Do fish become conditioned

[Sunshine]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-00 AT 02:52PM (CST)[p]Do fish become conditioned to lures? Do they start to avoid lures that are presented to them over and over again. Here are my thoughts? what do you think?

Fish are too ignorant to recognize danger unless they become conditioned to the danger. This can happen different ways including being caught by a particular lure and method and then avoiding that technique for periods of time until they forget again. They can also sense danger by seeing members of their school disappear or behave suspiciously because of fishing activity (being caught and/or released).

I believe that there are three reasons why we have trends in lures being "hot":

1. Everyone is using the new hot lure. Advertising worked.

2. Fish investigate and attempt to eat something new until they become conditioned.

3. Those fish that are prone to being caught by that particular color or action are caught and removed from the fishery. Eventually only those fish that didn't react positively to that presentation remain. We have all experienced these phenomena but may have not recognized it. At this point, that hot lure loses its appeal to fish and fishermen. Obviously, not every fish is caught by the technique but enough to discourage our use of that lure. Have you ever gone back and started using old proven lures in your box that no one has used for a long time and started catching fish again with them? My belief is that those fish that remained from the original onslaught of that lure have reproduced several times since then and have passed on their genes to the off spring. The next generation has inherited the tendency of attacking your "old" "hot" lure.

What do you think?

[Go_Fish]

Sunshine,

I would have to agree with what you said about fish becoming conditioned sense danger with regards to a lure that has been producing fish. Although, I don't think that it is as cut and dried as you explain it. I would guess that the fish might develop this "conditioned sense of danger" from a type of lure, like rattling lures etc. Which would result in a response to that type of lure. You also refer to the genetics associated with a particular response from a fish with regards to a specific lure. You also state that once the fish are removed the lure doesn't work anymore, until the remaining fish that would respond to it reproduce and the offspring grow to a catchable size. Ahhh...long sentence. I think that your argument is good except for a couple things. You are assuming that the genetics of each fish are the only variable associated with catching fish. I think that there are many more variables associated such as the vast combinations environmental conditions, location and presentation of the lure/bait. It is an age-old argument as to which has more of an effect on the behavior of an organism - Genetics or Environment.

I would like to thank you for posing such an interesting question, and I look forward to reading responses to my gibberish!:)

Happy Holidays!

Go_Fish

[Gabby_SD]

I uhhhh think, no, maybe, well I guess I agree

[BD]

I don't believe that genetics has the effect that you think.

1) The fish see a new lure that looks like an easy meal and the lure becomes "hot";
2) The fish sense the disruption in the school as some are caught (and possably released) and the fish become conitioned to that lure;
3) The "hot" lure is no longer "hot" and ends up in the recesses of your "junk drawer" (extra tackle box);
4) Years later your new "hot" lure isn't so "hot" anymore so you put on one of the "old fashion" lures;
5) The new year classes of fish are not conditioned to that "old" lure and it becomes "hot" again, at least for you that day.

In the areas I fish the Rapala users are amazed that I can catch fish on River Runts etc.

[stewart]

"My belief is that those fish that remained from the original onslaught of that lure have reproduced several times since then and have passed on their genes to the off spring. The next generation has inherited the tendency of attacking your "old" "hot" lure."

I guess so. Learned behaviour is not something that gets passed on genetically.If you have kids you know what I mean ;).

[WAeyes]

I think Stewart is getting close. Genetics are things like color, size, when and where they spawn etc. Saying that a walleye can pass down genes that tells a fish that it can't hit a clown rapala or a green jig or other is just ridiculous. I think that younger fish that aren't caught are "conditioned" from older, smarter fish who have seen or experienced the danger that can be present. Just like in all the animal kingdom, including humans, small fish learn from big older fish or they don't survive.

[minneman]

Right on Stew

[Backwater Eddy]

If by conditioning one would mean a repeatable predictable behavior reinforced by a stimulus to produce a response, I would say nope.

To many environmental variables to pin a off bite on a smart fish.

I would speculate that instinctive reactions triggered by environmental influences is the determining factor to a lures appeal at any given moment.

There has been no evidence that fish contain long term memory, just biological reactions to environmental changes.

Either that, or maybe they just are not hungry?

Good point to ponder, good topic.

Backwater Eddy.....><,>

[Sunshine]

It was stated that "Genetics are things like color, size, when and where they spawn etc. Saying that a walleye can pass down genes that tell a fish that it can't hit a clown rapala or a green jig or other is just ridiculous.

But wouldn't you agree that the traits that are passed down would also include their vision and lateral line sensitivity. And if this were true wouldn't those attributes decide whether a fish sees or senses a particular lure at all?

Fish have to identify that there is something nearby that may be food first. They will use their genetically tailored traits for that. They will sense that it’s there or not there by using what god or mother nature gave them to use. I think that when they go and investigate that food source, conditioning takes over on whether they'll attempt to investigate further by pulling the bait into their mouths.

If by genetics, the vibration that is given off by your rapala does not interest the fish, or simulates a baitfish to them, or stimulates investigation, then genetics had a lot to do with it. If they do investigate, but the clown color is repulsive or impossible to see because of their sight that they were born with, again genetics had a lot to do with it.

[joeblow]

why don't we ask the fish? let's take a poll.

[Dr. Skinner]

I don't think you guys have studied your genetics enough.
My strong feeling without the test data to back me up, is
that you could very well genetically shape a fish that would
reject a clown rapala and my guess is that it could be done
in 12 generations(reproductive generations not year classes).
All you need to do is sort out all the fish that respond the the clown, and breed the survivors. Each generation should show a
decreasing tendency to attack and ingest a clown rapala. You may hit a hardwired base line at some point where the behaviour
refuses to be shaped below that baseline genetically but I'll
bet you see significant changes data wise within 4 generations.
Likewise I would guess that by breeding the fish only that attacked the clown rapala you could also genetically shape a fish
that would have a very high tendency to bite a clown rapala when
compared to the rest of the gene pool. this is not a complicated theory nor would it be a complicated experiment.

[T.G.]

OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH.....BERRRRRRRRROTHER! In my experiment you couldn't get any walleyes to hit a clown rapala. My walleyes hate that color!

[Big Fish]

Page nine of the dec. 22 issue of Outdoor News has an artice written by Lee Kernen,the former WI. fisheries director addressing this subject. According to research done by a Dr.Holder in Key West on gray snapper fed with dyed minnows,not only did the resident fish rapidly learn to avoid the color that was tainted with jellyfish but seemed to be able to pass the info on to strangers who came to the area!!?? Somehow the locals attitude about the tainted color was conveyed to other fish. It wasn't that the color that was tainted didn't look appealing because the local fish tryed eating them at first,but after they found out they didnt tast good even the fish who hadn't tryed them left them alone. Moral of the story is... don't taint your bait.

Good Fishing and Merry Christmas all.
Craig

[BE]

LOL!

YAAAAAA?

:)

[BILL]

I HAVE USED JIGS FOR WALLEYES FOR 25 YEARS AND I DON'T SEE THIS CONDITIONING THING. IN FACT WE HAVE A 18" LIMIT ON WALLEYES AND A 15" LIMIT ON BASS AND IN LATE SUMMER YOU CATCH MANY WALLEYES AND BASS THAT HAVE LOTS OF HOOK HOLE IN THE MOUTH AREAS. I THINK IT'S MORE THE FEED BASE THAT THEY ARE EATING THEN SMARTS. KINDA LIKE CALLING A WILD TURKEY SMART WHEN THEY ARE REALLY JUST SCARED TO DEATH BECAUSE EVERY THING IS TRYING TO EAT THEM.

[Backwater Eddy]

Good point Bill.

[stewart]

I'll agree with Bill that fish aren't smart, but like the turkeys they have to become 'smart' enough to survive.

That fish are dumb, that the natural world is always changeing, may slow down conditioning, but I think it happens to some degree. Probably fish get conditioned faster to things like rattle traps than subtle baits like jigs.

BE wrote,
"I would speculate that instinctive reactions triggered by environmental influences is the determining factor to a lures appeal at any given moment."

True,reflexes to eat/no eat may be hardwired into the fishes makeup(nature), but doesn't the fish also develop instinctive reactions to some extent from experience? Wild trout flee from shadows. Hatchery trout come over to investigate.

I think fishing pressure simply falls under a long list of environmental variables affecting the fish.How importantant a variable, like so many things, just depends.

[Go_Fish]

Dr. Skinner,

I do agree that fish which do not respond to a particular bait, can be selected for. Although, this is possible in a laboratory setting, I do not think it is possible in real life. A fishery can't be described in terms of Mendel's greenhouse or Pavlov's kennel, this is real life and isn't that what we are talking about here? It is practically impossible to eliminate from a fishery all fish that are prone (genetically) to respond to a particular bait. Even if this was accomplished, you said it yourself that it would take 4 - 12 reproductive generations for this behavoir to be expressed. Even I haven't used a single lure for four to twelve seasons! So get out of the lab and get on the water!

Go_Fish