RCL outlawing Handlines.

[Chairman]

Guess what? I just got a rumor that RCL was going to not allow handlines after this year. Wonder why? Who just left the PWT (which does not allow the use of handlines) and joined the RCL.
I will call Charlie Evans at 270-252-1615 or email him at FLW Outdoors and try to get an answer.
All of us interested in fishing with handlines should give him a call and find out why? What would be next? Downriggers? Dipseys? Planer boards.
This stinks.
Chairman
NPAA #6

[harley]

how many illegal hooked fish have you caught?

[Big C.]

That would be awful. Handlining was a productive technique at both Detroit and Winnebago this season. It could play a role at the Championship at red Wing. Anywhere there is a river you can try the handlining method. Where did you hear the rumor? Have you spoken with Mark Dorn or Sonny Reynolds?

[perchjerker]

No more fish than guys who snag into one ripping jigs. Comon, get real!!!

[luvtotroll]

You obviously know very little about handlining. What are you basing you information on?

Scott
NPAA 475

[Cnags]

Harley, Have you ever tried pullin wire?? I know for a fact that the jiggers snag fish very often.On the other hand I have NEVER snaged a fish while pullin wire,or have I ever heard of anyone to snag a fish while pullin wire!How many fish have you snaged while trolling??? Yeah,that's what I thought!!!!

[More than obvious]

Does anyone think "Chairman" may have more than a passing interest in seeing handlining remain. Gill nets are legal in some states how about them?

[I EYE FOR FUN]

O.K. Guys let's be realistic about this. If everyone has to play by the same rules what difference does it make? My next thought is maybe next year they plan to have a tour stop in a state that does not allow handlining. I think someone needs to get the facts before we start calling for heads to roll.

[Ness]

I'll be interested to hear what the reason is for banning handlining if this rumour is really true. There are lots of techniques that inadvertedly snag fish. I've been guilty of it myself, I'm sure with my fondness for Husky Jerks.... reel, pause, fish comes up to investigate, twitch, snag..... yeah, I'm guilty. Handlining is a very old method of catching fish and the old ways are always interesting minus the gill nets that is... I've been following the tournaments this year and I don't see that handlining has consistently given anyone an unfair advantage so what's the problem, Mr. Tournament Director????? As far as Chairman having his own reasons for wanting handlining to remain, it's a simple enough reason, he enjoys it and enjoys teaching it to others. I think those are very good reasons for him to want to protect the future of handlining. I'd like some answers concerning whether this is fact or fiction and if it's fact, I'd like to hear the why behind it. I've been monitoring this board long enough to know that the people concerned also monitor it, so how about showing yourself, guys, and playing a little truth or consequences with us???????????

[This is not good news]

Yeah if you had a brain bigger than the size of a pea you would know that Bruce is the maker of one of the finest handline reels on the market today. I would think that gives him more than a passing interest. He has a business that depends on people using his products.
One of the reasons that made the RCL so attractive to me and to why I quit fishing the PWT was the fact that they didn't run under a dictatorship. They didn't outlaw legal techniques like the PWT did. The RCL doesn't play favorites like the PWT, and the RCL doesn't change the rules whenever they feel like it depending on the weather. If its a choice between keeping handlining or keeping Dorn I say get rid of Dorn! The RCL should not do anything like the PWT unless they want to lose respect.

[RCL Co-Angler]

I fished the RCL in Trenton this spring as a Co-Angler. I had the pleasure of pre-fishing with three different Pro's plus two during the tournament. I had read about handlining and was very interested in seeing how it was done. Not having much experience fishing rivers with alot of current, I never really got the hang of jigging very well, and was not alot of help to my Pro during the tournament. I had a chance to go and Pre-Fish with RCL Pro Rick Lacourse and he taught me all about handlining. I caught on to the method after about ten minutes, and had a ball catching and losing fish. After the first couple of times I wrapped the leaders around myself about three times you learn how it really is done right. I bought two handline reels before I left to go back home in Wi. Rick if you see this you'll remember the day I'm talking about. I'm shocked to hear that the RCL my be thinking about banning this way of fishing. To my knowledge it's legal in all states. It's probably the most fun I've ever had learning a new method of fishing. Mr. Evans, if you see this post, My vote is let us use handlines.

[Jesse-WI]

If I were guessing and rumor was true, I would imagine the rod and reel sponsers would be behind the ban.

[dant(or)]

Having fished with and been taught by the Chairman how to handline, I think the comment about personal stake is off base. If you can find a better man than Bruce Deshano, send him to Oregon I want to fish with him!

dan
Out in oregon land where the walleyes grow bigger and the current is really flowing west this year!

[I've beeen wondering]

I was wondering how long it would take for Dorn to make this another PWT. "SONNY" please don't let him do it, We have to much fun fishing with you all. Whats next "BOUNDRY'S or rule change's in the middle of the tournaments.

[Whats next?]

I bet they will also make us use a certain brand of boat! }>

[gonfishn95]

IT for now is just a rumor.Let us see what happens.
And to think I just invested in a couple of hand lines OH WELL

[terry]

can anyone give a quick definition of what handline or pulling wire means??

[jake]

the edited version of e-mail sent to rcl last night
to the rules committee:
i've been handlining on the detroit river since i was 10, (i'm 51 now) my #1 reel was made in 1926 and i can't say that there is a better way than that to fish a big fast river. i fished the second day of the detroit tournament with rick cole. we had a blast, caught a lot of fish and didn’t have to contend with 500 boats in the community hole. some say that the reason that you're considering this is because of foul hooked fish. every method will produce bad hook ups (some fish just aren't very co-coordinated) but in my experience jigging produces more foul catches than any other method. another reason i've heard is that a lot of guys are wining about having to invest in and carry another box of tackle. let me be the first to tell you, a fisherman is most often going to use the two or three presentations that he is comfortable with and not be bothered with antything else. i'm not saying that most guys can't handline i'm saying that they will do what they do best. please don't limit the best fishermen to fishing someone else’s way. more methods and presentations level the field and produces better competition. if your only interested in a dozen stars and their results just make rule changes like this and that’s all you'll have.(implying that the rcl will be on it’s way down quickly, just like the pwt.

[jake]

terry:
handlining consists of a large spring wound reel that is loaded with 80-100 lb. test wire line. a 4 ft. solid wire leader is attached to that, and then depending on depth and boat and current speed a 3/4 to 1 1/2 lb. sinker the solid wire leader has adjustable loops to attach mono leaders, longer (20-40 ft.) on top, shorter (20-6 ft.) on bottom. lures like raps, thundersticks and flatfish are run on the end of the mono. the whole thing goes into the water first the top lead then the bottom then the sinker. you let out line till the sinker is just ticking the bottom and adjusting as you go over structure, deeper/shallower. the spring in the reel keeps the slack out of the line.

[Oh well....]

This is no different than the Bassmasters or FLW not allowing livebait. Or trolling....

shut up and fish!

[banhandlines]

i would totally support banning handlines in competitive fishing. when do we draw the line. you do not even use a rod and reel when utilizing the handline method. i have heard many, many stories about how handlines take foul hooked fish.
where do we stop in the name of competition. don't you think it makes sense to use a rod and reel in tournament?
hopefully, the RCL will ban the handlines. the PWT did it and it makes sense.

[Gary Gray]

I have never had the chance to use the real handline equipment, but I have seen it used. It is a very effective means to catch fish. I believe it is a opportunity for fishermen to use another means to catch fish and be competitive. Therefore, it should be allowed. It is not illegal, nor is it an eyesore to general public. It is just very effective in certain situations. That would be no different, than telling me, that I could no longer troll or jig fish. There are more fish snagged jig fishin, than any other way of fishing. So, let's eliminate that reason for trying to throughout handlining.

I believe, we should all be allowed to fish to the best of our abilities, with whatever means allowed by LAW.

Just My Thought's,
Gary Gray, #10

[SLIPKNOT]

Anyone who thinks handlining isn't an ethical way of fishing should go do it for a couple days straight. Then tell me what you think. I don't see why it is unethical. Your using lures like everyone else, maybe they should ban bell sinkers in the pwt for next year so no one can use 3-way rigs? Come on guys, handlining is a lot harder than vertical jigging, and you DO NOT snag fish with handlines. But wait, Keenan snagged a fish last year in the rcl championship, maybe they should ban casting and using crankbaits. This whole debate i think is a joke. Just my $.02.

[FROGMAN]

I have to side with Gary on this one. It is a viable alternative to fishing big, fast, and dirty rivers that catches fish. It is an acquired skill that most anyone can use to catch fish if they take the time or interest to learn.

What it is NOT is a snaggers dream presentation ( I don't know where the guy in post 20 got his information from).

It takes a certain skill to be an accomplished hand-liner. Someday I will work at it harder, but for now prefer to use more conventional methods. That being said I see no reason why it should not be allowed in the RCL.

Tight lines

Keith Segar
NPAA #260

[perchjerker]

Oh jeeezzz

If you want to argue the no rod and reel thing, its much easier to land a fish with the help of a rod and reel. You have the reels drag, the cushion of a rod, not to mention the line stretch if you are using mono. Try landing a 8 lb fish with nothing between you and the fish except a piece of wire, then you will realize how much skill is involved. The drag is in your fingertips. These guys who whine about the no rod and reel thing are just showing thier ignorance about the whole thing.

[Tom (mich)]

The PWT erred when they decided to ban a perfectly legal means of fishing, I hope the RCL doesn't also take the elitist view and do the same. As stated previously, the lack of a rod in one's hand has no relevance. The snagging argument is simply ignorant. But fundamentally, the point is almost moot in that a handline ban would only lead to presumably "legal" polelining techniques, which are just as effective, and require no more or less "sporting" applications.

[Terry]

Thanks for the definition Jake. As i am not a walleye tourny fisherman yet, i would say this as an outsider: If it is not against the law then it should be allowed. Being this is a democratic world why don't they just put it to a vote of the pro's fishing the tourny trail. I would say that it does not sound too far removed from using heavy line, ocean sized reels and rods, and a downrigger. I would have to agree with most supporters of this method. I can't see where anyone gains an unfair advantage and the foul-hooked conspiracy doesnt wash either! Can anyone out there who wants to stop this give some light as to why, and have some real facts to back it up? Just asking.

[Sheila]

Dear Chairman,

Very sorry to hear about the RCL handlining ban rumor. You have contributed so much in the way of promoting, teaching, and providing equipment for this fun (and legal) way of catching fish.

Maybe your efforts and those of many other fishermen will promote the handlining method to the point of where it will become recognized as a "generally accepted" and/or "traditional" method in walleye tournament fishing.

Maybe the RCL WILL CONTINUE TO ALLOW HANDLINING, because they want to maintain their reputation for being both INNOVATORS and QUALITY TOURNAMENT PROVIDERS in walleye fishing!

My vote: ALLOW HANDLINING

Sheila Ryan
FLW Outdoors Member
NPAA Member #680
SKA Competition Member

[EYESCHOOL]

First of all, they are already telling you, that you need a Ranger,Crestliner or Lund boat to fish in their tournament!
Banning certain techniques is no real suprise to me!
If Ranger would have invented "Handlining", this technique would never be in question!

[Eyecrosser]

I have never used this method, but from what I know about it, don't you use several lures at the same time? That might be an unfair advantage if one guy can use a method that uses 4-5 lures at once as compaired to someone who only has one lure tied on. But then again, if everyone has the right to use this method, then maybe that is what they should do. Again, I'm very ingnorant when it comes to handlining, so if I'm off the mark, I apologize. What difference could it make as long as everyone plays by the same rules?

[SLIPKNOT]

You can run as many lures on your handline as you are allowed lines in that state. So here in wisconsin, running 3 boards a person is no different than running 3 lures on your handline.

[Hunter]

Its foolish if they ban it! It makes even the little guy in the 16' boat with a 20 horse on the back of it, just as competitive as the guy's in the big money rig's! Is that why they want to ban it, a couple local riverrat's were actually giving the big boy's a run for theyre money?

[downriverbob]

Earlier this year I stopped by and talked to several pros at RCL stop in the Detroit River/Lake Erie. One specific individual I talked to a PWT/RCL pro I had helped out with familiarizing him with Detroit River for the PWT the previous year and I had a discussion about handling(not being allowed in the PWT). This individual stated that he could continue to use a semi-handling technique in PWT by using a saltwater/musky rod and heavy reel and using the same terminal tackle as handling(wire shank, heavy sinker, and two leaders). He stated that several of the other pros were using this technique where they would normally be handling. What is the difference in this technique and handling. A different type of reel and a rod. I have handlined for over 35 years, I don't claim to be an expert, but I feel that it is a very productive way to fish, that can also be a physically demanding. Where I do it in the Trenton, Livingston, and Amhertsburg channels of the Detroit River you are not "pulling wire" over sand or mud bottoms. In most cases you are hitting rock, rock debris, and what ever else is on the bottom. The current is an average of 2.1 to 3.2 MPH, and this is also one of the busiest waterways in the world. As stated earler in the post you don't have the drag of a reel or rod to assist you while fighting a fish. I have landed large walleye and also a few fair sized muskies (try to hand land a musky sometime) while handlining. All these factors make for a challenging way to fish. If you don't think so come to the lower Detroit River sometime and give it a try. There are plenty of "river rat" that frequent this website that would be more than willing to pass on their knowledge of this technique, if you are willing to try.

[Al]

In a sport that utilizes trolling in so many different ways, you want to ban handlining because it's unethical or unsporting? It's another effective way to catch fish. You have to make them bite. It's no less fine or ethical than trolling. What next ban live bait?

[ebijack]

just a bit of info: bruce and his son have been handlining for many many years..he only began selling the reels/lines/hardware a couple years ago.
if a technique works, it's legal, wouldn't you want to do it? trolling works, should they eliminate that? eliminate live bait because fish tend to take it deeper in the throat than plastics causing mortality rates to go up?
reasons for elimination of applications are needed..IMHO

[Huskernut]

Sounds like you are another one of those cry babies with the wrong boat. My Skeeter doesn't fit in their format either, but my entry money is ready for the co-angler side as soon as the entry forms are out. I hope they don't let Dorn ruin the RCL before I get a chance to learn how to handline!

[TJ]

downriverbob:

You hit the nail on the head. If the RCL bans 'pure' handlining, the pros will adapt and 'pole-line.' I persoanlly have never handlined, but I did exactly as you described when fishing the RCL in Detroit this past spring. I rigged two musky poles with heavy superbraid, crimped up some 'shanks, bought a few sinkers at BottomLine Tackle and went out to learn. After a few hours working out the kinks in the presentation, I managed to get a pretty good feel for what 'handlining' is all about, even though I still had a pole in my hand. Given the conditions the first day (after the rain), I choose to pole-line. It was very effective. My co-angler and I had four lures in the strike zone ALL DAY LONG. Instead of constantly tying on jigs and baiting up minnows with frozen hands, we stayed warm, pulled fish after fish, changed out the occasional broken-billed Rapala, and hung a nice basket. Same thing on day 2. Day three didn't go as well, but that's another story...

Personally, I hope they don't ban handlining. But if they do, I'm ready.

TJ

[Shep]

Not to argue your point, but the RCL allowed 2 lines, or boards per person in WI tournies. I did not pay that close attention, but I assumed that meant 2 lures max per person, also.

Tight Lines All,

Shep

[SLIPKNOT]

Yea, forgot about the 2 lines per person thing. Thanks shep!

[guest]

The PWT may have banned it but I think everyone just changed its name from hand lining to pole lining! Whats the difference? Does not make sense to me to ban something when a good alternative such as a heavy duty 4' husky rod works in its place. Just my 2 Cents

[Guest]

WHy would it be banned? I am pretty sure the winners of the last two major tourny's(RCL & PWT) on the Detroit river were won by jiggers.

How many hand liners finished in the top ten at the Detroit RCL? I know of one for sure. WHy would you ban a technique that is not dominating the field? It does not appear to offer an unfair advantage over a jigger using two poles at once.

[Ban tip ups too then]

nm

[stevefellegy]

Mr. Chairman....if I may....

First, my take on this and other rules involving presentation is simple. If the law permits, let's do it....within recognized fishing ethics. Meaning, as an example, livebaiting within the MAJORITY of the bassing world is not sporting, therefore not legal or accepted within the competitive world of bass fishing. Surely, handlining isn't, within the MAJORITY of the walleye world, either accepted or frowned upon. So......"why ban it" is my take. You wanna handline, all power to ya. (even though I don't know how to do it, lol, and I have BAAAAD memories involving the subject, if you know what I mean, Bruce lol)

Second, although I understand your reason for posting this "rumor", so as to head off any final decision, I find this thread leading to a personal attack on Mark Dorn, as also insinuated in the original post. Although defending Mark by me, based on our previous history might sound strange, I DO feel this is unfair at this point. Without getting into a one on one debate on the issue with Mark and the RCL staff, presuming Mark is the reason this is a potential rule change, is NOT a good approach. Mark Dorn has changed several things in regard to how the RCL events shook out this year to the better. So....
Let's discuss the issue of 'should handlining be banned or not'. That's healthy. NOT prematurely blaming anyone for the "RUMOR". Which of course, it STILL is.

[sevenmmm]

Pfffft! Just what difference would it make if they banned handlining?

A real issue would be if they banned boat motors!

Rick

[Tom Vanderweide]

You never stop do you Harley?

[fatboy]

can i buy one of these handlining reels at walmart ?;-)

[Skeeter]

VERY well put Steve. I agree 100%. This site isn't for finger pointing, let alone a personal attack especially when it is a rumor anyway. This post will only get guys fired up against the RCL and of course Mark. Mark tries to please everyone. It is impossible to to do that. I was once told that if you can please 51% your doing good. Hate to say this but I think in my opinion, one of the other reasons this post came about is a personal agenda, meaning sales for reels might go down....

[stevefellegy]

Mr. Chairman, if I may....

Let me add, in my feeble opinion, that if the majority of the players agree to a rules change or the like, then so be it, either way.(even though I have strongly disagreed with some of the rules or changes) I don't know the feelings of the boys (and girls) on this one, yet....
That said, as another example of how some things or thinking works, is how the PGA rules on the use of carts. The majority of the players agreed carts should not be utilized. What's the difference? I don't know, except it seems it lowered the bar as a competition. It seems the carts take something away from the "pure" sport of golf.
This is one where the players need to use their weight, either way, and influence the decision.

[Chairman]

Skeeter, it is not about sales, the few reels we sell each year don't pay for my promotion effort. and we will sell them anyhow. It is about banning a legal method of fishing. We don't want to end up fishing on the front of the boat with one rod casting for walleye. We all know they are much more nomadic than the toothless fish. I would defend the right of any fishing method and those that know me know that.

Steve, it was said in Detroit even before the man's suitcase was unpacked that the handline issue was going to be brought up the end of the season. Nothing personal on my part, just relaying the fact. I did a handline segment with the FLW cameras there at the same time.

Talked to Charlie Evans today and he said it was just a rumor, but it was one of the many issues being looked at for changes in 2003. Remember the nice thing about the RCL rules is that once they are printed, we have them for the whole year. I wanted to be sure the allowable fishing methods for walleye were left intact.


Chairman
NPAA #6

[Skeeter]

I respect your answer, if you say it has nothing to do with sales I believe you. I appreciate your honest answer.

[fatboy]

The river bottom is all up and down and the current is fast and there's walleye on the bottom.Back in the depression some hungry fisherman figured out how to get them with a hook and line method.You have to respect that !

[EYESCHOOL]

No sir! I could care-less about which brand of boat is needed for entry. I'm simply pointing out that, "There shouldn't be any suprises in this tournament". When you regulate a tournament by which brand of boat your allowed to run, alot of other commercially promoted rules are bound to show their ugly heads!

[walleyeken]

hey lets all get real here,all fisherman will do whatever it takes to catch fish!!!!!! either it being a tournament or a day on the lake with the family&friends.and handlining is one of the many was of catching fish. to charlie evans if you worried about handlining,why is the rcl having tournaments in the detriot river?let the pro,s fish how they want to after all the walleye fisherman is the rcl not you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sevenmmm]

Handlining looks bad. Most fisherman across the country (yes yes yes with a few exceptions) think of catching fish with a rod and reel.

It isn't going to look good when a fishing show keys in on a handliner bringing in a fish. 99% have to agree that watching a surging fish on a bent rod has a certain thrill to it!

Its not what we (I've only been a co-angler so I only get 1/2 vote :-)) like, its how it plays to the fishing public.

I hope they ban it!

[Mark Sak]

My two cents for what its worth is, many Great Lakes anglers are also at a pretty big disadvantage when going to lakes where slip bobering excels (Mille Lacs for example)...Doc Sampson is a pure genius at it...Should we ban it because many of the open water trollers of the Great Lakes are at a disadvantage? Absolutely not...I want to become a better slip bobber angler and must if I am to compete at this level...So why are tournaments disallowing them, because of the technique or because some people are just genius at it? If it is the latter reason then it is wrong... The worst thing that really happens here is the folks on the Columbia or Mississippi may never experiment with new or different techniques such as handlining if they are not taught...and we are supposed to be the teachers...I have handlined on the St Clair River for 25 years, but usually pick up a jigging rod during a tournament...Great back up to have though...Again just my two cents, and we know how far two cents go these days...Mark

[Jeff Berg]

Handlining can be very dangerous to ones hands. There has been many fingers lost and deep wounds are common even for experienced handliners.

The RCL isn't trying to discriminate against anyone in particular, they simply don't want to put their co-anglers health at risk.

[SUPERTROLLER]

Skeeter, I would bet the majority of their sales are to Michigan anglers for fishing the Detroit River. A short time ago it was getting very hard to find these set-ups. Now that they are more available, more people are handlining than ever before. Since it is a legal method of fishing in Michigan, they will continue to use a very effective method in deep fast current. It doesn't really matter to most of the people buying these reels if it's PWT or RCL legal. It's legal for us. I've never done it but have set up a reel for polelining and also use it in very deep water while slow trolling. It definitely keeps me on the bottom.

[SUPERTROLLER]

If you have ever caught anything big on a tip-up and had to hand-over-hand fight it thru an icehole, you can understand what handlining is. Think of it as icefishing in the summer from a boat with a fish twice as energetic. Just because most of the population doesn't know how to icefish, doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize it as a legal and viable method to take fish. Your arguments ring hollow to me.

[Bobbin]

Well the good news out of the rumor mill is that they are going to BAN HANDLINES, and introduce JUG FISHING,TROLLY LINES,and of course GILL NETTING which are all very good presentations to harvest fish. You guys need to get a life and quit whineing, and shut up and fish.

Protect our jugs!


Bob.

[Skeeter]

Supertroller, I am kicking myself for even commenting on this subject as I am not a tournament fisherman or even a handliner.

[Huh?]

Going fast in 20 foot boats is dangerous too - perhaps a 30 mph speed limit? Come to think of it, those sharp hooks endanger lots of pros and con-anglers alike - so they're gone too. Ban handlining because it's "dangerous"? I hope you were joking.

[SUPERTROLLER]

Have you ever handlined? How much do you know about it? Did you know that most people wear gloves when doing so? Has anybody been injured during a tournament while handlining? I think your response here is just another person grasping to find a reason by spewing unsubstantiated nonsense. When you can post a fact based response with names of injured party's, I'll gladly apologize.

P.S. I heard about a guy that got snagged by a hook from his partner casting. Shouldn't we outlaw rods so someone else doesn't have to duck every time the other guy in the boat decides to sling another cast? Or make them use short rods so they can't reach to the other end of the boat? It would be safer.

[perchjerker]

Yea, the comment about it being dangerous is way out in right field. Personally I dont wear gloves, I do use a leather finger sometimes, though. And you dont wrap the line around your finger, you "weave" it through your fingers so it can slip out easily. Its no more dangerous than the guy who snags his lure and yanks on it only to have it come loose and shoot back causing an eye injury to his fishing partner who is not paying attention.

[Al]

Comparing hand lines to golf carts is quite a bit different. Golf carts are a major change and only brought about because of one player who needed it to compete. Handlines are already legal. Handlines can be used by anyone. Handlines offer no more of an advantage than other methods in other situations. A golf cart is a golf cart is a golf cart. Handlines are already legal.

[Al]

And running tournaments on Great Lakes bodies of water is pure safety too? How about banning treble hooks on cranks? Stop in to Magruder Hospital sometime in Port Clinton and ask them how many hooks they remove when PWT is in town...and during the rest of the year. Losing fingers isn't as common as you make it out to be.

[Just a guess]

Maybe Co-Angler safety? (below info - safety and health in the fishing industry)

Fishing is a profession associated with risk-taking. Elements of risk of various sorts and degrees are inherent in almost every decision made by a skipper or individual fisherman -- decisions on when and where to go fishing, whether to head for shelter, *what method/gear to use*, whether or not to change a fishing spot, etc.

Such decisions take into account weather changes, the condition of the fishing vessel and equipment, *the training, condition and dexterity of the crew*, and so on. They depend on the skipper's culture, individual attitude, experience and skill.

Fishing is highly competitive. Highly successful fishermen or "highliners" enjoy tremendous prestige among fisherfolk and their communities. Prestige considerations may motivate skippers to take unnecessary risks. This being said, it may also be true that, over the long term, success may also relate to the ability to avoid risks. Accidents may happen to those who aspire to be "highliners" *yet lack the required ability to calculate the risk they are taking*.

What it takes to be a highliner

This is what it takes to be a highliner.
You have to go to find the fish before the other guy finds them and when you do you have got to make them bite better than the other guy. When the bite is on, you have to work your gear faster than the other guy. And you don't stop to eat as often as the other guy; better yet, you don't eat at all. Most of the time this will give you the little edge you need to beat the ##### out of most.


Why do accidents happen?

Faced with economic and competitive pressures, fishermen are prone to take calculated risks, *unless the crew is well prepared and trained*, disaster strikes.

[jake]

jeff, when was the last time that you handlined? i've been around the detroit river all my lif and have NEVER heard of any one losing a finger not even boys telling horror stories. do you have some stats. that you want to share? if you want to talk about line cuts and safety then lets outlaw fireline i'm sure everybody KNOWS someone who has been cut to the bone.

[No, It won't]

The RCL is, and may be even more successful in the future. It will NEVER compete with bass angling though, nor will the PWT. In terms of sheer fisherman and size, walleye angling is not even close. Further, if anything, half of the RCL stuff turns off anglers. The BASS tourney was essentially split apart, the PWT wasn't big enough to do that and leave crumbs for everyone.

Further, owning a boat of a certain brand does not make you a "pro". I actually received a call from an RCL guy this year who fishes the bass side and helps out at RCL tournaments. He wanted me to enter the RCL because they needed more anglers at the time. I mentioned that I was sponsored by "non RCL" boat manufacturer (he knew this) and his response was "so" - get an RCL boat. I was polite and said that was not appropriate, he then said I should get in as a co-angler. I think the entire point was missed, I was flattered to be asked because I'm not a "name", but...

I do not seek to knock the RCL, I in fact like the idea. But let's face it, the idea of the RCL is sell boats (ok w/me), reduce what they feel is "pack" fishing by reducing the field as you go, and they've tapped into some pretty rabid fisherman in the Lund and Ranger folks who feel strongly about their boats and I would guess generally about the RCL.

That said, if you are fishing for walleye without a rod, you are not gettin my sympathy. It is also legal to limbline, setline, jugline, and natives can even net in some states. I guess every legal method should be allowed or maybe it's reasonable to say - use a rod.

[LOL]

:-)

if anything sales will increase with a renewed interest in handline useage because 99% of us are just plain jane eye anglers!

[RCL Co-angler]

I had the following unpleasant experience while handlining at the Detroit River this past April.

I had hooked into a larger fish and had brought the shank in the boat. I was pulling in the mono leader when the line went into the prop. This caused the line to quickly be pulled back out of the boat. The line was wrapped around my shoulder and arm. The line was immediately pulled tight and began to pull me overboard. Luckily, I was able to get a good hold on the boat and break the 25-lb line but not before severly bruising my arm and scaring me to death. It could have been much worst.

Also, I snagged the bottom and instinctually held the wire tighter to try and free the snag. Thankfully, I let go of the wire (which was coated) and only burnt my hand instead of taking off part of it.

So please don’t tell me that handlining is not dangerous.

[Tom (mich)]

I don't think anyone said handlining couldn't be dangerous. I've done it for a couple of years, and haven't been injured myself doing it. What the theme was is that there are many "dangerous" aspects to fishing including sharp hooks, fast boats, and others.

If you'd support the ban of handlining based upon this single incident, would you conversely ban the other aformentioned "dangerous" aspects? Go ahead and debate the merits of this method on other grounds such as ethics, etc., but please leave the "danger" component out of it! Heck, I whacked my knee on the desk in my office this morning, but I'm still going to keep the furniture.

[Dan(MI)]

I live in Detroit Area, and have fished the river for many years, I used to despise handliners until I learned how to do it. I'm good at jigging, and as of last year I can now say I'm good at handlining. I have even polelined. All three methods catch fish. I don't have a real favorite as I just enjoy pulling in walleyes in April anyway that works. I'd like to fish the RCL, but if they ban it I'll grudgingly poleline as that takes a little more muscle.
Lets go fishin
Dan(MI)

[Todd_NE]

I am most interested in the fact that there have been no statements from RCL officials either denying or supporting that the banning of handlining might occur in 2003. From what I've gathered about the RCL from reading from those "in the know" on this board the RCL is very fisherman friendly, etc.

It would be simple for one of the officials to say on this board:

"It's under review...."
"We have not considered this...."
"Rumors are unfounded..."
"We would prefer not to speak to this on this forum, but because their is such widespread interest we would like to say..."

Whatever. In the world of public communication, no comment after a period of time becomes de facto, a comment. Like most things in life, people can over time support a decision no matter the choice if they feel informed and listened to.

Unfortunately, many organizations that rely on the public for their funding and support do not choose not to respond publicly when in a time of needed communication.

Either way, I'm sure the loyal RCL faithful will support the circuit next year, rod in hand or not.

Todd

[downriverbob]

Tom,
You hit the nail on the head. I am handliner, but also am an experienced fisherman about 40 years experience. Any and all outdoor activities have a certain risk factor. This risk may rise and fall with the level of experience of the participant. I have been injured handling cuts on fingers from line cuts, being finned by fish, but nothing serious. I don't fish the RCL/PWT as an amateur or pro so my only concern is the bad rap that handlining has received by others on this posting. This method of fishing is no more dangerous than any other. I question the motives of those who propose the ban of this form of fishing in tournaments. I wonder why after being utilized in the PWT it was banned now possibly in the RCL ?

[sevenmmm]

Supertroller? My arguments are hollow? Just explain to me how a fish being hauled in by a handline would look excitng on a tv show?

Maybe if they take a close up shot of the line slipping through your fingers? Well, maybe if the line got tangled in them!

There is no better tv shot in a fishing show than a fish pumping the rod and peeling out line from a reel!

It isn't my argument that's hollow!

[eyebuster]

co-angler says he just about got pulled into the river handlining because the line was wrapped around his shoulder and arm, then it got into the prop, I have two question, What the he!! did you do that for? I'd say you put yourself in danger!! Two, Was the pro an experienced handliner? Or a pro that was handlining? ooops that was 3 wasn't it? What the he!! was he or she doing not being in control of the boat when a nice fish is on the line.

IMHO, It is not handlining that is dangerous, it is the handliner..Go out and learn how to do it (the right way) and quit foaming at the mouth because some people do it well...

Jeff needs to do a little more research before posting just to post that kind of trash.....Everything is in my profile take a peek, and if you want to talk fishing e-mail me and I'll send you my ph. # and we'll talk, or better yet lets go handlining and learn how to do it right. Some of us river rats are pretty good at it and I promise not to knock anyone in the water......

[Bobby]

Handlining is not legal in all states. It is illegal in Wisconsin for instance. If you were to fish in an RCL or RCL qualifying event in Wisconsin, then it would be illegal. You would be forced to use a pole whereas in another state, you could use any technique. A fisherman that would use this technique would be unfairly handicapped if fishing in Wisconsin. So, to be fair, the allowed techniques must be uniform in all states of competition. And the State DNR's control that.

[SUPERTROLLER]

You're right. It's your head that's hollow. It doesn't matter what a T.V. crew films. People are trying to win a tournament by any means that is legal in that State or on that body of water. Fisherman can learn a new method or idea and adapt it to where they fish. THAT is what T.V. viewers want to see, the latest, greatest, newest thing going. They don't want to see slot limit or No-Cull fishing. That's not the guy catching the most poundage for the day. That's the guy catching his fish in the luckiest order. That's what should be changed about the PWT and RCL. Don't go to those overly restricted lakes that do not give a fisherman the real chance to show who's catching the biggest Hogs.

[EYESCHOOL]

There is very little uniform from state to state. Actually there is not really much uniform from one body of water to the next. So, Actually, There is no "Just" reason to ban any technique (where legal)
in any fishing event. However, the tournament directors and sponsors can make the rules however they want. (Afterall, this is still America isn't it)? Nobody is making anyone fish this tournament series. "If you don't like it don't fish it"!

[Capt. Paul]

Any legal method of fishing should be legal. Any ban on the handliners will create a larger group of poleliners. As far as a safety issue, have handlined for several years and have had no problems at all. Lets hope the RCL has more smarts than the PWT

[Al]

There are No Cull and Slot laws in some states too....so what effect does the "regular" limit have to do with other states? Most tournaments and circuits have a line in the rules that say "contestant shall not violate any local game laws or waterway laws". That pretty much covers that.

[sevenmmm]

Ha! Can't win the debate so you resort to name calling?

Advertising on the tv show is what pays the big awards. You want to handline then go fish the little tournaments!

Very few of the fishing public will go out and leisure fish with a handline. It is only for meat hunters.

Its much like hunting squirrels with a 10 gauge.

[sevenmmm]

They were handlining at Winnebago for the RCL. You sure it is illegal?

And do you think it is more exciting to watch an angler catch a fish with a rod and reel vs a handline?

To me a throbbing fishing rod has much more appeal!

[SUPERTROLLER]

Please notice that the RCL Co-Angler is another guest user and doesn't leave his name on the bottom of the post. Nor does he validate his claim by saying he was fishing with any given Pro so we can verify his story. This is just more unsubstantiated nonsense until we get more facts. As jake stated above, I've had a million cuts from Fireline, maybe we should ban it too.

[SUPERTROLLER]

You've obviously never fished the Detroit River. The average public there includes a large number of handliners. Because you have no knowledge of a method and it's effectiveness, you label them as meat-hunters. There are times this method doesn't produce, just as any other method, otherwise all the tournaments would be won by Handliners. It also doesn't matter by which method a fisherman catches his fish. It is still up to him to decide how many go in the box and how many go back in the water. Every State has limits that are set according to the impact on that body of water. I don't care how many a guy keeps as long as he doesn't break the law.

[DeepVHull]

If you don't like the rules of the tournament (PWT, RCL, or any other tournament), then don't fish in it. They can make any rule they want (within the boundaries of the law of course). It's their tournament. Nobody is forcing you to fish in it.

Why don't you start up your own Walleye fishing tournament trail, make and put into place the rules you see fit, then quit your b*%$*#!

[Juls_OH]

Bobby,
You're wrong on that one. Handlining IS legal in Wisconsin. Read the regulations booklet again buddy.
Let me know what rule it is you're referring to that makes you think it isn't allowed.

Jeff Berg,
I can't believe you made the statement about the wounds...I have been handlining for two 1/2 years now, and I don't have a mark on my hands from handlining, nor have I suffered any wounds or cuts while handlining. I get more cuts from handling fish, than from pulling wire.

Juls

[Eyecrosser]

Is the PWT really that shabby? I have no expirence with either circuit. It just seems like the PWT is very popular, I didn't realize there was so much animousity between the two. Any particular reason? Just courious.

[Neutral Angler]

One thing that's not really being looked at by us is the sportsmanship or lack of when a tournament angler decides to bend the rules and run 4 lures, easily I might add, and then possibly 5 if he is accomplished???? enough?????

[Mother]

Troops

There is no MONEY in it ! No major 'cool' sponsor to fork over
cash for a banner/tv-comm./radio spot... etc
Eliminate a productive system, not a cool enough TV/spectator
method of catching and landing a fish. MARKETING - perception is
reality.
We don't get to see an angler holding a big-money
sponsered rod/reel watching the high dollar Hi-vis above water line
but, nearly disappears below water for a 'tick/tap' only to see
the movement and then the ensueing hook-set -insert HI-Buck lure
sponser name here- and run around the HUGE MONEY boat(sponser)
then up and over the BIGGER MONEY(sponser)motor finally ending up in
the bow quickly using the BIG MONEY(sponser) T.M. to manuever
the boat away from possible disaster-weeds/rocks or shallows.
The fish now at boatside after the epic battle must now be landed
by the NICE MONEY(sponser) net.

Epitath for Handlines - Marketing cut the handline

Mother

[Big C.]

Tim Minnema and many other used handlining during the RCL tourney at Winnebago.

[jake]

just received an e-mail reply from sonny renolds at rcl concerning the handline issue.We appreciate your comments and thoughts.
"Nothing is written in stone at this time on this issue."
you can read between the lines if you want to, but i don't think they are planing any changes.

[Juls_OH]

Mother,
I disagree with you. I have personally been on two shows that showed me handlining, and I have also talked about handlining on a radio show. If there was no interest in this old, but relatively new to the masses, technique...why would they spend the money on showing it, or talking about it? Because its fun! It can be done by anyone who is willing to learn it. Its less expensive to set up than purchasing a high end rod and reel combo. And, in river/current situations it is really effective. Just because someone handlines, it doesn't mean that that is the only way they will fish. Tournament anglers are about the most versatile anglers on the planet, due to the fact, that they must be able to adapt to changing conditions/presentations to be competitive.

The only thing missing in your version of sponsors while handlining is the rod. Handlining uses a reel, so basically what you're saying is that a rod sponsor is the almighty, and should be the only way to present a technique. That's shallow in my opinion.

If you don't like it then don't do it, but don't tell those of us who enjoy it that we can't use it. If its legal let us use it. I don't want to see it outlawed just because someone doesn't like it. That wouldn't be fair either. If we don't get filmed while fishing a tournament because the directors want to please the sponsors, then so beit, don't film us....we're not there to be on tv anyway, we're there to win.

There's plenty of people fising with rods for the directors to film if they don't want us in it, but if you want my opinion, its bad business to exclude us.

Juls

[perchjerker]

Just for anyone interested-

I just spent 6 hours pulling wire on the Detroit River.

Total fish-

1 rock bass

It is no way an easy thing to do, nor are you guaranteed fish like some guys think. Its no easier than any other method.

Hope you guys who are "above meat fishing" are laughing at me!!!

So be it, I still had fun.

[perchjerker]

Thanks for getting into the discussion, Juls. I knew you would once you caught wind of it.

You have a great way of putting your feelings into words. WC is lucky to have you as a contributor.

[sevenmmm]

Listen bud, my view on handlining won't change. It doesn't look good, and it is to much work. You want to view it as a legimate fish catching method. Fine.

But if a tournament passes the rule not to use it then don't fish in it. I just have to wonder how any tournament has any rules with so many whiners.

Next time you want to publish a personal attack (remember couple messages up?), go to your bathroom and try it out in the mirror first.

[perchjerker]

Wait wait wait. Doesnt "look good"??? what the heck does that mean? Sorry. Using that logic, say I dont like the fact you have a crappy old boat and use an old reel you got in a garage sale. I really dont think you meant that.

And, if its too much work for you, sorry man, we didnt choose that method because it was easy!!!!

[sevenmmm]

IMO handlining looks barbaric to me. But I must say if I draw a pro at the championship who uses it I'll do my best to win as well. Your point rings true enough.

However, the method has no draw to the national fishing audience. How can a bass (substitute any) fisherman identify with it?

Please, before you call me shallow too, I agree it is very effective in the fast current. And it may be the only way to get at them fish. But it looks bad on tv and tv = sponsors = big awards.

So "IF" a tournament bans handlining, don't quit either, just when you leave for a tournament borrow them big reels to a friend in Detroit. He may be gratefull to have them for a few days!

[Todd_NE]

Guess that rules out South Dakota! Home of the cull and slot limit.

Todd

[perchjerker]

Ok, I will agree with you on that. I dont fish any tourneys, so my opinion really isnt that important here.

This thread has about 3 or 4 sub topics that spawned from the first.
Gotta say its been fun watching it grow!!!!

[call'emout]

juls, do you hear of many injuries from handlines? it is apparent that the injuries jeff so accurately described have not effected you. do you think maybe safety is a concern for anyone or is it strictly a problem with novices? very interested in what you have heard.

[Marble Eyes]

I got to learn the Handlining technique this Spring at the RCL. Would I do it on my own? Sure. Matter of fact I have been looking for a couple or reels. All the time, nah. When conditions called for it. YOU BET.

As for it not being sporting, I guess I don't understand how it is any different than Trolling stick baits, or drift fishing using bottom bouncers with a dead stick.

It seems to me that when this kind of thing comes up it is the old, my way is better/harder/more moral that yours. I see it in the Hunting area also. Bow Hunters vs. Rifle/Shotgun hunters. Hound Hunters versus Trappers.

The Antis love it.

As for the Comments against Mark Dorn. I have only met him twice but I personally think they are uncalled for.

Thats my opinion, for what it is worth.

[Juls_OH]

No, I do not think safety is a concern. It is no more dangerous than any other technique out there. Common sense is required, yes, but no more so than in everyday life.

I know of only one injury personally, and that was a fella who had just learned it. He walked through the doors at a rules meeting/registration (I forget where at the moment), and had to walk right by me. He stopped and showed me his cut. It was a deep cut on one of his fingers. After I fussed over his boo boo, I asked how it happend. He told me that he had wrapped the wire around his hand to get it out of a snag. I asked him, "do you think flesh is stronger than 60# wire?" He looked at me knowingly, and laughed. "Yeah, I know, I know, it was a stupid thing to do".
Other than that one though, I don't know of anyone who has been injured from pulling wire.

I can teach a co-angler how to fish with handlines in 15 minutes tops, while some co's can't get the feel of a jig in a whole days fishing. Believe it or not, there are some co's who enter who have never held a fishing pole before! I want my co's to have fun catching fish and participating. I can guarantee they will do that when I teach them handlining. Of course this is only in places where it's called for...in the rivers.
Of all the people I have taught how to handline, there isn't one who didn't like it. They also thought it would be easier than what it actually is. It's not easy to lift and drop a 1 1/4 pound weight all day! It's not easy to stay coordinated enough to stay untangled from the lines. It's no cake walk by any means, but it is an effective way to catch river fish, and it's a bunch of fun!

As for the comments about snagging a lot of fish with this system, that's a bunch of baloney! I snag more fish jigging than I do pulling wire. In fact, I can only recall two fish that were snagged on the handlines, and I've caught a lot of fish with this system! Those are very good odds in my book.

Juls

[Juls_OH]

Rick,
Why would a bass fisherman want to identify with anything a walleye fisherman does? Its two different worlds. Now, would you agree that a walleye fisherman would be interested in a technique that he doesn't know about that will help him catch fish? I think so.
If you could see all the emails I get asking me about handlining, I think you would change your mind. There is interest in it, it's just not that public....yet. We're working on that.

Just look at how far it's come in just two years! Eric Olsen and Jason Pszrkurat won the MWC championship handlining the Miss. River at Red Wing. Last year at Spring Valley there were 7 teams that handlined. This year at Spring Valley, there were close to 25 teams that handlined. People are interested. They see it working and want to try it.
It's been written about in In-Fisherman's Walleye Insider, and the NAFC's magazine. Very popular publications wouldn't you agree? Why would they write about it, if there wasn't any interest?

Just a thought. I don't expect anyone to agree with me...we're not going to win any battles on this forum anyway. But, no one is going to change my mind about the value of this technique.

I understand your points, but I don't agree with them. I can agree to disagree, because I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

Have a great day!
Juls

[JNL]

Juls, as your sponsor Mr Chairman if he has ever been cut up by handlining????? I also don't think Chairman would like to have so many people try to tell him how to run his business????

[Juls_OH]

He taught me how to handline and never told me about any injuries, he also never suffered any while fishing with me.

Who, by the way, is telling him how to run his business? I hope you're not referring to me...you're way off base if you are.

Juls

[TK_551]

And how is that different from trolling four lines with boards?

Tom
#551

[really]

A million cuts? Wow.

[sevenmmm]

To answer: because the majority of anglers identify with catching fish with a reel connected to a rod. I think there would be more interest in a national walleye show if they can relate to the method.

There is nothing better to me than a bent rod with a strong fish playing a song on my reel. Can you have that same feeling handlining?

So, back to the rumor! If they banned handlining they would have my full support. Obviously. If they don't, I would have to live with it. Vice Versa.

If you want the last word, ok. But don't ask me any questions!

[Juls_OH]

Well, since you asked me another question...lol

You may get a song in your reel, but I get to hear that song in braile. ;-)

Juls

[JNL]

No Juls not you at all, don't take it wrong. Your #1 in my book. Like someone else said you have a wonderful way of putting thoughts to the paper. Meaning by the way it sounded to me, him trying to tell Mark Dorn how to run his business. Personally I think this whole thread is out of order. Probably going to get worse. Don't think this kind of thread is what this board is all about. I believe a phone call from the beginning would have solved the whole thing. Now it is finger pointing etc and way off base.

[thanksjuls]

excellent post juls, thank you.

[Eyedbpoed]

How would you like it if trolling were disallowed? Same thing. It is a technique. No more, no less.
Bruce stands to lose money because of this. He has every right to be dismayed.
This is not a good thing.

[Neutral Angler]

With most local and statelaws the number of hooks and rods (lines) is regulated. Often to as little as one lure with so many hooks or lures per line. Boards with a double lure setup per line, will give you 4 lures on 2 lines in most states. Handlining enables multiple sets and to take the word of a anglers with money in their eyes that they are within legal limits is absurd I know of guy's that use 5 most the time and have been known to run six with the help of another angler. In a tournament that basically means 12 lures to guy's in an area where due to water narrowing down (rivers) not only illegal but yes effective. Explained to me by an original handliner. "7 lures was a bit of a pain" No lie! 14 to 21 treble hooks per line. Now that's going to bring out the best in tournament fishing.

[Jeff Berg]

Boy, you can miss a lot in a couple of days...

First off, I have handlined and feel it is an effective way to catch fish. I would be disappointed if it were ruled illegal.

Perhaps I was off base when suggesting that it's a safety issue. I met a guy in the Trenton bait shop that was missing the tip of a finger. He told me that he lost it handlining and that has happened to others as well. Maybe he was pulling my leg but I believed him and could see how it could happen when using bare wire.

[downriverbob]

This is third posting, previously I have asked the anti-handliners to explain to me why they are so much against this method of fishing. First there was the danger factor that was pretty much dispelled, then they state it doesn't look good on TV. That to me is not a valid reason to not allow it in tournament fishing. I'm a handliner, have been since I was 12 years old and am 48 now. I don't handline all the time, I have fly fished for trout, steelhead, and salmon. I have caught tarpon in Costa Rica over 100 lbs on 20 lb line. I have casted lures for bass, pike, musky, etc. and trolled for salmon, trout, walleye, tuna, wahoo, and bill fish. I plain like to fish, and as someone stated earlier all fisherman need to stick together, walleye fisherman don't like musky fisherman, fly fisherman look down on live bait fisherman, and it continues from there. We need to support the brotherhood of anglers, not snipe at each other. There are obviously area where handlining would not be utilized in tournaments. It is not a sure fire method, if it was you would only see handliners in the Trenton Channel in the spring. Everyone has their own method that they prefer, that they have confidence doing and in most cases these methods will provide fish for them. Let's quit worrying about the other guy and what he is doing.

[Hey]

Not slamin you Jeff, but there is a lots of stoopid peeple out dere. I don't see a cry to ban snowblowers and every season, several mowrons gets they hands all mangledeed up by trying to pull rope, cords, bags etc out of a jammed snow blower while it is running. The new machines all die when you let go of the handle etc. But the injuries still keep comin. I have several friends that are Law Enforcement, Fire fighters and EMT's. Lots of yard equipment with saftey levers all a tied back. So if someone has a momentary lapse of sanity, and wraps 60 lb steel around a bare or cotton gloved hand. well, you know what will happen next. Some Doctor gets to make another car payment off ya.

[Deano]

They switch co-anglers every day. Do you think a Pro would risk his reputation on some unknown co-angler turning him in for cheating. By changing partners every day they keep it from becoming a team event for the whole tournament where they could cheat to help the same partner every day. Those Pro's have too much to lose if they get caught cheating.

Those everyday poachers you are referring to are no different than someone shooting a deer out of season or at night. It's illegal.