybody!

[browner]

AMEN BROTHER !!!!!!
IF IMIGRANTS WANT TO LIVE HERE THEY SHOULD LEARN THE LANGUAGE
AND BECOME CITIZENS.

[Rabble Rouser]

Excellent letter. Truer words have never been spoken. When you come to MY house, you live by MY rules.

[Jersey John]

AMEN and GOD BLESS AMERICA! JJ

[spin doc.]

i agree 100% but, lets see come september how many people stand by the GREAT U.S.A.SUDAM is acting up again and is looking for another ##### whuppen.i think the world needs to get rid of him for good.remenber this will always be our counrty and get rid of those who want to protest.you are either with OR AGAINST US. SO GET OUT OF OUR HOME

[Airwave(OH)]

Now this is exactly what I deleted in the School prayer post.. I've got a boot!!!

[water_wolf]

SLAM DUNK EYECATCHER!!!


Rich Ferguson

[BD]

Eyecatcher; Thanks for posting this. --- BD

[I-Bob]

Ever notice all those right wingers and protestors sure seem to like our money!! Does it not say "IN GOD WE TRUST" on every U.S. coin and bill? Maybe we should get new currancy? IB

[M]

We founded this nation because of religious persecution. The separation of church and state was extremely important at the time, as it is today. Religious freedom means just that. Not something forced upon us by a government.

[I-Bob]

M, not quite sure what your implyed meaning is? IB

[bigfish1965]

I think what M was trying to point out, was that there is a danger of becoming what the founding fathers sought to escape. As a Canadian, I enjoy a perspective of your country that most of the world does not get to see. That is one of a proud nation, fearless and determined. The seperation of church and state is however a fundamental principal that must be upheld. All the great battles being fought around the world are now seeming to hinge on religous boundaries. As these battles draw closer to home, we tend to develop an 'Us vs. Them' philosophy. As a nation strongly centered in Christian values ( One nation under God.) those who may not be religious or those who practise a different faith may feel persecuted as the nationalism attaches itself to the Christian faith. There are a great many Americans who make incredible contributions who may be Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist or even atheist. Many Native American religions still exist strongly in many parts of your great country. In Canada they wanted a "Cultural Mosaic', where everyone retains their own culture and religion, all equal under the law. Well, it kinda sucks. It doesn't work too well. I have no idea what the solution is, but maybe we should just judge the man by how he lives, and not by what he is.

[I-Bob]

Bigfish, well put! Ever think of moving down here? You can be my neighbor anytime! IB

[JIMK]

what ever happened to the bumper sticker " america love it or leave it"? Jim King

[oneforseed]

amen.
the guy that wrote the article should be elected to some position.but then he would likely lose some of his common sense.


"one for seed"
jim/co

[Ben]

Feel free to latch onto this view and watch the world pass you bye. The immigrants are adapting, it seems holding fast to views from a couple hundred years ago would be the odd position to take. The idea that this country was founded on Christianity is somewhat out there as well. I always though America was founded as a safe haven for the persecuted. A place where all walks of life where allowed "freedom of religion." During the wars that the USA has fought, I find it hard to believe the forces where made up of 100% Christians. With all of the crusades, and missionary attacks of the years, the amount of blood shed in Christ name is insurmountable. If you feel as though that is an accurate representation of the USA, you are allowed to have it. That is the great thing about this country of ours....Ben

[Thom]

Well put Ben. I don't much agree with you that just because an idea is a couple of hundred years old that its no longer valid, but you make other good points. As to the article itself, it is so poorly written that I am amazed that any newspaper would bother to publish it. I think what so many folks, particularly the ones who have never actually read the Bill of Rights, don't latch onto is that the first Amendment to the Constitution gave us freedom FROM the impositon of religion before it gave us the personal freedom OF religion. For those of you who have never actually read it, here the 1st Amendment is:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Thom

[SALLY]

Written by a true Native American. I guess the rest of us should shut up huh? Imagine when they told our forefathers the same thing. I guess it didn't matter though, huh? And even today, the lack of respect for the "true" Americans still exists. Soon you may have to mutter... Shatahay!

[jpo]

Agree with everybody!! Most of us are immigrants to this great land. The big difference is the political correct ideals our former president left for us to deal with. This country was formed on the ideal that One can say what every they want(to an extent). This ideal has been lost. Because someone may not agree with me or I with them, does not make them a "racist, right winger, left winger, or any other ism or er". Arguement breeds understanding. " If you don't like what one say's sue".
Why am I wrong if I don't agree with your lifestyle, I am the bad person. I may not agree but I will try to understand. The immigrant factor is a hard one. YOU ARE GUESTS IN OUR COUNTRY!!! TRY TO ADDAPT!!

God bless and have a safe weekend everyone!!

FISH HARD
JPO

[MK]

All of the freedoms mentioned in the 1st Amendment have restictions and limits imposed on them which have been upheld by the Supreme Court over the years. There is no absolute freedom of speech, assembly, etc.

What we are now seeing is a cultural/religious conflict between the United States and other countries who, through their religious foundation of laws and beliefs, believe that destroying America, its citizens, and its way of life is an admirable goal. This is where the "freedom" thing gets sticky.

We as a nation, have to protect ourselves and in doing so, we are percieved as anti-muslim, anti-this or anti-that religion. We, again, as a nation, will likely have to limit the religious freedoms that zealots now enjoy in our open society if we are to protect ourselves. Terrorists cannot be allowed to hide behind a curtain of "religious freedom" if their religious beliefs include the destruction of the United States.

it seems that everytime a suspected terrorist is detained, there is the requisite soapbox, canned speach by some "religious leader" crying about persecution. If we have to "persecute" every one of them out of the country to protect ourselves, so be it. The American way of life is not based on any particular religion but we should be allowed to ban any organization or religion that openly advocates our destruction.

[Ben]

MK, if we went by your views we would have to get rid of our own goverment and military forces. We occupy many countries is the name of national security, and that is a contributing factor in why we became the target we are. The KKK, the Nazi's and other groups have the freedom to assemble in the USA, along with PETA and other groups. You are far more likely to be molested by a priest than a victim of a terror attack, but I do not see the catholic church being exiled. What about all the anit-goverment militia groups in the rural areas of America, do not seemed to be so concerned with them. Just adding some food for thought...Ben

[MK]

I don't follow your logic in the assertion that we would have to get rid of our government and I don't believe that we are "occupying" other nations, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, and even there we are part of a multi-national force. However,I agree that our foreign policy, or lack thereof in some cases, has and will cause us problems and will continue to make us targets in the minds of some. This is regrettable but over the past few years our Rodney King outlook on foregin policy (Can't we all just get along?) has failed miserably and it will take some years to get our house back in order.

As to the Catholic church, I don't believe that one of their goals is the destruction of the United States and their priests convicted of child molesting will face justice.

The militia groups are a concern, but their small numbers pale compared to the millions of religious fanatics that currently would like nothing better than to nuke Washington DC. The groups you mentioned do have the right to assemble but neither the skinheads nor the religious or cultural fanatics should be allowed to advocate the overthrow or destruction of America. No country should be required to commit national suicide in the interest of political correctness.

[Gofish]

Right on, eyecatcher!!! One more thing to add. I've been flying my AMERICAN FLAG for 35 years, not just since 9/11, like some so-called americans.

[Eyez]

>All of the freedoms mentioned in the 1st Amendment have
>restictions and limits imposed on them which have been
>upheld by the Supreme Court over the years. There is no
>absolute freedom of speech, assembly, etc.
>
>What we are now seeing is a cultural/religious conflict
>between the United States and other countries who, through
>their religious foundation of laws and beliefs, believe that
>destroying America, its citizens, and its way of life is an
>admirable goal. This is where the "freedom" thing gets
>sticky.
>
>We as a nation, have to protect ourselves

Very true, but it must be done in a way that is in line with what America is, as laid out in the constitution and the bill of rights.

and in doing so,
>we are percieved as anti-muslim, anti-this or anti-that
>religion.

Whether you admit it or not, a good portion of America is anti-muslim, or anti-jewish, etc. You name it, you can find a group here that hates it. That's fine, but when hate is disguised as patriotism, we become the bad guy.

>We, again, as a nation, will likely have to limit
>the religious freedoms that zealots now enjoy in our open
>society if we are to protect ourselves. Terrorists cannot be
>allowed to hide behind a curtain of "religious freedom" if
>their religious beliefs include the destruction of the
>United States.

You would sacrifice everything that this country stands for, because you're scared of some people who aren't like you? You would restrict the religious freedom of another American, just because he didn't believe in the same god you do? You would turn the country into a Christian mob. You are proposing the repeal of the first amendment. That is a dangerous view to have.


>it seems that everytime a suspected terrorist is detained,
>there is the requisite soapbox, canned speach by some
>"religious leader" crying about persecution. If we have to
>"persecute" every one of them out of the country to protect
>ourselves, so be it. The American way of life is not based
>on any particular religion but we should be allowed to ban
>any organization or religion that openly advocates our
>destruction.

I don't have anything nice to say about that last paragraph, so I'll just end by saying that I think you have a twisted view of what America is, and that I think that what you're speaking of is so close to what Nazi Germany was like, that is disturbs me.

[Jminnema]

I really believe that the God of all American's should be God , not Allah or any other false god. If you don't believe in God go to another country that has your beliefs. This nation was founded as a Christian nation, for people that believe in God. The amendment was written so that the government would not force any religious beliefs or doctrine from the different churches or establish one religion, whether it be Catholic , Lutheran or any other doctrine, but to never deny a belief in God Almighty. If you are offended by my statements GOOD. You need a change in your life. Do you think I could get elected to the Supreme Court? Just my thoughts.

[bassinboy]

i'd elect you if i was old enough.

[bigfish1965]

This post illustrates the point I made earlier. Religious intolerance, disguised anyway you wish, is persecution. Referring to Allah or Buddha or the Spirits of the Forest as 'false Gods' is a statement of faith, not fact. If you are willing to collect the taxes of people whose religion is not your own, you must learn to at least respect their right to exist. All popular religions preach tolerance, respect and love for fellow man. If you call yourself a Christian, you should be willing to act like one. Only when you are dead will you know what God, if any, is the true saviour.

[Arnie]

Who left God in charge? Where did he come from? Why does he rule the roost? Perhaps years of mind numbing "God Programming" has left everyone a bit goofey! Though we can't actually see edges to the Universe, do you think there are boundries? Where did the Universe come from? Are there others? I can't see or comprehend it does not mean to blindly chock it up to "Gods Work"! Nor does the beauty or ugliness of the world! It is what it is and much beyond our "present" comprehension. Maybe some day we might better understand "reality"!

[Arnie, Arnie, Arnie........]

He rules the roost because he is the creator of all things, thats why. Or are you going to tell me you were created from a "big bang" or something? I would rather worship Allah then have your attitude and mindset about this, although Allah and God are one in the same. Call him what you want, but there is only one Creator.

[Arnie]

See how you are! Messed up! I'm sure that kind and loving god will send me to cook for that statement! Get real!

[risor39]

Arnie in the end you will see.But then it will be to late for you.God Bless.

[clc]

>Who left God in charge? Where did he come from? Why does
>he rule the roost? Perhaps years of mind numbing "God
>Programming" has left everyone a bit goofey! Though we
>can't actually see edges to the Universe, do you think there
>are boundries? Where did the Universe come from? Are
>there others? I can't see or comprehend it does not mean to
>blindly chock it up to "Gods Work"! Nor does the beauty or
>ugliness of the world! It is what it is and much beyond our
>"present" comprehension. Maybe some day we might better
>understand "reality"!

[Ben]

The USA was founded based on economics, if you feel otherwise you are saddly mistaken. I really do not have time to go into history lessons at this point, but religion played very little into the mix. Christianity has been used as a pawn by the powers that be for wealth, and comfort for the less fortunate. The Conquistadors, crusades, and the native americans where "converted" as they where raped and pillaged for their gold and lands. Taxation without representation had little to do with religion, and is a simple example of the creation of our country. If you want to quote the old testimate, you must learn hebrew as it does not really translate to english without much manipulation. I have just one question, where do you folks live?.....Ben

[Thinker]

Ben you have taken everything you have been taught in liberal schools and swallowed it whole. Not one word of what you just said is anwhere close to accurate. You need to start looking for the truth yourself instead of believing whatever nonsense is tossed at you. Time for you to do a little study of the history of this nation and the true foundations of why it was formed. It begins at the time that the pilgrims left the old country due to religious persecution. It will take you a while to get it all sorted out because you have been very successfuly confused by propaganda. I suggest you get started lest you live believing such foolishness one moment longer.

[Ben]

The mayflower, quite aware of their circumstances. Not sure how that releates to the founding of America. I believe it is you who was educated under sheltered circumstances. Liberal I am not, but I refuse to be ignorant. Rather than trust your memory, open a book, quite a bit of info out there. Think of fishing, in the old days they kept everything. Now there is catch and release, new techniques. Maybe "liberal views" are good for you when you can choose to apply at your benefit. Now that is American...Ben

[History Teacher]

You are not sure how the Mayflower relates to the founding of America??? Oh Ben....maybe there is no hope for you.

[Ben]

Well, Teach please explain to me the connection between the founding of the USA and the Mayflower. No need to go into great detail, but please try and make it somewhat factual...I am always open for enlightenment...Ben

P.S. The colonies where formed for economic gain of the "mother land" I would stay away from using them in any example.

[Sally]

That is correct as well as attempting to colonize the "New World" before the French could take control, in order to declare it for England. All financial. The reason the pilgrims were chosen were that they were so docile and easily controlled. Hardship changed them however and "many" "Many" years later, England was told to ram it. And yes, they wanted the freedom of religion, but that was not "The" reason the constitution was formed. They were tired of taxation without representation. The "king" had deaf ears, but wanted his bucks. So, no, religion was not why this country was born. It was important to those that formed it however just as much as it is today, but keep it out of government!

[Scoop]

How many times do you think you are going to die? Too Late for what? Life in the everafter? We are all headed for the big box in the dirt! That is it plain and simple.

God is like Amway........ Always someone trying to convice you it is a great thing, but always needing to convince people just the same. I'm surprised they don't have a "Diamond group" for best sales figures! That is a clue that it is not necessarily the hot tip! Speaking of "hot tips", wonder what god thinks of his Catholic priests molesting the kiddies! Bet that was not on his list of things to do, but does he stop that, no, just concerned about sending non-believers to smoke down south! Wow, going to smoke for that huh?

What a messed up bunch! Go god squad!

[bigfish1965]

Don't confuse the timeline by referring to the pilgrims coming to 'this country'. The pilgrims never came to the US.They came to a new British colony. While religion played a part in their decision to leave for the new colony, it certainly had no bearing on the Declaration of Liberty and the decision to form an independant country, later named the United States of America. The founding fathers realized that no matter which religion it is, it had no business in governmental affairs. Each religion has its extremists ( Al Qaeda, KKK, Sinn Fein) all claiming to be the 'truth'. It is and was the fear of any religious extremes that the ammendment was quickly added.

[Thinker]

This is revisionist history at its finest. You see, teachers are no longer allowed to teach anything about how the founding of the USA actually came about, because it was almost entirely religious in nature. So they make up stuff like this, and sadly, most people nowadays believe this stuff. If you want an incredible revelation, find an American history textbook from the 1940's and compare it to the textbooks in the schools today. You will be shocked at how much has changed. What's in most books today is simply untrue. And it has a decidely anti-religious spin on it. The most amazing thing to me is that we have all let them get away with it, and whether you are Christian or not, you should want your children taught the truth. We as parents have been asleep at the wheel, while liberal revisionists have changed the history books to make it look like they want it to.

[Bob]

The "God Squad" rebuts, or shows us their butts or.... never mind! Maybe your School District had those books as it was located near a heavily religious area! That also is a fact of life. That is why the seperation. To much outside influence from the church and its cult!

[MK]

I'm not for restricting any groups religious freedoms. Religion as it pertains to a particular belief in the afterlife, God, or way of life. That is, until it professes as one of its beliefs that the US should be destroyed. That's where the line should and will be drawn.

As I believe one of the Supeme Court justices once said, "The constitution is not a suicide pact."


If anyone considers this religious intolerance, you'll have to get used to it because the pendulum is swinging the other way in this country. Organizations/religions, etc. that advocate the destruction of the US will not be as gracefully received or tolerated as they once were.

[Stotch]

Good Idea, Maybe that so called judge should excercise this right also.

Leave.

That is after he is disbarred, lost his license to steal other people's money and play on others emotions.

Stotch

[Ben]

My best advice is look beyond your block. I grew up in the midwest, spoke to and respected my grandparents. They did not grow up reading the history books others speak of. I have my own education which because I claim to not "know it all" continues. However, I watched the events of 9/11 from less than a 1/4 mile away. I lived through the event, and the aftermath of having to waith a half hour to cross a bridge as they searched every car. I take the subway knowing at anytime things could go wrong. I knew quite a few people who parished. I also thought as I returned from work today, that there where no stoppages due to cars being searched. I am willing to risk a bit of saftey, knowing that my rights are intact. I think it to be foolish that we trust our goverment these days with our rights. If you see it in another view you are just scared, and our forefathers would cringe! Really, walk out of the court or around the block. Things are different.

[Eyez]

I agree with your concept, but I still do not agree with outlawing entire religions because they want to destroy the US. For two reasons.

1. Currently, there isn't a religion that holds as one if it's ideals the destruction of the US. There are some millitant islamic groups that are bent on it, but it is not a pricipal belief of the religion. If you start ejecting all muslims because of a few, you'll make the conflict worse. There are many millitant americans forming militias, who are aiming to overthrow the US govt. They're mostly christians, would you ban christianity too? Or is that exempt from your rules, because that's an "American" religion?

2. Remember the whole McCarthy era? It was essentially illegal to be communist. (yes it's a political party and not a religion, but it's an example) Remember the witchhunts that went on? That's actually what origionally prompted the addition of the word "God" to the pledge of allegiance, and making "In God we trust" our nation's motto. All out of paranoia that some other group might be trying to destry our country. Many innocent people were persecuted because of fear, and that is not the American way. Trying to ban a religion, or eject an entire religious group from this country would do nothing but make matters worse. You cannot find justice when you're targeting entire groups.

I don't disagree with your goal, I just disagree with how you'd accomplish it. :)


Eyez

[MK]

If we can, lets take the word religion out of the discussion. I absolutely do not care about religious beliefs of anybody else. Religion keeps being interjected into this issue at this time because it is currently some religious zealots plotting against us. I'm tired of the "My God can beat up your God" line of thinking.

It doesn't matter to me if a potential terrorist is wearing a turban in a mosque or a plaid flannel shirt in the back of Jim-Bob's pole barn.

My point is that any foreign national residing in the US plotting or advocating violence against our country should be expelled. Any US citizen, regardless of religion, national heritage, etc. guilty of the same crimes, should be prosecuted for treason.

The fact is that there are currently individuals in this country plotting against the US and using organized religion as their cover and they have been identified as the biggest threat at this time. Banning the religion is obviously not acceptable, but banning and prosecuting the illegal actions are acceptable and I expect our government to do exactly that to protect its citizens.

However, I still see nothing wrong with banning any organized group that has as a goal the destruction of the US. Call me old fashioned.

[Eyez]

George Carlin is god. Or Joe Pesci, tough choice. :)

"If we can, lets take the word religion out of the discussion. I absolutely do not care about religious beliefs of anybody else. Religion keeps being interjected into this issue at this time because it is currently some religious zealots plotting against us. I'm tired of the "My God can beat up your God" line of thinking."

Good idea, removing religion from a political issue does nothing but clarify it. Hence the seperation of church and state, which is what this thread was origionally about. :)

I think we agree on this, once we remove the religious aspect from the discussion, because in the end, the US has to protect itself from any and all threats, foreign or domestic. What bothers me is that for so many people, this has become a religious war. Christianity against Islam. People are being grouped and stereotyped, and we have the makings for a modern day crusade/jihad. We can go to war against a political group, but if anyone dares declare war on a religion, we could have WWIII.

[Schnauzer]

Thinker,

You caused me to break two of my own rules here - responding to a guest user on a politically charged topic and getting involved in this religious debate. But, I guess I can’t help it after reading your assertion that today’s history textbooks are “simply untrue.”

I guess I better admit something first. I have a BA in history with a concentration in recent US history (WWII to present). I say “admit” because using your logic, I am probably quite tainted by all the “revisionist” history you speak of.

So, that being said, I can’t disagree with you more. You are correct on one thing – American history textbooks from the 1940’s have little in common with those of today. The main difference in a nutshell is the “bad stuff” isn’t included in those old textbooks. Since those 40’s textbooks were written before little ‘ole things like the civil rights movement, their authors certainly had a different perspective. Those 40’s textbooks tend to be heavy in Teddy Roosevelt rough riding, Paul Revere, cherry trees, and in general – white men. On the other hand, they served up very light or no portions of Philippines killings, Indian persecutions, women’s history, etc.

You are entitled to your opinion but I am EXTRA curious about a couple things… First, you say “What's in most [history] books today is simply untrue.” What are some examples of this “revisionist” history, and better yet, what have you turned up in your research to refute them? I don’t want to put words in your mouth but I’m trying to get a feeling of what you mean – is it a legit concern or are you one of those whackos who think the holocaust never happened. Second, I haven’t met a history teacher who didn’t believe their materials to be factual. That includes a cross section of liberal, conservative, Republican, Democrat, etc. teachers. You say they are not “allowed” to teach different material. Do you know some history teachers who feel their course material is somehow politically motivated or incorrect?

I’m a big believer in the old saying – If you fail to learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it. Quite often, the bad stuff teaches us as much or more about ourselves. I’d like to think our country will never again have black marks like the Japanese internment camps, slavery, and the rest. There is much debate in Japan right now about how their history books are missing many of their own national skeletons from WWII – Nanking, Korean comfort girls, and the militaristic nationalism that led them to war. I am very glad that has the decades have passed, we are more willing to take a hard look at ourselves. Now if students can actually get taught the material to the point they can even say who George Washington was… that is another issue.

If you want those 1940’s textbooks back, maybe we should dust off the separate drinking fountains and get women out of the workplace too.

[MK]

Couldn't agree more.

Good fishing!

[Bob]

You speak like an anti-American. You had better start by honoring those judges decisions or all America is doomed. They are the say in this land right up to Constitutional Amendments by 2/3rds of the states. Walking about slapping down judges decisions from the hip because you just feel it should be your way is wrong. And that is the law! Now, if you don't feel you can trust your government, then just what government do you trust? Or aree you just an isolationist who lives in the hills with a pile of weapons and a bomb shelter thinking you are ready to take on the evil world?


Get real.

[Steve Small "SmallEye"]

I will admit, I probably do not have the historic educational experience and understanding of this topic as most, but I do take offense (and am not ashamed to do so)about posts like the one from jminnema saying that all Americans must believe in god...in the same god. And if we do not, that we are bad people. I have met jminnema on several occassions at tournaments. He was always very nice and cordial to me. He was not able to look me in the eye and see that I was a rotten, horrible, and evil person just because I don't believe in god. He was not able to because I am not a rotten, horrible, and evil person. I live by the same values as everyone else. I have never been arrested, never tried to hurt anyone more than they've tried to hurt me. I donate to the United Way. I spend time every week helping the elderly. Do I do this to please god. No, I do it to help others. How dare you, how dare anyone, tell me that I am a bad person just because I don't believe in the same god as you. I was very religious growing up. But that was before my mother was practically raped by our priest. Or when the next pastor was sent to jail for embezzlement form our church. Or when my parents were going to the church for marriage counseling and the pastor said that if they gave 25% of their income to the church, god would take care of their marital. Or how about priests preying on little kids or Jim Baker? Shall I go on.... because I could. If your heaven is going to have all of the "angels" described above, then I guess you can keep your heaven. Don't think it sounds like a nice place to visit.

Steve Small

[JohnF]

Cool! Leave for a weekend and come back to this! It took me an hour just to catch up.

I read the post that started this thread and really kind of liked it. Not so much because it said any one specific thing but because I could imagine a member of the Federal Convention standing on a chair and making his point heard. I didn’t post then because I thought that though the idea has some merit, it had enough emotion thrown in to sound like a ranting, and I hoped that the author felt better. I did hold a private desire say something and get a good old political discussion going.

Here are a few of my observations:

One of the first responses to the initial post was a single word. “Amen.” I chuckled when I read it and then a little more as the thread diverged into a Church –vs.- State debate. I imagine the responder might not even be aware of the slip.

It is interesting to see that our Canadian friend has one of the better grasps of the function of the first amendment.

Opinions:

Our country was not created just to give religious relief to a small group of repressed folks. Yes, there was a group that sought some space to believe as they saw fit and felt that an ocean might be just about enough.

Our country was not created for just economic purposes either. When this idea comes up we hear about the “taxation without representation” issue. A real issue indeed, but one that can easily be appeased sans-war by allowing representation. The colonists started getting tired of the feeling that they were paying for champagne and getting kool-aid. (How they even knew what kool-aid would be is beyond this essay.) Over time it became apparent to many folks here on this continent that those Brits weren’t sharing their ideals. So much so, that a fair share decided to take up arms and sever the tie leaving them with the practical matter of figuring out what it is that a government does; a question that has been and still is debatable.

We were founded on principle. Simple statement, tough idea. Principles exist in all levels of human endeavor and those folks sitting around the Federal Convention campfire had a pretty tough time making a distinction between principles that should be at the root of a human government and those that shouldn’t. They knew going in that every federation prior to theirs had crashed into anarchy or tyranny and still felt compelled that a federal form of government was right. In trying to forge a path that didn’t lead to the same destination, they felt one of the principles and tests that needed to exist to keep their federation healthy was a free exchange of ideas.

Sheesh, I have to cut myself off or you’re going to get an essay on will and law or morals and ethics. Anyway, I’m glad to see so many trying to get a grasp on the principle behind government. I too am on this journey and delight in seeing these sorts of discussions.
John Flaherty

[eyecatcher_1]

Holy Crap Guys!!!!! I put this post up, left for the weekend and came back to a full religious war!!! NOT THE INTENTIONS OF THE POST!!! I simply wanted to say, USA KICKS #####!!! and we need to start thinking of ourselevs as a country and see if the path we are heading down is where we actually want to go. I care less what religion you are, but the pledge of allegience was important to me as a child in school. It made me feel that I was apart of something great, the greatest country in the world.Did anyone ask the kids if it offended them??? Or did we just outlaw it? We keep taking everything like that away from our youth and what do you have left. A kid with nothing to believe in, no manners, no interests, and America becomes "someplace they live" rather than "something that's their's." Oh yeah, then they get bored, do something wrong, and WE CAN'T SPANK OR PUNISH THEM or you'll get thrown in jail.

We can't fix all of the political jargon in the world in a snap, but don't you dare tell me we can't fix the rest of this garbage in America. So my advice to everyone is the next time you think about whinning about something, get off your A## and do something to help make something better instead. We are all suppose to be on the same team remember!

[Aquaholic]

WOW......!thought this was a fishing page....lol.!some very interesting toughts here.I'm proud of those of you who are strong enough to stand up for your beliefs knowing the religious masses will label you satanists.To those of you waving your christian flag consider this.......you, me and the pope all have the same amount of information about the existance of any god. NONE.. The difference is that some of us free thinkers have dared to question what others tried to tell us about religion when things didn't add up and the rest of you(including the pope) have swallowed it ALL like hungry sheepsheads..! Life is a very short segment of time sandwiched between two infinately long periods of nothingness. Death is exactly like preexistance.... you won't hurt...think...dream....see your loved ones....fish...hunt...smile... If you have ever been anesthized for surgery you know what death will be like.You free thinkers probably already grasp this concept, those of you that cling to religious hopes and myths will probably be a bit nervous.....then mad and hatefull of course....that someone should challenge your beliefs. Now lets all go play our role in the NATURAL world and catch some fish for dinner.....!

[Al]

All of those attacks pale in comparison to those who killed to stop the name of religion. Stalin, Hitler to name a couple. Do a search on the "all time Killers of humans". You won't find a Christian in the top ten. I get a bit tired of all the talk...people killed in the name of Christ stuff. We've become the world's doormat because we don't want to offend. After 9-11, the gloves came off. The sad thing is, the body that is attached isn't complete. It's been allowed to deteriorate for years so as to not hurt anyone's sensibilities.

[Skeptic]

"Death is exactly like preexistance.... you won't hurt...think...dream....see your loved ones....fish...hunt...smile... If you have ever been anesthized for surgery you know what death will be like."

Just curious as to how you've become such an expert on this? I assume you are still alive.

[O]

Ever hear of the "Christian Wars", how long they lasted, and how many people were killed in them? How about "Joan of Arc"? The Christians were as "bloody" as anyone in the name of religion!

[MIFISH]

You are exactly right.....that is the first amendmant to the Constitution. Only thing is though is where was the 1st amendmant when Japanese Americans were being stripped of ALL their personal property and were sent to concentration camps in Arizona for the duration of WW2 by King Roosevelt and his henchman J. Edgar Hoover? Lynch Mob mentality rules when people get scared and to the Constitution be ****ed. Didn't police and U.S. troops support this gross violation of the Constitution? YOU BET THEY DID. WHY You ask? Because when a large group of people think it's right IT BECOMES LAW.

[MIFISH]

NO you could not be elected to the Supreme Court. Justices are appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate for a lifetime tenure. After they get appointed, those 9 justices are accountable TO NOBODY. The founding fathers really screwed up by providing NO procedure to CHECK the power of the judicial branch of goverment. We get to live by decisions of 9 justices and there isn't a thing you can do about it short of violence.