Carter's Catch @ Release Idea Is Still Alive!!!

[BRIAN/CO]

They say that their's no catch and release (only) lake's for walleye in north america.If that's true, then there's no better time than now to fight for our first!
Carter lake is located on the west side of I-25 between Berthoud and Loveland Colorado.The lake is about 1140 acres big,has mostly rock and sand bottom, and reaches a maximum depth of 160 feet when full.
This reservoir was first stocked with walleye in 1977,the primary reason for this stocking was to create a better balance of preadater/prey.The lake has since has been stocked only once, in 1999 with 13,000 1-2 inch fingerling's
The walleye's at carter have sustained themselve's through limited natural reproduction, and very little fishing pressure.The majority of carter's walleye's are large males and females.
The fisherie's biologist that created carter lake,Randy VanBuren,say's that the walleyes size,at carter lake,are above the colorado average, and the male's are of world class size!(up to 10 pound's).
The whole state of colorado is expierencing current drought conditions,and many of our reservoir's are dried up or unaccessable to us. Since this has happened, carter lake has received alot more fishing pressure, and carter's walleye's are being harvested more and more!
Last night i sat down with Bob Todd,a concerned angler, and the man behind this proposal, to get more imformation on why we need to fight for this regulation!
One of the main reason's for this proposal, is to ensureus that colorado reaches their egg take during the spawn!Carter lake has been used in the past by the D.O.W. to reach their egg take during the spawn.It's usually one of our last lakes to spawn out, because of it's location and deep water
Our primary spawn lakes all spawn out before carter does,and if we dont reach our quota,where would we go to reach that quota? Carter seems logical to me? But if we dont protect these fish now! Forget it!
By enacting this regulation now,we could bank some fish for the future, and create a unique oppertunity for us angler's to catch and release some quality fish.
There's a chance that the D.O.W. might offer us a slot limit(1 fish in posession that must be over 27-28 inches)Since the majority of the walleyes at carter are big, and these are the fish were trying to save, i dont think that is gonna work.
The biologist for carter, estimated that the life expectancy for the walleye at carter is 15-20 years, he also thinks that they reach 28 inches in about 8-10 years.Why should we harvest these fish at 28 inches when we can get another 5-10 years of productivity from these fish through angling oppertunity and spawn take!
The final decision on this matter will happen in march 2003!!! We need your support!!!If your for this proposal call our wildlife comissioner and LET HIM KNOW!!. I will try to answer any questions on this matter! This is a win win situation for us all.





Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!!

[SUPERTROLLER]

You are incorrect. Winslow Lake in Mi. is a catch and release Walleye lake. All other species are harvestable. There are probably others in other States also.

I also feel your comments about keeping 1 fish over 28 inches is unwarranted. That is the regulation in Little Bay de Noc (actually 24" I think) and it doesn't seem to hurt that fishery. Walleye are cannibalistic anyways. If they are hungry, they'll eat whatever baitfish is available. If there are more walleye fry there, they get eaten.

[Muleskinner]

Brian is right on this one. As for Little Bay Denoc it's about 100 times the size of this pond. The Walleye in carter will not be there if the current trend of keeping the big girls keeps up. I vote for C&R all the way. Lets get together on this and hound the DOW so we can have some walleye in this state.

Kevin Herbert

[Steve CO]

I agree. I was disappointed at the commission's decision but we can still apply pressure. The problem in Colorado is that there has always been a harvest mentality for all gamefish. Some "sportsmen's" groups have consistently fought any special harvest regulations for trout or other species. The Colorado Walleye Association needs to get behind this and individuals as well. If someone will post the name, address etc. of the pertinent people to contact, that would help.

[collie]

Steve, as Brian will agree it is not a "Done Deal", we need to rally and make our voices heard. The idea of "Banking" is paramount. Collie

[Neal/CO]

I am all for it of course! It only makes sense!

Can't they protect the fishery by also stocking say 5000 fingerlings a year or every other year? Then if it looks like there are to many eye's, you just don't stock them for a year or two?

[collie]

The biologist in charge has it fine tuned and doesnt want to tinker with it too much. Collie

[MLD]

Aside from the subject, if anyone has the urge to get their boat out Carter is still wide open water with courtesy docks in place, I was up there Sunday breaking in my motor. Great idea making it C&R.

Mike

[BRIAN/CO]

Supertroller,

We were told by the wildlife commission that there weren't any catch @ release only lakes in north america, and they didn't feel like colorado needed one. Im glad that you know of one. Im sure that there's more out there. Anyone that knows of any , let me know where.We will contact their fisheries bioligists and get their feeling on the lakes current results,and their feeling on the regulation of catch @ release.



Please Practice Selective Harvest !!!!

[BRIAN/CO]

Kevin,

Your right about the difference in size , were talking acres! Plus, our current drought condition's, and the lack of fish being stocked to replace the ones that are harvested. This lake has limited natural reproduction, very few lakes in colorado have even that. talk to ya soon, and thank's for your support.






Please Practice Selective Harvest !!!!

[BRIAN/CO]

Neal,

Collie is right about the balance of the lake, the bioligist would rather not see his walleyes go, they create an important balance to the lake.If more people would be happy with a picture, all lakes would benefit! Even on kodak paper, it's less expensive than a mount, plus everyone can enjoy that same fish later!







Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!!

[BRIAN/CO]

Collie,
Thanks for your support, we will get this reg passed. You know alot about carter lake ,so feel free to answer any questions also. talk to you later when i hear more.









Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!!

[Neal/CO]

You guys are missing my whole point! I want to see total catch and release! I am just saying if we don't get this regulation, (and we won't) the DOW should not allow the fishery to disappear? They could very easily add some fingerlings to mix every once in a while.

[BRIAN/CO]

Steve,
Like collie said , this matter is not dead! I will discuss this matter at the next C.W.A. board meeting on the 21st of this month. I contacted our presedent on this matter,and it was suggested that we discuss this before pledging support. Most people in the club may not be aware of this proposal. once we talk about it though im sure we will have the clubs full support. THIS PROPOSAL IS A WIN WIN SITUATION FOR EVERYBODY!!! I am the north chapter director for the C.W.A. and everyone i know up here thinks it's a great idea. Anyone can contact me at bgrwest@ aol.com or call me at (970) 587-2829




Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!!

[BRIAN/CO]

Mike,
Your right about the lake being wide open,right now they are filling it. Went up there last wednesday night,mainly to take the boat out ,didnt catch any fish though.It was a nice night for janurary. I was never able to do that in minnesota.Good luck with the new rig! what did ya get?






Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!!

[BRIAN/CO]

Neal,
If we lose these fish from the system now,it would take some time before the stocked fish would be useful to us for spawn take.We are in a drought now,so we want to ensure ourselves that we can meet our egg quotas during the spawn.Who knows, they may need those eggs this spring. If this reg doesnt pass, the lake will be gone in 1 to 2 year's. This would be a great oppertunity to ensure coloradans that there will be walleyes for tomorrow! If this comes down to the point of periodic stocking, then thats what we will have to do, but the lake wont be the same, and the reason behind this proposal wont matter, because all our brood fish will be gone.



Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!!

[Neal/CO]

Let's hope the DOW actually listens to you guys!! Who can we email to voice our opinion?

[SUPERTROLLER]

Looks like I had a case of brainlock when I read your original post. The size of your reservoir is quite small and it didn't register that I had even read that. I was picturing a huge reservoir that was many many miles long. Obviously, this is not the case. It probably won't take much harvest to impact on your reproduction ratein this lake. My apologies. Hope you are able to try something new in Colorado. Winslow Lake is in the U.P. in Iron County. Questions can be asked to the Crystal Falls district office, they are the closest.

[collie]

Bump.

[Slotfish]

I don't believe that it is a very good idea to have a catch & release program for Carter Lake. First of all, the predator prey ratio will become scewed to the point that the walleyes overall health will decrease. It was very evident in the case of Horsetooth Reservoir when the smelt population crashed. People should not believe that if you stop all the harvesting of a top predator species the quality of the fishery will increase.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that regulations need to be imposed (slot limits, reduced limits, restricted fishing times, etc.)in order to maintain a quality fishery, but no harvest IS NOT THE ANSWER. Just remember every angler not just catch and release fisherman pays the CDOW to manage our fisheries.

Just my two cents worth.

[Kevin B]

C & R? Good idea. Then I can fish Carter for fun, while everyone else in Denver can go to Wyoming and stock their freezer on walleyes from Glendo, Seminoe, and Keyhole.

[collie]

The DOW putting the ever popular Wiper in Horsetooth was a component in the smelt crash. Too many teeth not enough stew. May be its time we started thinking beyond the scope of the deep freezer. We pay a ##### of a lot of money in licenses fees in this state in comparision to other states, I for one would like to see it used on banking something for the future. Its not that I want some "Yuppie" elitist honey hole, its about the resource which could supply fish to be stocked through out the state.

[BRIAN/CO]

Slotfish,

This proposal is about SAVING OUR BROODFISH so we will have fish for tomorrow! Carters quality of fishing is just fine right now. I agree every angler has a right to these fish,but by banking THESE fish , were ensuring our anglers that we have fish for tomorrow. The system has maintained a very good balance through natural reproduction, and very little fishing pressure. You mentioned your belief of imposing regs in order to maintain a quality fishery, CATCH AND RELEASE is the only way to go here. It could be the start of better things to come, and better fishing for Colorado in the future. You gotta start somewhere, and hopefully this is the right thing. Reg changes come up in the year 2005. If its not working, then we can make changes. What do we have to lose.

Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!

[Mike(Co)]

Brian
Many places in Canadian provinces are strictly catch and release only for Eyes and Northerns. They know how to generate revenue from fishing, its with QUALITY fish, also I know Red Lake in Minn. as well as others in Wisconsin are 100% catch and release for Eyes. I love to eat Walleyes but if I didn't keep another one in Co. EVER I wouldn't care! I am tired of dragging my boat 300 miles or more to look at big fish!
Let me know what I can do to help! I have Robin Knox’s e-mail add if you want me to post it he is on the commission.

Good fishing!
Mike

[slotfish]

Brian,
I wish you would have read my message completely. I do agree that we must preserve our fisheries now in order to have them for tomorrow. That is why I suggested a few management ideas like slot limits, restricted fishing times and reduced limits, that is just to name a few. Carter to date has not been one of the larger assets to the Colorado fisheries program like Bonney, Cherry Creek, and Pueblo. If we stop all harvest at Carter lake, we probably should stop harvesting fish from Chatfield, Cherry Creek, and others that do support large fish as well. That way we can ensure that the Colorado walleye egg program will never fall into a slump. Walleyes are a renewable resource and through proper fisheries management everybody can be happy. I strongly believe in selective harvest of all walleyes and I hate to see any walleyes over 20" get harvested anywhere, meaning I do not keep any walleyes over 20". Fisheries management is an extremely difficult and tricky task and more research should be done before decisions are made.

Slotfish

[Steve CO]

Collie
I want to raise a question about your Horsetooth comments. I wonder whether the planting of wiper there had anything to do with the smelt crash. Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but my understanding is that smelt crashes of this nature are typical of smelt in smaller inland lakes. Smelt are canabalistic and when their population gets too high (and it really peaked for a while in Horsetooth), there just isn't enough food for them or their spawn and they gobble up their own spawn to boot, causing the crash. This goes in cycles and is not related to overabundance of higher predators; perhaps just the opposite.
Maybe my understanding is wrong. I always caught 20-30 walleye to every wiper at Horesetooth. Since this might be buried in the Carter thread, I will also post it in the general discussion section if we don't get a good answer as it is an interesting question.
Steve

[Kevin B]

Initiating C & R in order to utilize Carter Lake as a fish hatchery? Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction to the drought. Doesn't sound like an idea that the DOW came up with. I trust the knowledge and expertise of the DOW more than a bait shop owner's.
Eggs can be purchased, traded, and borrowed from other DNRs. Same goes for fingerlings. For example, trout in Navajo Lake (a Colorado fishery) do not reproduce naturally. Yet, it is one of the BEST trout fisheries in the United States. Most of the eggs are purchased. Some from far away places, like overseas.
The crisis is not fish eggs. It's water. Research regarding fish reproduction/population shows that. If the drought continues, and it looks like it will, all the eggs in the world are for naught.
Carter isn't the problem. It isn't the solution.

[Just Hold Your Horses]

Walleyes are not natural to Colorado or most slimers for the most part. So what's the big deal. The problem at Carter I hear through the grapvine is that people that fish at Carter at night are keeping the larger fish. So put a slot limit in or lower the limit all together. Thank goodness Coloardo DOW didn't stock saugeyes in this state first no one would have anything to whine about. There are fishermen and then there are fishermen who would like to eat one in a while. Carter is not the only lake that is a brood lake.

[Mike(Co)]

Hold Your Horses

The problem is many of us would like to preserve a small recource that seems to be in balance. This is a small lake and now the cats out of the bag. With the amount of good fisherman we have on the front range now... well you should get the picture. If you don't, then just try to catch ONE large Walleye in Co. this year. Then you will understand. I agree if you want to eat one go catch a 16" Saugeye if you can find one of those. Walleye especilly large ones are a valuable recreational recource in any state and should Not be considered a food source or we will always be chasing 14" fish!

Good fishing!
Mike

[collie]

Steve, smelt cycles are well documented and there is also predation of young walleye fry from smelt fry due to the smelt spawning earlier and the competition between the two young of the year species for photoplankton and zooplankton. The fact that the state put another predator species in a system with smelt as forage, leads me to wonder if they (wipers) did have some significant effect on the forage. There was an article in one of the last CWA published news letters from a couple of biologists about Horsetooth and the smelt/walleye cycle. This thread has not gone the way I thought it might, thats too bad. I could go on, but I think some minds are made up and it will probably just get me in trouble.

[BRIAN/CO]

Slot Fish


Carter has not been needed yet but it is a very large asset to all of us, if its shut down to harvest. If we fail to get enough spawn from our primary brood lakes, we still have time to set nets and strip walleyes of their eggs/milk at carter. Walleyes at carter spawn later then the others. I dont think carter is managed with a lot of harvest expected, and as mike said the cats out of the bag! We need to act fast! Cherry Creek was stocked with 2,500,000 fry 0.2" long in 2002, Bonny got 4,000,000 and Pueblo got 12,000,000, just last year! They are managed with harvest in mind. Carter recived no walleye at all. Your right about management being a difficult and tricky task, but when the biologist that created this system, thinks its a good idea, then research has been done. Thanks for your support in selective harvest slot fish, I feel the same way, but also like to eat walleyes too.



Please Practice Selective Harvest

[BRIAN/CO]

Kevin B



That bait shop owner has been involved with and supported the DOW for many, many years. He has done more with the DOW than anyone I know, when you run a bait shop for a living you get a feel for what kind of pressure local lakes are recieving. Carter wont withstand current fishing pressure very long, why should we add another expence to the DOW`s budget by buying eggs when we have them right here. Why can`t we set 1 lake aside for brood fish as insurance for our future, with carter we dont have to BUY, BORROW OR TRADE! As for a knee jerk idea, I would hope our DOW listens to the public ideas, OUR VOICE COUNTS!


Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!

[BRIAN/CO]

Mike,

Thank's for your support,your right about canada,s ability to generate revenew through quality fishing.Most people i know would drive farther and spend more money for a realistic chance at a quality fish. If you know the names of the lakes that are catch and release only in wisconson, let me know. We will inquire about the current results of the reg,and why they applied it to the lake.If you know the county their in ,that would help too. Robin has already been contacted on this matter,we may need to call him again though, so i'll keep ya posted. Red lake is already on the list for catch and release, it's main problem was over harvest too.

Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!

[BRIAN/CO]

Collie,
The fight has just began!We have alot of support on this issue. Alot more than people think! We know it's the right thing to do.Some people refuse to except change, even if it's gonna benefit them!

Pleasr Practice Selective Harvest!!!

[Sportdog]

I don't profess to be a fisheries "expert", but based on this thread at least some of these people aren't either. What credentials do you base your fisheries knowledge on that you seem to be more in tune with what the state fisheries department should do? Like I said, I'm no expert in this field and because of that fact the voters in Michigan where I live passed a successful ballot issue to take issues like this out of the political arena and to trust these decisions to the Department of Natural Resources. I can't speak for the other anglers in Michigan but I think that our DNR does a great job. This is not to say that I believe our voices as anglers should not be listened to but in the end I believe that the decisions made by the fisheries department are the best and should be respected. Just my two cents.

[Mike(Co)]

With no disrespect... If we had the water in Colorado that you have in Michigan I would agree. But we have have had a huge influx of sportsman to the front range of Colorado with no conservitave changes to Regs. So we would like to reserve this lake to catch and release to preserve a delicate balance that has been established. So it is more important than ever to stress catch and release. We litterally have more fisherman than fish in this instance.

Good fishing!
Mike

[Sportdog]

No problem Mike. It sounds like you have a special problem going on out there and I sure didn't mean to sound like a "know it all". I guess that I was just expressing my confidence in our Michigan DNR. We also have a tremendous amount of fishing pressure around my home in southwest Michigan. It sure makes you wonder about all the statistics that are being published about decreasing fishing license sales. Best of luck with your situation and Good Fishing!

[Kevin B]

Brian/CO
I don't know why you don't register on this forum. Especially since you are vested in this matter.
But I'll address your response.

You wrote: "That bait shop owner [Bob Todd] has been involved with and supported the DOW for many, many years. He has done more with the DOW than anyone I know."
It is glaringly obvious that bait shops and DOWs have a symbiotic relationship. One of my best friends owns and operates a bait shop. He is acutely aware of what's going on with both the DOW and the Parks & Recreation Department. Everyone must eek out an income somehow. But it is in "that bait shop owners" best financial interest to ensure a steady, continuos flow of customers. If use of Carter Lake decreases, so does the cash flow of the nearest bait shop. Let's not ignore that fact.

You wrote: "When you run a bait shop for a living you get a feel for what kind of fishing pressure local lakes are receiving." This is true. As a bait shop owner, your cash register tells you how much usage the local lakes are getting. Additionally, I'll bet everyone who fished at Carter this year noticed the increase in usage.

You wrote: "Carter won't withstand current fishing pressure very long." This is true, but Carter does not stand alone in increased usage. With this drought, many lakes have all but dried up completely (and some have dried up completely). So, only naturally, the fishing pressure at lakes with water and usable boat ramps increased. You must also remember that nearby Horsetooth Reservoir has been under repair for over a year and many people who would normally utilize Horsetooth are now utilizing the nearest, neighboring, Larimer County lake - - Carter. Lots of folks at Horsetooth had to remove their boats from the lake. I doubt that they just parked them for the year. (Brian, maybe I just stumbled onto an answer for lakes that are receiving too much fishing pressure in the Denver area. Remove all the boat ramps. Fishing pressure will definitely decline. There are lakes in SW Colorado that have done just that).

You wrote: "Why should we add another expence to the DOW's budget by buying eggs when we have them right here." It is possible that buying or trading eggs with another state's DNR might be cost efficient. (In trading eggs, it is not an apples for apples trade. For example, South Dakota might trade walleye eggs to Colorado in exchange for rainbow trout fingerlings or fry. Pennsylvania might trade rainbow trout eggs to Wyoming in exchange for some breeding stock elk). A cost-benefit analysis could be used for determination of effectiveness. And let's not forget that utilizing Carter as a fish hatchery would have its own costs involved.

You wrote: "Why can't we set aside 1 lake for brood fish as insurance for the future, with carter we dont have to BUY, BORROW OR TRADE!" Let me take your argument further, one step at a time. Since the DOW must purchase eggs for Navajo Lake, why not make Vallecito Lake C&R for rainbow trout. We'll make Vallecito an in-state trout hatchery. And Stagecoach Reservoir is chockablock full of northern pike. So, we could make it C&R only for northern pike. That way we could strip the eggs from northerns at Stagecoach and ship them to Vallecito (which does have fair pike fishing already, especially in the spring). And, while we're at it, I think John Martin should be C&R only. That way we could use John Martin for our crappie hatchery. Well heck, let's just make the whole state Catch & Release and then we won't even have need for this discussion.

You wrote: "I hope our DOW listens to the public ideas, OUR VOICE COUNTS!" I sure do hope they listen. But I want them to listen to both sides of the story. Because there are a lot of people who oppose making Carter Lake a catch & release fishery. I think the DOW already knows that.

My point here is not to slam Brian, whomever he is. C&R fishing has an immediate emotional appeal. But the argument for C&R fishing is specious. I hope I have cast at least some notion of concern upon a knee-jerk reaction (to the drought) for fisherman.

[BRIAN/CO]

Kevin B,

Your right!,I should register on walleye central,I do intend to. If you need to know more about me, I stated in one of my previous post's, my e-mail @ home #.

If Bob was looking at the financial aspect of carter lake, he would have imformed his customer's of the lake's potential a long time ago. Carter has been a quality fishery for a long time now! He is concerned about the possability of over harvest, like myself. The last thing he is concerned about, is making money from it! You obviously dont know Bob!

All of our lakes have received more fishing pressure ( if they are accessable) because of the drought. But this reg will not prevent anyone from enjoying the lake by boating and fishing, you can catch walleye's til your arm falls off at Carter,you just wouldn't be able to keep them. Were not trying to minimize fishing pressure, were trying to stop the harvest pressure. You can enjoy a day of fishing without bringing home some meat!

I have offered reason's on why i think this proposal would be a great idea for Colorado, what are your reasons for being against this issue? Everyone has a right to their own opinion, I would like to know yours?



Please Practice Selective Harvest!!!

[BUMP]

BUMP