Spin Doctors and the real winner?

[Something to think about...when you are thumping!]

This is a news clip from the MPLS Star Tribune Editorial Page. 11/28/00. Take it for what its worth, but realize that no one has ALL the facts when it comes to this election and it is clear by this article that the pot AND kettle are black. For the record, I voted for Bush and cannot get overly excited about the direction this election took both before or after the ballots were cast. To those that say each vote counts, get real and read on. It's time that our votes REALLY counted. I hope that the electoral college is disolved and put 100% of the voting power in the voters hands. IMHO.

AquaMan~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Pressure is mounting on Vice President Al Gore to concede the election and get it over with. Some polls show 60 percent of the American public now thinks Gore should fall on his sword. With due respect to that majority opinion, it is misguided.


Al Gore reaches out to greet supporters gathered outside a local restaurant in Washington, Monday.

Actually, 60 percent isn't an awesome number either, if you start with almost 50 percent of the electorate favoring Bush to begin with. Inevitably there has been some erosion in Gore's support over the last three weeks of uphill struggle. But win or lose, that struggle is worth continuing.

You hear a lot these days about Gore wanting his "umpteenth recount." That is simply spin. The first Florida recount was by machine and was automatic under Florida law; Gore had nothing to do with it. Then he did request a manual recount in three counties, as was his clear right by law.

That's the only recount he has sought. Everything since then has been, basically, a struggle to get those manual recounts completed. The Bush camp did everything it could to slow or thwart the effort. It succeeded, big time; the final Florida vote tally announced Sunday included a manual recount from only one county -- Broward. More than enough votes remain excluded in Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties to change the Florida totals and give Gore the election.

Given the stakes, of course Gore wants to pursue the issue. Moreover, the law is on his side. Gore is not starting over, seeking another umpteenth way to win; he is simply finishing out the process started with his requests for manual recounts.

During the counting and recounting of ballots prior to certification, the Florida courts were severely constrained in what they could do to ensure a fair tally -- in deference to the authority of the Florida secretary of state and state canvassing board.

But once the certification was made, that changed. By law, any unsuccessful candidate, voter or taxpayer may contest the election. One ground for doing that, stipulated in the law, is exclusion of enough legal ballots to change the outcome.

That is what Gore is doing now, and that is what the Florida Supreme Court anticipated he would do when it set the Sunday recount deadline. The court acted as it did not to end this process, but to allow enough time for Gore or others to contest certification.

Now the clock stops; now the secretary of state and the state canvassing board become irrelevant. The ball is totally in the court's court. Florida law says the judge "to whom the contest is presented may fashion such orders as he or she deems necessary to ensure that each allegation in the complaint is investigated, examined or checked, to prevent or correct any alleged wrong, and to provide any relief appropriate under such circumstances."

Gore's efforts to get a fair recount were stymied in the first phase, but they will be more difficult to stymie now. The American people need to continue showing both interest and patience. Ignore the spin and histrionics: The nation has time to let this rational process run its course."

[Goldpig]

Good editorial. I agree with you that the pre and post election escipades are more than disappointing. I differ in opinion when it comes to the electoral college though. This is a perfect instance in which it is doing what it was designed for. Regardless of who wins, it is comforting to know that the voice of smalltown, rural America is weighed equally among large cities. The electoral college also promotes candidates focusing on issues which concern rural America, and thus they spend time campaigning there. If the electoral college were abolished, candidates would spend nearly all of their time campaigning for votes in huge cities.

[Scott]

I'll second Goldpig on the electoral college. I find it ironic that the Democrats call the protest by republicans a "mob". At the same time they (most of them, after the fact) want to disengage the electoral college, which was put in to prevent "mob rule".

I'm ready for this to be over. It's time Al realizes Daddy's dream has not come true. I'm sure he can always go and be a page for Lieberman's office. Barney Frank is notorious for finding things for the congressional pages to do.

[EyeBoy]

Gentlemen;
Well said. Being from Montana, with a whole "three electoral votes," our miniscule popular vote would be worth nothing. We hardly ever see a presidential candidate as it is. I used to be for tossing the EC, but in light of political clout for rural states, I have changed my mind.
Reasoned debate, excellent dialogue.
ON-PLANE!!!TOM

[Bison]

I'll "third" Goldpig on the electoral college. James Madison knew what he was doing.

[MNjimcarp]

thank god for the electoral college.
Bush has clearly won 29 states and should be clearly 30 states soon. hang in there for the good of democracy. bush will rule soon! jim c

[chadk66]

I sincerely hope algore keeps this bunch of malarky up. By the time he is done he will expose himself and the whole democratic party for what they really are. They talk about how united they really are and put on this phony conference call, that even the extreme liberal press seen it and called it for what it was. Has anyone been wondering why we haven't seen or heard from warren christopher or daly for over a week now. Algores henchmen probably took em both to the wood shed for a little woopin, same place Boise is gonna go for screwin up the whole thing for the boys with the supreme court. Soon they'll realize that if they push this thing much farther they're probably all gonna get it for election fraud, after all we all know thats what happened when they quit counting ballots in Miami-Dade. They feared getting busted manipulating an election. This thing is really getting to be pretty funny, just watch whats happening with the liberal press. They're getting so sick and tired of getting pie on the face that even they're forced to start calling a spade a spade. I could go on and on but you get the point.

[jim carpenter]

wow, chad: right on!!!

[cisco]

James Madison and the other Framers sought to protect the people from "we the people." The intent was to nullify popular vote, even tho at the time only male, white, property owner citizens could vote in the general election. As a matter of fact, nine of the 13 original states also had religious qualifications for voting -- and, of course, there were the poll taxes at local levels. The founders did not want "we the people" to elect a President. It had nothing to do with helping Montana (if a founder could have conceived of a Montana) or any other small state.

Remember, too, that even Senators were not elected by "we the people" until 1920.

The Electoral College has long outlived its original intent, and should be filed away with segregation, male-only voting, poll taxes, and all other discriminatory relics.

[Ron]

Without the electoral college, the candidates would never go to the smaller states, much less represent their wishes. Everyone would just hammer on California, New York, Florida and the other "biggies." The founding fathers were infinite in their wisdom - it has served us well over more than two centuries.

[Bison]

> The Electoral College has long outlived its original intent,
> and should be filed away with segregation, male-only voting,
> poll taxes, and all other discriminatory relics.

It's a different world now for sure, but I don't think that's sufficient reason to do away with the EC. Living in MN, my vote for president hasn't counted for years, but I can still can see the benefits of the electoral college and dampening effect it has. I think the issue has come up only because of this unusual situation of a candidate winning the popular vote and losing the electoral vote. Any other year and it wouldn't be an issue.

[Scott]

Another nice result of the Gore all or nothing attitude is that he will begin to cost already elected Democrats some clout. If he continues to kick and scream about not getting a fair shake, the next election will come about and the Democrats on the Hill will pay the price...Keep it up Al , you are doing us all a favor.

[hgf]

Hey Bison, you have Jesse Ventura - he carries more national weight than your few electoral votes. I'm from Iowa, I'll trade you our early caucuses for Jesse. It's boring down here.
One interesting election statistic - Gore won like 700 counties in the U.S., while Bush carried like 2,800 counties, mostly rural. Also, how is it the Arrowhead area in Minnesota went Gore? I figured that was outdoor country with lots of gun loving republicans.

[Marken]

Can you honestly respond that GW would not be doing the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot? Didn't think so. Bush originally wanted ALL the votes counted in New Mexico, California, Michigan, etc. Wonder why not Florida?

[Bison]

> I'm from Iowa, I'll trade you our early caucuses for Jesse.

I'd be willing to trade just about _anything_ for Jesse. How about 4 1/8 oz. jigs and a spool of 6 lb. Trilene?

> Also, how is it the Arrowhead area in Minnesota went Gore?

The economy in north-east MN has never really recovered from the downturn in ore mining two decades ago, and the democratic party was successful in recruiting a large number of voters in the resulting recession.

[cisco]

Yeah, it was lots of fun watching the news of Bush and Gore running back and forth between the Dakotas, plus their trips to Wyoming, Utah, Montana, Alaska, Hawaii, Delaware, Maine, Vermont, and Nevada. The accommodations industries of those states must have been delighted with the brisk campaign business.

The Electoral College plays the big states -- games are in California, New York, Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Illinois -- the states with the numbers. Consider this: a candidate needs a one vote plurality in only 10 states (zero votes in the other 40 + DC) to gain an electoral majority and win the presidency. That's a good system?

[Ya Gotta remember]

We the People are not a Democracy, we are a Representative Republic. You will never see the word Democracy in the Constitution. The Electoral college and our whole system of government was meant to prevent mob rule and be a system of checks and balances. Remember, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And, to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one Nation, under GOD, indivisable, with Liberty and Justice for all." Algore needs to read that again, me thinks. And my Mom thought I was sleeping in Civics 101.

[chadk66]

I think the answer to that is a definite no. When Bush saw that it was gonna be close in Fl. he considered asking for a recount in other states where the margin was extremely close. Note I said a recount, not plural. (recounts). There was also a situation in WI where the democrats bribed homeless and whoever else with cigarettes of all things to go vote for algore. When GW realized this would be something that the people would not favor, he requested not to have them recounted. He has no reason to have florida recounted a 3rd or more times because he is the certified winner. Algore isn't even asking for a complete state recount, only in heavily democratic counties where they can manufacture votes for algore. Bush has the decency not to do the same in heavily republican counties. Also how do the democrats explain the intimidation they have put on several electorates in a couple states where Bush won to vote for algore in the electoral college. And try to explain away why a democrat was runnin around florida with a voter machine in the trunk of his car. I could go on and on but once again I think you get the picture.

[Modification to Electoral College sought]

Here in the Peoples Republic of Minnesota if you vote Republican your vote almost never counts because 2 million of our 4 million residents live within the highly Democratic area within the Twin Cities metro area and almost always nullify the wishes of us God fearing, gun toting, sportspeople types in rural MN. My solution to this unfortunate situation is to divide the electoral votes by congressional district (like Maine does) this would better represent the peoples wishes than the current winner take all format. (it gets a little disheartening going to the polls knowing your vote probably isn't going to count)

[Hawgeye]

I have to respond to this. I have refrained from doing much responding to these political posts but my dander was finally tweeked! First of all, Al Gore is really bending the rules. The courts created the recounts for those who narrowly lost elections. This is really a joke since the counties that Gore requested recounts in were the strongest Liberal counties in the state. Any fool can figure out that if 60% of the votes in that county were for Gore, 60% of the rejected ballots would likely be for Gore; therefore a net gain in votes.

This reminds me of when I was little and my older cousin and I would play cards. I always lost. Not because I was a poorer card player but because he changed the rules to favor his hand. Thank god I don't have to claim Gore as a cousin! By the way, I did get bigger than him, the rules did not change after that and you know what, I won a lot of card games since then :)

[cisco]

"We the people" is a specific reference to popular soverignty -- a concept consistent with democracy. There is nothing republican (note lower case) about the Electoral College. It had ONE purpose -- to let the framers protect us from us. That's elitism beyond contemporary Republicans (note upper case).

The Electoral College needs to be buried with all the other prohibitions used to keep people from voting. (As a matter of interest, Catholics could not vote in New Hampshire until 1868.)

[cisco]

Republicans simply cannot stand the "one man, one vote" doctrine advanced by the Supreme Court in Baker v. Carr (1962). Why can we not let the voters decide an election?

[cisco]

Gore asked for a recount of the whole state -- PLUS the counting of those ballots not yet counted.

[Sparky]

If he wants a "just and fair" counting, why is he so terrified of the military absentee vote? He doesn't mind sending them in harms way while he was in "protective custody" during his military duty. But, he doesn't think that their vote should matter? An interesting "spin" from the Gore camp.

Sparky

[vetspet(ind)]

i worked in both the arrowhead region....virginia mn....and the nwindiana region where unions are solidly democratic voting... basically the unions have always voted where they think their wallets will be best served...i went to a catholic high school and one of my classmates is pete visclosky who is pictured on the front page of our current alumnae magazine...he is the no.1 rubber stamp politician for clinton including any and all laws promoting abortion...how does the catholic church bend their stand on abortion promoting politicians??? he's a democrat...i guess thats all that counts in the steel city nowadays...the irony is that the democrats have pushed for nafta and the current steel situation is very bleak...yet these union guys still vote according to what their union tells them to do instead of thinking it out on their own....it can only be some sort of mindlessness when 90% of the black population and 90%of the union population votes one way only....i am certainly not anti black..nor anti union....but when there is not even a close split in their vote...to me it says a lot about how much thought went into their voting....the truth seems to be that the only real vote splitting that occurs in america is with middle class whites....this may seem racist but when you get down to the bare facts....its the way it is

[Bison]

Gore will be asking for recounts until he gets the numbers he wants.

[chadk66]

well cisco, algore only wanted to count the whole state after it was certified, and only after he had all those military ballots removed. If can't believe you didn't see right through that request. He simply wanted Bush to agree to another complete recount after certification to set president on recounts after certification. Of course Bush's people seen right through it. On your other comment regarding uncounted ballots, there really are no such ballots. All ballots in florida were counted twice. Several were counted a third time by hand. The so called uncounted ballots are ballots that registered no vote for president by both machine and hand recount. He would like to be able to have a manipulation of those ballots made in his favor. There is no court in this land that would allow this and there are absolutely no presidents in the system that will allow for assumptions of intent in ballots of this nature. The Illinois court cases stated by Boise in the supreme court challenge was a fraudulant representation of the case in Illinois in which there will probably be consequences to pay for in the end. If you have any other misunderstandings regarding this let me know I'll try to clear them up for you.

[Scott]

Marken...one thing you need to realize is that Al Gore doens't know the difference between recounts and his push for "do overs" until he gets the bleeping answer he wants. There is a world of difference. Did you ever stop to think that maybe Bush has enough balls to not force those recounts in the other states, and Florida because he let the system work....and not send 75+ lawyers down to Florida the night of the election as was reported Lil Al did?

[cisco]

Why don't you first try to grapple with "president" and precedent? I take my grandkids' observations more seriously.

[cisco]

Why don't you first try to grapple with "president" and precedent? I take my grandkids' observations more seriously.

[FSHLIMO]

Hey Cisco,

You S.O.B.'s that live in glass houses should reconsider your decision to throw stones - I noticed that your mastery of the computer is not the greatest (double post), but I still consider your opinion, although I don't agree with it!

[vetspet(ind)]

that is a cheap shot....one of my most intelligent friends is a poor speller....also it may be just a typo....at any rate it is the thought which we are considering....i see misspelled words all the time on the site..big deal...

[Bison]

Just because he's knot a good speller like you are is know reason to be an a$$ whole! ;-)

Sorry, I tried to resist...

[MIFISH]

I'll second Goldpig, it will be a cold day in Hades when I give John Rocker's people in New York or Baba Striesand's people in CA more more power to elect a president than the rest of the country.

[Sparky]

Contrary to popular opinion, we are a Republic, not a Democracy. It is like saying "We know that you won four out of seven games for the World Series but, the other scored more total runs so they win!". If you look at the number of states won and ezpecially the number of voting districts with the number of voters in those districts it becomes a very different picture. As a Republic, as opposed to mob rule, the elected Federal officials are forced to pay attention to the rural areas of our Nation. If we went to a straight popular vote, our beloved candidates wouldn't even acknowledge their existence. By the way, how "fair" is it to change the standard for a valid vote cast after the contest is over just because you didn't like the outcome? How would you like to be in a tournament and find out that they extended the weigh-in time for a popular pro just because he was close to making the weigh-in? And by the way, the bait fish in the tank have to be stuffed back in the mouth of his fish because it's intention was to be a bit heavier. Fairness has nothing to do with the litigation going on in Florida. It's called fraud and misrepresentation of case law to rewrite the outcome. We have had eight years of it so I didn't expect anything better.

Sparky

[cisco]

Read his before you call mine a "cheap shot." Also, if it is a typo, how come it is repeated?

[FSHLIMO]

Well said, Sparky!